Greedy Goblin

Saturday, April 30, 2016

Minipost: This was the worst game experience ever

... and the worst spent 30 Euros. I bought Black Desert Online and positively hate it. I can't even tell what I hate the most of it:
  • Is it the complete lack of in-game tutorial?
  • Or maybe the lack of written manual? I've found third party manuals but they are either for older versions and the interface has changed or simply bad. I think the nodes and workers are somehow important, but I cannot figure it out how to use it.
  • Is it the lack of quests to direct or obvious clues how to interact with objects found during exploring? (compare it with EVE: asteroids are obviously for mining, rats are obviously to be killed, wrecks to be looted and salvaged)
  • No, the thing I hate the most is the combo-based combat system. You must press combination of hotkeys to call out a spell while holding the crosshair on the hostile(s). To make it worse, most of these combinations include movement keys, so if you try to move during combat, you usually activate some completely inappropriate spell instead of moving ... and die.
I don't care how deep and meaningful the endgame can be. I don't care how great project I can conjure up later. No way in hell I'm going to spend a minute more with these abomination.


Herman said...

Some of those points sound a lot like EVE in ca. 2006. I remember sitting in my ship ... trying to figure out how to move it (being used to flying around in the likes of Wing Commander and Privateer and such).

Gevlon said...

I started EVE in 2012 and had absolutely no problem playing it. Running big projects was a challenge, but running my ship and earning ISK was easier than WoW.

Rob Thompson said...

I agree with you Gevlon.

I did a bit of research first and especially sought out the negatives. I didn't find any that really seemed important.

Then I bought and played the game. And I found all of them. You've mentioned a few; but there are more. I won't waste time going into them.

For a game of this apparent complexity, a publisher's guide is a requirement. It's ridiculous to have to rely on out-of-date player-produced stuff, as good as that might be.

I know that EVE doesn't actually have a CCP-produced guide (why not?). EVElopedia wasn't really that good anyway. The best thing is the material produced by EVE-Uni, so CCP are getting it on the cheap. Typical. Disguising lack of engagement as the promotion of player-driven content.

Well, I paid for the game, so I'm keeping it, and delving into it during breaks; but it was a huge disappointment.

Antb15 said...

It's a shame you have to persist with these half-made online games. It makes for good blogging though so keep it up. Do you play any single player games for fun? Or can you only get fun out of a project? (Not that there is anything wrong with that)

Gevlon said...

EVE (at least when I started playing) had a pretty good tutorial in the form of Career Agents. Sure, they are front-loaded text tutorials which aren't "fun", but if you take the time and read them, you'll be fine. Also, most suff are pretty straightforward (except for tracking).

The main problem I don't get with BDO is that everything they messed up already has proper industry standards. It's not like they implemented something groundbreakingly new and couldn't do it properly (something that flies for Star Citizen). They took the standard stuff and implemented them in a stupid way.

Gevlon said...

@Antb15: I do play other games, just like I watch movies and do other recreational activities, but none of them are blogging material. "I had lot of fun xDDDDD" isn't what readers give a damn about.

Antb15 said...

I kinda agree with regard to the strict blogging format, but streamers/youtubers are in the same space. Have you considered out-of-game opportunities for your next project? Can you turn your blog popularity into something? Just thinking out loud

Little SNOOObie said...

I have spent 20 minutes trying to write a concise reply regarding your next project and the state of MMOs in general, but I find myself deleting every paragraph as soon as it is finished. I knew that you were already aware of all the points I was going to make, and you would agree with the overwhelming majority of them.

So, I instead will try and be realistic: what's next? Themeparks MMOs are moneybrags, sandbox ones are produced half-arsed because they don't know what they want and EVE has CCP running the show.

The only winning move is not to play.

Anonymous said...

Why not go to something awful forums and see what games Goons are playing and.... ruin their game.

Gevlon said...

@Little SNOOObie: I have high hopes for Crowfall (which will probably won't be as good as I expect) and ... I don't know. It's possible, that MMOs are the TV shows of the recent age: entertainment for the stupid.

Hanura H'arasch said...

Nice to see that I'm not crazy, I borrowed the game from a friend and had a similar experience.

And doesn't Crowfall suffer from the same pay-to-win bullshit as Albion Online? At least their pledge list seems like it. Or am I missing something?

Anonymous said...

Eve players complaining about other games having too obscure of a learning curve.

