One Goonie got offended on my "pure blood" references against Goons and demanded me to stop, since they are not racists. Well, have at thee, punk!
Prejudice is judging a person not by his actions or merits, but based on their perceived group membership. Discrimination is denial of social participation or human rights to categories of people based on prejudice. It doesn't matter how good you are, you can't get in, since you belong to "them" and we all "know" that they are bad.
Racism is one form of discrimination and prejudice. It says that certain "races" (ethnic origins) guarantee low performance. "Blacks are dumb, lazy and have criminal tendencies" is a typical racist statement. Sexism is another form. It discriminates and devalues women. "Women should stay in the kitchen!". Being sexist doesn't necessarily mean being racist. Homophobia is judging people for their sexual partner preferences, despite there is no reasonable link between work ethic or intelligence and such preference.
There are many other ways to be discriminative. You can wrong people based on their religion, their disability, their nationality, their language, their age and many other things. These are all different in form, but very alike in their basis "we are superior to them just because".
In a game only your skill and dedication matters. Games are by nature excluding any other basis of distinction. In chess or basketball it doesn't matter what is your background, just how good you are in the game. Games are very meritocratic, therefore very good tools against prejudice. Sports gave lot of chances for discriminated people to prove that they aren't inferior at all. Jesse Owens, an Afro-American athlete defied Hitler himself by winning 4 gold medals on the Berlin Olympics, ruining his plan to use the Olympics for Aryan supremacy propaganda.
Goons are a discriminating and prejudging group, just like racist. It doesn't mean they are racists, just that they are equally wrong and disgusting. Remember, sexists and religious fanatics are like racists too, but they aren't racists.
In the CFC, a completely game-unrelated thing, SA forum membership defines your fate. If you have it, you can enjoy nullsec ownership without obligations. You can join the largest CFC corp without questions and do whatever you wish. If you don't have it, you can only join "pet" (minion, slave) corps and alliances that are forced to serve. They either give enough troops for the conquests of the Goons or they get purged. To be able to comply they must set standards to their members and purge those who are unable to meet it. Goons also have much better access to decision makers, since those are Goons too.
Goon decision makers indeed made a very important and correct choice when preferred participation over killboard ratios. They realized that a bunch of F1-pushers can crush the "elite" in a pre-plannable, timer battle. This allowed them to conquer half nullsec. But this was by the virtue of a few good strategist and not by their "goonhood". Nor the other Goons have any right to enjoy the fruits of this decision, as they had no part making it. Goons aren't racists, but they have the same mindset as racists: "what group you belong defines you". It doesn't matter what you do, how much you achieve, you will always be a "pubbie shitlord" to Goons.
Discrimination and prejudice are evil. It's the very opposite of meritocracy. We should fight it in this silly game we play. We must prove that membership in a forum doesn't stop the bullets of "pubbie shitlords"! There shall be no Goon power in New Eden!
Note: many groups have arbitrary rules. For example you can't get to Dreddit without being a Redditor. The fact alone that SA forum activity is needed for Goonwaffe corp membership isn't problematic. Goonwaffe getting a preferential treatment in CFC is the problem. In HERO you get no special treatment for being in Dreddit, therefore your Reddit membership doesn't define your EVE play.
Finally: I didn't write this to troll that particular Goon. If I wanted tears, I could just dug up some racist statement from a Goon individual as "proof" that they are all racists. But I honestly want them to reform and I hope that he realizes that what they do, is indeed very similar to racism. "Pubbie shitlords" are people too. If he despises discrimination of people because of their color, he should stop discriminating people in EVE because of their out-of-EVE activities.
PS: I mentioned how The Bastion is working to take the "#1 GRR food" title from CO2. Well, CO2 doesn't give that up without a fight. Nor will it be easy to beat the house slaves. But the funniest is SMA. Did this one try to PvP? Really? Hahaha!
Prejudice is judging a person not by his actions or merits, but based on their perceived group membership. Discrimination is denial of social participation or human rights to categories of people based on prejudice. It doesn't matter how good you are, you can't get in, since you belong to "them" and we all "know" that they are bad.
