Greedy Goblin

Friday, June 26, 2015

The morons of Burn Uedama

A little unrelated note: I think we have the price CODE asked to make a miracle and turn the miserable Burn AmarrNiarja into the numerically successful Burn AmarrNiarjaUedama.

Below you can see the large hauler kills during Burn AmarrNiarjaUedama. Only kills above 2B are listed, because empty ships can be trolls or simply "it's insured, I don't care". Also, they are numerous and I checked the kills manually. Checking 120 was bad enough, I didn't want more. Next to the kills you see the problems with that ship.

The most common problem is tank. The proper fit for a highsec large hauler is max tank, end of story. Yet there are untanked ships (usually with inertia stabilizers), antitanked ones (with cargo expanders decreasing HP), nanofit (which decrease HP and don't even give cargo space) and completely idiotic fits.

There are also numerous other problems, like carrying small cargo that could fit into a transport Tengu or Occator. If it fits, it goes there, even if you haul other stuff too. Putting an 1B deadspace item next to a big heap of veldspar is a bad idea, you'll be ganked for that 1B item. Carry the veld in the freighter and contract the 1B thing to a Tengu alt! Other common problem is being overloaded with expensive cargo, allowing profitable ganks. Finally flying a JF in highsec without exit cyno is dumb. If you lost it to anything but login-trap tornadoes, you didn't have an exit cyno. Catalyst/talos need an optimal warpin, giving you enough time to cyno out. Finally there were some really special snowflakes who managed to get into limited engagement or flew under wardec.

