Greedy Goblin

Friday, October 10, 2014

Goonwaffe: "newbie friendly"

It is well-known that Goonwaffe is very newbie friendly. New Goons just clonejump on day 1 to Deklein and try to tackle a Nyx in a Rifter on the same day. These adorable newbies make them unstoppable. Or so said their propaganda.

The somewhat overused July CFC kill database will tell us the truth. Since newbies usually tackle, I changed the usual de-whoring method: everyone on the kill got equal share, even if his damage contribution was zero. With this calculation method, Goonwaffe did 154B damage in July. 429 pilots got on the kills, but since I don't have automatic age downloads (yet) and get them manually from EveWho, I only clicked on the top 175 pilots. They did 144B ISK damage, and I repeat, the tackler got the same value of the kill as the top damage dealer. Without further ado, let's see the contribution of the pilots of different birth years:
Oops! The adorable newbies didn't show up. On the other hand we can see some really old veterans. Before you'd say "but the ignored pilots were surely newbies", I have to remind you that even if they all were, they just did 10B contribution which is about 6%. Also, I sorted the pilots by damage and calculated the average ages of 25 pilot blocks. You can see their birthdays aren't elevating, so it's unreasonable to think that the later blocks are younger:
  1. 30-Jan-2010
  2. 1-Aug-2009
  3. 23-Aug-2009
  4. 17-May-2010
  5. 22-May-2009
  6. 5-Feb-2010
  7. 29-Apr-2009
As an illustration, let's see the top 10 contributors of July, with their birthday and B ISK contribution:
16,5 26-Sep-2005 NeoBob
13,6 14-Mar-2007 Futility 101
7,8 27-Oct-2006 SolusLunes
7,6 5-Dec-2012 Shepard Carver
6,9 17-Jul-2013 BoneyTooth Thompkins ISK-Chip
3,5 28-Dec-2006 Schlampa
3,2 21-Jul-2013 Kate Gompert
3,1 14-Nov-2008 Vatek
3,1 6-Apr-2011 Kyle Myr
2,7 27-Mar-2013 Bob Manbison Fizzlemeat

Where are the newbies I wonder? If I'd have to guess, they existed only during the original Goonfleet creation almost a decade ago. Later they only kept this myth as a badge of honor and an insult against their enemies ("you were defeated by newbies"), without any basis. While they have a few new, active pilots, it's unknown if there are new players behind them, or just the old main is sitting in a titan and the player created an alt for subcap flying. But even if some of them are genuine new players, the majority of the activity comes from 2008-born and older pilots. It's likely that Goonwaffe is one of the most veteran groups in the game.

PS: I must share this:


Anonymous said...

So, you've discovered that... newbies don't constitute the largest portion of people in CFC fleets.. Ok. Where exactly does goon propaganda suggest that this is the case?

Your analysis doesn't undo "newbie friendliness" either. Merely suggests that the lions share of the CFC have played the game for a while. To be expected from the dominant force in a 10 year old game, surely?

All goon propaganda says is that if you are a n00b you can join big fights (which is true).

And if you join big fights you can make a (small) difference (also true).

It runs in contrast to the "elite pvp" organisations who say "if you don't have 60m sp and can fly and archon, you can't join us at all".

That's all..

Anonymous said...

I also need to leave a comment. Everywhere in eve where it comes to pvp you will find nearly no noobs. Thats true for the wardecced miner corp as true as for low sec pirates as for null. Tryed all 3 of them and its always the same. So called noobs are sitting in the belt. The "noobs" in RvB or Brave Newbies are mostly alts of bored vets. Thats my impression and your data proves this.

Babar said...

What was the point of this post? Newbie friendly is not the same as being only newbies. This is so obvious that I've never seen anyone actually argue what you are arguing.

Why don't you do the same analysis for NCdot or Nulli Secunda and see if there's any difference? Then you could actually say that GSF/CFC aren't the most newbie friendly alliances around.

Gevlon said...

@Babar: being newbie friendly means that there are significant amount of newbies around. Can you imagine a kindergarten without any children? Would you call it functional, just because the sign is on and some adults are working in it?

NC. and Nulli are openly not newbie friendly, demanding X million minimum SP.

Babar said...

No, newbie friendly does not mean a significant(whatever that means) amount of newbies around. They are different things. Obviously there is some correlation, but when an organization has been open to newbies for almost 10 years, then of course most of those newbies have now "grown up". Newbie friendly means literally that: It's friendly for new players, they can join up immediately. And this happens every day, so how exactly aren't GSF newbie friendly?

You can't compare it to a kindergarten, since a kindergarten is made especially for kids, and you can't go there anymore when you're above a certain age. If GSF kicked out members older than 2 year, it would be a more appropriate comparison.

Let me make a better comparison: I work for a company that is "graduate" friendly. Around half of the total amount of people we hire every year, are straight out of college. Does that mean that there are a "significant" amount of people straight out of college in our company? No, most people have worked here for 5+ years, and the graduates are a small minority. Which is exactly what you'd expect, and not very surprising.

Gevlon said...

@Babar: just because newbies are allowed to linger and not explicitly rejected, it doesn't mean that it's friendly to them. There is no formal rejection of elderly from the base-jumping community and there are some notable elderly doing base-jumping, but still the vast majority of base-jumpers are youth. The activity itself doesn't suit the average elderly.

