Greedy Goblin

Tuesday, March 18, 2014

Lemmings grown up

Lemmings used to be my alliance, existing because I financed it, doing what I told them to do.

Not anymore. I had a pretty clear discussion with General Lemming, the alliance CEO, the Marmite director alt running Lemmings and he made the following statements:
  • Lemmings will continue operate even if I stop financing them, they are committed to running it.
  • Lemmings will be more mercenary-like, targeting more corps and alliances, though upkeeping the anti-CFC sentiment and avoid deccing N3PL related organizations and jumping on any CFC-started war as allies. The target is 80% wars on CFC.
  • I am just one client, I pay for whatever targets I want attacked, if I don't like the results, I stop paying.
  • Since I'm a client, I need to stop backseat alliance leading.
  • Blogposts and propaganda are welcomed.
Now, if I was The Mittani, I would be very upset and swore vendetta against my "ex-pets" who defied my rule. Instead, I felt a big stone lifted from my shoulder. Lemmings are no longer my responsibility. If they fail, it's not my fail, I simply stop paying them. If they succeed, they will do so as my hired mercenaries, they will succeed in killing my targets: Goons and their slaves. Of course they will kill other targets of other clients (Marmite had only 14.5% of their damage on my targets in February).

I not only sucked in backseat alliance leading, but hated it, exactly because I felt forced to do something I'm bad at, instead of doing what I'm good at: making ISK. Often writing a letter had higher opportunity cost than the thing in the letter. From now on I can do what I really good at: making ISK and I can make objective business decisions how to use it. I will give the ISK to the mercenary group that gives me the most hit on Goons and slaves, be it ISK destroyed, a taken POCO or a nice screenshot about yet another RvB/Goon fleet forming up and being bored next to a POCO.

I'm proud of starting the Lemmings and see them grow up. I supported them when no one believed it they had a chance. When RvB jumped on the only 50-men newborn. I'm sure they'll become a fierce mercenary group, one that I can hire for its results. In February, Marmite did 175B damage and Lemmings did 47, despite they cost me equally. If I made the cold business decision, I'd pull the plug on Lemmings and give the money to Marmites to permadec more CFC elements. Same on POCOs: Noir destroyed more in a week than Lemmings in months. Of course I didn't stop supporting, as I knew they are yet young. I still won't, Lemmings will surely get some favoritism with my money. But I will give less money to Lemmings now and spend more with the cold optimization. You'll see more Goon slaves targeted and more damage done to CFC, both on the POCO front and on the ISK destroyed front.

Above all: now the GRR project is completely free of all kind of "soft" skills. You can no longer say "hey it's the 500 volunteers killing Goons". They are mercs now, you can hire them against your own targets too. The GRR project is now just me, the donators from my blog giving me money and our money against Goons, hiring various mercs (page updated). Let's see how far "carebear pubbies" get against the "community-born" Goons.

Finally a personal comment: I wish TEST leadership had the same courage and straight business-like approach. I wish they had told me to stop randomly posting and blanket donating, instead do targeted donations to projects I like, like battleship reimbursement and dread subsidies. This way my money would have been used much better and I wouldn't troll the crap out of TEST in desperate seeking of way to fix things. Of course I could have figured it out myself, but I couldn't. Luckily General Lemming did.

About further donations: if you want to support what Lemmings do, send your money to General Lemming. If you send it to me, I spend it as I see fit on the various mercenary options. Speaking of which, I got some again, thank you:

I couldn't imagine more fitting proof that Lemmings indeed grown up than this and this. Thank you guys and keep it up! As long as you keep killing them, I keep paying for them!

Hey look, another Goon POCO fell!

44 comments:

Anonymous said...

Liked Lemmings better before. People against Goons was something you can get behind. Yet another Merc corp is not. Granted it is nice they have an anti Goon lean to them, but it is not the same. Sad to see this development and them degenerating into a merc corp, instead of an pure anti Goon mission.

Gevlon said...

If you want pure Anti-Goon Mission, join Nulli Secunda.

*My* mission, the GRR project, is still pure anti-Goon, hiring mercs against Goons. As long as I have money, mercs will hit Goon structures and slaughter Goons.

Anonymous said...