  1. 3B Charon, Antitanked, small cargo
  2. 4B Fenrir, Untanked, small cargo
  3. 4B Obelisk, Antitanked, small cargo, overloaded, not suicide
  4. 3B Charon, Antitanked
  5. 3B Charon, Antitanked
  6. 2B Obelisk, Small cargo
  7. 7B Anshar, Antitanked, JF
  8. 2B Fenrir, Nanofit
  9. 2B Fenrir, Antitanked, Nanofit
  10. 8B Rhea, Antitanked, JF
  11. 2B Charon, Nanofit
  12. 2B Charon, Antitanked, small cargo
  13. 2B Providence, Antitanked
  14. 3B Obelisk, Small cargo
  15. 10B Fenrir, Antitanked, JF, small cargo, overloaded
  16. 6B Orca, Moronfit, small cargo, overloaded
  17. 3B Charon, Antitanked
  18. 5B Obelisk, Nanofit, small cargo, overloaded
  19. 3B Fenrir, OK
  20. 6B Ark, Antitanked, JF
  21. 2B Charon, Antitanked
  22. 2B Providence, Antitanked
  23. 3B Charon, Untanked, small cargo
  24. 7B Obelisk, Overoaded, small cargo
  25. 10B Rhea, Untanked, overloaded, small cargo, JF
  26. 3B Charon, So-so
  27. 3B Charon, Antitanked
  28. 3B Obelisk, Untanked, small cargo, overloaded
  29. 2B Fenrir, Untanked
  30. 5B Fenrir, Small cargo, overloaded
  31. 3B Charon, Untanked, small cargo
  32. 2B Obelisk, Untanked
  33. 2B Charon, Untanked
  34. 9B Charon, Overloaded, small cargo
  35. 2B Charon, So-so
  36. 2B Charon, Untanked
  37. 4B Providence, Idiotfit, overloaded
  38. 4B Fenrir, Overloaded, small cargo
  39. 4B Charon, Untanked, overloaded
  40. 3B Charon, OK
  41. 13B Obelisk, Antitanked, stupidly overloaded
  42. 3B Obelisk, Antitanked, small cargo
  43. 3B Fenrir, Nanofit
  44. 2B Charon, Idiotfit, small cargo
  45. 4B Fenrir, Antitanked, overloaded, small cargo
  46. 3B Obelisk, Small cargo
  47. 3B Charon, Idiotfit
  48. 2B Charon, Nanofit
  49. 9B Anshar, JF, small cargo
  50. 2B Orca, Antitanked, small cargo
  51. 9B Rhea, JF
  52. 6B Charon, Antitanked, overloaded
  53. 7B Anshar, JF, nanofit
  54. 3B Providence, Antitanked, overloaded
  55. 5B Charon, Untanked, overloaded
  56. 5B Orca, Antitanked, overloaded, small cargo
  57. 3B Obelisk, Untanked
  58. 2B Charon, OK
  59. 3B Obelisk, Antitanked, small cargo
  60. 2B Providence, OK
  61. 2B Obelisk, Idiotfit
  62. 6B Nomad, JF, antitanked
  63. 4B Obelisk, Overloaded
  64. 3B Bowhead, So-so
  65. 2B Charon, Antitanked
  66. 2B Charon, Antitanked
  67. 2B Providence, Antitanked
  68. 2B Orca, Antitanked
  69. 7B Obelisk, Antitanked, overloaded
  70. 3B Charon, Nanofit, overloaded, small cargo
  71. 4B Charon, Antitanked
  72. 7B Nomad, JF, Antitanked, overloaded
  73. 2B Fenrir, Antitanked
  74. 4B Providence, Idiot fit, overloaded, small cargo
  75. 3B Obelisk, Antitanked
  76. 2B Obelisk, Untanked
  77. 2B Obelisk, Small cargo
  78. 7B Anshar, JF, antitanked
  79. 6B Ark, JF, antitanked
  80. 2B Charon, Antitanked
  81. 3B Fenrir, Untanked, small cargo
  82. 7B Rhea, JF, Nanofit
  83. 3B Obelisk, Untanked
  84. 3B Providence, Untanked, small cargo
  85. 7B Ark, JF, antitanked
  86. 3B Charon, So-so
  87. 2B Providence, Untanked
  88. 3B Providence, So-so
  89. 2B Obelisk, OK
  90. 2B Obelisk, OK
  91. 7B Rhea, JF, untanked
  92. 2B Charon, Antitanked
  93. 5B Providence, Antitanked, overloaded
  94. 3B Orca, Idiot fit, small cargo
  95. 3B Charon, Antitanked
  96. 5B Orca, Antitanked, overloaded
  97. 2B Fenrir, Antitanked
  98. 2B Obelisk, Untanked
  99. 3B Obelisk, So-so
  100. 3B Charon, Idiot fit, small cargo
  101. 8B Rhea, Antitanked, JF, small cargo
  102. 3B Orca, Antitanked
  103. 3B Obelisk, Antitanked
  104. 6B Nomad, JF, antitanked
  105. 4B Obelisk, Antitank, small cargo, overloaded
  106. 3B Obelisk, OK
  107. 2B Obelisk, OK
  108. 11B Obelisk, Untanked, stupidly overloaded, small cargo
  109. 9B Anshar, Antitanked, JF
  110. 2B Fenrir, Nanofit
  111. 5B Providence, Antitanked, overloaded, small cargo
  112. 9B Anshar, Antitanked, JF
  113. 7B Ark, Antitanked, JF
  114. 7B Charon, Nanofit, overloaded, small cargo
  115. 3B Obelisk, Antitanked, small cargo
  116. 2B Orca, Antitanked
  117. 18B Fenrir, JF, stupidly overloaded, small cargo
  118. 7B Anshar, not suicide gank
  119. 8B Fenrir, Antitanked, stupidly overloaded, small cargo
Ouch, only 8 out of 119 kept the industry standards and 6 tried with some mistakes. The rest (88%) made dumb mistakes that would end their ship on a normal day. It's hard to tell if 88% of the haulers are morons or there were many non-morons who were skipped by gankers and we only see the morons that died, but we can say for sure, that non-morons have little chance to die, even during an organized gank event.

This tells that fighting gankers is pissing against the wind. As long as such abundance of idiots feed them with kills and loot, they'll keep coming. Please don't be a moron and don't fly such ships!