The end is nigh.

Gevlon said...

@Anon: starting EVE and playing isn't hard at all. Making the jump from "veldspar mining, L4 running no one" to "someone" is hard.

BDO is simply annoying/obscure to play. I guess after I built the muscle memory for all the combos it will be easier, but I won't suffer that long.

Rob Thompson said...

Crowfall is still in Alpha, but some of the ideas look good. They even borrowed EVE's passive skill-training feature.

Since I'm also on the lookout for a new game I decided to give it a try. Play testing is advertised on their website calendar tab, so I'll see what it's like as far as possible.

Yes, the pledge system appears dodgy to me. But it was a kickstarter, and it's currently gathered almost 10 million dollars, so I guess there's public enthusiasm for it.

I guess the only way to evaluate these games is to play them.

Provi Miner said...

of course there is always EVE, I suspect you been following it everyone falls into two groups concerning your "new jita" mantra: EPIC kill mail or as I suggest when you first broached the subjet "let Chibbra set it up"

Anonymous said...

I once mentioned Path of Exile, the only MMO that I know which is not "entertainment for the stupid", but I'm afraid it's still entertainment, nothing more. It has remarkable economy system, but it's "not fully MMO", it's a Diablo-like action RPG about players beating content and killing bosses (plus some pvp) solo or in small groups, with some little MMO elements (like guilds) and, like I said, economy.

Therefore I wouldn't advertise it as a potential blogging material, but I would, as a non-stupid recreational activity, or, like someone else named it, "an economical adventure". Maybe you could even find an extravagant way of playing it and becoming a known person, but it probably wouldn't "change" much in the virtual world. "Virtual worlds" are indeed out of fashion, it seems.

I still believe you should check common major MMOs first, the ones with raiding, mass PVP and other meaningful interactions of people (I'd like to hope that not everything is lost, and for me as a reader it would be more interesting than reading aboout PoE, even though I like PoE). But if you run out of options, this one is somewhat worth checking out - it's actually free, so no euros will be wasted.

...yes, it's free, it has good quality and there's no pay to win, which is already an anomaly, if you ask me. They advertise their monetization as "ethical microtransactions" (which is honest), but actually their model is something like "pay-for-convenience".

Gevlon said...

@Provi Miner: I can't come back to EVE even if I wanted to until Falcon is fired, as I called him out bad enough to be sure that he'd do anything to get back on me.

ati said...

Not sure if I mentioned Crowfall the last time.
It would have player driven economy and PvP is always toggled on. PvP and resources are tightly tied.
Hopefully the game will not disappoint.

Anonymous said...

I did not look at BDO due to the "action combat" designed to appeal to the boys who play CoD. ArcheAge is f2p so it will be 30E less to not like it. After that, Elite Dangerous is probably worth a shot. It is pretty good and since everyone is going to try Star Citizen at some point it is nice to be able to compare and contrast.

CCP said half the new players quit within two hours. So BDO should be very embarrassed to underperform that NPE.

Crowfall is done by some industry veterans so will be at least decent. I don't like the resets and the Cashshop+sub bonuses may not turn out well.

Camelot Unchained will be hitting beta "soon." It is by Mark Jacobs (Dark Age of Camelot) Crafter is a class. Horizontal progression. RvR PvP - so always kill the other two realms but no AWOXing your realm. Old School. large battles. sieges. destructibles.

nightgerbil said...

I told you man. Black desert is a p2w korean mess. You need a project come to swtor please, love to see you blog here. I'll list a few things about it:

The cash shop for a subscriber is pay to look pretty. For a free to player its a pay to have any kind of quailty of life. I can live with this.

The story content is great, its actually enjoyable if you like star wars universe and read alot of the novels. Unlike wow where nobody reads the boring quest texts, its easy to become absorbed with the story itself. I had to make a couple of different classes TWICE just so I could see alternate story paths. Its quite probable you will actually enjoy playing this even if no project emerges.

end game is standard: raids (quite fun trivially easy, but hard to pug because idiots.) heroic dungeons again hard to run because they drop little of value when your geared half decently so nobody whose any good runs them. PVP which I rate higher then wow, class balance is alot better. "heroic" weekly missions, can be run once a week, usually done in groups of four because it enhances rewards gives lots of gold(credits) think wow dailies. Pretty unimaginative, but there it is.

