I read in disbelief the latest "community management act" of CCP Falcon. I simply can't comprehend how can someone with this behavior holds a job that doesn't involve mopping the floor and cleaning toilets:
I don't even know where to start. Maybe with mentioning that the players who are referred placed 1488 cans of Reactive Gas in their in-game ships (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7) which makes no sense game-wise so must be a message. It is likely that the number refers to the neo-nazi code and the gas canisters are referring to the Holocaust. Is any game developer forced to tolerate such players? Absolutely not. And everyone would be OK with them being banned. Me too, I told many times that such horrible players - and CCP supporting them - destroy EVE.
But Falcon didn't ban them. He explicitly told that the company will look into it. Yet he already delivered results using his official tag. So will they actually look into it or was the decision already made or what?
Secondly I don't remember hearing "asshat" in a sentence of a criminal or in a letter of immediate termination for an employee. If the 1488 Gas Canisters indeed mean what it seems to, the term is "neo-nazi". Being a neo-nazi isn't a joke or "being edgy". In several countries public nazi-speak is a felony. I believe Falcon wants to defend them by dismissing their nazi propaganda as edgy jokes. They just received a public slap on their wrists and nothing else will happen.
Then - completely inappropriately - he refers to their bad in-game performance as a consequence for their behavior. I seriously doubt that the time needed to buy 1488 Reactive Gas units were missing from their practice sessions. This is - again - aimed to say "look people, they are already punished by karma, case closed, move on!" Or I could rephrase this to "Thread derailed atm. Locking. Read falcons response and chill." Note: decent people don't chill in places where neo-nazis are frequent.
It's extremely unprofessional to publicly deliver "justice" in a case which is not yet closed. Dismissing neo-nazi hate-speech as joke or considering a video game defeat proper punishment for it is pretty obvious defense of such "content creators". So even if they will be banned from the game, CCP Falcon yet again displayed his total unfitness to serve as anything. At the moment of writing this (2016/10/06) the perpetrators have killboard activity, so they are surely not banned yet. Those people who still play EVE will have to suffer more "edgy asshat" messages during their play time.
Finally, here is what he should have been written: "CCP Games has absolutely no tolerance for hate speech in its game. We have tickets about the incident mentioned in this topic and it is investigated properly. We ask for your patience now and - since the act was done publicly - we will inform you about our actions about it after the investigation is done."
PS: my statistics based masteries and items are somewhat effective:
I don't even know where to start. Maybe with mentioning that the players who are referred placed 1488 cans of Reactive Gas in their in-game ships (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7) which makes no sense game-wise so must be a message. It is likely that the number refers to the neo-nazi code and the gas canisters are referring to the Holocaust. Is any game developer forced to tolerate such players? Absolutely not. And everyone would be OK with them being banned. Me too, I told many times that such horrible players - and CCP supporting them - destroy EVE.
But Falcon didn't ban them. He explicitly told that the company will look into it. Yet he already delivered results using his official tag. So will they actually look into it or was the decision already made or what?
Secondly I don't remember hearing "asshat" in a sentence of a criminal or in a letter of immediate termination for an employee. If the 1488 Gas Canisters indeed mean what it seems to, the term is "neo-nazi". Being a neo-nazi isn't a joke or "being edgy". In several countries public nazi-speak is a felony. I believe Falcon wants to defend them by dismissing their nazi propaganda as edgy jokes. They just received a public slap on their wrists and nothing else will happen.
Then - completely inappropriately - he refers to their bad in-game performance as a consequence for their behavior. I seriously doubt that the time needed to buy 1488 Reactive Gas units were missing from their practice sessions. This is - again - aimed to say "look people, they are already punished by karma, case closed, move on!" Or I could rephrase this to "Thread derailed atm. Locking. Read falcons response and chill." Note: decent people don't chill in places where neo-nazis are frequent.
It's extremely unprofessional to publicly deliver "justice" in a case which is not yet closed. Dismissing neo-nazi hate-speech as joke or considering a video game defeat proper punishment for it is pretty obvious defense of such "content creators". So even if they will be banned from the game, CCP Falcon yet again displayed his total unfitness to serve as anything. At the moment of writing this (2016/10/06) the perpetrators have killboard activity, so they are surely not banned yet. Those people who still play EVE will have to suffer more "edgy asshat" messages during their play time.
Finally, here is what he should have been written: "CCP Games has absolutely no tolerance for hate speech in its game. We have tickets about the incident mentioned in this topic and it is investigated properly. We ask for your patience now and - since the act was done publicly - we will inform you about our actions about it after the investigation is done."
PS: my statistics based masteries and items are somewhat effective:
20 comments:
"But Falcon didn't ban them. He explicitly told that the company will look into it. Yet he already delivered results using his official tag. So will they actually look into it or was the decision already made or what?"
He made the response that tickets will be investigated.
I think it is preferable that someone not the community manager makes banning decisions. I also think that companies have a procedure, and his response was to let people know they were aware of it.
"Note: decent people don't chill in places where neo-nazis are frequent."
You sure there are none in any of the games you play? League of Legends is a community full of decent people? And not known for its toxic community?
