Greedy Goblin

Friday, February 19, 2016

I didn't want that trillion anyway

This post is long overdue, but I wanted to fully analyze the killboards to provide you more than "lotza gewnz pwnd lol". So I combined the killboard data of all Emporium alliances (marked with red rank on the killboard page, RvB not included). With this we can see who killed and who was killed by the Emporium in 2015. Behold the Emporium killer toplist:

If you follow my blog, you are probably not surprised that the top Emporium enemy, Mordus Angels, did twice as much as PL with equal ISK ratio. They are followed by fellow "NPC nobodies": OOS and Project.Mayhem. Then comes PL, followed by the "oh so elite" NC. who managed to get red against the Emporium. Please note that their ISK ratio is about the same as the "long tail" enemies, which include highsec haulers. I really hope NC. follows S2N to oblivion. Maybe they could join with PH, they'd fit well.

Back to the topic: the numbers are clear that I made the right call when picking donation recipients. How much donation was given in 2014? The GRR page lists it for every month, the sum is 40.6B for highsec wardeccers, 90.6B to nullsec groups (-EH-, OOS, Anime masters) and 491.8B to MoA, which is 623B combined. As I've spent 521B in 2014, I'm over 1.1T spent on GRR. Since I gave it away, I can tell "I didn't want that trillion anyway".

Besides spending money, I collected lot of statistics about EVE and posted them. They all help battling Goon propaganda and lies, hopefully convince anti-Goons to stop hoping that some coalition will break the Emporium. Only small gang rathunters can end the Goon menace by "convincing" ratters and miners one by one that they should be renting or joining some backwater PvE alliance like RUCA. Without the moneymaking background they can't pay SRP and lose their F1-monkeys too.

Onward to the third year with even more ISK and more data!

24 comments:

Unknown said...

Can you use the isk ratio and % donated to each alliance to determine how much damage your trillion did? Somewhere in the 1.6 trillion range is that abiut right?

Provi Miner said...

What does "I have kill data for CVA and ALTS could be interesting" mean in the context you used it?

I am curious about a deflated kill board for the north provi folks like my YF and -7-.

Gevlon said...

@Unknown: it's impossible to tell how much MoA would have killed without my donation.

@Provi Miner: CVA and ALTS were top 10 ratters of 2015.

Anonymous said...

> it's impossible to tell how much MoA would have killed without my donation.

And that's why some people have a problem with your conclusions. Because it is equally impossible for you to tell that MoA have killed anymore than they would have _with_ your donations.

That is to say, despite all your statistics and your money spent you cannot tell if you are having an impact or not. You haven't been able to prove that you have been more effective than other variables impacting goons (such as mechanics changes).

Indeed, the only conclusions we can draw are that after 2 years and countless billions spent the Goons are still there, still as strong as ever, and showing no signs of going anywhere....

Provi Miner said...

ah K so why not include it on the chart

Gevlon said...

@Anon: last year, without donations they were much smaller. "SRP helps PvP" is the consensus opinion in EVE.

@Provi Miner: probably I will.

Zosius said...

It's really interesting how committed you are. It's great you found a passion and chose to work on such crusade. EVE can be a demanding game. I believe you mentioned you have full-time work, so to keep up such steady flow of isk you must need to do almost daily trading not to mention to keep up with daily writing. Don't you get burned out? After so much time, has this not become a chore?

Lyle said...

To try and put your 1Tillion Isk into some sort of perspective, I used your ratting data from yesterday to calculate what the Emporium made/lost in 2015..

They killed ~376M rats in 2015, at an average of 450k per Null rat that means the line members earned about 170T Isk. Of which they lost around 34T Isk in ships.

Interesting, but that also means they kept 136T Isk to spend on more ships..

Of course, this doesn't include their other sources of income like Moons which probably paid SRP on a lot of that 34T of ships so they've got even more ships...

Gevlon said...

@Lyle: which would be a problem if
- other nullsec entities wouldn't kill more rats and lose less ships, therefore this income would be extraordinary or high. (actually, 170T for 40K accounts is mere 4B/year)
- if the ISK would be distributed evenly or somewhat invested back into the Imperium (as you assume that it's spent on ships).

The sad truth is that most of this ISK is made by RMT-ers like Gaara and siphoned out, while the average line member is making so little that he needs SRP for combat ships. Otherwise this enourmous ISK would be somehow visible (for example by an 1700 titans fleet)

Anonymous said...

"Besides spending money, I collected lot of statistics about EVE and posted them. They all help battling Goon propaganda and lies, hopefully convince anti-Goons to stop hoping that some coalition will break the Emporium."

Do you get the same level of page views and comments on your...presentations of data as on your other posts?

Rob said...

