Greedy Goblin

Saturday, August 22, 2015

Weekend minipost: the battle of DK-FXK

Mordus pilots once again proved their worth. They engaged a 2x outnumbering, capital supported fleet and came out victorious with 2B Goon ships destroyed.

The battle of 6-O5GY is even more remarkable. Would you engage a BS + HAC + HAC + faction cruiser gang with only a pair of faction cruisers? Well, Stunt Flores takes his Stratios Samurai gimmic pretty seriously and went Banzai! Since the enemy was only FCON, the laughing stock of the Imperium, both Stratioses left intact, unlike their enemies.

One last time: Goons, do not to put an ASB and point on your blinged ratting boats and try to engage Mordus Angels! It's like putting a point on a ratting Nyx and dropping it on PL Archon.

Final note: Goons still keep 5ZXX-K hellcamped, preventing Mordus from undock in anything but interceptors. Totally.

30 comments:

Anonymous said...

You realize this was not a ratting boat but a troll boat? We had a nice laugh with soth when MOA finally managed to kill it.

Gevlon said...

Yes, I'm completely sure you didn't want that bling Vargur anyway.

Marek Zaborowski said...

I love rhetoric of goons on that one: "Moa is just but a pest!" and "We dont want X anyway" or "Its doset matter, cause on grander scale, nothing changes.".

1. If they are just a pests, why so allmighty Goons have problems to rid them out?

2. Seriously, stop that. Its a spaceship game, if something counts here are spaceships. Its like losening chess match and saying "duh, didnt want that knight anyway" instead of admitting our enemy simply outsmarted us.

3. Yes, it does matter. Simply not for whole coalition but for a single player or corporation it does count. Because its hurt something even more precious than their ships, its hurts they ego.

Anonymous said...

@Marek Zaborowski
1. It's impossible to remove anyone from NPC space really. You can make them less effective but there no way to forcefully remove them.

2. "didn't want that anyway" is a play on how rich goons are. It's like when gevlon was doing his whole troll freighter thing. Losing a freighter would lose him isk, but he didn't care about it. It was an easily acceptable loss.

3. It really doesn't. You should listen to the players after they've been blown up. 9 times out of 10 they are having a laugh about it. Even the ones seemingly angry in local are usually laughing on comms while they copy paste sperg into chat.

Marek Zaborowski said...

1. There is more ways to counter our enemies than simply "burn their house down". One of the most well-knowed one is "blueballing", stop feeding MoA with kills and I am sure they will go to do something more interesting. You cant claim that they have superior ships or numbers, so that shouldnt be a problem, eh?

2. Gevlon calculated that popping his troll freighter would cost Goons/Gankers more, than his freighter was worth. So it was calculated spending of his ISK-s, much like he supports SRP for MoA and others goons-killing etnities. Losening mining fleet that is indexing or ratters ships, is by not any means "investment" or wanted loss. Unless goons are so good now, that they feels to run charity for small PVP-ers.

3. Oh sure, yeah, laugh on losses. Cause null-sec dwellers are so cool and easy-going You never hear them whine, cry or shitpost. Nah-ah, they are too cool for that. Lets be serious here, "laughing" is defensive mechanism after losening, oftenly embarassing. We want to turn it into a joke, let it be "trollfit", "trollratting" or "troll-(x)". Then my peers wont think I just seriously fucked up.

All of these 3 are defensives mechanisms, these are tries of denying rational truth to protect Goons ego. You have embarassing loses to some small-corps that are dedicated to do guerilla-warfare on Your territories and so far You could do shit about it. You basicly have Vietnam right there in and You go full `murica on it. Napalm them fuck out (hellcamping) which clearly dosent work, because when "bombs" goes out they simply arent there and then try to deny the fact that few little asians kills Yours soldiers with bamboo sticks, tripwire and nails while Your highly-equipped, professionals soldiers and administration have no fucking idea how to counter-act.

Seriously though I would love to see parody of Rambo in EVE featuring Mittens as title character. That would be hilarious.

Anonymous said...