PS: Not exactly a tear, but this SMA minion of the Evil gives us some insight how civilized people they are:


Smokeman said...

Every game is jammed with idiots.

Say what you want about WoW, but at least it doesn't have the perfect storm of "Jammed with idiots." and the meta game of "Manipulating idiots for the win."

This is why you can't defeat the goons. Even if that freakishly happens? Another, more perfectly market forces driven meta group will take it's place to direct the people that just want to make isk and play without thinking a lot.

It's the game design that's the problem. Once I realized that (After playing for 3 months.) I had my "The only winning move is not to play" W.O.P.R. moment. ("War Games" movie reference ala Sugar's blog.)

You need to switch focus to somehow lobby the CSM to convince CCP to fix the design. I have no idea how you could possibly do that... but there it is. That's your win condition. And it's an epic quest.

Gevlon said...

@Smokeman: actually there is a protection against idiots, you can blow up their ships.

Easy Esky said...

You fall into the fallacy which is so common. "I know this, thus anybody who does not is an idiot". Tell me, are you a polymath?

When I played chess, I did so without awareness of opening theory. I played socially and well - but I would be defeated by a "specialist". You seen to think that this is grievous crime to be ignorant of the meta-game? So, because freighter pilots do not waste hours of life polling through a significant amount of (lets be honest) rubbish in the meta. Eve-O, where the in-mates have long since run the asylum? Goon Pravda or Riverini playing at Eve's Randolph Hearst?!

Do you think that hulkageddon was a success for its organisation or the lack on meta-vestment by miners? If every single miner swapped the procurer, it would strangle the bulk much of high-sec piracy. (a dream or a nightmare?) It will never happen. Why dont you pull those skills of yours to use and convince them. "Procure the Day - October 31, 2015".

And even by your own metric, tanked freighters are still dead. So it is not really that meaningful then whether there is a tank or not. Social Game, Video Game - there is actually no difference; unless you really need to be a legend in your own mind.

Jim L said...

Hilarious that you consider my comment that asked if you judge all asocials by their worst members like you judge all members of the CFC by their worst members to be trolling.

You are committing the logical fallacy of false generalization. That you consider it trolling to have that pointed out to you shows your true motivation. You are not interested in truth or accuracy. You are interested in propaganda and deception.

Gevlon said...

@Easy Esky: if you don't know the proper fitting of your profession, you are an idiot. I have no idea how to fit a roaming Broadsword. But since I never roam in a Broadsword, that doesn't make me an idiot. Flying a freighter or mining regularly and fitting without a clue makes you a moron.

@Jim L: a group can and should be judged after its worse member they tolerate to remain a member. Serial killers are imprisoned/executed and I don't remember asocials protesting for them.

Similarly I never mentioned Goons in relation to Erotica 1, despite he was a Goon, but he was kicked for being a horrible person, proving that Goons are not like him.

Anonymous said...

Why does some random donating isk to code mean anything to do with goons? If I were a code lover I could donate 8 times that right now and I'm not a goon. Goons aren't the only people with isk you know

Gevlon said...

CODE never got a donation so high over the years. That's anything but random.

Anonymous said...

what is the proper fit?

Max tanked obelisk 540k (EHP against void s) everything perfect. The stars aligned for everyone.
Freighter got his links in system his pod is full of implants. excluding links and implants the freighter + fit costs 1,6b.
Gankers have godly bump the freighter just spins and doesn't travel more than 10m/s. the fleet is pre heated and every pilot has perfect implants, skills and link in system. all land in optimal range and every volley fully hits.

1.0 you need perfect 245 t1 catalysts 453m isk (3 volleys)
0.8 184 catas for 341m (4 volleys)
0.7 123 catas for 228m (6 volleys)
0.6 92 catas for 170m (8 volleys)
0.5 67 catas for 124m (11 volleys)

Give the cost and warmbody count 10-15% to counter some lack in SP,implants or heat.