"other nullsec entities wouldn't kill more rats and lose less ships, therefore this income would be extraordinary or high. (actually, 170T for 40K accounts is mere 4B/year)"
You're always going to get skewed stats if you divide by the players as if that's how it works. Think abut how many characters you own, and how small your income would seem if you divided your net income by those characters. Or even look at MoA, the amount you gave them in 2015 divided by their lowest player count of the year gives at most 450m per player per year. Most players get income from multiple sources, far more than can be guessed by rats alone. Sure, in contrast to the richer players, some will be getting low amounts of isk, and most will be paying for their accounts with cash, but I doubt there many people living in abject poverty.

"Otherwise this enourmous ISK would be somehow visible (for example by an 1700 titans fleet)"
nobody would run a 1700 titan fleet, you'd just be asking to get destroyed. They do show it though, like when they spend out hundreds of billions on "for fun" events

Jim L said...

You constantly bring out that 40k number to minimize Goon income but you never use it on numbers you want to spin as positive.

To be consistent, next month when you do the monthly report divide many of those numbers by 40k. You will realize that the average Goon isn't affected by you.

Also the enormous ISK amounts are visible. Every now and then you link to blinged out ships that are destroyed.

Gevlon said...

@Jim L: considering that I'm completely ineffective, you spend lot of effort trolling here.

maxim said...

Is there any way to measure damage taken by goons aside from ISK lost?
Is ratting activity any sort of indicator? Is there any way to tell the general activity of their members? Maybe there is some other metric?

Ultimately, i don't think you can end goons without having a good cadre of like-minded people (not necessarily organized in a corp, but still acting like a sort of meta-corp). But i accept that without any real metric of gauging goon health, i have no way to prove or falsify this claim.

Gevlon said...

@Maxim: ratting is measured, but it's hard to link it to any actor. It's a fact that Fade ratting dropped by 40%. TISHU claims credit. They surely have some. How much? No one knows.

Anonymous said...

"@Jim L: considering that I'm completely ineffective, you spend lot of effort trolling here."
He's right though. You are quick to turn around and say that they only make 4b a year because you divide the isk over all 40k people, but then when you talk about damage you don't do the same. If all income is divided over all of the members, then expenditure should be too right? So how much does each individual member lose a year based on your loss statistics?

Hamlyn Medley said...

@everyone
Apparently Gevlon made more than any of you guys... just saying
He IS doing something, that's for sure, and not delivering the money just to prove some trolls on his site that hes making a difference is not worth it... the only people who will really benefit from it will be goons
And dude, for real, do you really think that billions of isk will NOT make difference?? Seriously?
Every member of MoA can spend less time making isk and, instead, kill more goons, so YEAH it is making difference... omfg it's so fucking easy to see that... idk how the question was taken seriously and why Gevlon even wasted time to answer...
Want to see if more isk on MoA wallet makes difference? start donating and see the charts, simple as that ;)
Donate and see for yourself.

An evil goon said...

"Apparently Gevlon made more than any of you guys... just saying"
Well no, apparently he's making more than if you divide an estimated level of ratting income by the total number of players in the alliance. I know for a fact that there are plenty of people making more than him. Judging by his figures (and assuming we're adding the recent 350b sP sales to the figures above) I made about 100b less over the last year, and mine will be going where my income usually goes, which is to PLEX4GOOD when it comes back up.

"not delivering the money just to prove some trolls on his site that hes making a difference is not worth it"
The people you call trolls are simply people with a different opinion. That doesn't make them trolls.

"And dude, for real, do you really think that billions of isk will NOT make difference?? Seriously?"
Yes, seriously, because it's been happening for over two years and there has already been no observable difference. I don't see why that would now change.

"Every member of MoA can spend less time making isk and, instead, kill more goons, so YEAH it is making difference..."
As Rob said above, he's given them the equivalent of 450m a year per player, and that if moa leadership aren't keeping any to plex their accounts.

"Want to see if more isk on MoA wallet makes difference? start donating and see the charts, simple as that ;)
Donate and see for yourself."
Most people don't play the game simply to pay for someone else to be able to play the game with less effort. I play the game because it entertains me and being in goons gives me access to opportunities I'd otherwise not have. Even if goons turned around and started demanding an unreasonable level of contribution I'd be gone.

Jim L said...

Also, why do you constantly misrepresent what I wrote? I never said you were ineffective. I said when you divide by the 40k number you use, it will show that the average Goon isn't really affected by you.

There is a difference.

Anonymous said...

Moa line member here. We usually have about 200-250 active pvp pilots at anyone time. The srp goes to help those pilots replace their ships. So for an active pvp pilot is it certainly more than 450 million. Does all the money go to srp? I have no idea. IF i were in MOA leadership I would use some of that money to fund spy accounts to help us get the kills we want.

Anonymous said...

"Moa line member here. We usually have about 200-250 active pvp pilots at anyone time. The srp goes to help those pilots replace their ships. So for an active pvp pilot is it certainly more than 450 million."
And exactly the same goes for goons. If Gevlon is going to arbitrarily divide goon income by total members and then pretend that's how much they get, the same has to apply to moa. That's the point, you can't treat two subjects of a data set differently and draw conclusions in the same way.