Racism is one form of discrimination and prejudice. It says that certain "races" (ethnic origins) guarantee low performance. "Blacks are dumb, lazy and have criminal tendencies" is a typical racist statement. Sexism is another form. It discriminates and devalues women. "Women should stay in the kitchen!". Being sexist doesn't necessarily mean being racist. Homophobia is judging people for their sexual partner preferences, despite there is no reasonable link between work ethic or intelligence and such preference.
There are many other ways to be discriminative. You can wrong people based on their religion, their disability, their nationality, their language, their age and many other things. These are all different in form, but very alike in their basis "we are superior to them just because".
In a game only your skill and dedication matters. Games are by nature excluding any other basis of distinction. In chess or basketball it doesn't matter what is your background, just how good you are in the game. Games are very meritocratic, therefore very good tools against prejudice. Sports gave lot of chances for discriminated people to prove that they aren't inferior at all. Jesse Owens, an Afro-American athlete defied Hitler himself by winning 4 gold medals on the Berlin Olympics, ruining his plan to use the Olympics for Aryan supremacy propaganda.
Goons are a discriminating and prejudging group, just like racist. It doesn't mean they are racists, just that they are equally wrong and disgusting. Remember, sexists and religious fanatics are like racists too, but they aren't racists.
In the CFC, a completely game-unrelated thing, SA forum membership defines your fate. If you have it, you can enjoy nullsec ownership without obligations. You can join the largest CFC corp without questions and do whatever you wish. If you don't have it, you can only join "pet" (minion, slave) corps and alliances that are forced to serve. They either give enough troops for the conquests of the Goons or they get purged. To be able to comply they must set standards to their members and purge those who are unable to meet it. Goons also have much better access to decision makers, since those are Goons too.
Goon decision makers indeed made a very important and correct choice when preferred participation over killboard ratios. They realized that a bunch of F1-pushers can crush the "elite" in a pre-plannable, timer battle. This allowed them to conquer half nullsec. But this was by the virtue of a few good strategist and not by their "goonhood". Nor the other Goons have any right to enjoy the fruits of this decision, as they had no part making it. Goons aren't racists, but they have the same mindset as racists: "what group you belong defines you". It doesn't matter what you do, how much you achieve, you will always be a "pubbie shitlord" to Goons.
Discrimination and prejudice are evil. It's the very opposite of meritocracy. We should fight it in this silly game we play. We must prove that membership in a forum doesn't stop the bullets of "pubbie shitlords"! There shall be no Goon power in New Eden!
Note: many groups have arbitrary rules. For example you can't get to Dreddit without being a Redditor. The fact alone that SA forum activity is needed for Goonwaffe corp membership isn't problematic. Goonwaffe getting a preferential treatment in CFC is the problem. In HERO you get no special treatment for being in Dreddit, therefore your Reddit membership doesn't define your EVE play.
Finally: I didn't write this to troll that particular Goon. If I wanted tears, I could just dug up some racist statement from a Goon individual as "proof" that they are all racists. But I honestly want them to reform and I hope that he realizes that what they do, is indeed very similar to racism. "Pubbie shitlords" are people too. If he despises discrimination of people because of their color, he should stop discriminating people in EVE because of their out-of-EVE activities.
PS: I mentioned how The Bastion is working to take the "#1 GRR food" title from CO2. Well, CO2 doesn't give that up without a fight. Nor will it be easy to beat the house slaves. But the funniest is SMA. Did this one try to PvP? Really? Hahaha!
20 comments:
Oh where to start?
"Discrimination and prejudice are evil. It's the very opposite of meritocracy." I disagree. I discriminate against known paedophiles when contemplating babysitters and I dont care how good he is at entertaining children...next.
I also discriminate in game alot; Paladin rocking the glyph of inquistion that lowers its damage bonus in return for lasting a bit longer and being easier for a scrub to use? you get a link to icey veins and told to come back when you learnt to play your class properly /kick. No gems? Ah is >>> /kick. Do an a "srs biz" rbg as apposed to a "for fun/for cap" and it turns out you dont have any pvp gear? yeah... sorry Idc about your previous achievments your not coming. I discriminate ALL the time and its improves my quality of life no end. You taught me to do that btw gevlon. Thank you for that. The proper response to tears is laughter and the proper response to begging is to tell them to get lost! Being social is self harm and if they cant pull their weight they are not welcome. Which btw is why goons kick people for low fleet attendance too. I wouldn't describe either me or them as evil for discriminating against people who make our game play experience worse.
