Greedy Goblin

Thursday, September 22, 2016

The core problem with refugees

You probably heard how the US president candidate Trump campaign see refugees:

You probably know that Sweden - not long ago the feminist utopia - gained the highest rape rate in Europe, with majority of rapist being from the Middle East. You probably know that several violent terrorist attacks happened in Europe in the last year and a some in the US. You might even know that Angela Merkel, the self-proclaimed savior of refugees is losing elections after elections. You most likely don't know that there will be a public vote in Hungary about settling refugees here and polls predict 90% "no".

What you are probably puzzled about is how could we get into this bizarre situation. However answer isn't the program of Trump and his European buddies (spearheaded by Hungarian PM Victor Orbán who already built a barrier on the border getting "you are nazi" from other presidents who soon were voted out by their people). Anyone can become a refugee. There is nothing a single person can do about the whole country turning upside down or a war erupting. Even the most individualist person can see that it's impossible for him to fix a whole country. Telling refugees that "it's your problem" will come back to some of us in this life. It's guaranteed that several safe and fine countries will go hell in the following decades.

The answer comes from realizing that immigration and refugee protection got mixed up despite they are completely different issues. Immigration is about letting people in who are needed and will fit in the country. Refugee protection is about ... protecting refugees from the dangers they ran from. Currently refugees are protected by letting them immigrate without vetting. If one can prove that he is in grave danger at home (and it's not hard if he is from Syria), he can enter the country and live among us, even if he is totally unfit for it, for example don't speak the language, don't have any profession to work and consider women to be mere property of men. Which is true for 80% of the swarm entering Europe.

The proper solution is keeping refugee protection completely separated from immigration. Refugees should be placed to closed camps where they are safe from whatever danger they were running from, get shelter, food and health care. From there they can leave only two ways: if their home becomes safe again and they are going/sent home or if they successfully immigrate to a third country. In the camp they should get the the help for the immigration process, but still have to go through all checks that ordinary immigrants have to. If they learn the language, get a profession and adopted to our culture then they can leave the camp and live in our countries. If they don't, they stay in the camp until their country is fixed.

It's our duty to save those who are in danger for not their own fault. It is absolutely not to tolerate them and their antics in our cities.

22 comments:

Anonymous said...

Go to the camps on the Syrian and take them direct from there. Merkel and apparently Sweden made the insane choice of letting anyone from anywhere flood over the border. If they are at Sweden then they have already passed through several safe countries and are not asylum seekers anymore but economic migrants.

Smokeman said...

"It's our duty to save those who are in danger for not their own fault."

No it's not. It's the duty of the government of those people to save them. If their government can't do that, then they should either run to neighboring countries, and with no guarantee of safety, or take over the government and stop the problem that way. (If that will work.)

That sounds harsh? But humans are not rare or endangered as a species.

Anonymous said...

@Smokeman
>humans are not rare or endangered as a species

Only if you believe all humans are exactly identical and equally the same. Housecats and lions aren't the same despite both being felidae, and if you've read this blog long enough you'll wonder how most of the people Gevlon plays against can be human. Want harsh? Most people are mere followers, cogs in the machine - and they're totally ok with that. Smart, strong, educated leaders are rare, and the ones who aren't leaders are most definitely endangered by the infux of "rapefugees" and all the problems they cause. Like he said, refugees can be protected without immigrating them, and they SHOULD be protected considering that almost all of the world's oil comes from their countries. Or will you say "we didn't want Industry anyway?"

Anonymous said...

"If their government can't do that, then they should either run to neighboring countries, and with no guarantee of safety, or take over the government and stop the problem that way. (If that will work.)"

The majority of syrian refugees ARE in neighbouring countries, which are struggling with the influx. Taking over the govt is a cute suggestion. When your government has an army with chemical weapons (or, in the case of the US, drones, for example), taking it over is not an option.
Fleeing from war and/or threats to our lives is something that could happen to any of us, the question is "If I were fleeing with my family, would I like us to be treated as I am suggesting others be treated", if not, then perhaps a rethink is required.