Anonymous said...

And The Marmites Collective were happy to take all the isks for the wars Gevlon. Really, no problem at all. :)

Tora

Hamlyn Medley said...

"Well no, apparently he's making more than if you divide an estimated level of ratting income by the total number of players in the alliance. I know for a fact that there are plenty of people making more than him. Judging by his figures (and assuming we're adding the recent 350b sP sales to the figures above) I made about 100b less over the last year, and mine will be going where my income usually goes, which is to PLEX4GOOD when it comes back up."
Yes, he made more in fighting goons, not money making... IWI makes more than anyone in this game. And saying that you will give your money to P4G does not make you a better person than him. To be honest, you are kind of hipocrit... while you give your money to P4G you keep your support for this guy: "Incidentally, if you want to make the guy kill himself, his name is [REDACTED]. It's [spells the name]. He has his own corp. FIND HIM!" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbYNLmtAMAw&t=120)

"The people you call trolls are simply people with a different opinion. That doesn't make them trolls."
By trolls I mean the ones trying to deny his contribution of fighting goons. Everyone else is just fine by me.

"Yes, seriously, because it's been happening for over two years and there has already been no observable difference. I don't see why that would now change."
4+ T isk dmg is no observable difference? SMA crashing with isk loses, sov over turned, ADMs tanking, losing a quarter of alliance numbers (over two thousand members) and going from the 2nd largest alliance to the 5th is no observable difference? Seriously?

"As Rob said above, he's given them the equivalent of 450m a year per player, and that if moa leadership aren't keeping any to plex their accounts."
I wonder how many t1 dessies can I buy with 450m and how many goons can I kill with those... And how I will not care to farm isk since the ship is already ready to kill more goons! And, for real, if you make that much isk you claim, you stop thinking about how difficult is for new players to make isk. Or people like me, who can't play more than 2 hours per day and only want to jump on the game and blow goons up. If I have a ship ready, I will take it and kill as much as I can before I blow up. Then I bring another. NO delays, no worries, just pure fun and goons death count.

"Most people don't play the game simply to pay for someone else to be able to play the game with less effort. I play the game because it entertains me and being in goons gives me access to opportunities I'd otherwise not have. Even if goons turned around and started demanding an unreasonable level of contribution I'd be gone."
Ahm... Yes! Isn't this obvious? What kind of answer is this? 99,9% people play this game for themselfs... I'm not questioning about it. I didn't said anyting about it tbh so... what kind of answer is this?
It's simple: If you want question gevlon if his money is making a difference or not, simple donate and see if they kill more, if yes then hurray, it does
if no then nope, gevlon sucks
If you live by the numbers, you die by the numbers. So the only weapon against Gevlon is his own: Numbers, data and facts. Don't claim, prove him wrong.

Anonymous said...

"If you live by the numbers, you die by the numbers. So the only weapon against Gevlon is his own: Numbers, data and facts. Don't claim, prove him wrong."

the issue is, you get moderated out if you have valid points against the numbers.
wise men say, that statistics can be interpreted in different ways. you saw it, as gevlon keeps deviding numbers by 40.000. its just the way to modify data in the way you need it to claim victory. you can adjust statistics that your argument looks good, but you can also turn it to the other side and see the truth. statistical manipulation is often used. never trust a statistic you didn´t manipulate yourself.

"By trolls I mean the ones trying to deny his contribution of fighting goons. Everyone else is just fine by me."
Ofcourse he contributes to fighting goons. but still, contribution to a low impact on goons, is at the end still low impact.
How long is MoA fighting goons? And they were long before fighting goons. Still fighting goons and will keep fighting goons. Ofcourse you argue that there is significant impact. but thats all propaganda. each side will claim it.

"I wonder how many t1 dessies can I buy with 450m and how many goons can I kill with those... And how I will not care to farm isk since the ship is already ready to kill more goons! And, for real, if you make that much isk you claim, you stop thinking about how difficult is for new players to make isk. Or people like me, who can't play more than 2 hours per day and only want to jump on the game and blow goons up. If I have a ship ready, I will take it and kill as much as I can before I blow up. Then I bring another. NO delays, no worries, just pure fun and goons death count."
thats cool bro. you are having fun. wonder how many PvP ships can the goon grunt buy by SRP? and how many pve ratting ishtars? the ones who rat, will have enough isk in their wallets anyhow.
the thing is, you have fun, goons have fun. all good. but they wont disband from this. why should they.
remember the marmite crusade of gevlon against goons. there was same story. all said, yes they have big impact and this is really hurting them. and then, nothing. the agreement was ended, and after this, he spinned the wheel and said tora and marmite sucked anyhow.


define project targets, define a timing, prove us wrong.
everything else is just propaganda and floating around. it will be still the same in the next 5 years, if eve still exists then.