It was definitely a joke of bad taste, but to say that people have to be banned for this?
I agree that what nazis did back in WW2 was really bad, but why should we be so weak minded that we should not reference or even think about it in modern days?
I really think it is enough to ban people who make real life threats or harassments or RMT. Otherwise stupid people and people with really bad taste in jokes will make game more colorful and will train you mentally to endure more, to train your mind to be stronger, not weaker.
on the one hand, the 1488 gas content can be chucked off as edgy teenagers (hard to really prove the nazi link). humiliate them publicly and laugh about them and done.
but at the same time, have a look at the message + chat log of these people. if there is racism and harassment and propaganda in there? go and ban them on that basis.
Even Nazis have rights to free expression (as long as they are not actually breaking any laws or calling to break any laws).
I am vaguely aware of 1488 being a neonazi banner of sorts, but i'm not aware of any history behind it. As far as i'm (and most people out there) are concerned, this is just some arcane secret handshake nonsense. If some marginalised group of people wants to meet other members of same marginalised group of people through a secret handshake - i say live and let live.
Reacting to this kind of stuff is simply feeding the nazi trolls.
I think the only thing Falcon should have said at this point is "There are many tickets concerning this situation. We are looking into it". No need to say anything about hate speech or anything at this stage.
My issue with what Falcon said is that it is unprofessional and judgemental. He is not the judge of the community, he is a lapdog and should know his place.
@Anon: there is no joke here to laugh at. They didn't build some comedy with a nazi punchline, simply wrote Heil Hitler! to their ships without context. Let me present a nazi JOKE:
Hitler walks on the street with journalists and stops people to chat to increase his popularity. Among the people he stops a little boy with yellow star on his jacket:
- Hello little one, how old are you?
- I'll be 8 in June!
- Just don't get overconfident!
@maxim: a video game is not a place for political self-expression since it disturbs immersion. Even such non-controversial politics like Hillary vs Donald can be and usually forbidden on gaming platforms.
On the other hand, CCP has to be sure that they are indeed neo-nazis instead of edgy shitlords. If that's the latter, a slap on the wrist and a "don't fucking do that again is enough", but if if the former, let the banhammer swing.
If everyone doing cunt jokes on the Internet was banned there would be no one left. Is this a bad thing ? That's another question entirely.
@ Gevlon, now hold your horses... Chill and don't look back! Your EVE times are gone as are mine.
@ Maxim: Neo Nazis having the right to freely express themselves? U wot m8? There are several countries in Europe where denial of the shoa is a criminal offense! Simply showing swastikas, shouting "Heil Hitler" in public will result in criminal charges in my country. And guess what? Rightly so. On the positive side, in my country, ladies can walk around bare breasted and not get arrested, although they might no longer be safe due to Merkel's policy of inviting some folks in that are not compatible with middle European values and lifestyle...
AFAIK only Poland, Russia and Germany have official laws against Nazi symbols and holocaust denial.
If their theories are so ridiculous, why would we want to silence them? let them speak and make their idiocy shine for everyone to see. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, let their full ideology into the view and everyone will realize how stupid and delusional it is.
Freedom of expression is the basis of Western society. It is more important than some teenage idiots. The nazis didn't win the elections in 1933 by having excessive freedom of speech. They won it by suppressing the freedom of speech of their opponents (by literally destroying, assaulting and killing their political opponents, their newspapers and property).
The other countries don't punish neonazis. They are ostracized and ridiculed instead. Which is what we should do here. Are they in TEST? People can chose not to deal with Test until the offenders are removed. Let's see how much they like playing Eve solo.
Punishment by government (or in this case admins) creates martyrs. Punishment by society creates shamed losers. Which one would you rather have?
Given recent data + CCP deciding their future is in virtual reality, EVE will soon be bought by another company who will run it professionally and even make a success again of it perhaps. Until then make yourself unconcerned with it and don't waste brain-CPU on it.
@Naice Rucima
There's no visible difference between neo-nazi and edgy shitlord. Slapping won't teach any of them anyway. But banhammer will teach others.
@Slawomir Chmielewski:
The fact an idea is ridiculous won't stop peoples from following it as long as it's what they want to hear. Even worst, the more they will feel oppressed and ridiculised for their it, the more they will try to spread it.
And sure, Nazi destroyed their opposents freedom of speech once in power, but they acquired that power by spreading their ridiculous ideas in their first place. And because they experienced themself how easy it is to take power by spreading some ridiculous lies as long as it's what peoples want to hear in a democracy, they made sure their opponents couldn't use the same against them once in power.
The terrible truth of humanity is the most ridiculous ideas for some is the absolute truth for others. Just look at the conspirationists, by definition, ether they are wrong and ridiculous, or the main public IS wrong and ridiculous in their understanding of the world. Same came be said for differents religions (not the 3 book religion, but 1 religion of the book vs hinduism or taoism ) / pro-vaccines and anti-vaccines.
Want something closer to the subject, look at ISIS ? How would you feel if they didn't do an act of neo nazis propaganda, but extreme islamism propaganda ?
Are you sure you want them to spread their ideas freely ?
