Wednesday, April 23, 2014

Get Burned in Jita announced

Goons did not learn from the high losses last year and announced that on this weekend they will organize the third Burn Jita. I wrote already how can you turn this event into "got Burned in Jita". This post is just a reminder and summary.

The first thing is to remember that despite minimal organized anti-Goon defense, the Goons reached pitiful 62% ISK ratio last year, which is a bad joke for suicide gankers. They are very far from being invincible, they are actually on the verge of complete disaster, held back only by propaganda. Most people who could turn it into a massacre didn't dare to show up, believing that they'll be fighting an uphill battle. So don't be scared, Goons are in a very bad shape already! I loved how Warr Akini tried to spin their recent loss of highsec POCOs: "Special thanks also go out to my right-hand honky Powers Sa for being a trooper on the POCO defenses in past months and helping us transfer them to RvB as a token of goodwill". They were defeated once in highsec this year. Time to finish their pitiful griefer pride march!

Secondly, they will have anti-wardec fleets, probably with their highsec slaves RvB. If you are a war target, do not try to battle them, use disposable ships and pods to grab a kill or two before going down.

Thirdly: if you are not a war target, you can have a massacre using ECM ships. Get green jammers on a Blackbird or Scorpion with brick armor tank, set safety to green to prevent accidents, prelock Goon Taloses and Brutixes and when they go GCC, jam them out.

Most importantly: the Burn Jita is a pogrom. Goons want to drink "highsec pubbie tears". Give them a finger with a troll freighter or Orca. Platinum insure it, put a double-wrapped package in it with a Damage Control I inside and fly in and out. Get a clean pod. Troll goons after they wasted a fleet for an empty freighter. They lose more ISK than you do, you can simply wear them down. The total defeat of Burn Jita will happen not if every Goon explodes, but if local is full of freighters spamming: "shoot me Goons". While PvP-ers can ruin the day of the Goon reimbursement department, only gunless "highsec pubbies" can ruin the day of the line Goon. Laugh into their face when they find the DCI in your wreck, grab a new freighter and do it again until they give up!

Remember! Burn Jita is a central event for the Goons. Take it from them and they'll have nothing but a bombless bomber, a paplink and multi-million HP structures to grind. The belief that they can ruin your game makes them log in. Prove them wrong, laugh at them, troll them and they'll be gone for good!

Focus your effort on Friday, the first day! If the killboards fill up with dead Goons and very few successful ganks, the majority of the Goons who can play on weekend will not "feel like" joining. On the other hand if you let them get kills on the first day, you'll face a self-confident and bloodthirsty swarm on Saturday.

Update: I checked GSF pod losses in 2013 Burn Jita. Goons are dumb, despite they were told to use empty pods, their average pod value was 55M. 366 pods were lost, 206 were indeed empty or just a cheap +1% hardwiring, but the remaining 160 had significant value, featuring a full crystal which is perfect for a suicide Thrasher. There is also an incomplete crystal, +5 learning with 5x5% HW, +4 learning with 5x5% HW, another one. What I mean is that it pays to sit next a gate with a ganky Thrasher and grab Goon pods.

I hope the nullsec and lowsec enemies of Goons realize how vulnerable Goons are in Burn Jita and how important it is to them and come and ruin it. This is the best time to hit the bad Goons hard!

One more thing: stop writing tear crap! Goons feed on it! Posts that emanate helplessness and beg for CCP help make Goons feel big and strong. Instead, kill them or feed them troll freighters!


PS: unrelated real life research about why the poor remains poor. Poor families give more pocket money for their kids and buy more toys to them than rich families, not only wasting their money, but teaching the poor kid to waste all their money on "fun".

38 comments:

Arrendis said...

PS: unrelated real life research about why the poor remains poor. Poor families give more pocket money for their kids and buy more toys to them than rich families, not only wasting their money, but teaching the poor kid to waste all their money on "fun".

Actually, that shows nothing of the sort.

