Greedy Goblin

Friday, June 6, 2014

Income inequality and the poverty of the rich Goons

Goons must be very rich. They control half of nullsec. They have 3500 renters. They came out on top of the largest supercapital battle of Tranquility. Their home space is the best ratting space in EVE and they are busy using it. Very busy:

On the other hand, Goons had mere 700M/year/pilot loss in 2013 and they have SRP. This means that the average pilot would have trouble to replace 700M from his own wallet. Also, their main structure grinder fleet, the "bombless bombers" became a laughing stock for needing 15 pilots to do the work of one dreadnought. They must be impoverished.

How can two completely conflicting statement be true? By a very uneven wealth distribution, probably even more uneven than their PvP activity distribution. The average Goon is rich. The median Goon on the other hand is poor as dirt. What does that mean? For example 1 Goon having 500B assets and 99 others having 500M assets. The average is 5.5B assets, which is pretty nice. But they can't field a 100-men dread fleet, since 99 of them can't even dream of such ship.

The crucial element here is that big part of the Goons are very uninformed about the game. They are "community born", meaning they joined to play with their friends and aren't especially interested in the game mechanics. Also, the usual plague of morons and slackers hit Goons hard as they don't filter them. It takes a drooling idiot to come to Jita under wardec to transport a carrier skillbook and fittings in a frigate. He wouldn't last long in PL or N3, but is actually the mainstay of the Goon armada. The "space socialism" and lack of any standards necessarily caters to such braindead creatures.

The Goon genius is that if you put these things into doctrine ships and by long hours of training make them capable of clicking the primary and press F1, you get a huge fleet that can crush opposition by its numbers. There isn't really a counter to the swarm in a plannable timer battle. Even if you manage to whelp them, they just laugh, reship from SRP and come again. The doctrines are purposefully cheap, so a whelp cost little to the leadership, and the time of these creatures is literally free. It doesn't have any opportunity cost as the only alternative activity they could do without someone guiding them is playing with their pecker.

The total GSF losses in 2013 was 8403B. The GRR project caused to 175B damage to GSF in 5 months, that's 420B in a year, mere 5% of the total GSF losses. But it targets the most vulnerable members. This explains why Goons reacted so hilariously: the rich and smart Goon won't come to highsec. These impoverished morons and slackers do, who rather take twenty-something jumps to Jita to save the markup of VFK and doesn't even have a neutral alt to do it. If we blow them up, they lose large part of their assets, without reimbursement! It's likely that they ragequit or become unable to buy the first doctrine ship which could later be reimbursed.

The "space socialism", like all socialisms, are based on the idea that personal performance isn't relevant, just the memberships and loyalty to the group. They are by nature anti-meritocratic. Their weak point is that morons and slackers feel entitled for welfare. If you blow them up, they expect reimbursement. When they realize that they won't get a dime for that ship they dumbly lost in highsec, they'll be mad. If you tell them to shop in VFK, they cry "ripoff" because they can't understand that selling something in VFK isn't as easy as it is in Jita. They are unable and unwilling to accept responsibility for their losses, so enough personal asset losses can drive them out, hopefully not form the game, just from CFC.

15 comments:

J. H. Cakerice said...

This idea that SRP is for people who otherwise cannot afford to do PvP in alliances is wrong. Goons and everyone else knows that a even person doing l4's or having their own moon doesn't want to loose a tengu every five days during a war (or in the case of goons, peacetime as well last I heard). Active people who fly every night risk a lot more. Thus SRP is made so The Mittani can bluntly say there is no reason for you not to be in fleet. Goons even get double the value of their lost ships, effectively making PvP a full time possibility.
Now, is there probably a large wealth disparity in the CFC? Isn't there everywhere? From my experiences and observations in corporate economic realities, many corps have a few very rich members, or smaller ones one, who in essence controls the entire interior economy of the corp. (enter ore buy back programs and etc. etc.)
Being community born also does not mean that goons are uninformed about the game. Why use bomber less bombers or assign your drones to one guy so you can participate in a station camp while playing battlefield or some other game? Mittani, and the people under him to some extent always seem to like to show EVE that they can do something just because they want to. OTEC started out as a joke and look where it went.
Goons have effectively murdered elite-pvp, yes. I cringe whenever I see a war deccing corp in high sec call themselves "elite empire pvp" because they are a product of a pre-Goon EVE most of the time.
Unfortunately everything the goons have done have made them a powerhouse, and since they've done it they deserve it until someone else can topple them. In the post-Odyssey null the goons are grasping to keep their social programs, they invaded a region for it. Then decided to move into another two. I don't know the exact numbers for what an R64 makes a month but I'm willing to bet that the goons and CFC combined have enough to cover another 175 billion ISK in damages if they wanted to. The renters they could care less about unless a diaspora happens.

mugg said...