This is where the fun begins, no? Instead of controlling a thing and choosing all the tings related to it. Now you get the pleasure of picking a target and watching what happens. I think you will be far more pleased doing that then trying to run something. As for the merc comments ignore them. If they want an anti goon op let them pay for it. I for hope you keep updating us on the progress. However there is still one huge stumbling block. What will happen to the goons? Few if any corps alliances will accept them into their society. So either goons have to leave the game entirely or there needs to be a way to mainstream them. What is your plan for them should you succeed.

Anonymous said...

So, Lemmings are now just another Marmite?

nightgerbil said...

So another high sec pvp corp is born? instead of "grr goons lets harrass them and try to take pocos" the high sec indy and miner corps can look forward to be war decced by them along with marmite, pursuit of happiness etc.

If I was a high sec miner/indy I would be pretty upset with you right now Gevlon. You just hurt them worse then the goons ever did with burn Jita. I certainly wouldnt be donating to you. Lucky for me personally I dont have any friends. I still dont think you have done a good thing here though.

Im also worrying about CODE's expansion into hitting haulers regardless of profitabilty, as that has the potential to actually hurt me hard. I'm not in a postion to replace more then a few haulers+collateral and still buy merlins for my fun time.

Gevlon said...

@Nightgerbil: I've told for YEARS now that if you are in a PvE corp, you are doing it wrong. PvE corps give nothing but decs and awoxes. You should be in an NPC corp if you are mining/hauling or a personal alt corp if missioning/doing incursions. If decced, just disband corp and make another.

CODE is local and lacks power projection ability. Look at their freighter kills: https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99002775/group/513/

All in Isanamo. If you check on their killboard every other day, you can see where they are and you are free of them everywhere else.

@Anonymous: pretty much, yes. However "being Marmite" isn't bad. Marmite killed 175B CFC in March.

Satori Okanata said...

The thing is gevlon, that many, like me, joined the project because of grrr goons. No grrr goons, well, no more reason to stay with lemmings and I'd rather go back trading/mining/missions, whatever. Man, you really need to commit into your projects, every time you abandon one, and like it's happening with lemmings when it's starting to really take off you loose backers and followers. You need to commit to a project fully, whatever way it ends and you really need to lead your projects. What I read from this is that lemmings got big and strong and marmite simply took it from your hands to use it for it's own convenience.

Powers said...

non-waffe pocos will continue to fall until the membercorps tell people they people they are reinforced. Only the goonwaffe pocos kick up to the alliance.

Arrendis said...

If I was a high sec miner/indy I would be pretty upset with you right now Gevlon. You just hurt them worse then the goons ever did with burn Jita. I certainly wouldnt be donating to you. Lucky for me personally I dont have any friends. I still dont think you have done a good thing here though.

Except he didn't.

Really, I'd say this is an almost Mittens-worthy effort at spin, but I'm more inclined to see it as rationalizing and not wanting to admit that he just had his project stolen from him. Worst part is, this was telegraphed openly, not two days ago.

Go back down to the Lemmings SotA, and re-read it. Right from the first sentence:

Since you can’t be taken seriously without a public State of The Alliance it seems, I thought it was time to write one for Lemmings.

It's right there. Sarcasm and snark about Gevlon's earlier post, asking why we don't get SotAs on EN24 and TMDC from everyone in creation.

Then again near the bottom:

I want to make something very clear to Lemmings and our enemies. There is only one alliance CEO (General Lemming) and one Co-CEO (Doc Know) which are running this alliance.

Sure, he throws Gevlon a bone with the next sentence, talking about how helpful he's been, but he clearly wants to make sure the pilots know he, not Gevlon, is in charge.

This has likely been the game-plan all along, once the alliance was big enough. Let it be open recruitment, teach new people. Keep a cadre of experienced pilots in there - long-term pilots who maybe don't have the greatest killboard ratio. That lets you keep Lemmings staffed with leadership, and keeps Marmite's killboards looking a little better.

Then you make it a feeder alliance for Marmite. Lemmings can focus primarily on the Goon POCOs, keeping the new blood churning, while Marmite goes back to their gate/station camping, and looking for miner groups to wardec.

This wasn't Gevlon's fault. He probably doesn't even realize he was played. Remember how much he insists Marmite wasn't scamming him? That because his money bought him expensive solo ganks, it means he's winning?