The reason I think it might be a good project is the communtiy has come up with the most moronic loot rules ever: bosses drop 1 piece of tier gear on a kill. these are 8 man raid groups and raids have like 4-7 bosses. So "to be fair" they have decided you can only have 1 piece of loot per raid. That way everyone gets something. My first encounter on this coming back in january was being told on the actual 2nd boss pull itself while tanking it(!) that because I had won a belt from the first boss I couldn't roll on anything else: period.

Now tanks are rare, I had seen lots of groups on fleet going "lf tank last post weekly ops" . So first off nothing stopped me leaving the group and just joining another raid without idiot loot rules they didnt bother to state in advance. Secondly I have heard about raid leaders who gather all the pieces up via master loot "to distribute at the end" and the community doesn't object as hes "being fair". Its unfortunate if he dcs during the final boss fight/ after the final boss fight, but internet heh? what can you do? it happens to us all. Wish he had got around to distributed the loot first though eh?

I tried pointing out the flaws of this in guilds, in ops, everywhere I go yet the idiot infection has contaminated most of the community I see. So the predators are having a field day. For my warnings and objections I am deemed selfish. Thus why I raid lead myself heh.

Hows that for a project?

Kurtizzle said...


The game teaches you some basic combat at the start through the Black Spirit quests and teaches you about workers and labour through series of quests starting with the trade managers and node managers around Velia.

Other than that you are in fact on your own with most things, DAUM is busy pressuring Peal to make changes to the game to make some information more clearer.

An example is the problem of hidden stats. There is a recent interview floating on the BDO website.

As for muscle memory, that is going to depend greatly on the class you play. As most people level up their first character they tend to take most skills to have a play with them, the game lets you reset your skill tree at lvl 45, this allows you to clean out all the 'bad moves' for more cookie cutter approach.

Some skills can go on the hot bar and the hotbar can even be extended, also you can macro some abilities to the mouse button.

If you're on EU and JORDINE give us a shout.
My family name is 'izzle'

PS: There is no true player trading in this game and currently the guild vs guild sieges are not enabled, due to server issues.

PSS: YouTube is where you need to go for info on this game, a lot of good material out there.

Provi Miner said...

Falcon.... yeah he hates you so much that he heard your fears on economy and they have toned that back. Trust me calling him out only most likely made him laugh maybe even helped him be a better employee of ccp understanding that when he jokes he really has an impact. Since you have called him and since your posts about how "he" killed the Moa offensive last summer you can bet he has been reflective. Hard feelings sure but anything directly to you? I doubt it.

Gevlon said...

@Nightgerbil: noted, will think about it.

Anonymous said...

@gevlon all the stuff to do with player interactions like pvp, trusting no one and the market has a hard learning curve in eve. But I agree the pve is easy enough for a baby to at least make some progress in high sec.

S Riojas said...

Surprised that you tried Black Desert Online. After looking at the youtube videos and site, all it amounted to was a T&A fantasy key masher. Probably would work well as an arcade game - concerning the combos, but translated to a PC that just means death to your keyboard.

Anonymous said...

I think you're overthinking the combos, the ratting in this game is as dull as classic Ishtar farming. Ranger combo - left+shoot, down+shoot, repeat ad nauseum. Works on everything. And PVP consists of ganking due to high-level gear instantly killing anyone not similar equipped. Not that there's a point, since you can just change server to farm somewhere else.

Nodes represent important points between cities. You activate them by earning contribution points (i.e. Fulfilling quests). Once activated, hire workers in cities and have them harvest. Note that quests don't give xp, you need to kiill things to level up. It is an interesting system (probably the only thing this game has going for it), however, the explanation of it is buried in the main quest storyline.

But ultimately a dissapointing game. Want to be rich? Leave your computer on overnight to AFK fish at a prime spot. Money printing beyond what's possible trading or crafting.

The Secret World MMO is on sale this weekend. Horror storyline, investigation quests that require you to think. Maybe a change of pace until a new contender enters the market?

thenoisyrogue said...


I changed most of the bound hot-keys, no problem at all. The only ones you can't do this is with the hidden combos. However, the hidden combos allow you to move while you use them. When you learn how to camera lock it means you can fight and move in any direction. You didn't mention what class you are playing so beyond that I can't really comment.

Yes, the game is complex. But I didn't cry when I didn't know something. I just did a quick search on the internet.

This is a doc.file. It is known as the BDO Bible:

Anonymous said...

