Greedy Goblin

Thursday, May 1, 2014

It's not about the money, it's about sending a titanic message!

Post-unrelated warning: Darwins Lemmings just got into war with Brothers of Tangra. This is not intentional, corps leaving wardecced alliances (typically: PBLRD) carry their wars over to their new alliance. BoT pilots are advised not to come to highsec until this is resolved (war is surrendered for 1 ISK and surrender accepted). Also, if you leave PBLRD, please surrender the Lemmings war before joining BoT or Northern Associates.



That despicable scammer Alekseyev Karrde has the nerve. He claims that I'm the scammer, who doesn't want to pay them for no other reason than keeping the money. They even sent me a tear harvesting mail where they offered "payment plan" if I have trouble paying them.

I'm refusing to pay Noir because they worked actively against me, in cooperation with the target and only shot them by terms they agreed to (1-2% damage on Concord mails). But how to prove that it's not about the money, that I'm not just using lame excuses like "you killed my own alt more than the targets you were hired to" to avoid paying. I looked at the killboard stat page (that doesn't need program) and found that if I'd pay for every catalyst they pointlessly whored on, I had to pay about 2B. So I could save 2B by not paying. Screw that. How about 20B instead? Not to the filthy scumbags of course, but to you! I've already sent a mail to Chribba (he's on the way to Fanfest) to act as third party in the transaction, but I fully understand if you wait until he verifies receiving the 20B on EVE-O.

What do you have to do for that money? I've heard that Noir got a titan. Kill it! The money goes to the corp wallet of the pilot with highest damage done on the titan of Noir. Of course they are expected to share it with their fleetmates and the one who found it for them, but I can't enforce it, so batphone DPS who won't double-cross you like Noir did to me.

If the titan is not formally in Noir, but in NPC corp or noname corp, you need to provide evidence that it was indeed the Noir titan. A screenshot where it titan bridges a Noir gang is a good start. You will also have to wait 3 days before payment to let people provide counter-evidence. Payment for a titan with Noir tag is instant. This also serves as a warning to blue titans: if you bridge Noir, you might get identified as "Noir's titan" and killed for the bounty: don't!

You have 3 months (up to the end of July) to kill it, after that the money returns to me. This is needed because the titan might not even exists, just Noir bragged about it or because they might get scared and never log it in and this case the money would just rot forever.

The bounty can also be canceled by Noir if they post a public apology for their despicable conduct.

Edit: if the titan pilot abandons Noir and publicly condemns them, he will no longer be considered "Noir's titan" and you can't claim bounty for killing him.

Who can catch the titan most easily? Of course an inside man. Noir guys know the titan pilot name, they know when he'll log in and so on. The problem with scamming scoundrels is that they aren't the men of honor, they would gladly awox a titan for a nice share of 20B, especially if no one can catch the rat who contacted the DPS on a trial account alt.

Happy hunting third parties and happy betraying Noir guys, you are used to it anyway!

By the way I saved this 20B especially as contract fees for Noir. They could get it by about 2 months of honest work. But that filthy excuse of a Gallente being choose to scam me instead, because Goons paid more.


PS: many people doubted in the existence of the tear harvesting mail that broke the camel's back and made me sure that it's not a (very) clumsy error but an on purpose scam. So here it is:

PS2: real mercs hit your target and not your alt.

56 comments:

Esteban said...

You did get scammed and Noir have made a hefty mistake as far as their reputation is concerned. Perhaps the heftiest since the Gods contract put them on the map. This is true even if you do nothing more about them.

However, your reaction puzzles me. It's very... social. It is not about learning, teaching or modifying behaviour. You are lashing out instead of drawing conclusions and moving on with your main project, something the old WoW-era Gevlon would have dismissed as the product of ape subroutines.

EVE changed you.

Gevlon said...

@Esteban: I fully understand why you think that way. But wait and see how this bounty unfolds.

Foo said...

Say as you will do, Do as you will say.