Gen. Lemming has likely been planning on letting Gevlon bankroll his shiny new feeder alliance and paying for Marmite's expansion of operations (from Jita undock to the Amarr undocks! Twice the trade-hub cowardice!) more or less since Darwin's Lemmings started to see some genuine activity. And if Gevlon can keep rich third-parties donating, he's still a useful PR tool.

But yeah. Remember how I was saying Gevlon was more of enemy to highsec carebears than CONDI? This is why.

Gevlon said...

@Satori Okanata: I'm still committed. I will still pay the anti-CFC wardecs of Lemmings. If you are in Lemmings, you can still shoot the same targets. Hell, if you haven't read this post, you'd never know anything happened. Check the in-game page: are the anti-CFC wars canceled?

@Powers: the golden "you only kill dumb Goons" defense. If your "membercorps" (inner slaves) can't use in-alliance channels, that's your problem and not mine. Your propaganda site laughed off BRAVE and TEST who failed to use the same comms, and now pull it as excuse?

Anonymous said...

I think this starts to lead the Lemmings into a different direction.
Lemmings were very much a movement against Goons. People joined because of a clear objective and because they wanted to be part of that movement.
Now the objective is not clear at all anymore. Sure, Lemmings will still shoot Goons, but also a bunch of other random peole who have nothing to do with the former "greater goal".
And if I just want to shoot random people without any clear objective, I rather join RvB. In RvB at least the other shoot back.
This hole merc thing is also financially a completely different case. I wouldn't fleet up to fight a random corp because my director got paid a bunch of isk for it.

Arrendis said...

@Anonymous: pretty much, yes. However "being Marmite" isn't bad. Marmite killed 175B CFC in March.

Which means if you pass that expense out to the entire CFC, you've cost each pilot just under 5 million isk.

Hang on a sec, lemme rat for 5 minutes to make that up. Ok, done.

175B over 37,000 people is peanuts, Gevlon. What's more, solo ganks aren't actually any kind of effective campaign. What, you're costing people money? Big deal. Money's easy to come by.

And as Powers points out, hitting the outlier corps' POCOs? It comes under the same heading as the Jita 4-4 kills:

If you can kill it, it deserved to die.

If you're killing CFC pilots in Jita, they were idiots who didn't fly in a properly kitted out transit T3, or use an NPC-corp neutral alt for high-sec trading.

If you're taking non-Waffe POCOs, then they're owned by idiots who aren't telling CONDI about the POCOs or that they've been attacked.

Either way, they deserved the losses they took.

Personally, I'd rather live, hunt, and make my living in null than be a highsec scavenger like Marmite. That whole 'adult beating up a kid and taking his lunch money' analogy still holds.

Gevlon said...

@Anonymous: unless there are CTAs that force you to fleet up against non-CFC targets, you can just ignore everything else and keep shooting CFC only.

@Arrendis: talking like a true Goon follower. You only see people in terms of "slaves" and "enemies". If you had spies in Lemmings, you'd know how many alliance mails I wrote: zero. You could easily be a Lemming without knowing who the hell I am.

I never "owned" Lemmings, I never controlled anyone, I enabled and keep enabling their activity against Goons. They used to kill CFC and they keep killing CFC.

I write the same as I wrote to Satori: if no one told a word about this change, you'd never notice. No actions will change.

I am not a Goon, I don't consider an enemy everyone who doesn't obey me without question. Why did I hire Noir? Do you think they were ever lead by my?

Sure, that 175B isn't much if you distribute among members. But hey, I'm just one man, do you really call it a failure if I couldn't solo-kill the whole CFC? I started something that works: highsec businessmen against CFC by hiring mercs. Alone, it's just a dent. Now imagine that hundreds of upset "carebear pubbies" are hiring mercs. Not just in highsec.

Yes, they could avoid their losses if they had brain. But if they had brain, they wouldn't fly bombless bombers for the RMT of The Mittani. If we kill every dumb individual in CFC, there will be just the directorate left.

Anonymous said...

well, I thing general lemming and gevlon both think they have a win-win situation.

General Lemming can built his Marmite Training Corp and getting sponsored by Gevlon. He still ignores that he lost control and got scammed in a hard way by it. Its still that good, that he still thinks he is not.