On that initial graph, there's nothing in those numbers that illustrates the parents' spending on their kids. Are the rich kids receiving less money because they're actually being given less, or because the vast majority of the things that get bought for them are being purchased by their parents (potentially by the parents handing a credit card to a caretaker like a nanny, and having them take the kids shopping)?

Next, let's look at the second graph: Proportion of kids using their money to buy toys, put in bank, or save towards a big item.

First, it's a 4000 child survey of varying ages - so we have no idea what the age breakdowns of those responses are. Are younger children skewing the results more toward impulse buys? Are older children doing the opposite? We don't know, and that makes it difficult to evaluate what those numbers actually mean.

Secondly, we don't know what amounts that spending comes in. Let's look at households making under 50K: 49% of kids say they're buying toys, 33% say they're putting money in the bank, and 25% say they're saving for a large purchase.

So that accounts for 107% of kids in households making less than 50,000/year.

Or there's some overlap, because 51% of kids said they weren't buying toys, 67% said they weren't putting money in the bank, and 75% said they weren't saving for a big purchase. So what does that mean? What are they doing with their money? We don't know.

Moreover, we don't know how much overlap there is, or how the proportions work. If a kid's putting 90% of his money in the bank - with the intention of spending it when he's got enough for a bike - and spending 5% of toys, he might have answered 'yes' to all three.

Bottom line, Gevlon: The overview for this report is utter crap, and you can't use it to draw meaningful conclusions. Maybe the report itself is more complete, but what they've made public is garbage.

As for Burn Jita... we've covered this many, many times. If you're using ISK efficiency as a metric for success, you will never understand Burn Jita, and you cannot defeat it if the way you oppose it is precisely what we want you to do.

provi Miner said...

To simplifi: 1: troll goons 2: make them lose isk

Anonymous said...

Well I will be in Jita shooting everyone, I am not goon or CFC related.

You must be drinking some really special sauce to believe what you have written.

"Goons reached pitiful 62% ISK ratio last year, which is a bad joke for suicide gankers. They are very far from being invincible, they are actually on the verge of complete disaster"

They don't give a shit. Isk Ratio means nothing. They are not competing with other gankers or even relating to them. Stop comparing apples to oranges.

"Troll goons after they wasted a fleet for an empty freighter"

As Arrendis said, Please do this. Again they don't care if its empty, you loose a freighter they loose nothing. I get to shoot at all.

Unfortunately you still fail to understand motivation in EVE, most things (90% or more) cannot be worked out by graphs or numbers and especially not Killboards.

Anonymous said...

I think you truly are going to be surprised when people do try to follow your advice. Goons don't care about efficiency, they just want to blow stuff up. While you may claim you reached success trolling them, it is their objective you'll be fulfilling.

Gevlon said...

Line Goons don't give a damn about ISK ratio. Luckily, line Goons also don't give a damn about buying and fitting ganky ships or lead ganks, otherwise they would gank outside of Burn Jita.

Burn Jita happens because the Goon LEADERSHIP is buying ships, fitting them and leading the fleets. And they very much care about costs. 62% ISK ratio means: "for every 62B kills we have to pay 38B from the alliance coffers"

Bombless bombers say: "those coffers aren't full".

So, if people take my advice and throw troll freighters to Goons, 99% of the Goons will be very happy and only 1% will be upset. Unfortunately that 1% is calling the shots in CFC, so there won't be Burn Jita next year.

Louis Robichaud said...

... but it's a morale boosting event. If 99% of happy, the 1% leadership may wince a bit at the cost but declare it a success since the troops are happy!

Your advice is going to well... cause more fun. The ECM jammers will have chuckles, some carebears may try combat for the first time - and *some* of them might grow to like it! And the goons will revel in the mayhem.

So please everyone, follow Gevlon's advice. It will be a blast!

Maybe a few more years of this and Burn Jita will be a ginormous brawl with almost no ganked victims but instead everyone shooting everyone in the face. Wouldn't that be awesome? :)

I think transforming Burn Jita is a much more laudable goal than trying to "ruin it for the goons"...