In a .5 system they could gank because they can. Even empty overtanked freighters. It is always a 1,6b kill for just ~130m isk concorded. (not counting loot to recycle for future ganks)

If you haul trough .5 or .6 you better don't exceed 200m cargo ever in a overtanked freighter.

EHP isn't everything. For the gank to be successful they need to keep you in optimal range. easy done with freighters (well not always I have seen freighters go hundreds m/s in one direction thanks to bumpers without a clue). It's more the question: What is the proper ship? sure HAULgu. But for example the first OK robotics freighter could have hauled the cargo in two or three DSTs. if you get bumped cycle trough two to three overheated MWD cycles and see for yourself what happens. Ganker warpin is screwed and they would need to suicide web/scram+disrupt (which I have never encountered. maybe the next new meta?)

I don't know how freighter services do it. Huge volume 1b cargo is to risky for me.

Gevlon said...

@Anon: opportunity cost.
If a gank takes 20 minutes, than even with 30M/hour AFK ratting income, 70 people could make 700M. And ganks are rarely done on perfect schedule. Sure, once in a while people say "to hell with that, I'm gonna explode some shit", but as a regular activity, ganking isn't cheap. So it's not that widespread, that's why you can still find people who cry in local: they never got ganked before, maybe for years.

So you can always look at the map and if there isn't a big red dot on your way, you can haul and rightfully expect to not get ganked.

Anonymous said...

"@Anon: opportunity cost."
You keep saying this and it keeps being irrelevant. Most people ganking are also doing their normal money making activities and those who aren't wouldn't be anyway. If opportunity cost is always a factor and always based on what other activity they could be doing even if they don't actually do that, then groups like moa are failing miserably to opportunity cost.

"CODE never got a donation so high over the years. That's anything but random."
So in other words you have no evidence to prove it was goons. Even though goons probably would have paid them more if they had to pay them (which they don't because code is run by goons, wake up) and would have paid them behind the scenes so it could be piped to leadership more easily. I'd be surprised if that wasn't code donating themselves just for the blog story to be honest.

Bluemorphium said...

Just to insert my story of how i lost my jf:
It was a bit more funny than the standard gank. I am a moron, and thought i can be extraordineary cool, and cant get ganked, because i web my jf instant into warp. BUT I got bumped, i am not understanding, what went wrong with my webbing. Here comes the interessting part, i survived the first catalyst gank, only cargo expander fitted. i survived and they keep bumping me. I was lucky, as they bumped me into another grid (gridfu), and i managed to warp out, and they didnt know to which direction, cause i was alone in my gridfu grid. i warped To a station. Unforturnetly my warp seem buggy, and i stood 5 minutes in an infinite warp. I got the feeling something must be wrong and relogged. after reloggt, i realized i am bumped again away from the station, cause they had plenty of time to track me down in the time i was bugged in my client. looks like i was the whole time at the station, but my client showed me over 5 minutes "WARP DRIVE ACTIVE". so "game on" again. This time i was lucky enough (again) and managed to warp out into the direction they bumped me to a moon. From there to a gate, jumped threw, and webbed me into warp to a station. Didnt land into dock range, got bumped again, and after some minutes they came back, this time in a talos gang, to finaly finish me off. After over a hour of fighting and 1 failed gank attempt in catalysts.
Besides i am a moron, who thought they cant catch me, cause my web tactic. And didnt never got the idea of cynoing out.
If they target you, there is no way out, whatever fit you have.
You are right, if they can decide which target they gank (with tank/without tank) they choose the easier one. But if everyone fit tank, they will kill targets regardless of the fit. You only can influess their target decision, like making yourself a harder than other targets. But if you didnt manage to be unworthy to them or harder target than someone else, you lose. They dont let you go, besides some lucky cases here and there.

Greetings bluemorph

Gevlon said...

@Anon: those who gank obviously found a way to keep sustaining themselves while ganking. others, don't. Hence there are surprisingly few gankers.