Similarly, while GSF does allow newbies in it, it's clear that they don't stick and participate in the activity.

Tiran said...

This isn't a fair conclusion, mainly because you lack anything to compare the data to. In order for GSF to be newbie friendly it needs to beat the average newbie retention of Eve as a whole. If more new players that start in GSF are still around a year later, compared to those players who don't start in that alliance they can definitely call themselves newbie friendly.
Look at that massive spike of 2013 characters, consider many of those were 0 sp newbies last year and now they contribute all that to CFC fleets; looks like newbie retention and a newbie friendly atmosphere at work to me.

A concerned Minmatar said...

From your data, you can only draw conclusions about the relative amount of new characters. You do not have information to draw any conclusion about how friendly they are to those newbies that are present.

While I'm also inclined to believe that their "friendlyness" is nothing but spin, this data doesn't touch on it, unfortunately.

Gevlon said...

@Tiran: fair, but if the newbie retention of EVE would be worse than this, the game would have died many years ago.

@Minmatar: the only measure of friendliness is the amount of newbies staying with them.

Anonymous said...

So a child friendly restaurant must be mostly filled with children, right?

Gevlon said...

A child friendly restaurant without children is clearly doing something wrong.

Tsed said...

So, you're basically saying that characters that have been in game less than 7 months may not be on as many fleets/may not be getting on KMs as much as older line members mostly flying DPS? This is like the most non-shocking info possible.

Yes, once someone can sit in a line-DPS ship, under these stats, they're gonna appear on a whole lot more mails with no effort. Newbies are often going to be in tackle or EWar, the former getting on fewer mails because of tackle range/movement combined with the fact that they probably don't know/aren't in the habit of gun-whoring on primary mails, and the latter not appearing as much due to frequently targeting someone other than the primary.

The real telling thing in this chart is actually the 2013 values. As newbies graduate and fill out their skills, they're sticking around and making a big chunk of the meat of our fleets -- exactly what GSF wants and claims.

(and yeah, the tacklerifterhero is largely a myth at this point, but thanks to the rise of FYF and the like, newbies are still super useful with minimal SP)

Anonymous said...

I think you're confusing correlation with causation. Newbies just suck at pvp and don't end up on mails. As a pilot becomes more experienced, they get more mails.

Gevlon said...

I doubt that anyone can suck at large fleet PvP. I mean if you fail in "click broadcast, press F1", you are not newbie, you are braindead.

Anonymous said...

"I doubt that anyone can suck at large fleet PvP. I mean if you fail in "click broadcast, press F1", you are not newbie, you are braindead."

it is not the job of tackle. and as someone already stated, t1 frigs etc have not the range or they have not the skills to whore on every kill.

also it might be they die very fast.
also if they fly with long range doctrines, it is quite hard for tackle

Anonymous said...

Newbies don't press f1. The fly extremely fragile tackle frigs. Also you have to take into account declining subscriptions overall. Kill board activity stats only show that new pilots don't kill a lot of ships.

Anonymous said...

also it can be they fly logi. some doctrine have low sp doctrine ships. it makes more sense to have them in those ships then some bad dps ship.

Anonymous said...

Newbs should not be flying tackle anyway, IMO. It requires too much skill to pull off without dying in the first 30 seconds of each engagement.

Newbs need experience, which they won't get by sitting in a pod.

Far better to put the new guys in a DPS ship and say "do whatever the FC tells you", or in an ewar ship and contribute from 100km away.

Amy said...

Serpentine, eve training is like being in the warhammer space marines. You start out in the assault squads with fast high-skill combat, and as you become a bittervet you graduate to the devastator and tactical squads. While the financial elite become the heavily armored terminators.

Anonymous said...

The thing is, even if they are newbie friendly, then so what? When you recruit from an outside source what *else* are you going to be exactly? There's nothing impressive about being newbie friendly because you are forced to be. Same goes for dreddit, fweddit, etc etc.

The ones who deserve credit for newbie friendliness are the ones who choose to be, honor, brave, eve uni etc.

Anonymous said...

"A child friendly restaurant without children is clearly doing something wrong."

You have failed to show that there are not any newbies in Goons.

You have shown that what you think they are doing is not there.
You are showing, that unsurprisingly, a large number of the largest corporation in Eve is made up of more experienced players.

In order to make your claim, you need to show that there are no recent recruits to eve in Goons.

You have not shown that. Did you truly believe that the largest sov holding group in Eve was mostly made up of newbies in Rifters?

Unknown said...

How does this data correlate with new EVE subscription numbers? I mean, if you look at Dotlan, ever since the big purge, Goonwaffe membership has been on a decline for the last 7 months:
This may be affected by the new auto-purge system that was put in place, but if there was a sizeable newbie increase you'd think it would show up. I think there hasn't been many newbies joining Goonwaffe. Perhaps take a look at the SA thread and parse it for people considering joining?

I can only speak for my own experience as a newbie, but I was treated rather well by Goonwaffe. Friend sponsored me in, I was showered with ISK (By the first month I had been given over 1.1 billion ISK of isk and free ships, at least), was welcomed on fleets, and if people got mad at me for not knowing anything those people were generally chastised for their behavior. There's a great wiki available, guides written rather frequently, mentorship....

And of course the first thing we always tell newbees is to go off in a cheap ship and die gloriously.