"1. There is more ways to counter our enemies than simply "burn their house down". One of the most well-knowed one is "blueballing", stop feeding MoA with kills and I am sure they will go to do something more interesting. You cant claim that they have superior ships or numbers, so that shouldnt be a problem, eh?"

this you can never achieve with so many players.
theoretically you are right. but it has nothing to do with practical facts of big groupts above >2000. you cant control everyone. and cant teach everyone.

Gevlon said...

You can kick all the bads and the good ones won't feed MoA kills.
Oh wait, if you kick all the bads from GSF, nobody is left.

Marek Zaborowski said...

Of course, but then please stop preaching afromentioned rhetoric. I do not claim every goon "sucks", cause from my POV You are bunch of individuals like any other group. So there gonna be clever players, stupid, "lucky" and "unlucky".

The problem is, goons consider themselves a single etnity, a swarm or more accurate for current meta, a hive. Thus, if You use rhetoric based "We didnt want X", "We laughs on these loses", "We, We, We", its left me or Gevlon little to none, than to threat You as a such etnity. HOWEVER, we would LOVE to see Goons developing individualism when You start to separate good, rational players, from mindless grunts. Sadly, current propaganda of Your administration is the opposite, it is "sacrifice Your individualism at the altar of group". Riot against it, if You oppose it and try to change that... Otherwise accept the fact, that these "bad goonies" gonna be categorized as "goonies" as a whole :/

Anonymous said...

If a ship was specifically purchased and fitted for the sole goal of trolling and dying, there is no sense in implying the loss hurt and somebody got mad about it. It did its job - mission accomplished. In this sense, people can say they wanted that ship and wanted it to explode.

Anonymous said...

"You can kick all the bads and the good ones won't feed MoA kills.
Oh wait, if you kick all the bads from GSF, nobody is left."

This is the difference between Marek and yourself.

Marek realises that in any group there are a range of individuals.

You think the whole group are the same.

Although, for a group with no leadership skills, no market-fu skills, and no knowledge of the game, they seem to be doing fairly well, so what would this say about every other player in Eve?

Gevlon said...

Obviously there are good players in the Imperium. However they explicitly trained their membership that "we are bad at EVE". That learning the game is a waste of time, they just have to anchor up and press F1. So they had an excellently performing fleet where only a few people had any clue, the rest weren't more than drones. Now in Aegis, they have problems because of that.

Anonymous said...

@Gevlon
As a Imperium member, I can say your last comment is untrue on all accounts.

First - "we are bad at Eve" is just a slogan and people know that. Nobody expects other people to actually stop getting better at the game. Quite the contrary - there are programs to train newbies in pretty much every role they want. A typical grunt is constantly encouraged to join interest groups/Gooniversity/etc.
Second - the Imperium doesn't have any problem now. No matter how much you want to spin it, the situation is like this: MOA keeps trolling us a little (at least until the next patch) but runs away pretty almost every time a fleet is in the area. They're such a non-entity in the terms of danger, the whole coalition is deploying south without even looking in MOA direction.

All of this can be verified by anyone - just get yourself/your alt into Karmafleet. You'll know how the Imperium functions form the inside. You'll see how false your assumptions are. Would you dare making such experiment? Making an alt takes little time.

Marek Zaborowski said...

To clarify, I do not think that there is a big diffrence between me and Gevlon in that case. Gevlon is just fighting goons a lot longer and he get a little bit sarcastic, if not bitter about them.

I think our goals, which is preaching rationality are the same, albeit we have diffrent styles on them. Gevlon is a crusader, while I am more of an observer and philosopher. Its easier for me, to stay "neutral and open", when I am not dedicating so much time and effort, as Gevlon do.

Jim L said...

What "problems" do they have?

They can control (long term) whatever SOV they want. They are generally keeping their membership happy and entertained (as evidenced by the growing membership). Those are their goals and they are succeeding at them.

You have to make up "problems" for them by measuring them against metrics they do not measure themselves against.

Put another way, it would be like me constantly saying you have problems because you are a terrible football player and you can't even play in the lower tiers of the Champions League.