Yes, I have no evidence that an unmatched donation is related to unmatched performance. But I have a hunch.

Also, CODE must be paid to do something like that, because Taloses aren't raining out of the sky. Someone has to pay for them. Usually it's the idiot with 10B in his Charon. But when they ganked everything that moved, it must have been someone else. Yes, it could be Shadow of xXDeathXx, but again, it's more likely the group that openly bragged about the results of CODE.

Anonymous said...

Well than I simply have some bad luck with the "to hell with that, I'm gonna explode some shit"-type. I lost a bunch of t1 haulers (overtanked and with little value cargo) in .5 and .6 systems within my first month of play. Yes I did learn fast. map statistic skill, map pipes, tank:cargo ratio (my first EVE excelsheet) but still got attempts and some successfully ones. And I got enough gank tries on my Occator. Expensive stuff like exploration deadspace loot I only haul in HAULgus like you do your implants. I don't do heavy industry so I lack industry SP, maybe with that a freighter becomes handy.

Maybe it's my TZ. But to haul stuff in something that doesn't align a bit faster and has the ability to push 1000+ m/s heated seems to me too risky.

Sometimes it feels like gankers don't care at all and want to kill just something. I don't lose ships anymore but I don't haul stupidly multi billions trough space in the slowest thing that can fly in highsec. Since Orca nerf not even an Orca look appealing. improved cloak+mwd and overall a MWD to screw with ganker warpin and optimal range is just to valuable.

Anonymous said...

The 100 billion donation was money a certain former Goon awoxed from Miniluv and was ordered by Miniluv to give it to CODE so he can return to the highsec ganking lifestyle. From a total of 250 billion he took, 150 billion was returned to Miniluv while the rest was ordered by Miniluv to be given to CODE. So yes, in a indirect way, Goons did fund CODE. This was all information published on the TMC site itself.

Anonymous said...

CODE is part of goons, so they got their ships from the same place goons did, it was a preplanned part of the event. Usually they would be in the same system in the same fleets, this time they weren't.

Jim L said...

OK, so you think whole groups can be judged by their worst member. Do you think anyone from MOA has ever said something rude, disgusting, or childish in local chat? If someone produces a transcript of someone from MOA doing so would you denounce the whole group?

Rob said...

So how come if goons paid code to help with their Burn event, they are terrible people and it's all CODE, not goons, etc, etc. Yet you pay moa to do what you want and you take credit for them doing it and that's fine.

Gevlon said...

@Jim L: I would indeed condemn such statement. However I'd remind you that I'm not in MoA, I'm just paying them to kill Goons.

@Rob: where did I say that? I fully accepted the Uedama CODE kills as part of the Burn event, just call it "Burn Uedama" for its location.

Jim L said...

Not condemn the statement, but condemn MOA itself.

You smear all Goons for the words of one random Goon in local chat. Would you smear all members of MOA for the words of one random member in local chat?

Kickass Tivianne said...

Code has it easy, while the antigankers were having a party with BurnNiarja (all 20 something of us) it left CODE with free reign. Kinda like letting giving a monkey a loaded gun and turning it loose in Uedema. Need more AG!! Sign up today! Anti-ganking channel.

Gevlon said...

@Jim L: I would request them to condemn the member. If they wouldn't, I'd condemn their policy of tolerating such members.

@Kickass Tivianne: too bad. CODE used Taloses, Goons used catalysts. Jamming a Talos is bigger loss than a catalyst.

Anonymous said...

You want more AG? Pay better. Goons provides ships and pay per gank, AGs provide no such benefits. In fact the best AG rewards are for being the final blow, encouraging people to split dps to multiple gankers with fast guns which does nothing to stop the ganks just increases their chances of being on a kill.

Anonymous said...

Tanking is pretty irrelevant with current gen mechanics. I'm not even comfortable with my DST and its quarter million EHP.

The only rational defense is to have an organized escort. Figuring out the economics of that is trickier than securing a freighter, or even a replacement.

Anonymous said...

Praise james315