When being involved in reputation disputes, it is the time to ensure your own actions are to a high standard.

*You* offered isk for pods even after the dispute became public. I am not sure I would have made such an offer during 'dispute resolution'.

You have since revoked that offer.

Once you unilaterally offer something, then it does *you* reputational damage.

Stop that. Either offer or don't.

As an aside, even with the display of the new evemail, I still am willing to apply Hanlon's razor.

Isabela Valentine said...

Nothing will come of this effort. The mail wasn't an effort to draw tears at all. It was a genuine attempt to create dialogue and urge you to pay. Instead you freaked out and labelled it a tear extraction attempt. I wish you the best of luck finding our titan.

Anonymous said...

I have read most of the post earlier and what can I add to them? not much other than to say before anyone ever agrees to a contract with noir (used to want to be as cool as noir) they had better demand that noir provide them the details of current and planned contracts (after all don't want noir to slip through a loop hole now would we). I think noir can be trusted provided you do the following:

A: read all their current contracts and future contracts (to make sure no real or imagined conflict of interest)

B: demand to be notified if they choose to share the details/concept/action or any other aspect of the deal you are trying to work out with them

c: you never say deal till you have a final e-mail with every term exactingly spelled out by both sides so that there is "communication" gap

If you do those you can probably trust them

Gevlon said...

@Foo: you are right. But this is beyond the point when I care about my own reputation or ISK. I now just want these filthy scammers burn!

@Isabella: genuine attempt for dialouge without addressing or even mentioning any of the obvious problems, written in the exact tone the New Order and GSF sends their tear mail?

About the titan: you mean you won't log it in? Then I just get my money back. If you log it in, it's dead as your own scammer buddies will race to tackle it and batphone DPS.

Tegiminis said...

Maybe make sure you understand your contract next time?

Lashing out at Noir because of your own lack of business acumen isn't exactly professional. You were the one who accepted that contract. You did not stipulate any terms where Noir could not assist Goons against wardecs; the only terms you offered were kills and ECM.

For someone who decries "irrational socials" as much as you do, you sure are acting like one. Man up.

Hopefully this teaches you to actually read over a contract and close any loopholes. Aleks and Noir weren't in the wrong according to the contract, and you learned the hard way that mercs have no loyalty.

The most important lesson out of all of this? You can't buy friends.

McJigg said...

Noir followed the rules to the letter with disregard to the intent. Like the kids who use a public toilet and throw in the paper towel that clogs if you try to flush it. Walking out they laugh and sheepishly grin at one another because 'there's no exact rule against it, show me where it says in writing I can't'.

I take Gevlon's side in this, and I have no doubt in his ability to get the results he'd like. Should this contract not work, like with anything else, he'll adjust and find a new way.

Gevlon said...

@Tegiminis: is Powers on vacation and you are on propaganda duty here? Why don't you go and write a piece on TMC named "how Noir is right to screw over Gevlon and how GSF recommends everyone to hire Noir against GSF"?

You don't seem to notice that if the TARGET praises the merc, it doesn't give him any good.

Dunamis said...

Interesting development.
Not sure how it's going to turn out, but yet here I am already eagerly looking forward to seeing that killmail materialise.

I'll be honest Gvelon, I'm concerned about a possible negative impact to your reputation over all this - I know you said don't care about that, but other people might. However, I think if you manage to take the titan down, that won't matter and you might even come out of this mess better off than you otherwise would have.

Time will tell though and I wish you luck with this latest endeavour.
I can't say it's definitely not entertaining though. :)

maxim said...

I am not sure i like how Gevlon behaves here.

If i were a merc, i'd be wary of doing business with Gevlon in the future. And in the event i would do business with Gevlon, i'd require him to submit a contract in writing, detailing all the edge cases and possible conflicts of interest.

This is not about Gevlon being right or wrong, victim or non-victim. I agree that Noir did wrong here, and their reputation has taken a nosedive - at least in my eyes.