Gevlon said...

"Whatever SOV they want" shrinks again and again. Delve, Querious, PB, Fountain, Cloud Ring was once theirs. They probably didn't want it anyway.

Also, from time to time they fit PvP ships, so they wish to play "football", they are just terrible in that.

Marek Zaborowski said...

Ah, I figured it out finally!

The all confusion on comments, the war between anti-goons and pro-goons! It stricked me, just now.

The problems lies here, the side A talk about Goons and side B talk about goons, but they often speaks about 2 diffrent etnities completly! They are just named the same, which causes afromentioned confusion.

There is a "goons" as a organisation, group of individuals, its pretty okay-ish. Its got bad/good players, logistic, own agenda, activities and other "average joe" stuff. Nothing special here, maybe expect they are one of the biggest such groups (if not the biggest).

And there is "goons" as an... idea! Idea that individuality dosent matter, that You dont have to think and learn ropes, to be succesfull you just have to be in right herd.

Gevlon is fighting the second, yet a lot of people thinks his focus is on the first one, on goons as an organisation. And they are right, if they think that current activity of MoA or Anime masters is too little, for them to failscade. But Gevlon is less interesed in goons failcascadin, than in proving that their ideology is wrong, their propaganda false, and that goons are not in any way special, that they are not mythological creatures that cant be slain.

So does Gevlon "beats" Imperium as organisation? Propably not. But does he proves, that Imerium IS beatable and their "goons" ideology is false and based on mythos? 100% yes.

Anonymous said...

@Marek Zaborowski
"1. There is more ways to counter our enemies than simply "burn their house down". One of the most well-knowed one is "blueballing", stop feeding MoA with kills and I am sure they will go to do something more interesting. You cant claim that they have superior ships or numbers, so that shouldnt be a problem, eh?"
Which you know full well doesn't truly exist outside of bloc wars and certainly can;t happen now that Aegis sov is in place. What you're effectively saying is "the way to win is to abandon your space and give up income".

"2. Gevlon calculated that popping his troll freighter would cost Goons/Gankers more, than his freighter was worth. So it was calculated spending of his ISK-s, much like he supports SRP for MoA and others goons-killing etnities. Losening mining fleet that is indexing or ratters ships, is by not any means "investment" or wanted loss. Unless goons are so good now, that they feels to run charity for small PVP-ers."
Wrong. Under no circumstances did his freighters cost more than what the goons threw at it. A fully insured empty freighter still takes less in catalysts that the cost of the insurance. losses occur and many are simply accepted as a cost of operation.

"3. Oh sure, yeah, laugh on losses. Cause null-sec dwellers are so cool and easy-going You never hear them whine, cry or shitpost. Nah-ah, they are too cool for that. Lets be serious here, "laughing" is defensive mechanism after losening, oftenly embarassing. We want to turn it into a joke, let it be "trollfit", "trollratting" or "troll-(x)". Then my peers wont think I just seriously fucked up. "
Most shitpost purely for the responses, you'd be surprised how many really don't care and are laughing on comms the whole time. It's just funnier to chuck fake outrage into local chat.

The problem with you (and Gevlon) is that you project onto goons because of your hatred of them. You'll never really understand them because you have no interest in being honest about it, you'd rather just pretend that they are falling about themselves crying because MoA exist. I kid you not when I say that there are individual NPC players that are considered more of a threat than MoA (especially when MoA comes up against a terrible SMA fleet and gets melted in 30 seconds).

Anonymous said...

""Whatever SOV they want" shrinks again and again. Delve, Querious, PB, Fountain, Cloud Ring was once theirs. They probably didn't want it anyway."
CCP changed the amount of sov you need to hold to be as efficient. Individual systems are capable of supporting mroe players so they need less sov.

Please show me where the Imperium no longer have sov where it was forcefully removed from them by an enemy.

Anonymous said...