"what group you belong defines you"
i think you need do differentiate between labels/groups that you chose and those that you don't.
at least opposed to race or sexual preference, you don't seem to have a problem saying that 'goons' are X or behave like Y even if there might be some goons that don't.
so if you meet a goon that you don't know, you assume that it is X and does Y even though this might not hold true. that's prejudice.
@Nightgerbil: but that's not prejudice. Gems increase stats, so lack of gems is fail, therefore you kick the fails. That's OK.
You aren't kicking gnomes or players without minipet. Having an SA account is like having a minipet.
@Anonymous: those Goons who don't act as Goons shouldn't be Goons. It's like calling communist party members communists. Some of them might just joined because their friends are in and don't agree with communism. But they shouldn't be in the communist party.
Gems increase stats, so lack of gems is fail, therefore you kick the fails. That's OK.
lack of gems is lack of gems, nothing more. that player may be the best player in the world, and better because having no gems pushes him to play harder. if you were being meritocratic, you would let him play and kick him if he was bad. kicking him because you think gems are important is discriminating.
Having an SA account is like having a minipet.
no, having an SA account is like being a member of a group, which is often a requirement to participate in events in real life. hell theres even a shop near me you cant buy anything in unless you are a member. you could have been a goon just by getting an SA account but you didnt so you only have yourself to blame. you knew the requirements and you simply ignored them thinking that if you just demand to be allowed in they would let you. thats pretty dumb.
those Goons who don't act as Goons shouldn't be Goons.
you dont know what acting like goons is. you only know the propaganda you spin. you say they discriminate but honestly ive read more racist and sexist remarks from you than ive ever seen come from a goon.
I don't know if you know this, Gevlon, but SA forums are a breeding ground for SJW types. These kind of morons are the reason feminism, and other minority rights are being set back tens of years.
You might be surprised to find out that SJWs are the reason for why real life movements like OWS flopped. With such 'progressive' policies as the progressive stack, or censorship of dumb pop songs, no wonder.
If you are not aware what the 'social justice' movement belives, head on to the /r/tumblrinaction subreddit.
lack of gems is lack of gems, nothing more. that player may be the best player in the world, and better because having no gems pushes him to play harder. if you were being meritocratic, you would let him play and kick him if he was bad. kicking him because you think gems are important is discriminating.
Err... not even close. I have yet to see one of those good players being anything other than optimal. And even if that was the case, it's still fail on his part.
It's the equivalent of a trust-fund holder going into a restaurant without enough money for his meal. Sure, you might have a bunch in the bank, but guess what, the manager will give zero fucks about that and will still think you're a freeloading punk.
If you don't want to be judged as an idiot, stop being one. this is hardly discrimination, just reality.
chris k.
how is that comparable? a trust fund holder would have no ability to pay for the meal so obviously would not be able to proceed with the transaction. a raid runner is different. someone who joins a group with no gems can still complete the raid and the number of gems they have doesnt decide if they are a good player or not. if a player joined with no gems and you kicked him, thats you deciding that theres no possible way that player can be good enough based off of a single piece of information which has no bearing on his actual level of skill. he could be absolutely spot on with his build and his personal level of skill making him far superior to the rest of your group, but you wouldnt know because you kicked him for having no gems.
its like when i used to play counterstrike. theres a fair few ive played tournaments with that id rather have on my side with nothing but a glock than a whole team of randoms with 16k and a full set of gear.
what you are talking about is taking one attribute and generalizing based on that, just like if you were to boot someone because of their skin color, gender or the way they spoke. meritocracy only works if you actually let people earn their place. if you kick them without knowing anything about them beyond a single visible attribute, i have a hard time understanding how you can think thats not discrimination.
" those Goons who don't act as Goons shouldn't be Goons. It's like calling communist party members communists. Some of them might just joined because their friends are in and don't agree with communism. But they shouldn't be in the communist party."
No, not at all....the communist party has a set of ideals. Joining the communist party if you are a Randian would be illogical.