However, this is not about Noir. This is about Gevlon. Specifically, this is about Gevlon feeling free to make unilateral decisions about the nature of the agreement and then hold me accountable for his own interpretation of events.

Curiously enough, if Gevlon paid 2B according to the letter of the contract and then went ahead and issued an 18B bounty on the Titan, i'd consider Gevlon's reputation clean and Noir getting their just desserts.

Arrendis said...

Maxim:

Exactly. Gevlon's perfectly within his rights to feel like he got cheated, but the facts of the matter are that it was his own sloppy contract that allowed it to happen, and Noir fulfilled the letter of that contract.

Thus, Gevlon becomes the one who is reneging on the deal.

As far as 'edge cases and possible conflicts of interest' go... you should do that anyway. It protects both parties, and avoids issues like the one we're seeing now. If you leave anything up to the mercenary's discretion/interpretation, then you're giving them carte blanche to go right ahead and interpret.

daniel said...

maybe you and noir should have your dispute settled by a third party.
it's tricky to say the least.

though, by counter threatening them, you really depicted yourself the child that many accuse you to be.


anyway, i see a bright future for space lawyers, judges and notaries.


ps
that 20b seem waay to little.

Gevlon said...

@Arrendis: there are no courts in EVE, so even if write a 20 pages contract, they can break it anyway and I can't do anything.

The only defense against scammers is what I'm doing: not paying them and if they bark, put bounty on them.

Arrendis said...

there are no courts in EVE, so even if write a 20 pages contract, they can break it anyway and I can't do anything.

Gevlon, there is one court - the court of public opinion. You have left yourself open to being (accurately) cast as a man who does not pay his debts, and does not honor his agreements.

Sure, that's offset by 'it was one contract where there's an obvious difference of understanding about the terms' - but that applies just as easily to Noir.

Your final agreed-upon contract was for kills on CFC pilots who had a GCC - 2 million per destroyer (with no mention of 'no CONCORD') and 20% of the pods. Now you're refusing to pay it.

One side actually did exactly what they agreed to do - and not one bit more. The other is refusing to honor his end of the deal.

Spin it how you like, that's the facts on the ground, man.

Rammstein said...

"If i were a merc, i'd be wary of doing business with Gevlon in the future. And in the event i would do business with Gevlon, i'd require him to submit a contract in writing, detailing all the edge cases and possible conflicts of interest."

If you were the kind of merc that would do what Noir did here, and so would be worried about losing the contract because of it, then why would Gevlon want to hire you anyway? Your possible negative outcome isn't actually negative at all.

The fact of the matter is that Noir presented themselves as the kind of merc who wants to make their client happy; then when the client was unhappy because they scammed him; they changed their tune and said basically : 'we're mercs, we only obey the letter of the contract, not the spirit, what did you expect?'

That makes them scammers.

maxim said...

@Gevlon
There is a sort of a court in Eve and that is a social court of public opinion.

The question is - how well this "sorta-court" functions and whether appeasing this vague entity is worth losing 2 B out of 20.

If you think it is not worth it, that's your choice :)
It will certainly be interesting to see how that choice unfolds.

However, if you say the Eve-verse is completely lawless, then what makes you say that Noir are in the wrong in anything they do?

There is, after all, no law that you can rely on to separate right from wrong. Just your own opinion, and that isn't worth much.

Gevlon said...

@Arrendis: my position isn't "different understanding of terms".

My position is: "Noir acted maliciously and with scamming intent from the start, so they deserve nothing but a big bounty on their titan."

@Maxim: there is no good choice to me and I thought that being an easy scam mark is worse in EVE than having to call Chribba every time I make a deal. Remember, you can safely deal with me no matter how untrustable I am with a trustable third party.

Rammstein said...

@Maxim:

"However, if you say the Eve-verse is completely lawless, then what makes you say that Noir are in the wrong in anything they do?"

Where did Gevlon say "Noir is in the wrong"?