As for Donald Trumps advert, it works equally well for gun owners, white males, car drivers, drunk people etc. On the basis of "a small %" being a risk, we should ban all of the above from our nations.

Ðesolate said...

The main Problem is loosing control. When Merkel screamed "Refugees welcome!" and indirectly opening the european borders... ...that was loosing control.

That was all about elections, hyping hersel when she was slowly recognized as extremly dodgy and turning her political position as fast as the polls / surveys.

So we (Germany / Europe in general) didn't support the european Border States by reinforcing their Border or Police. Nobody registered the Waves of Refugees (nobody were able) and didn't track their movement.

As a German I could tell you all the things that happened since then in the urban areas (where my Univerity is) and the countryside (where my significant other and her son lives). But talking about the negative effects of the "refugees" (many try to establish that calling refugees by their german word "Flüchtlinge" is politically incorrect and the english "refugees" should be used) generelly leads to "Nazi" or hysterical opposition.

At least the Tide is turning and hopefully won't be reelected... ...but the Damage is done.
What would be ideal to do with refugees? Doesn't matter, when we don't really know where they could go nor will go.

Slawomir Chmielewski said...

80% of those immgrants are males in their 20s. Don't you think, that if they were really running from calamities of war they'd be taking their women with them?

They are economic immigrants plain and simple. Majority is not even from Syria. They also outnumber ISIS 100 to 1, they could end the war in an afternoon if they wanted to. I have exactly zero sympathy for those "Syrians".

Anonymous said...

While I agree with your solution, it seems to be completely unrealistic. Already, any politician who has an objection against refugees gets tagged as 'far right' at best. Anyone arguing for putting refugees into special camps would be portrayed as the reincarnation of Hitler by mainstream media

Riful said...

sorry, but your data doesn't hold up:

"You probably know that Sweden - not long ago the feminist utopia - gained the highest rape rate in Europe, with majority of rapist being from the Middle East."
->
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/swedens-rape-crisis-isnt-what-it-seems/article30019623/
"Sweden does indeed have far more reported cases of sexual assault than any other country. But it’s not because Swedes – of any colour – are very criminal. It’s because they’re very feminist. In 2005, Sweden’s Social Democratic government introduced a new sex-crime law with the world’s most expansive definition of rape."
"people who go to Sweden are poorer, and crime rates are mostly a product not of ethnicity but of class"
"almost all the victims of these crimes – especially sex crimes – are also foreign-born"

regarding the skittles math:
http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/terrorism-immigration-risk-analysis

regarding vetting / checking immigrants before letting them in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7U-t3GetV_Q

regarding the refugee crisis ... maybe have a look at these
to make it short "His family had not come to change the law, they had come to be protected by it."
overview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVV6_1Sef9M
impressions from refugee camp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2178SPJCKw
refugee case studies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rdi9SZX2k8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDaPg3q7br4

Anonymous said...

Unfortunately, we failed at protecting them in the camps in Jordania and other bordering countries. The UNHCR had camps large enough for the majority of the Syrian refugees, and the majority AT FIRST stayed there - but most countries failed to provide the funds to the UNHCR that these countries had promised. The result was a scarcity of food and water, and THAT was the moment when hundreds of thousands took to further flight into Europe.

@first Anon: Your first thought about safe countries is, of course, correct. But PLEASE think at least one step further! If all those refugees would stay in the first safe country, then it would very soon cease to be safe, since one country alone can't handle the weight on its own (take a look at Greece, for example, do!). Letting the refugees travel through Europe was a humanitarian act that let the pressure out of a pot that else would have exploded into several southern European states' faces.

Anonymous said...

@Smokeman: Trying to take over the government is what the rebel groups tried, after the brutal und humilitating treatment by government people became too much for them bear any longer. And now look what following your advise does to a country!

I wish you the ability to step into someone else's shoes, to really think through one's options from their perspective. As a man, as a woman, as a child, as a family father or mother. And imagine yourself in that situation. And then think, then speak, then act on it. In that order.

Borat Guereen said...

