Greedy Goblin

Friday, July 1, 2016

Kicking inactives does help you

One of the negatives of tolerating toxicity is the hardship of discussing any matter. In an ideal World someone posts an idea and others posts criticism. Usually just a few people are intelligent enough and care enough to formulate proper criticism. So in an ideal World, a few comments would arrive. In toxic communities come dozens of hate-posts that are in the objective sense either offtopic (criticize the poster instead of the post) or contain no argument (just blanket rejection). This increases the cost of argument for intelligent commenters and posters as they must filter out the hate-spam.

For example to my suggestion to Goons came two pieces of criticism one on the TMC where it was published and one in the Reddit thread where the link was removed after Lenny realized that every bit of publicity hurts his agenda. I answer them, because they aren't EVE-specific and true for every game or even real life. Also, it's a great specimen why serious discussions can only take place on private blogs: I had to fish these two out from over 120 worthless comments.

So the first piece of criticism was "kicking inactives doesn't do anything to help or hurt you". This is objectively true. As an inactive is a mere item in the roster and never does anything, he don't matter. So there is no point to kick any inactives if you lead a group of robots against other robots. If you lead people against people, there is a reason. Both members and outsiders evaluate your group according to its size. The inflated roster make them look the group larger and stronger. While it has positive effects on both sides and keeping inactives can be a good idea when everything is shiny, when things are already bad, they must go because:
  • They lift enemy morale by making themselves believe that they are punching up. MoA was always very proud of fighting 1:40 while in objective reality they fought 1:3, maybe 1:4 as most of the CFC pilots were ratters with no significant killboard.
  • They create a "why me?" attitude among the members. Why should I fight when last fleet only 3% of the alliance was present? (for 16K Goons, that's 480 which is their M-O number). While things are shiny, the inactives just miss the fun and no one minds. When the task is to break a camp or harass an enemy you can't beat head on or make 12 jumps in 10% TiDi, "why me" is asked by everyone. If the inactives are kicked, the same numbers change from "a few percent of losers exploited by freeloaders" to "we are few but hold together and fight against the odds". Which is the objective truth. A crack already appeared on the Lenny narrative where Redditors contemplate how can CFC not recapture lands now that "most everyone else semi-relevant is gone". The answer is that the "irrelevant" alliances are stronger than Goons. Actually they defeated Goons. The "relevant" ones just came late to steal credit for themselves and Lenny.
The other piece of criticism is "Have you never heard of multiple accounts and the ability to be in two places at the time", referring to second account alts ratting while mains are fighting. The answer is that everything about an inactive is true for a ratting alt and more. I believe the correct approach to alts is that a player with N alts in the alliance must contribute N times more (click N times more "paplinks") and if he is uncapable, his alts must be kicked. At first an alt is not formally an inactive but present in the alliance chat and "all hands on deck ping, 100 in fleet, 800 in alliance chat" is even more demotivating than "100 in fleet from 16K roster". Secondly, a ratting alt consumes resources (anoms for Goons) forcing the alliance to have more land to have space for the members. Thirdly, a barely maintained ratting alt is the dream of hunters, providing lots of losses to the alliance and lots of morale to the enemies.

The best solution is to kick all non-combat alts and place them into renter alliances.

If I start a BDO guild, I will do both: will be quick in clearing inactives. BDO keeps track of alts by identifying players with "family names", so that won't be a problem.


Anonymous said...

"alts won't be allowed in the guild"

Don't family members automatically join the guild?

At least, all my family members, and all those of my friends playing with me automatically ended up in our guild.

Gevlon said...

Oops, forgot the "family" thing. I don't know if you automatically join alts or not, but doesn't matter as it's trivial to see who are alts are who are characters of different players.

Tithian said...

I believe that in BDO the rosters take into account you family, not the individual characters, so you won't be seeing the guild roster inflated with alts. There is also no multiboxing, since it is an action game and the only way you could actively 'AFK farm' with an alt while the main is in a siege, would be if you were botting. This widespread multiboxing/farm-alts/bot-farm thing is unique only to EVE, due to the gameplay involved (mouse driven, non-action combat, you can get away with it).

Anonymous said...
this should fix the fixed width problem.

friendlist,clans and guilds use Family not Chars. it is like Guildwars2.

I'm not to familiar with the EVE terms. what are "paplinks"? but for the rest it seems a sound conclusion and in no way harsh just simple facts based on stats and math. RMT is the worst!

Anonymous said...

> I'm not to familiar with the EVE terms. what are "paplinks"?