You stand correct on the separation of two Goon fronts. The problem is that Gevlon does not understand it: He is against the Goon ideology , yet he tries to demonstrate this side by attacking the organisation.
He sends money to MoA and co, link Goon isk inefficient fights/kills and troll them with mechanic-focus rhetoric (didn't want X, hellcamps etc). All these have nothing to do with the "big bad Goons that destroy the game", and its the reason why his years of campaigning have produced no fruits whatsoever: Imperium has more members than ever, they are richer than ever, and influence the game more than ever before.

Jim L said...

Did anyone take by force that SOV you mention or did they willingly give it up with out a fight?

Also, you continue to commit the fallacy of judging the group by a few of it's members.

Face it, Goon membership is growing. You are failing.

Gevlon said...

@Jim L: they gave it up to prevent anyone take it by force. If I give my purse to the robber when he says "stand and deliver", I'm still robbed against my will, despite he didn't touch me.

A few killmails: a few members. End of the month killboard report: the whole group. MoA has 75% ISK ratio against Imperium since I've been analyzing it.

I don't see their membership growing, but even if it did, how would it mean I'm failing? Oh wait, socials think "more friends is good". HERO coalition had 10x more members than PL, so they surely roflstomped those PL punks.

Marek Zaborowski said...

I would have to run numbers, if popping freighter in Jita/Amarr IS indeed cheaper, than fleet of catalyst needed to do so. Especially in a single, flawless run. So I withdrawn that argument for now.

Also, please save me rhetoric of "You cant understand Goons!" cause its basicly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX5YsLBZxjM

And goons by any means are not crazed, psychic etnity that is destinated to end world.

Like I said I hold no hatred towards Goons as organisation, moreover I feel sorry for them in certain cases. I completly understand, that they are "fun-to-be-in", have proper logistic, support for theirs players etc. I think they work well and in many case hard, to achieve what they have. Their success dosent comes from "just being".

What I dislike is the approach of their managment and the very core idea, that stands behind that organisation. Everyone knows, that everything comes to an end, that there is bright days and bad days. So Goons, being a superpower wanting to withstand their position started to forcing status quo upon others, rather than doing anything significiant.

Mittens and rest of the "goons brains" knows, that there is only one thing that is dangerous for them and this is change. So they are trying to block any possible change (and I am not speaking about mechanics). They drop "fun fights" like that Providence war, just so they propaganda can say "we are doing something".

But where is the ambition? Where is the willing to change? To risk? To create something above their own limitations. Back in days, Goons become fameous for fighting BoB, adapting new strategies and being bold and innovative. And know? They are the very opposite for the power, the power of changes, they represtend. Now they represent stagnation and despair. "Stop dreaming and caring, everything that could be achieved in EVE we already did, now there is only fun left." <- That is what goons propaganda is feeding to playerbase.

I cannot support stagnation in game, that is based on conflict. Revolt, riot, put Yours own ambition above interest of the herd. That may sound terrible in irl morality, but I am argueing about spaceship game. Here, there is no goal, no end of the road, there is only change.

Marek Zaborowski said...

To summarise, I do not hate Goons, no. But I see them as an obstacle, a problem for every rational player and thus, organisation that should be attacked, harassed and ultimatly forced to implode, to create new in-game chaos, from which new powers (propably consisted of same players, but in new iterations) would emerge. Current Goons mythos is "nothing cant hurt/defeat us, we was, we are, we will be" and that needs to end, not because its "evil", but because that "order" is hurting our "chaos" game in the long run.

Anonymous said...

We are basically inviting everyone to fight us all the time. Rally the players of New Eden against us. Use what you got to win this and we will use everything we have to prevent that. But you guys got to do the first step, because we like it were we are now. And being a little bit annoying like MoA is not going to burn us out.

FYI, I have lost 1 ship while I was ratting (not watching local for 1 minute, classic mistake) and no ship to anyone with the MoA tag (or Anime Masters or the one TEST dude who keeps killing us), and I live in Dek since 1 year. My only contact with MoA dudes outside of reddit is they running away from our fleets or crying about the blob in local. They do not interfere with my gameplay at all. And there are many like me in the Imperium.

Jim L said...