Babar said...

If 99% of Goons are happy with Burn Jita, it'll be a massive, massive success. ISK efficiency doesn't matter, since the whole project is doomed to lose money, no matter what. Burn Jita is a fun event for CFC, it's a way to reward their players. The whole point of Burn Jita is to motivate the troops, not to get above some red line of ISK efficiency.

If you look at write ups of the previous Burn Jita's, ISK efficiency isn't mentioned anywhere but on this blog. That's because it's meaningless. Things like ISK killed, number of freighters/jump freighters killed, trade disrupted and so on are what's important.

Just a few simple questions: What do you think the point of Burn Jita from CFC's perspective is? And why do you think ISK efficiency matters to Goon leadership?

Anonymous said...

Some shitty calculations,

A freighter costs rougly about 1b to buy from Jita, it gets destroyed by 100 T1 catalysts (100 T1 catalysts is almost 100% overkill) and 100 T1 catalysts cost about 300m add in work of fitting them and transporting and shit, lets say its 500m.

So you are calling everyone to throw 1b of isk for 500m?

Or do you excpect that "grr goon" haters have more ISK than Goons in general and want burn out their funds?

You as business man, should also know that the investement is made already by goons, they have put in certain amount of ISK and they have their expectations, but as far as I see the event advertised, it all is considered as lost ISK already.

What exactly are you trying to achieve, but rather to feed the kills for Goons they are after in Jita?

Or can we tinfoil and say you are Goons alt and very good troll?

Anonymous said...

Gevlon,
I think you've misread the Australian study.
Low income children have almost the same pocket money (i.e. gift from parents) as others.
Where they get ahead is in paid work (real jobs) and extra money for school - which probably indicates government subsidies (Austudy, Abstudy, etc).
Take this out, and the difference is about a buck a week. For comaparison, a Macdonalds meal costs $8,and a cup of coffee $3.50.
The extra money spent on toys may well be an indication that they aren't given as much stuff as the kids with rich parents, and have to buy their own.

Anonymous said...

"Line Goons don't give a damn about ISK ratio. Luckily, line Goons also don't give a damn about buying and fitting ganky ships or lead ganks, otherwise they would gank outside of Burn Jita.

Burn Jita happens because the Goon LEADERSHIP is buying ships, fitting them and leading the fleets. And they very much care about costs. 62% ISK ratio means: "for every 62B kills we have to pay 38B from the alliance coffers""

You are wrong here. It is the other way around. They only care for isk ration outside burn jita with their freighter ganks. otherwise their highsec-ganking-wing would make no sense.
Burn jita is not efficient isk wise. It is efficient in creating a massacre and chaos.

I observed it last year and I had really fun. I whored on kills, I looted wrecks etc.
And guess what? They suddenly started also ganking me, and others nearby.
I have a friend in CFC, and they all get ships provided for freeee. If you look at last years killboards, you will see, that there are more ships on the freighter per kill then needed. They just use their numbers.

If you advice to come with scorpion, lol, I wanna see when the first scorp dies to a small catalyst gang. you are just feeding them even more.

and please do some statistics how cfc polished lemmings and marmites killboards ;)

it will be fun, just enjoy it. And it is content for the community. If you dont see that, I guess you even have no fun during sex.

Lucas Kell said...

@Gevlon
First off, your isk graph is off. I'm not sure if that's your usual normalised numbers or just incomplete data though, but note that at least half of the kills achieved during Burn Jita are on NPC alts built specifically for Burn Jita.

"Burn Jita happens because the Goon LEADERSHIP is buying ships, fitting them and leading the fleets. And they very much care about costs. 62% ISK ratio means: "for every 62B kills we have to pay 38B from the alliance coffers""
They really don't care. I mean for starters they make enough off Burn Jita to cover the losses, but secondly, the costs are miniscule. The Burn Jita war chest is built up all year round, which is why there are already over 10000 ships already built and waiting to be taken out.