Joining goons or an affiliated group is like joining the servers most hated raid guild. There is no doctrine, there is no "You must be like this to be with us" (Apart from in the minds of outside viewers). There are many different shades of goons, and the dislike of them from most people is based on hyperbole they have heard elsewhere, and propaganda.
I spoke to someone who really hated goons, wouldnt even speak to them in the chat channels we are in. I asked him why. His answer "They ganked me in hi-sec and are rude in channels".
So, I check his killboard, he got ganked by other people as well, and, he sits in a channel where the people most often kicked are not goons. I ask him if he hates these other people who ganked him, or the ones who get kicked from channels due to their behaviour.
He said no, it was just goons, he knew it was illogical, but he couldnt explain it.
And yet Goons persist and the Lemmings have died.
Having membership standards and requirements isn't racism or prejudice.
You speak like an entitled basement dweller who has never had to deal with true racism or prejudice. Until you've been denied service at a restaurant because of your heritage, had someone spike your lawn because of your skin color, or been stopped by the police for a "routine safety check" whilst doing nothing wrong, you should probably check your priveledge at the door. And before you say, "Pfft, we're past that," all of these things have happened to me in the first half of 2014.
And ever wondered why do we still have racist people in 2014? Maybe because it's OK to prejudge people. Like calling them "basement dweller" without having any idea where they live.
Racism is one FORM of prejudgment and it won't go away without the other forms.
PS: I don't understand why do you have problems with cops doing routine safety checks. They are doing it with me too, despite I'm white. I'd rather have myself checked 100 times than having a rapist or murderer not being checked.
How do you still not understand the difference between the types of discrimination that are negative, such as racism, and membership of a group based on interests. You wouldn't join a football club if you hate football, you wouldn't join a knitting club if you hate knitting, so why would you join a group of SA forum posters if you hate the SA forums?
Basically you are complaining that social groups like to include people who share interests and exclude people without those interests, and are comparing that to racial inequality which is a completely different matter and is something that society is trying to break. That doesn't suddenly mean that every club in the word must immediately start including everybody.
Honestly if you can't understand the difference there's very little hope that you ever will. Everyone else understands it though since its not only simple but it's been explained several times in preschool terms. If you want to join the goons, and be in their social group, you have to share their interests. If you absolutely refuse to share in their interests because you think they are stupid, then why would they simply let you join in? All you would do is sit around complaining how everyone is doing stuff and saying stuff that you don't like.
@Lucas: Your analogy fits to me not being in PL. PL is doing capital hunts and fishing fleets and such, things that I find stupid. Why would I want to kill the titan of some group I've never heard of. I don't play like them, so I shouldn't play with them.
On the other hand what Goons do (large fleets, PvE is accepted, looking at objectives and not ISK ratio) fits my gameplay very well. I could be a useful and fitting member. But I can't, because of some totally unrelated thing: membership on some stupid forum.
But you are all evading the main problem: why does Goonwaffe have preferential treatment? Why no paplinks, why no EVE-standards?
"why does Goonwaffe have preferential treatment?"
because they chose to do so.
But I can't [join goons], because of some totally unrelated thing: membership on some stupid forum.
SA membership is not provably unrelated. You say it is not. They think it is. You have reasons you think it is unrelated. They have reasons they think it is related. He said, she said.
Goons could change that policy. They have not. Therefore they must find value in it. If an entire organization of hundreds of people, many of them quite intelligent, agrees on their own membership standard, then that is good evidence that it does serve some purpose. Who do you think understands Goon culture better: you, or mynnna? You, or Lucas? You, or The Mittani? Don't you think The Mittani could change that policy if he wanted to? Do you think he is stupid?
What objective standards can we use to determine if the SA requirement is related or not? I can think of one: success in game. If a group succeeds in a game in which group cohesion is of paramount importance, that's evidence that whatever they are doing to build group cohesion is related to their success. By this standard, the Goons' insistence on SA appears to work. It builds Goon cohesion. It helps to create and define the "us" and the "them" that is necessary.
@Gevlon
"Your analogy fits to me not being in PL. PL is doing capital hunts and fishing fleets and such, things that I find stupid. Why would I want to kill the titan of some group I've never heard of. I don't play like them, so I shouldn't play with them.