I would suggesst modern eraly-access survival games (ark, rust, etc) have a bit of early MMO flavor - but are small scale wn well, early access.
Or may be eRepublic - sounds boring enough to be a eve substitute.
But to be honest I'm not sure if there is a game thats not eve or wow for you. Chances are you will return to one or another sooner or later.

And with all dure respect - I'm not sure if BDO is a good MMO for you since player interaction and economy is limited, but complaints about bad new player experience, really?

I'm sorry to say but you sound like a cranky old man that refuses to learn anything new - Not every game is wow or wow-clone, pretty much all other MMOs (eve included) have piss poor tutorial and hidden mechanics. Not saying it's good - it's jut fact of life at the moment and for the past 15 years.

Dávid Papp said...

@Gevlon: I do play other games, just like I watch movies and do other recreational activities.

I think many of us would welcome some top 10 singleplayer games, movies, books, music albums you would recommend for us who quit EVE and now have a lot of free time.

Ulrik said...

I will always recommend the Secret World to anybody even remotely interested in MMOs - the setting and storytelling is just that strong, and also different from most MMOs.

I'm not sure if there's much blogging material there though. The economy centers around trading between signets (all your items can have a signet) and augments (alternate progression that boosts your skills), so there might be something, but I don't think it's anything special in the economy.

There might be room for a "blue raid" project - gear progression is tuned for content that was never released, or has just finally been released in the last months. The initial end game is Nightmare Dungeons (Mythic Dungeons 4 years before Blizzard introduced them). When you start Nightmares you're in blues from Elite dungeons, but the intention is that you gather epics from the early bosses to progress through the dungeon and further on. However, you will also get currency called Black Bullion, which you spend to buy upgradable epics. These are upgradable beyond the drops of the dungeons, and will eventually trivialize the encounters of even the hardest dungeons. Advanced tactics, last time I checked, were basically to stack as much DPS as possible to burn through any pesky mechanics.

Completing all Nightmares and raids in blues might be a worthy successor to the blue raid.

Anonymous said...

Ohh the hypocracy.

combo-based combat system
really? Like with EVE there is no handholding. Or did the game tell you how to setup your UI, use look-at at you enemys ship to quickly double click in his direction to cover transversal? NO!
You have the option to quickslot everything in BDO even the standard spells. look into "settings" > "game" and enable quick slot. After that the existing bar will be split into separate slots you can drag them around and create more by drag in items or skills onto the freespace ( like for example your character) and configure a key for that quick slot.
you can play this game like any other tab targeted game. that said in the end you want a healthy mix of quick slots and combo-combat system. It is easier as dynasty warriors!

With this list you so totally are a WOW whiner. I really have to question how you got stuck on EVE?
write this in any other forum or in this case BDO forums, like others have (so much for you research? what did you research?) an read "go back to WOW".

did you only do combat? last week I only did combat on bosses for the rest I was busy with other stuff that doesn't require combat. READ: no fucking security missions are required! because you don't need to be "a level"

Black desert is a p2w korean mess
care to elaborate? I don't see Aions hour transform with OP stats or cash pots that heal for a ton more than ingame pots.

WOW tokens. I just bought several mistic runs and have all the bestin gear.
EVE Plex. I just bought injectors to "all 5" my char on hour 1 and hangars full of prefitted ships for me to welp on hour 2.

GW2, no power only convenience like mining-tool. You want ascended or legendary gear in gw2, you will have to do it yourself!
BDO yes you can pay for some %. like you can buy tabs in Path of Exile. great. you still have to grind to get the advantage. don't give me treant camo as response because you obviously play starcraft with the minimap disabled.

It seems allot of you wow whiners really don't know anything about games nor anything about korean games.

Gevlon: What is you gaming CV? what did you play as a pre-teen and teen? Most WOW shitheads did play nothing to "it was their first MMO". Really play older games! Morrowind? full of bugs without any handholding the absolutely best RPG experience in ever and still is, skyrim is a pale shadow! not for you obviously. Baldurs gate? the tales of lack of polish. still it was a blast. Diablo 2 there you had excellent blizzard polish. did it had remotely ingame tutorials? no! What does blockhitarate mean? You will have to do it yourself or hope that someone did it allready. the last option should be familiar, looking up build on elitistjerk.

really. go play tablet games let the PC market gradually die it's slow death with all the stupid elitist (like my self apparently. mind you I'm just casual scum.)