Sure, if you are feeling well, with a balanced life, it won't infect you. But those who spread thoses toxics ideas aren't targeting you, they are targeting vulnerable peoples, not in a social or economic sens, but in a psychological sense. Peoples that are trying to make sens of their life or the world. Peoples that got a lot of anger they can't blame on a clear target, so they provide them a scapegoat, the jews for the nazis or the occident for ISIS.
Ps : You can add France right next to Poland, Russia and Germany.
- I made a post on this on the EVE forums at noon, and by eve it was already entirely deleted...
- Their theories are not ridiculous, they are horrible. So horrible that it's beyond the limit of freedom of speech. Freedom of speech has limits in most countries (e.g. laws against libel, slander and insults, and in Germany where the denial of the holocaust or the violation of the dignity of the murdered victims of the Nazi regime are concerned).
- Freedom of expression is not the only basis of Western society. Dignity, equality, participation (democracy) are others. And a robust stance against all attempts to overthrow these values - they must be defended, and defended they will be. Banning such utterances from a game is one of the ways to take a stance.
- There is no difference regarding a ban if they are stupid shitlords or neo nazis, the deed is what carries the sanction, not the mindset. We do not punish people for thinking wrong, we punish them for doing wrong (and voicing their twisted opinion was "doing" something).
- They are not in TEST. Look it up on the killboard, the info is there.
@Theodora Dunkelmauer
Nazis vandalism and assault happened well before they got the official power. SA was a paramilitary group that was terrorizing their opposition.
When we ban any speech we run the risk of forgetting about those dangerous ideas. We should never forget about Nazism in case some new Hitler arises trying to sway yet another nation. Oh, by the way, we have already forgotten some of it: why are we even talking about "Nazis"? There was no such nation as Nazis, the atrocities of the war were committed by Germans. The public memory has been altered to demonize some fabled "Nazis" and not the Germans.
I don't mind ISIS or other idiots trying to spread their idiocy as long as I can spread my counter-ideas. Free market of ideas is as important as free market of economy. Indeed, let them do it. Let's make a good documentary about ISIS. Let everyone see on their TV how great life is in the caliphate. Let everyone see them beheading children and stoning adulterers (whose sin was not wanting to be sex slaves), let everyone see them sodomizing little boys and raping any non muslim woman they can catch. Let's see how many people will still support them after full disclosure with all the gory details.
Slawomir - there are no laws against studying and discussing Nazi doctrines academically, so there is plenty of sunlight being shone on their ideas.
The problem arises when people attempt to turn those ideas into political reality - and the original rise of Nazism via national elections shows us that even an advanced, enlightened society is not immune to seduction by skilful demagoguery and bold lies. Heck, in a milder form, we are seeing the same thing play out today; this is the age of the conman politician on both sides of the Atlantic.
There are limits on freedom of speech, like the old edge case of 'fire in a crowded theatre' or direct incitement to riot. The promotion of Nazism falls into that category.
@Slawomir Chmielewski
And yet, they managed to get more than 18% vote on a general election. You don't get it without spreading your ideas. If you just shut up opposition, peoples won't suddenly agree with you, they will rebels if you try to force them, or do nothing if nobody fill manage to fill the political void with ideas, what ever they are. Yes, it was a time of violence in Germanie, but also a time of huge well documented political meeting. You don't get that kind of meetings without spreading.
Also, you didn't address the main point, fact peoples don't need ideas to be factuels or intelligents, just to be what they want to hear. Germany walked after the nazis because they wanted revenge for the treaty of Versaille, and didn't want to pay ridiculous war compensation anymore.
>> let everyone see them sodomizing little boys and raping any non muslim woman they can catch
Finally, maybe you would be horrified by that, but here come the hard cruel fact : Some peoples like that idea, dream of it, and want to come back to a society where an adult man can rape who ever he want.
Well, showing your support to Hitler, the Holocaust and several terroristic Attacks seems appropreate in terms of the End User License Agreement?
Nothing new, to someone who knows the german speaking Community in EvE...
How will you know that there is anything wrong with your nice and stable lifestyle if you block the spread of all alternative ideas and don't get the early warning of nazis getting more than single digits on your elections?
Useless trivia: Russia does ban nazi symbolism, but still allows it in historical / documentary context. It has been recently been openly used with no repercussions in some for-profit cinema projects that were trying (and failing) to address some WW2 topics.
Russia does not ban holocaust denial. Denying the Holocaust, however, a very effective way to basically remove your own ability to get taken seriously in any non-marginal russian social circle.
You get to speak your mind and others get to treat you based on what's on your mind. Works better than one would think :)
Anyone who knows anything about Psychotic Tendencies(TISHU) knows that the entire premise of their existence is to trigger people and get attention. Their MO is to constantly test the limits of what they can say/do and see how many people get angry over it. Even talking about banning them for it gets them off. But no one who has actually talked to them thinks they are neo-nazis or racist, the best way to describe how they behave is as "edgy teenagers" (even though I suspect many of them are not teenagers...) but I have to admit having them in voice comms gets annoying at times especially if there are people actually trying to speak seriously. At the end of the day, their game identity is that of "edgy asshats" and if that's how they want to play then that is their right.
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