Gevlon on the other hand has his win situation described with this sentence: "If they fail, it's not my fail, I simply stop paying them. If they succeed, they will do so as my hired mercenaries, they will succeed in killing my targets: Goons and slaves. "
He can pick the results how he want it. If Lemmings fail, he can say, ok is not my problem, I did not want that corp anyway...
He doesn´t commit any longer to it.
If they make some kills, he can still make his odd propaganda.
=> He can´t loose in this way of thinking.

What will happen is that Lemmings will start wars against normal Marmite targets and get them ready for their main corp. The Poco thing will slowly run out. Gevlon will need to pay other Merc to do it, or needs to force lemmings to do it, for special ISK.

All in all, its again some kind of project fail.
Also look at the RvB killboard. Hell they have 51% efficiency vs your group. I dont think they are loosing ;-)


Anonymous said...

@Arrendis
1. - CREATING AND REALISING AN ENTITY
You assume Gevlon has been played and his project stolen. What you don't seem to comprehend is Gevlon has been financing and arming a new entity and he's now releasing it into the wilderness. How could this be intended from the beginning? Just a hint: arming a group and then releasing it happens in reallife geopolitics too.

2. BEING A BUSINESSMAN NOT A CONSUMER
Money wasn't wasted by Gevlon when he paid for the Marmite expansion, he needed that for his plans. When you aren't in the business industry you often assume that money is *always* exchanged against assets or services. But sometime you have to pay "goodwill" out of your pocket to see things happen because they help your agenda.

Some people simply can't understand this and blindly believe it's charity or being scammed. But when Gevlon let go Lemmings, this was not a "net loss" at all for him, this is moving forward along his own agenda. He spent money in exchange for the fact that Lemmings EXIST, he doesn't need to manage and own the corp, and shouldn't. (No he shouldn't own shares of the corp either, shares mean power and he doesn't want to politically hinder the corp management.)

Anonymous said...

Keep GSF perma-bountied. Reasonable ISK efficieny (Factor 5), and VERY little effort besides. Lots of time (opportunity cost, you mentioned it) to earn that ISK. Mercenaries and anti-goon alliances will find it worth their time going after GSF in low and nul, and maybe even declaring war on them for highsec bounty hunting. If you want to keep open the possibility for anyone to shoot Goons in highsec, continue to pay for that wardec and make it clear that alliance members must always be free to go fight Goons and not be forced to fleet up against other targets.

Gevlon said...

Lemmings were always a mean and not a Goal. Marmite always did more damage than Lemmings and Noir took more POCOs than Lemmings.

The Goal was always dead Goonies and destroyed Goon POCOs. If I get more, I win, if I get less, I lose.

The ISK ratio (unless it's 90%+) isn't relevant. What is relevant is who becomes unable to replace losses.

@Anonymous: the problem with bounties is that they doesn't guarantee kill increase. I mean N3 would kill Goons without bounty. The money is best spent in a way to allow people who wouldn't shoot Goons to do so.

Also, there are multiple CFC entities, not just GSF.

AnonymousMR said...

I have to say that I am very sad panda right now. I supported Lemmings because they created some unique narrative - crusade against goons and their pets, performed by highsec (or highsec alts). Main enemy were Goons Goons, and it was advertising point during early days.
Not, judging from this post and alliance SOTA lemmings just change into one more mercenary corp.
If I wanted to be part of pure mercenary corp, I would simply join Marmite instead.
Here is the question: why should new (as in, not in corp) players join Lemmings instead of any other mercenary group?

Gevlon, you underestimate yourself.You ARE popular enough to attract people to your projects. In fact, I wasn't afraid that Marmite would try to change Lemmings into their pets, BECAUSE you were involved and you would clearly see that this move would hurt anti-goon movement. Recent events proved that I was wrong.

Now I can see in SOTA that the one and only CEO is Marmite's alt, whose power is no longer limited by you or non-marmite's people in command. I see that 'grr goons' attitude is fading, I see that corp is clearly on way into being Marmite's pet. Why I should be happy about this?


Why should I support them any more? Because from time to time, if payed, they will blow some ships of goons? And if not, they will assault some random highsec's corp because they are bored? It is not how it used to be at the beginning.






Gevlon said...

@AnonymousMR: the MAIN enemy is still Goons. You have to accept that most players in it were bored with just that many targets, see that in February they killed more suspects than CFC. So Lemmings is and in the foreseeable future will be an anti-Goon movement.