"This means that the average pilot would have trouble to replace 700M from his own wallet."

I'm lost, how did you work that out? Would you say the same applies to me when I've lost almost nothing in the last year?

Anonymous said...

Fun fact: The CFC only owns 29% of conquerable nullsec, but don't let facts get in the way of a good story.

Anonymous said...

"the rich and smart Goon won't come to highsec."

I guarantee you that you can find Mynnna in highsec, now, are you saying that Mynnna is not a rich Goon, or that Mynnna is not a smart goon?

Gevlon said...

Mynnna, the pilot doesn't come to highsec. The properly placed NPC and atcorp alts of the player do.

Anonymous said...

Your problem I think is that you see SRP as "welfare" and thus equate the average SRP payout to the amount of money the average goon cannot afford.

However, SRP's in all coalitions are more like the cost to a nation to keep a standing army equipped.

Think about it, a Nation's standing army is equiped by the government. They don't have to pay for their own uniforms, their own armour or their own guns. In fact, they are not only given them but they are given money for it as well. Some "armies" in the world are "bring your own guns" style (generally militias), and they don't work well. You have a mismatch of equipment and skills. It isn't efficient (an efficiency you mention with your sideways swipe at F1'ing - which by the way is something ALL major null powers do and there have been counters to raw numbers in the past)

When it comes to SRP it isn't that the average pilot can't afford to lose, it is that the expectation that membership to the alliance means they don't have to lose. They can invest that 700m they would have spent on paying for ships on other things. Shiny ratting ships, freighters, alts, plexing their account etc.

Of course, the individual line pilot IS in fact paying for the SRP, just not directly. The Goon SRP was for the longest time paid for by moon goo. Moon goo was effectively 100% taxed and not distributed to line pilots in the form of isk. Instead, the money went on paying for the standing fleet, and alliance coffers to form an enormous rainy day fund which has allowed them to ride out economic storms. These days a fair portion of their money comes from renters but the same distribution is maintained. Line goons see a standing fleet in the form of an SRP instead of isk.

Of course if we're drawing parallels between a large organisation in eve and real world governments, there is an argument to be had about whether it is better for a government to decide how the money be spent or better if it be handed back to the individuals to decide how to use it as they see fit...but that is probably an entirely different conversation about how an alliance should organise it's internal political structure.

Gevlon said...

In a real nation most people are not soldiers and pay a few members to fight for them.

If you consider and EVE fleet the army, then who is the "nation"? The ratters? The renters?

Since everyone is a fighter, everyone (supposed to be) in the fleet, SRP is a wealth redistribution between equals. Those who win battles pay it (since they claimed the moons and ratting space) and those who lost their ships get it.

So winners pay it for losers.

Anonymous said...

"Since everyone is a fighter, everyone (supposed to be) in the fleet, SRP is a wealth redistribution between equals. Those who win battles pay it (since they claimed the moons and ratting space) and those who lost their ships get it.

So winners pay it for losers. "

thats not correct. Alliance wealth is not from buttom to top. its from top to buttom. Ally wealth is more then the players. Think about all the R64 etc. taxes is just a small amount.

And not all are participating in fleets. Thats just in a dreaming scenario. There will be allways players who like to PvE more and they give a fuck for pvp. But they contribute on other ways.


Also you do a lot of assumptions. in your blog. thats just all without facts. i could also say white is black, and red is blue.

Tyra said...

I real life, I spend around £200 on board games a year, can you look at that figure and say I can't afford to spend more than that? The truth is if I wanted, I could spend £2000 on games and still not break my bank, but I don't.
So far this year, I lost around 100 million ISK, I can earn that back in an evening without breaking a sweat even without SRP. Why would I want to lose everything I earn, that way I end up never changing the ships I fly, not having the ISK to explore other alt possibilities etc.