On the other hand what Goons do (large fleets, PvE is accepted, looking at objectives and not ISK ratio) fits my gameplay very well"
While somewhat true, you are only picking up on a single attribute of their groups. Goons like to hang around on SA forums an chat and make jokes and generally just doss around. While you might like a single element of their playstyle, you wouldn't like the rest of it. You could (or previously may have been able to) join either another alliance in the CFC or join a corp in goonswarm.
"But I can't, because of some totally unrelated thing: membership on some stupid forum."
A forum which you could become a member of. And if you would fit in in goonwaffe, you'd be the type of person that would join the forum. But you aren't, so you don't join, which is pretty much the point or membership limitations.
"But you are all evading the main problem: why does Goonwaffe have preferential treatment? Why no paplinks, why no EVE-standards?"
They do have paplinks (or participation stats which is more accurate, since not all CFC alliances use the paplink format). And they have as many standards to ahere to as anyone else. You like to serarate them off, but within the CFC we simply don;t see it. They are there shoulder to shoulder with the rest of us, without fail, so where's the problem?
Serious question, what is it you think we (the non-goonwaffe CFC) do all day? Do you think we just fall into a stasis until goonswarm order us into the field? We rat, we mine, we roam, then when strategic objectives are called, we go into battle. And if our alliance strategic objectives outweigh the coalition objective (rare, but it has happened) we do what we need to survive. At no point do I ever sit there and think "oh god I'm going to have to log on to be forced into fighting for the goons agenda!". The way you come across you seem to think we are banned from playing the game on our own terms. It simply isn't true.
You only need SA membership for goonwaffe. Not for beeing with an other goon corp.
Also think about all the other big alliences out there. for some corps/alliences to join you need to be vouched by several members. and some even have recruiting corps. like also marmite did with lemmings
a lot of allies out there where it is more restricted to join then goons.
And also you dont get purged for not doing pvp. thats just bs talking.
"I could be a useful and fitting member. But I can't, because of some totally unrelated thing: membership on some stupid forum."
You ignore that Goons are a social community first, and EVE players second. I have even seen mild mockery from Goons against those who join SA "just for game".
"Maybe because it's OK to prejudge people. Like calling them "basement dweller" without having any idea where they live."
Apart from the fact "basement dweller" is not meant literally: Anonymous 17:13 didn't call you a basement dweller, he only stated that to him you talked like one. And that was not prejudice, but an opinion formed on cold hard fact: your actual writings in this post and comment thread.
I also find it funny that you rail against prejudice and discrimination, yet you prejudge and discriminate all the time yourself (e.g. against almost anything social).
Von Keigai: "What objective standards can we use to determine if the SA requirement is related or not? I can think of one: success in game. If a group succeeds in a game in which group cohesion is of paramount importance, that's evidence that whatever they are doing to build group cohesion is related to their success."
It is poor quality evidence, though, because we have no experimental control. It may well be that the Goons are succeeding despite the SA baggage. If forum-socialised membership were the secret sauce of success, other entities would be perfectly happy to steal the technique.
Since football is on every mind today: I am sure I could create a football team officially chartered to field only white, native Spaniards. It would work well enough and probably earn me a lot of loyalty from the rotten underbelly of our football fandom - those fans that monkey-chant every time a black player gets the ball. It would be hated by all decent people, shunned by sponsors, and it would probably develop a strong us-against-the-world fascist ethos as a result, leading to considerable internal cohesion.
Would you pat us on the back and praise this 'team-building' policy just because we won some trophies?
Of course it's low quality evidence. But it's the only evidence we have. Unless you have some? If you do, please share.
As for people copying goons, I seem to recall a similar sort of thing was done using reddit. They seemed to do OK with cohesion. As for people copying the Goon formula now, it's rather too late I think. Nullsec is established.
Ah, the race card! It warms my heart to see you throw it out there so eagerly. Truly a SJW! I must point out that racism and "forumism" are two different things. One is considered objectionable by our progressive society; the other is not.
But taking your query at face value, of course I'd have to admit that your trophies were evidence of superior team-building. Maybe not strong evidence -- see above -- but evidence. That's a separate question from whether I'd pat your back or praise your racism. My question is, would you admit it?
It is not commonly known but Hitler actually made a point of shaking Jesse Owens' hand and congratulating him on the win. The "everybody knows" story about this is, as usual, wrong.
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