But by all means, please be there. You'll even get a few opportunities to shoot at me.

Gevlon said...

The freighter has insurance, so the actual loss is around 3-400M. You can get a lot back if you start selling your kill rights for 10-20M each (it doesn't matter if the buyer can't kill with it).

If Burn Jita costs would be so irrelevant, why there is only one Burn Jita a year? I mean it's so much fun, why not have one every month?

Simple: because Goons can't afford it.

Lucas Kell said...

"If Burn Jita costs would be so irrelevant, why there is only one Burn Jita a year? I mean it's so much fun, why not have one every month?"
It would soon get boring. There is such a thing as "too much of a good thing". You make a lot of assumptions about how much it costs and how much isk we make. If you have evidence of our poverty, by all means prove it. But just going "ha! bombless bombers" and "no Burn Jita every month? peasants", that isn't proof, that's propaganda, and it's bad propaganda at that.

Babar said...

You're making assumptions you cannot back up. If it was every month, it wouldn't be special at all, and people would get bored. And good luck trying to get people to fit 10000 ships every month.

Burn Jita obviously costs ISK, but it's money that has been specifically set aside for it. Even if it was viable to have a Burn Jita every month, but CFC couldn't afford it, how does this in any way prove your points? It's expensive and a net loss for the CFC, but we know that already. How does a 62% or a 80% ISK efficiency change anything?

Gevlon said...

@Babar: I'm not sure that you notice that "good luck trying to get people to fit 10000 ships every month" is literally "it's too expensive".

My point is: Goons can afford X ISK to be spent on Burn Jita. The amount of destroyed targets is R*(1-R)*X, R being ISK ratio. By decreasing the ratio, we can decrease the amount of destroyed targets. By feeding troll freighters, we can decrease total losses. By killing/jamming Goons, we waste X. Either way the amount of real damage decrease. There is a point where Goon leaders say: that amount of damage just doesn't worth the costs.

Arrendis said...

The freighter has insurance, so the actual loss is around 3-400M.

Here's what you're not getting:

We don't care if it costs the pilot anything at all. It's not about the price tag, Gevlon, it's about making things go kersplody, as it were.

Spaceship pixels need to be blown up. Death to all space pixels, eh wot?

As for 'why only once a year?'... why Christmas only once a year? Why Easter? Why Halloween?

Special occasions that happen all the time... those aren't special. They're just... Tuesday.

daniel said...

if i may remind of last years bj...
gevlon was moving his orca around, trolling local, but didn't get shot.
iirc it was lucas telling him that he wasn't attacked because there were "better" targets around.
i for one understood him the way, that bj indeed is about profitability.
though i might have misunderstood.


it will also be interesting (though i am afraid that "sad" will be the term of choice) to see which side/role rvb will take.
is the newbiefriendly forfun highsec.pvp alliance really going to defend the event?
if so, how will they justify that? after all, they are an independent entity, not the highsec.pvp.arm of one of eve's major powerblocks?!

Babar said...

My point was that buying, transporting and fitting 10000 ships is a lot of clicks and is a boring, thankless job, and not that it costs a lot.

Let's, for the sake of argument, assume that the point of Burn Jita is to have a fun, social event for the CFC grunts. To reward them for the bombless bomber grinds, to motivate the troops. If we assume this, how does a 50% or a 80% ISK efficiency matter?

Anonymous said...

"If Burn Jita costs would be so irrelevant, why there is only one Burn Jita a year? I mean it's so much fun, why not have one every month?

Simple: because Goons can't afford it."

Because it is not special anymore?
And because you would not get same results.
If you would have Xmas-every month, you would have same effect.

You believe that CFC is poor and is struggling paying all the things?
thats quite naiv.

Lucas Kell said...

@daniel
"if i may remind of last years bj...
gevlon was moving his orca around, trolling local, but didn't get shot.
iirc it was lucas telling him that he wasn't attacked because there were "better" targets around."
That was the ice interdiction, which was specifically about targeting ice miners which Gevlon was not.
Then again, even if he did the same during Burn Jita, he'd just get ignored, because obvious bait is obvious. He specifically wants people to attack him, so why would people go out of their way to do so, and to play into his hands?