It pains me slightly to see someone draw suck faulty conclusions when a moments consideration shows that there are plenty of other possibilities. You know better than this Gevlon, don't sink to the level of tabloid newspapers, knowingly misinterpreting data as if your audience is that stupid.

As an aside, you misunderstand SA: There are goon groupings in hundreds of games, the ones who choose to play in eve do it out of an interest in Eve not because that is the only way to play with other goons.

Anonymous said...

Also, I don't think SRP normally covers the initial acquisition of a ship.

So players would at least have to have the income to cover the initial doctrinal compositions over the course of a war/year. This is probably at least a few different battleships.

Von Keigai said...

[Goons] main structure grinder fleet, the "bombless bombers" became a laughing stock for needing 15 pilots to do the work of one dreadnought. They must be impoverished.

Sigh. You still persist with this, even though you say it all the time and are rebuked in practically every thread.

Bombless bombers are a smart way to do structure grinding. Until you understand that, I can't take your pronouncements seriously. Goons "must be" impoverished because they grind structure in a smart way? Nope, more proof needed.

Bombless bombers as a structure grinding fleet are nothing to laugh at, other than of course the fact that people are out there doing horribly boring structure grinding because of the rules established by CCP. That's funny in its way, especially from my hiding place deep in wspace where such grinding is practically unknown. But it does not reflect ill on those who do it; they are playing to win and they are winning.

Anonymous said...

The only poor goons are the ones who don't care, or bother, to make isk.

I can make 50mil per hour ratting in Dek.

Why in The Mittani's name would I want to go to highsec (other than to gank)??

Gob-
Don't know where you're getting this from "On the other hand, Goons had mere 700M/year/pilot loss in 2013 and they have SRP. This means that the average pilot would have trouble to replace 700M from his own wallet."

You can't average something like that. Comparing my losses (not capital trained) to someone who loses a titan is wrong.

"They are "community born", meaning they joined to play with their friends and aren't especially interested in the game mechanics."

And where do you get the evidence of goons lack of "interest in game mechanics"? From your years experience in the CFC?

Anonymous said...

In a real nation most people are not soldiers and pay a few members to fight for them.

The relative size of the army is not in play here. If a nation was providing equipment for a standing army that made up 100% of it's citizenry, it would still work the same way (impossibility of such a thing not withstanding).

Further, in eve the total size of the alliance does not equal it's effective military strength. It's military strength would be equal to the average number of pilots it can get to commit over a campaign. For the CFC I would be surprised if this is even 10% of their total member base. That is the "size of their army", not their "total member count".

If you consider and EVE fleet the army, then who is the "nation"? The ratters? The renters?

Re-read my comment - I was comparing it to the *funding* of a standing army (the cost of keeping that army equipped).

Since everyone is a fighter, everyone (supposed to be) in the fleet, SRP is a wealth redistribution between equals. Those who win battles pay it (since they claimed the moons and ratting space) and those who lost their ships get it.

This is a gross over simplification and you know it. Not everyone is a fighter. Not everyone is "supposed to be" in the fleet - reality prevents this despite the whole "red pen, all hands on dick" announcements of fleet commanders.

Anonymous said...

Unequal wealth dispersion is no issue that only affects the goons.
Even in hisec corps, people can't be forced to spend their time in Eve efficiently. Which is one of the reasons I have stopped explaining game mechanics to other people, run my own wh, do almost everything except incursions solo...
M&S is not a goon problem and it never was. Eve history and Eve mechanics show us every time that skills don't really matter in fleet pvp. It always was and akways will be a matter of numbers!Bring more hp and more dps to a battlefield and you cannot lose!
Although I can perfectly well understand your bad feelings towards goons, I get more and more respect for the achievements of CFC leadership! They are accepting morons and form fleets with them and are actually successful, or at least the are not downright failing. Why is that? Because apparently goon FC's have found a way to compensate the lack of pvp awesomeness of the individual pilot...
Are they racists? idk, every lowsec shitface hollible piwate laughs at carebears and sees them as fearful lolife scum and worthless shit... Only to hunt in 15 man fleets with t3 cruisers after said carebears flying frigs... 15B going after 20M?

Anonymous said...

Making a distinction between US and THEM is part of every process of identification an every social group. So what?