Terrible analogy because no one said "stand and deliver" to them. A better analogy is that you use a purse for a while then when you decide to move to a smaller apartment you give away the purse because you have others you like better. The reason that this analogy is better is that no one is robbing the Goons of SOV. The Goons have long term control over whatever SOV they want.

The reason increasing membership shows you are failing is that you have mentioned many times in the past that the way you think the end result of your Grrrr Goons campaign will happen is that line member Goons will get tired of being poor and always getting their personal ships destroyed and so they will go elsewhere (or quit). Increasing membership indicates you are failing. Line member Goons are not going elsewhere and instead new people are joining.

Gevlon said...

It's EVE. Everyone says "stand and deliver" to everyone. They abandoned those regions because withdrawing organized is better than being evicted.

Goon performance is measured by ratting and PvP. Or you say that if 2x more Goons kill the same rats and same ships, they are somehow stronger?

Not to mention we can't measure Goon numbers as simple alliance size can be extremely inflated by inviting trial account pilots.

Anonymous said...

@Gevlon

All, except for systems held, measures or metrics you could use are a proof your campaign is failing:

1. Members are up and sov blocks know that member numbers are the core of any alliance. All is secondary.
2. Held power is increasing in terms of number of fleets and objectives achieved.
3. Wealth is increasing. People are throwing insane amounts of ISK for trolling, just because they can. And simple line members that die, get reimbursed so they can reship in an instant.
4. Meta influence is increasing - just look at what happens in Amarr/Provi. Just look how nobody dares to seriously challenge goons.

The only metric you can come up (and you do) is number of systems held, which was not forced by enemy, but game mechanic. Saying "goons have lost space" or "moa kills ratters" doesn't change the fact that goons still are the most powerful entity in eve. You need a change in strategy to win, if you even have a victory condition.

Gevlon said...

1: So BRAVE must be a powerhouse.
2: what objectives? The Imperium did absolutely nothing besides ratting and evacuating in the last months. Oh wait, they tried to burn Amarr and had to pay CODE to prevent a total disaster.
3: yes, they are so rich that they fly Harpies. I wish I could afford that.
4: farming Provi is the favorite pasttime of literally everyone. Nobody dares to challenge nobody. Everyone is just RMT-ing and making treaties. Look at http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/RUCA_Emperor/stats ! Since they were formed, they live in the same space, not losing a system. Are you saying that RUCA Emperor is so powerful that nobody dares to challenge them?

In absence of enemies anyone could hold any systems. Goons simply realized that they can't defend so much space from various NPC dwellers and gave up all those regions with their moons and ability to rat.

Anonymous said...

"Also, please save me rhetoric of "You cant understand Goons!" cause its basicly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX5YsLBZxjM"
It's not that you can't, it's that you don't because you actively refuse to. You've got your preconceptions and you still to them.

"Mittens and rest of the "goons brains" knows, that there is only one thing that is dangerous for them and this is change. So they are trying to block any possible change (and I am not speaking about mechanics). They drop "fun fights" like that Providence war, just so they propaganda can say "we are doing something".

But where is the ambition? Where is the willing to change? To risk? To create something above their own limitations. "
How? How do they block change? In many cases they are the reason for change both in mechanics in the meta. Effectively what you're saying is "goons have too much and because they don't throw it all away stupidly and make massively inefficient decisions, they are bad".

"They abandoned those regions because withdrawing organized is better than being evicted."
They abandoned the regions because CCP made individual systems able to handle more active players at any one time. Those systems then became surplus to requirements so they downsized. If they need them again later they will simply take them and evict the current owners.

Anonymous said...

1. Active members which can go on fleets, not empty numbers.
2. Lately? Successful preparation for new sov. They are the only large coalition which managed to do that. Now they're invading Providence.
3. They also have the largest super fleet, so your argument is moot. They fly what works and harpies work better that caps nowadays.
4. Provi is a bad region to have. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be attacked, even for role playing reasons.

Furthermore, the contraction was caused be changes in game rules, not by sudden enemy threat. MOA is where it was always, but only ccp managed to force Cfc to consolidate assets.