As for RvB, they will probably participate in Burn Jita. I doubt they will defend against it, since that's not what they are about, they aren't defenders of high sec. Now you can suggest that makes them slaves to the goons, but it doesn't make it the case. A lot of people like to join in on Burn Jita. I'm surprised that Marmite don't want to do the same to be honest, since they have a ganking wing set up anyway, and as much as Gevlon likes to kid himself, they are all about tear generation.

Anyway, Burn Jita should be pretty fun regardless. I hope a lot of white knights do turn up to try to stop it as they will be fun to scrap with. There's usually quite a few groups running anti-goon groups, so there's nothing new there. This is the first time I've seen "throw freighters at them" being suggested though. Seems weird considering the source, since each freighter will cost the owner a few hundred million, and on top of that, think about the opportunity costs!

Anonymous said...

" A lot of people like to join in on Burn Jita. I'm surprised that Marmite don't want to do the same to be honest, since they have a ganking wing set up anyway, and as much as Gevlon likes to kid himself, they are all about tear generation."

Marmite cant join, because they have to many wardecs, specially against CFC. How could they undock with ganking ships? They would have to cancel their wardecc first.
And Marmite is looking for efficiency. There you can argument with gevlon points, what he used wrongly on CFC but he can use it for marmite. They would not tollerate a 65% efficiency.

Lucas Kell said...

@Anon
"Marmite cant join, because they have to many wardecs, specially against CFC. How could they undock with ganking ships? They would have to cancel their wardecc first.
And Marmite is looking for efficiency. There you can argument with gevlon points, what he used wrongly on CFC but he can use it for marmite. They would not tollerate a 65% efficiency."
Marmites gankers aren't a part of Marmite, so aren't affected by their wardecs. As you say, they look for efficiency, so ganking guarantees losses. Due to that, their ganking characters are a separate and don't focus on keeping up efficiency. Marmite won't be doing much on their mains during Burn Jita anyway, since there's no way they are going to undock and engage a goon anti-war fleet, so it's not even like they'd be too busy to join in.

All that said, maybe they are joining in. I think they have a corp set up containing the bulk of their gankers, I'll have to dig out their names later and see if they join in.

Anonymous said...

To your PS:

The problem with that is, this survey:
http://www.rff.dk/files/RFF-site/Publikations%20upload/Arbejdspapirer/Study%20Paper%2057%20-%20Do%20Danish%20children%20and%20young%20people%20receive%20pocket%20money.pdf

Says: There is no relationship between income and pocket money, and the clearest link is the fathers education and pocket money level.

This one: http://www.insee.fr/en/themes/document.asp?reg_id=0&id=668
says: Children receive more pocket money when their parents have high incomes and belong to upper social classes.

This one: http://www.jrf.org.uk/media-centre/successive-generations-children-may-be-145learning-be-poor146

"Children in lone-parent and Income Support families were less likely to receive regular pocket money than others. Although children in low income families were less likely to have part-time jobs, those who did worked for longer hours and lower rates of pay than other children."

"Asked which presents they would like if it was their birthday next week, the children in lone-parent and Income Support families listed items that were significantly less expensive on average than those identified by other children."



Anonymous said...

Do you reimburse troll freighters?

Provi Miner said...

No Lucas you said nothing about an ice interdiction when refering to why goons didn't shoot goblin. In fact you told me they didn't shoot him because A: he wanted to be shot B: he was flying light (which he wasn't). You don't get to change you story to make it fit your narrative. You made your choice now stick with it.

Gevlon said...

@Anonymous: I can't reimburse troll freighters since there is no way to prove that they were suicide ganked. Goons can just kill their neutral alt suspect freighters boosting their kills and their morale (line Goon doesn't know that the "dumb carebear" is the alt of his FC) and send me the bill

Lucas Kell said...