He calls them "despicable", which clearly just means 'they scammed me and I don't like it'.

maxim said...

@Rammstein
I am not sure how you can call something "despicable" without simultaneously implying that it is wrong. I don't think english language affords that. Well, unless you can give me example of despicable things that are also right or neutral.

If Noir are in the right or neutral, then Gevlon has no grounds to attack them outside of "i didn't like them so i shall harm them" rationale.

Gevlon said...

@Maxim: and I don't. My position is simply: you hit me, I hit you back.

Noir harmed me with their Burn Jita double-agent action, so I harm them back by bringing their name to the mud and by getting their titan killed.

I do not claim to be acting for the greater good, just for myself.

Anonymous said...

I would pay them and never deal with them again. They technically complied with the deal, so they deserve the money, but they also lost credibility as a good faith partner. Dealing with a party not in good faith means that you have to frame the deal in a much more detailed way to remove any possible loophole, which is daunting and time-consuming, and still most likely not bulletproof.

Basically you want to deal with parties which have the reputation of not only respecting the letter of their deals but the spirit too, so that once there is an understanding about what you want you don't have to call a legal department to frame a contract so detailed to avoid getting screwed.

That's also why I would pay: I'd be more interested in mantaining my reputation of trustworthy partner "no matter what", basically writing-off the scam because I value absolutely spotless reputation more. But that's just me, Gevlon's decision is also acceptable: he wants to make sure that parties willing to deal with him know that they have to respect the spirit of the deal if they want the money.

Rammstein said...

" Well, unless you can give me example of despicable things that are also right or neutral."

Sure. EVE has an advertising campaign currently: EVE : Be the villain.

Villains are despicable. Yet, EVE is advertising to "be a villain", so they are also right to be a villain. In a lawless game where you're supposed to be a villain, there's not much point in talking about right or wrong.

I see a lot of people saying that Gevlon should pay Noir despite Noir making themselves his enemy. I wonder how many of them have paid their enemy in real life, without outside coercion to do so?

Let's say the US attacks Mexico. Do you think Mexico's government would, as their last act before losing power, decide to repay their debt to the US, just to show that they were the honorable side in the conflict? Please. (I'm just guessing that hte debt goes that way, maybe the US owes Mexico money, for all I know. The example works better this way)

Or let's say you draw up a contract with me, I pay you some money, and you fix my house's foundation. However, you leave a loophole in the contract by not explicitly forbidding me from mugging you, so right after I pay you, I beat you up and steal the money back. I then say, "you still have to fix my foundation, after all, I did pay you before stealing the money back." Would any of you who think Gevlon should still pay Noir, still fix my foundation in this hypothetical scenario? Since it's your fault for forgetting to include every possible scenario in the contract, despite the fact that this would make the contract so long that it would take longer than a human lifetime to read it?

If you wouldn't pay your enemy in real life, why should someone pay their enemy in EVE?

Stabs said...

I'm astonished that people think Gevlon's reputation will be damaged by this. He has a reputation for writing provocative blog posts and for coming up with zany off-the-wall approaches to games. Like blue geared raiding. And of course for being an expert trader.

What in any of that is going to be hurt by not paying Noir?

It's not like he's Chribba.

Dunamis said...

@Anon-11:33
My personal stance is identical to yours. I'd pay the fees, walk away and never deal with them again; but I like Gevlon's titan hunt idea too.

I think a combination of doing both shows that a) you'll honour your debts and are still trustworthy, and b) if someone fucks you over, you'll fuck them over right back, but with a much bigger impact.
Part a) brings in the allies/customers; part b) shows you mean business if someone tries to screw you. You also walk away reputation intact.

Of course, that's my personal interpretation and I'd be damn sure I'd be using watertight contracts from then on. I'd simply chalk this incident down to a rather annoying learning experience.
This time, Gevlon took the hit so I could learn that lesson without impact on my own resources.

I just hope it doesn't backfire on Gevlon. :/

Anonymous said...

