Greedy Goblin

Friday, September 12, 2014

The 70B I made when I was 2 months old

A recent Sugar post reminded me of standings and what I wrote about them more than a year ago. The reason I remembered it is that I calculated how much ISK I saved by this feature: about 70 billion ISK. That's a big number, even by my standards.

Of course, it's strongly related what kind of trading you do. The taxes are 1.5%, which can be decreased to 0.75% by Accounting 5 (0.9 by Accounting 4 which is easy to reach). Broker fees are 1% which can be decreased to 0.75% by Broker relations 5 (0.8% by 4) and down to 0.2% by having perfect standings too. If you just sell items you farm, then having only Accounting 4, Broker Relations 4 and no standings will cost you 1.7% of your income. That won't break anyone. If you are trading with 100% margin (fishing for idiots), than your taxes/fees will eat 4% of your profit (don't forget that you pay broker fee for buying the item at half price). If you are trading with 10% margin (buying in Jita, selling in other hubs) then 27%!!! of your profit will be eaten by taxes and fees. By learning the skills to maximum and getting enough standing for 0.25% broker fee, you decrease this tax loss to 13%.

I mostly trade with low margin, I moved 11T worth of items to earn 700B after-tax income. During my trading life, I paid more than 100B taxes and broker fees. If I'd ignore standings - like Sugar does - that would be another 70B paid to the station NPCs, so reaching 0.2% broker fee in Jita and 0.24-0.28 in other hubs paid well.

The interesting thing is that I made this saving possible when I was an 1-2 months old newbie, while earning my seed money, running distribution missions. That was in 2012 March, more than two years ago. Actually my very first EVE picture shows a Badger II industrial ship doing basic trading and distribution missions. The actions I did when I was a newbie had such effect on my later career.

No other game has this persistence. I don't remember my exact /played value before I stopped playing WoW, but I guess it was around 4000 hours. That's a lot. I've also spent over $1000 on subscription. If I'd resubscribe now, my character would be no stronger than a total newbie who subscribes now, pays $60 for instant top level and farms 10 hours on the island of dailies. Sure, I liked playing WoW. Hell, I might even play again. I got value for my money and time. But everything I've reached in WoW is reseted by the subsequent patches. In EVE, what you earn once is yours until you lose it by bad choices. The game doesn't take power from you by gear resets and level upgrades. This is a design choice that only EVE developers picked and a choice I value.

PS: you might heard that griefers were mass-banned. Of course they are out in the forums posting how they are innocent and victims of the evil conspiracy of Ripard Teg. The best reply: "50% of their harvested tears dropped!"

PS2: confirming that MoA is hellcamped and can't play. Please donate!
Epic fit, epic solar system, epic alliance. I'm stabbed, so I'm safe.


Anonymous said...

I used my WoD pre order lvl90 to make a Resto Shaman, with no healing experience whatsoever. 20 mins later im healing in LFR, shortly after healing SoO. Most pointless exercise in Wow short of Nether wing. I honestly thought it was a great idea until I tried it. I recon the all the reputation groups in wow could be rejigged or stratified to be interesting thought out the whole leveling process like in eve

Anonymous said...

What are you using to total up your taxes paid or total sales?

Orson Brawl said...

I have to admit as a fairly new player (5mil SP) one trillion seems like a crazy number much less 11. But not as crazy add it would have before I started my own inter-regional trade op about a month ago. I personally look at two things. First my margin on sales which is around 20%. The second is my return on investment which is the more interesting number in some ways. I started with 500 mil and now have 4bil in assets for sale a bit less than 4 weeks down the line. I'd be curious as to what your total return on your initial investment has been. It's always good to see another business related post. I love learning from other players. Now I guess I should go grind standings...

Anonymous said...

anon 04:46 and Orson .. read the blog. starting as he said some moons ago.

Also read the "Newbie guide for riches in EVE" in the top menu.

Arrendis said...


You should. I suggest the Amarr/Caldari COSMOS chain as a good way to grind them out, if you have a couple of friends w/higher SP who can bring the required firepower - a pair of heavily-tanked missioning drakes (I know, I know, loldrakes) should be enough.

Many of the items needed can be bought on contract, as well.

And yes, if you want to prioritize Caldari standings for Jita, do the Amarr chain first. Use the fact that allied faction standings increase as well, before you do the direct increases, because of the way the stacking works.

Arrendis said...

Oh! A small addition: looking at the killmails of the deserved-to-get-dead should always be followed up with understanding where they made their mistakes.