Best refugees story I heard these past week: some that got granted asylum and social help in some welcoming european country decided to go in vacation... in the country they fled in the first place.

dobablo said...

Tobold, your suggestion is already implemented as official UN refugee policy. Many refugees don't want to follow that policy so they attempt to manually enter their destination country. That scares the public so politicians put up further controls and limits on the official channel, ironically throttling controlled refugee immigration and funneling more people towards attempting the uncontrolled illegal channel.

Anonymous said...

Dont use Sweden as rape statistics. That statistic is not comparable with rest of the world and for sweden itself. Majority of the rape claims come from the change of law, not from increased rape. Its not a myth, that foreign people are more criminal, and that includes raping, but dont take Sweden as example - you can bend statistics too many times and it still explains nothing.

I welcome refugees who want to integrate to my culture. But i want to send people out of my country, who dont respect our laws and culture norms. Filter out the bad apples from rest of them.

Anonymous said...

The first safe country is just where they claim asylum. European countries can then go to those camps, and take refugee applications direct. If they are living in a camp they have "proven" that they are in genuine need of help. When you open up the border you get half who are economic migrants from Algeria or wherever (EU commissioner said this, not me). This is actually anti-humanitarian because that 20 year old from north Afican has "stolen" the place of a real Syrian refugee and you are hurting the real refugees.

nightgerbil said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srWQLp8A6Yg Gaddafi warned us what would happen if we screwed around and didnt back him and Assad. The only reason we don't have 14 million Egyptians joining in the flood is president Sisi. The solution to the problem is to deport all the economic migrants to safe zones established in africa. There are countries in africa that are at peace in africa that in return for western dollers (to help feed and house them) could easily house 2 million refugees where they would be safe and where they wouldn't be raping our women.

99smite said...

In 1956 Europe and the US took millions of Hungarian economic refugees as there certainly no threat to Hungarians because at that time, Hungary was a communist state and as we were often told, communist states are a paradise for everyone...
In 2015, Hungary refused to accept even one single refugee. Which is funny enough since the Dublin agreement stated clearly that the EU border states were tasked to protect their und respectively the EU borders. This got rid of the immigration problem for the rest of the EU member states. On the downside, the border states were left alone with the financial and social burden. That was not right and is one reason for the desolate state of the EU.
Now, the USA would still be vastly populated by their indigenous population were it not for economic immigrants/refugees.
I do totally agree that Merkel lapsus of welcoming refugees was the worst decision a German politician made since "Operation Barbarossa", but one of the reasons theses refugee waves started pouring into Europe was the fact the the UNHCR is heavily udnerfunded as many rich states do not pay their dues to the UN, among them the, you might have guessed it, the USA!!!!
Of course it would be way cheaper to give money to neighbouring states to feed them and satisfy their basic needs.
Currently, Germany ist drifting to the righ´t, close to Orban or Poland. Merkel should become history and her party will not be part of the next government.

All the recent migration waves might have been caused by CIA meddling with foreign opposition forces. Syria was a stable state, the majority of the Syrian people supported Assad. Ther were only a few small groups working actively against him. Now, who might have convinced them to rise up and promised them support.

Were it not so tragic, I would laugh every day watching Assad and Russia humiliate the US... It show that in Syria, nothing happens against the will of Putin. So, basically Obama and his successor are advised to seek negotiations on even levels with Putin.

The relations to Russia are another desaster for Merkel. Even though she fluently speaks Russian and has a wide knowledge of Russian culture, she is not able to get to terms with Putin, favouring the American frennemies and hurting the Russo-German relationship.

Oh, and did you know that FBI had been warned by the father of the afghan terrorist who is responsible for the latest bombings in NYC. He told the FBI two years ago that his son might become a terrorist and that he is getting more and more radical?
How inefficient can the FBI become? Stalin would have had the director of the FBI shot for his incompetence...