When your business model lies on trust and good faith, relying on loopholes and semantics is not sufficient. As others have said, in order to maintain good reputation, the spirit of an agreement should be honoured, not just the letter.

Many scams could be avoided by the scammed doing their due diligence first. That doesn't mean it wasn't a scam, or that the scammed should be happy about it and continue to do business with the scammer, or that others should feel safe doing business with the scammer.


hmm... people thinking Noir should be paid for their service to Gevlon, a simple scenario for you to consider...

crime boss A hires two independent thugs to interfere with crime boss B's plans.

crime boss B pays independent thug 1 to hamper independent thug 2's efforts.

independent thug 1 kills independent thug 2 then messes with crime boss B's operations for a bit.

does crime boss A:
1) pay independent thug 1 his fee and vow to make more watertight contracts in future.

2) send independent thug 1 for a swim in the deep part of the river, wearing the concrete flippers.

mordis mydaddy said...

Noir. is supposed to be the professionals here. They are saying that if you want to hire them as mercs, you had better understand the merc business better than them so that you can draw up a contract that includes every possible condition.

If Noir. said, "You better make sure to close every loophole and address any possible conflict or we will use it to our advantage," how many people would hire them? As one of the most visible of merc corps, it just gave them all a black eye. Of course, this all goes with playing EVE and "don't trust anyone."

Bobbins said...

Paying Noir on the back of threats would destroy anyones in Eve's reputation.

Also since Noir has very little reputation left why would they actually honour a settlement anyway?

Anonymous said...

The Christian Bible references the letter and the spirit of the law in Romans 2:29 NASB. Though it is not quoted directly, the principle is applied using the words "spirit" and "letter" in context with the legalistic view of the Hebrew Bible. This may be the first recorded use of the phrase.

In the New Testament, Pharisees are seen as people who place the letter of the law above the spirit (Mark 2:3–28, 3:1–6). Thus, "Pharisee" has entered the language as a pejorative for one who does so; the Oxford English Dictionary defines Pharisee with one of the meanings as A person of the spirit or character commonly attributed to the Pharisees in the New Testament; a legalist or formalist. Pharisees are also depicted as being lawless or corrupt (Matthew 23:38); the Greek word used in the verse means lawlessness, and the corresponding Hebrew word means fraud or injustice.

It would appear therefore if your in Noir you are a Pharisee!

Gevlon should not pay the 2B because the Pharisee's knew when they took coin from Goons they were defrauding their earlier client Gevlon.

for reference;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_and_spirit_of_the_law

Anonymous said...

@Anonymous 12:40: I can imagine in some "honour-bound" criminal organization that the due debt is paid to the thug or the thug's family before said thug is sent to the bottom of the river.

Von Keigai said...

That email is not tear-harvesting. It looks completely sincere to me.

Pay them what you agreed to, Gevlon. Already your level of vindictiveness here is astonishing to me. Noir certainly ought to make a public statement about playing both sides during a contract, and that what they did to you -- namely, not informing you of this -- was bad business practice and they won't do it again. However, that is independent of your contract with them. Their reputation is not your problem. Your own reputation is.

provi Miner said...

LOL the whole situation is half funny and half serious.

The serious part is you don't go around preaching how you are a gun for hire then using weasle terms to not do what you were hired to do (the intent rather than the word of the contract).

The funny part is that goblin agreed to a horrible contract those emails to me clearly show that goblin did not vocalize his intent, and Noir was very clearly directing the agreement to a specific end.

What is missing is this: Noir to goblin "what is it you 'want'" and from goblin to Noir "here is what I hope to have happen and would like you to accomplish"

Now some are suggesting that because goblin refuses to pay for the capsules (which I agree he publicly stated he would do) no one can trust him. So what? it isn't like people invest in goblin and as far as I can tell this is the first time goblin didn't have to lead with his ISK. Noir no doubt didn't collect up front for the very obvious reason this was a contract negotiated in bad faith. We the citizens of eve have no reason or need to trust in goblin from in dealing with him.