@Provi Miner
"No Lucas you said nothing about an ice interdiction when refering to why goons didn't shoot goblin. In fact you told me they didn't shoot him because A: he wanted to be shot B: he was flying light (which he wasn't). You don't get to change you story to make it fit your narrative. You made your choice now stick with it."
Please can you show me where that was stated? I'm fairly sure I didn't even comment on last years Burn Jita, and the only time I know of Gevlon baiting was during the Caldari ice interdiction, in the post about "the fall of miniluv" where he talk about the Orca he showed up in that didn't get ganked.

Gevlon said...

@Lucas: http://greedygoblin.blogspot.hu/2013/04/burn-morons.html

Anonymous said...

A large number of corps will war Dec goons so they can attack without waiting.

If RvB allies with goons... They can shoot all goon wartargets and shoot goons when the goons go GCC.

If RvB just goes without allying with goons, they cam only shoot goons when they go GCC.

Which option gives RvB pilots more targets?

Lucas Kell said...

Sorry, I may have been unclear. I was looking for where Provi Miner says that I commented on your burn Jita escapades. I'm sure you did bait back then, but I don't remember commenting on it. As far as I am aware I've only referred to your interdiction orca baiting.

Sarah Flynt said...

The killboard data of last year's Burn Jita is highly incomplete. I alone killed between 30 and 40 pods for which I didn't even receive killmails in game, so they don't show up on any killboard either. I smartbombed the large majority of them and picked up the corpses, so I know I really killed them. I talked to others who were also turkey shooting Goons and they reported the same.

Anonymous said...

how do kill rights work?
how long do they last?

is there a possible business model getting as many as possible with insured freighters and selling the kill rights for 10m each?

I'm guessing the gank toons are not in space to be targets after the event is finished are they?

*vlad* said...

Poor Goons, only have a fun event once a year, otherwise it's boring. What a load of bullshit.

I don't play this game, but I really love the Goblin's crusade against these arrogant self-important Goons. Go Goblin!

Basil said...

Is there something cheaper that would make a good goon fake target? these freighters sound expensive, even with insurance.

Gevlon said...

@Basil: Orca.
You can also try T1 indy with double-wrapped package. Covops haulers have bad insurance but you can trick some tornadoes to shoot blindly.

@Anonymous: you get kill rights if you are ganked. You can offer them for sale and people who find your target in space might buy it. 10M is a fair price, you can sell some. But of course it needs your ganker to come highsec again as no one needs kill rights in nullsec or even lowsec.

Lucas Kell said...

"But of course it needs your ganker to come highsec again as no one needs kill rights in nullsec or even lowsec."
Which 99% of us never do.

Kill rights last 30 days by the way, after that they are gone.

@Basil
"Is there something cheaper that would make a good goon fake target?"
There's no such thing as a fake target during Burn Jita. If our aim was to fap over our killboard efficiency, there might be, but it's not.

Anonymous said...

"Poor Goons, only have a fun event once a year, otherwise it's boring. What a load of bullshit.

I don't play this game, but I really love the Goblin's crusade against these arrogant self-important Goons. Go Goblin!"

Thats why you have no clue. Im also no goon, but those events add something to our game. It is really fun. I rarely see other entities creating similar events with those impacts/or scale.

Without events, eve would be more boring.

After the weekend, gevlon will be happy because he won in his mind, because the statistics are hillarious for the goons.
the goons think, they won because the did a massacre and had fun.
Some 3rd party think they won, because they grabbed loot and whored on kills.

etc.. so be happy about it

Alessandro said...

As the last anonymous post says:

Your post is a propaganda for the "Burn Jita" event, and will increase the activities on the event.

That will make everyone happy, "creating" more content for everyone.

Goons will have "fun", even if they get massacred and have 1% isk efficiency.

You will have fun in the way you endorse (rational fun, fact/truth based).

And the others will have fun due to the great number of participants.

tl,dr: You're inviting more people to the "party", more chances to making it a "blast".

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