As an example, I refer you back to my own analysis of why I got dead in the M-O jb-camp, and still think Gevlon should give those boys a little extra wallet-love for giving him a well-executed kill on a target he really enjoyed seeing die.

In this case, however, I want to take a look for the moment at that tengu kill, and the idea that being careless and lazy is what gets you killed going to high-sec, not Marmite. Marmite's just the instrument of fate that uses your own sloppiness to kill you.

As Gevlon points out, that tengu is warp stabbed. It's nullified. It's cloaky. It will not be caught in open space. Seriously, if you come through a gate or jb, that's the ship that'll get away before you get 5 warp disruptors or 3 warp scramblers on it, because it doesn't care about your bubble, and might cloak before the first ship locks it. He's carrying a 100mn AB - so if you do scram him, he's still running to try to pull range, unless you've got him with a fair number of webs, too. Heck, he's even got maneuverability rigs to cut his align time down by 2s. So what happened here?

The answer lies in the damage dealt: 14,978 from one shooter, 5,151 from the other. 20,129 points of damage, total.

He never turned on his hardeners. Coming out on the Jita undock, he didn't have his hardeners on. He probably didn't think he'd need to turn them on - after all, just turn and get into warp, right? Except, of course, that coming out of a station, you need to decelerate to 125% of max speed before you enter warp. This, by the way, is where webbing lokis are especially dangerous for camping - they don't drop your speed, they drop your max speed. 3 webs on you when you come of the undock? You're going to take longer to get into warp, as opposed to warping almost instantly the way you would if you were triple-webbed warping off a gate.

So, 125% of max speed. And plenty of time for the machariel to have his guns overheated and blinking while he locks. The loki's probably already firing - I'd guess 650mm artillery, but it could have been tracking computer-boosted 420mm autos (the killmail just says 'loki'). And without those hardeners (because right now, there's a loki whittling down the shields, but hey, he's got time, right? No need to panic, just stay calm and you'll get into warp...) . . . BOOM.

1 volley from the Mach probably blew this guy's pod straight sideways into the station.

Moral of the story? Don't be dumb. If you've got a ship that's built to run, a)set up an insta-undock so you can get to open space where you can run. b)turn on your damned hardeners. That tengu build jumps up to about 70k ehp when the hardeners are on. It's not the tankiest tengu out there, obviously, but it's enough to survive that volley and get yourself the 30s of time until those guns cycle again. c)for the love of god, if you're webbed down and being shot at on a station... dock up. Break the lock, take a few minutes, hell, logoff for fifteen, twenty minutes.

Don't be dumb. Don't be lazy. There's a technical term for dumb, lazy pilots: corpses.

Don't be a corpse. Learn from what others do wrong.

Gevlon said...

@Arrendis: Jita 4-4 isn't kickout, so if you get scrambled, you can just redock.

He either forgot that, or got caught on the gate in the way in. Perimiter gate is deadly for cloakies as the huge traffic makes it impossible to cloak.

Arrendis said...

Nope. Totally not a kickout, and he could have - and should have redocked. But I'm betting he thought he could get into warp before the loki could kill him, and while he was decelerating, the machariel locked, with its arties already primed.

Getting caught on the gate's a lot less likely. He's actually faster going from 0-75% (warp initiates) than from undock-125%.

Non-kickout station, a tengu undocks at over 300m/s, and that build has a top speed of about 200 - which means he's got to get down to 250 before webs, and deceleration from above top speed is slower than acceleration through the bottom 50% of your top speed. If that loki got even 1 web on him, he's down under 100m/s top speed, so he needs to decelerate even more.

Bottom line: he died because he was dumb. Not the least dumb bit is: Use a neutral alt.

Arrendis said...

Just a minor point, by the way, and something you should consider addressing: 5.89b of that 20b donated to MOA so far has been donated by MOA.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with people donating to their own alliance in order to ensure the less-successful members have a share in the spoils, but others might look at that and wonder if they're not trying to inflate their donations by a third (as without that 5.89b, the donation board would be at 14.2b. A generous rounding would allow 5b as 1/3 of 15b, as opposed to 5.89b being roughly 41% of 14.2b.)

Anonymous said...

Speaking of the banwave:
Good Job CCP, may the bullies feel the consequences of their doings.

As for patches and skill requirement changes: sometimes you win, sometimes you lose...

And there are so many fights where people act like the worst morons and noobs evah, but shit happens... Has happened before, will happen thereafter...