I am curious goblin had Noir asked for 2b up front would you have been so blase about the whole negotiations?

Anonymous said...

@gevlon - pay them nothing. they were contracted to ECM JAM the targets, not destroy them (except pods). Since they failed to live up to their contractual obligation, you owe them $0.00

Dunamis said...

@Provi miner
As I understand it (at least how I perceive it), Gevlon's reputation would come into play should he need help with a project of his.

If other merc corps start to see him as a poor quality client, they may not accept his contracts, regardless of ISK value. A client who has a reputation of not paying won't be someone they'll want to work for, even if the client had all the money in the game.

That's what I'd hate to see happen, as I enjoy reading about how these stories/projects/plans play out, but Gevlon can't single-handedly do everything himself.
At times, he needs assistance and that's where mercs are handy. Of course, he could always form his own Goblin corp, but he's stated in the past he doesn't want to do that. So, mercs it is.

Unless I've missed something, I would personally keep my own reputation in my mind, but that's me.
I don't think Gevlon cares so much though and is now free to call me a silly social. :D

Dunamis said...

I want to clarify too that, in my opinion, Gevlon sure as hell shouldn't pay for any kills that have no ECM'ing.

My thoughts are to only pay for ECM jammed ships and pod kills, as that was what Gevlon requested with the original contract.

Provi Miner said...

@ dunamis, I highly doubt that anyone will work for goblin without a shit ton of upfront disclosures and ISK again. To be honest as I said Noir didn't take the isk because, I suspect, they knew they were playing with fire. Had they taken upfront isk I feel that goblin would have made a better contract, and Noir would have been more upfront. Again it is just my thoughts, in eve it seems written agreements are pretty pointless unless isk transfers with them.

Anonymous said...

@Dunamis: "If other merc corps start to see him as a poor quality client, they may not accept his contracts, regardless of ISK value. A client who has a reputation of not paying won't be someone they'll want to work for"

The same applies to Noir's reputation: if others start to see them as a poor quality merc corp they might receive less offers. A merc corp which has a reputation of not respecting the spirit of their contracts and abuses loopholes to wilfully go against it won't be someone you want to employ.

Dunamis said...

@Provi miner
It's quite likely, yea. Seems like a shame, but at least for Gevlon he has the resources to put that ISK upfront.
Might be open a bit open to scams, but if the Titan bounty works, people might be wary of actually scamming him. :)

Anonymous said...

this has no way to back fire on gevlon what so ever,what are you going to do wardeck his station trader?

best move ever

Anonymous said...

I close huge real estate deals in meat space. I am selling a $38 million deal today. Needless to say, I deal with huge contracts on a daily basis.

It all boils down to acting in good faith. Noir did not act in good faith and certainly didn't have Gevlon's best interests in mind when doing what they do. Many will say that they have no duty to promote Gevlon's best interests. I disagree, signing the contract in the first place obligates them to promote Gevlon's best interests.

As someone mentioned, there is no legal system in Eve. In the real world if someone were to act in this way they would be sued. Because of Eve's limitations, the only recourse Gevlon has is to withold payment. I say he is perfectly within in his rights to do so, given the lack of other avenues available to him.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Gevlon Goblin refusing to pay them, they were dishonest in their dealings with him, which is especially bad as he is a proven long term customer. Noir wanted the cake and to eat it too, they were too smart for their own good here, simply put how can anyone trust them after this.

Anonymous said...

Here is goblins biggest problem:

Update2: they indeed podded some CFC which hurts CFC, therefore deserves payment. (Ship whoring does not). I will pay that part when I have the killboard data or if Noir sends me a list of podkills.

I think (just my opinion) he should pay noir for the part of the contract that they actually full filled.

Anonymous said...