Imagine that your alliance is at war. By checking killboards, alliance leaders (or outside observers like Gevlon) can determine which corporations are actively contributing to the war effort. If a corporation isn't putting enough bodies on the field, then you can assign a diplomat to cuss them out. If a corp shows strong numbers, then they can be singled out for praise. But this works only when there's a lot of shooting - so that a participating pilot has a strong likelihood of killing something (or being killed).

Now imagine that your space is being threatened by hit-and-run guerrilla tactics. You mobilize a defence fleet, but the enemy raiders withdraw (possibly because they were warned by spies, or perhaps they just used a very nimble fitting doctrine). Your pilots are upset. They spent an evening of their lives listening to orders from some fat nerd (who calls himself a "Fleet Commander"), and they didn't even get to destroy an imaginary spaceship. Their killboard statistics will decline. When the FC calls for the next defence fleet, he'll probably see fewer people sign up.

Solution: the FC pastes a special URL into chat. Everyone in the fleet clicks on it, and their attendance is automagically recorded in the alliance's database. The DB also records the ship that they're flying, which is important for alliance logistics stuff. If some corporation is flying the wrong kind of ships then you need to straighten them out before they embarass themselves at a major battle. Once the pilot clicks the link, he can relax a bit. Even if he didn't get to kill anything, his participation will still be recognized.

The system can be abused, of course. Players may need to logoff (due to real-life stuff) before the fleet actually stands down, so they may pressure the FC to provide a link prematurely. If he does so, then he may find that half of his fleet promptly logs off. Similarly - a rookie FC attempting to marshal an EMERGENCY defence fleet may find that nobody is willing to join up ... because he doesn't have the authority to issue PAP links. It's supposed to be a way of *tracking* participation, but if morale is poor then it may become a sort of "bribe" ... with players refusing to participate unless bribed to do so.

Anonymous said...

"I believe that in BDO the rosters take into account you family, not the individual characters, so you won't be seeing the guild roster inflated with alts."

That is correct, it says Family (Character) on the roster, so only the one you are logged in as shows.

You could multibox quite easily, AFK fishing while sieging, AFK cooking while sieging, AFK training horses while sieging etc

Anonymous said...

on alt accounts in BDO.
they have very limited use if at all any.
you can't multibox on one PC like eve, wow and other multibox/two-account friendly games. you only can use BDO client "once per operating system".
you could buy alt accounts. level a 50 valkyrie on each account. cycle trough daily+weekly blackspirit and let the char fish 24 hours for relic shards. invite them all in grp get them to the boss spaw (two seaters. I didn't try a wagon maybe (untested) you can climb it and haul them like a rowboat).
all use heavens echo (stacks in grp) go in guard. cylce through all char scrolls. main kills the boss. rinse and repeat.
is this the best value for 30 bucks + electricity, 4 VMs or 4 cheap hardware setups (spare laptop, partner PC, media PC, VM)? Well I don't think so. Sure you can run more if you want to have a relics fishing farm. Drop rates for blackstones and memory fragments are low ... but if you want to blow your money for a slim edge feel free.

Anonymous said...

ohh I forgot to mention why I have alt accounts. I bhought two other accounts so I can do guild missions (minimum 3 guildmembers online). sure I could join some guild with gathering fishing skills. but I don't want to. with this at least I own it and have the buffs too (soon)

Gevlon said...

Paplink is "Participation Link" exactly to reward players for chasing raiders with no kills. At the end of the fleet the fleet commander gives a link and those who click it get verified on the alliance website, showing that they helped the alliance. Those who have little paplinks are leeches who don't help the alliance.

maxim said...

I can't help but point out how the game that supposedly has a better market (more "liberal") market system is more toxic, while a game with a "socialistic" market is less toxic.
Coincidence, obviously, does not imply causation. I am the one implying the causation.

Gevlon said...

@Maxim: EVE toxicity has one and only one cause: extremely incompetent corporation that doesn't enforce any policies on the devs and GMs who do as see fit and similarly enforce no policies on players.

Anonymous said...

There's something somehow specific with all these NS alliances : RMT. Corp management are here for the money, corp members are here for the services. That's why I still wonder why would any player accept any rule enforcement from people having chosen to earn money from something which is a leisure for them.

Provi Miner said...

I was thinking about your toxicity issues, I think you miss the mark.The reason eve is toxic while the real world isn't is bullshit. The difference in toxicity is in the PR. for instance I worked for a midsize corp and a major city and I can tell you what you hear on the phone has no basis in reality.

Eve toxicity: You suck get your head out of your ask if it were me I would kick your ass (to their faces)

RW toxicity: "great I will work on that shortly and keep you posted" hang phone up and either think or say aloud: You suck get your head out of your ask if it were me I would kick your ass

Eve allows people to say what they think when they think it, RW forces you to bite your tounge. until later