Anonymous said...

the western governments are run bye very decent and kind people who believe that the need too help the refugees too a better life, and in return the refugees will become model citizens and grateful for all that we have done for them,

this is very stupid for the so called refugee only want what we have and the do not care about becoming model citizens or being grateful, in fact the hate us and our decadent life style,

the will never integrate for the do not need too integrate for the will life there life's in Muslim dominated areas, going about there life in there own culture rejecting western life style, knowing full well that the western governments will happily pay for every thing that the need, for our leaders are fools and weak,

70 years of peace has given rise too politicians who only see the good in people and the do not see or the do not want too the see the truth that the world is not as good hearth ed,
for the are weak and spineless and never set a foot in the real world that there voters now face them self in,








NuTroll said...

//the western governments are run bye very decent and kind people who believe that the need too help the refugees too a better life, and in return the refugees will become model citizens and grateful for all that we have done for them,
//

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Western governments are run by very clever people who are building themselves a nice permanent voting bloc at the cost of disenfranchising their current constituents and selling it to them via a guilt trip. It also has the added benefit of eroding any populist power base that could undo their actions.

Take for example the democrats in american politics. Do you think they are being compassionate to immigrants when they are absolutely screwing their current voters by putting excessive strain on social safety nets and services, or is it more likely they are doing it to permanently increase their voter base?

Its an easy question to answer, just flip it. If American immigration was a majority of WASP conservatives, do you think democrats would be for it or against it? What about republicans?

So its obvious that EU Federalists want to dilute EU skeptic nationalists by changing the demographics in their favor. Thats why Goblins solution will never be implemented, because its not really about saving people from war torn countries they all are responsible for bombing and wrecking in the first place. Its about destroying two continents at once.

NuTroll said...

//80% of those immgrants are males in their 20s. Don't you think, that if they were really running from calamities of war they'd be taking their women with them?

They are economic immigrants plain and simple. Majority is not even from Syria. They also outnumber ISIS 100 to 1, they could end the war in an afternoon if they wanted to. I have exactly zero sympathy for those "Syrians".//

If you want to stop Immigration, you should absolutely NOT NOT NOT NOT use this fact.
For example, if I told you if 80% of the immigration to your country were hot Brazilian bikini models who are economic migrants taking all the jobs away from local strippers, streetwalkers and baristas, would you be for or against more immigration?

//They also outnumber ISIS 100 to 1, they could end the war in an afternoon if they wanted to.//
With all of the external factors involved (US,RUS,Saudi,Israel,Iran), I highly doubt this.

Gevlon said...

@Nutroll: Anyone that tries to build himself a voter block from Muslims is an idiot. You think these migrants would vote for Merkel if they could? No, they'll vote for some Salafist party that demands Sariah.

bikini models want to work. These immigrants don't, so everything they have is taken from us either as tax or by crime.

Phelps said...

Changes in the law or not, the truth is that it is incorrect to say that most of the rapes are from ME migrants. The truth is that ALL of the rapes are from ME migrants. Before the law changed in 2005, Swedes accounted for 1% of the rapes in Sweden. Now, Swedes account for 22% -- despite being 96% of the population.

Sweden doesn't have a problem in that some migrants rape. The problem is that the only rapists in Sweden are migrants.

NuTroll said...

//@Nutroll: Anyone that tries to build himself a voter block from Muslims is an idiot. You think these migrants would vote for Merkel if they could? No, they'll vote for some Salafist party that demands Sariah.//

The goal from the federalists is to erode national identity via influx , which would cause a power shift away from local and nation to regional (such as Brussells giving immigration quotas, or managing national fiscal as well as monetary policy, since managing only monetary policy alone centrally obviously won't work and was never intended to . Just the TTIP baby....)

Also, the children of the Muslims on the dole would (for at least a few generations), have to vote for some federal level candidates that aren't muslim or sharia. You are assuming 1. Merkel isn't an idiot, 2. the people behind her are idiots 3. preservation of germany as is, is the goal, when it isnt.

Goblin my point with the "bikini models" isn't about comparing how good a Brazilian would emigrate and assimilate relative to an Arab from the ME. My point is that telling a bunch of females who already don't like the men they are with, that dangerous dark strangers are available, is not going to help you stop immigration.