I fail to see how noir will lose out on this as they have literally no competition left in eve. Like it or not, they are the only true mercs left in the game. I urge anyone to prove otherwise! There are groups like marmite around that are basically just watered down versions of privateers and orphanage and won't really peruse anything outside of the major trade hubs. PL and BL sometimes offer merc services but only part time and when it suits them. Add to that, Noir have long standing relationships with all the major players in eve. I don't see how this can damage them whatsoever.

Basil said...

This is an interesting experiment in social game theory. Gevlon risks the possibility of Noir convincing people he might eventually want trusting him that he's not trustworthy. That said, this only affects his ability to spend money, not to earn it. If he pays up front for mercs, for example, he'll never find one to turn him down, however he'll risk whatever he fronts them.

Anonymous said...

@Anonymous 18:22: it's not like there is a huge barrier-to-entry. Today you're the only one left, tomorrow a dozen more might appear.

Anonymous said...

I am surprised as of why people would recommend Gevlon to pay the fees, except if it serves their own self-interest.

Noir were double agents. They have misled him.
By not paying, Gevlon makes a statement. Future mercs will know that there are consequences if they do not take his interests in heart, when they make a deal.
If Gevlon pays, he would admit that he is satisfied with poor(dis)service.

Gevlon actually performs a form of quality control.

Anonymous said...

I help run a mercenary organization. If there is ever a potential conflict of interest we are professional enough to notify our employer and discuss it with them. More often than not they are fine with it as long as we get our work done. Noir. didn't seem to do a very thorough job to begin with so while they "fulfilled" their contract they certainly ruined the trust of a very lucrative employer. They could have waited until after their contract with Gevlon was done and began operations with GSF, but instead they created all these problems through un-professionalism. Many say "this is just a game" but when your livelihood is staked on your reputation you can't be doing these types of things.

Maxim Preobrazhenskiy said...

@Gevlon
I understand you are defending your own self-interest here.

I am just saying that doing business with people who are openly motivated by only self-interest costs more than doing business with people who are known to strictly follow some sort of business-ethical code.

Sure, i can do business with you by jumping through a loophole that is Chribba. But now i have to jump through that loophole every time i want to do business with you :(. Or risk your random reprisals every time you feel i looked at you wrong.

Transactional costs are a real thing. You just increased them.

@Rammstein
<< Sure. EVE has an advertising campaign currently: EVE : Be the villain. Villains are despicable. >>
Not in Eve-space they are not, apparently. Which i guess is your point.
Gevlon, however, is not calling Noir "Eve-villains lol". He is transmitting very RL spite.

<< Let's say the US attacks Mexico. >>
That would be RL-despicable and would create a situation orders of magnitude more complex than Noir's little scam.

Also your sense of scale is way off. What Noir did cannot be compared to a direct military attack. It is rather something like giving support to pirates in Mexico Bay.

And since Mexico's only real shot at defending in this situation would be to paint USA the villain and get the rest of the world to gang up on them, a scenario in which they choose to pay back the debt in order to sever economic ties with their enemy and maintain image is not all that unlikely.

<< Or let's say you draw up a contract with me, I pay you some money, and you fix my house's foundation. However, you leave a loophole in the contract by not explicitly forbidding me from mugging you, so right after I pay you, I beat you up and steal the money back. >>

There is no such thing as "loophole in contract that allows mugging". Contracts are viable because they are enforced by a higher level system that forbids mugging on a system level.

Also that's two separate transactions. First transaction - money for work. Second transaction - mugging. Until second transaction happens, nobody involved has any right to not make good on the first.

Now, if you were to mug me WHILE doing the work on the home, that would make further transactions problematic. What i would do in this situation is count the damage done to me by your actions (including moral damage), substract that damage from amount of money i owe you for work already done, and then take you to court that would decide whether you pay me back or go to prison or whatever else.

In Eve, there is no higher level system that punishes mugging, except damage to your reputation among industrial circles. And there is no "court" except willingness of people to go after a bounty put on your head.
However, the process is still the same.

It is just that Gevlon appears to think that Noir's little scam damaged him far more than 2B and wants the satisfaction of seeing their Titan destroyed.

<< If you wouldn't pay your enemy in real life, why should someone pay their enemy in EVE? >>
"Enemy" is such a strong word. Becoming my "enemy" in real life would take inflicting or threatening to inflict actual physical harm on someone or something i hold dear.

The only thing Noir did was inflicting harm on ego. And ego apparently is held dear enough to call someone an enemy over harm to it :/

Foo said...

Gevlon has understated his reasons to be mad.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/38440467/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/38437902/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/38426611/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/38426617/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/38423392/

Yes, I think it was dumb of Gevlon to offer to pay anything. He did so in the heat of the moment then thought better of it.

If I hired anyone to fight for me, and during the contract they killed *my ships* *5* times, those I hired would not see a dime of isk from me either.

N'Hoj Greb said...

I can assure you my mail was not an attemp to harvest tears. My intentions were to inform you that we felt we had completed our part of the contract and that it was time for you to pay us and also give you a person to talk if you didn't want to talk to Alek (or blocked him.)

I specifically tried to keep the tone civil and formal since this was the first time I ever contacted you and I was speaking for the entire alliance. I wanted to make the formal introduction in the initial mail, and maybe take on a more personal tone in upcoming contacts. Pretty much how you would handle business away from EVE. If you felt that I was mimicking the style of Tear Harvesters maybe EVE has made you too cynical? The only part that was not written with 100% sincerity was the part of you maybe not having the isk on hand to pay us in time. I do apologize if that came through as unprofessional.

Dirty Rotten Sneaky Bastard said...

I Think you should pay the 2b and then never deal with them again. They did fulfill the terms of the contract so they should get the money. However, the "double-Agent" style in which they did it should also be addressed. Hence the bounty is in order and they lose a return customer to boot.
Should have hired PL as they like shooting Goons anyway. The Bonus being is a lot of N3 would have tagged along as well.

Gevlon said...

@N'Hoj Greb: your mail indicates that Noir considered the contract complete and that payment is due.

This is either an attempt to close a scam or a tear harvest, as the contract was anything but complete.

Note: the contract will be complete when your titan is a wreck and your name is deep in the mud enough that even a 1 day old newbie wouldn't hire you.

Anonymous said...

Gevlon

I say you should pay the 2 billion, not because Noir deserves it but because they don't. Paying it will show in even starker terms that they just don't have a case. Right now they are taking big damage in the metagame and being defended only by a small number of space lawyer types. Make the payment and change nothing else.

You will be 2 bill down but Noir and the Goonagandists will not have a leg to stand on. And it will take them at least 24 hours to come up with something else...

As to the space lawyers, if you really believe that a real world contract has an explicit term for every single possibility then there's a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell ya.

Rammstein said...

@last anonymous: "I say you should pay the 2 billion, not because Noir deserves it but because they don't."

I also do not deserve 2 Billion ISK, will you pay me 2 billion isk because I don't deserve it? Better yet, make it 50 billion ISK, I *really* don't deserve that.

If you won't pay me 50 billion ISK because I don't deserve it, perhaps you should be less inclined to tell other people to pay people ISK who you agree don't deserve it.

Anonymous said...

@Gevlon - Have you watch the film "Ransom" with Mel Gibson? This is very.... ransomy.

Whilst I have no preference in which way this unfolds, it is entertaining and """Content Creating""" so props for that.

Also, whilst I happen to disagree with some of the things you say/do, I'm obliged to tip my hat at not paying 2b for a scam, but instead dropping 20b. Never thought I'd say this, but I like the cut of your jib. Respect.

Anonymous said...

Even I know that Botslayer Goblin is Gevlon's alt and I just read this blog, I don't belong to lemmings and have never fought with Gevlon. I cannot believe that Noir. were unaware of this especially as they'd fought with Gevlon before.

Deliberately killing and podding your employer when you're under contract as a mercenary then expecting to get paid?