Why should a new player join? Because NO OTHER merc corp takes a new player.

Why should you be happy about "Marmite pet"? Because the "Big Marmite" destroyed 175B CFC in February! Big Marmite (as long as me and others pay them) are killing CFC big time.

Anonymous said...

Here's an interesting number for you to work out Gevlon.

What as a % of total goon losses last month does the marmite kills equate to?

I would imagine only a fraction of a percent.. In which case they wouldn't be killing goons big time - of course i'm happy to be proven wrong. But do that - using public killboard information, plot the TOTAL goon losses for last month against the total marmite goon kills for the same period.

Don't try to normalize the data or figure out a gank value or whatever. Just goon losses over marmite goon kills for February.

Anonymous said...

Something Gevlon forgot to blog is that I told him that 80% of all Lemmings wars will stay anti-CFC. And all donations made, will be used to pay for CFC wars. Like last night we got 1B donation and 3 new CFC wars were setup. And those were setup before this blog was ever made.

If I wanted a Marmites version 2.0, I would just grow Marmites to a few thousand players extra. That's not what is going to happen to Lemmings. The 20% of the other wars will be to defend main corps from players who have an alt corp in Lemmings and alliances who have supported CFC alliances which Gevlon didn't want us to go after. From today on, they will be hunted too.

Lemmings will stay Lemmings and Marmites will stay Marmites.

AnonymousMR said...

I probably worded myself badly, when I asked:
"Here is the question: why should new (as in, not in corp) players join Lemmings instead of any other mercenary group?"

I didn't mean new player as in newbie, who just started playing EVE. I meant new as in potentially new lemming. It could be old player/alt account of some nullsec character etc.

Telling
"Why should you be happy about "Marmite pet"? Because the "Big Marmite" destroyed 175B CFC in February! Big Marmite (as long as me and others pay them) are killing CFC big time." is not so different than telling:
"Why should you be happy about being "Goon pet"? Because the Goons has acquired huge part of Nullsec!"

Still, it won't change fact that Lemmings won't have independent leadership/power, etc at all. Not even illusion of it. It can be simply renamed into Marmite Second Corp.


From your perspective there is no problem. You will pay, you will get Goon destroyed. But I am sure that Lemmings could be a unique initiative, which would change highsec big time. And now they won't, even if they double or triple damage done weekly to GFC.

And that is why I am disappointed.



There is difference between wanting to shoot Goons and needing money in order to be able to do it (war bills, etc), and fighting Goons only because you are getting paid to do so. Lemmings could be a great tool to gather first kind of mentioned people and use them as a spear against Goon's black hearts. And now they will start attracting more people of the other kind, and I am worried that in future Lemmings would gladly shoot even enemies of goons, if Mittani paid them (I am exaggerating, but I hope you see what I want to tell). We have more than enough highsec mercenary corps in-game, we don't another one.

Gevlon said...

@AnonymousMR: the question is mandatory CTA. If there is none (I mean no one is kicked for missing CTAs), then an individual pilot doesn't notice any change. He used to shoot Goons, he keep doing it. There are new war targets who are not CFC (General Lemming wants to go after Russian blues of Goons, I don't pay for that), but no one forces you to shoot these targets or get into the fleet going after them!

AnonymousMR said...

Anonymous: you are General Lemming, aren't you?

I am glad to read that:
Something Gevlon forgot to blog is that I told him that 80% of all Lemmings wars will stay anti-CFC. And all donations made, will be used to pay for CFC wars. (...)

If I wanted a Marmites version 2.0, I would just grow Marmites to a few thousand players extra. That's not what is going to happen to Lemmings. T


I really hope that it will work this way in the future

Peter said...

Now that you're the proud owner of some of those POCOs, you should be in a position to tell us exactly how much income they generate.

If you're hoping to persuade more people to try and take POCOs from the goons then they really need to know that information in order to determine whether it's worth their time/effort.

Arrendis said...

@Arrendis: talking like a true Goon follower. You only see people in terms of "slaves" and "enemies". If you had spies in Lemmings, you'd know how many alliance mails I wrote: zero. You could easily be a Lemming without knowing who the hell I am.

Really? Where did I use either term in what I said? You're the one obsessed with 'slaves' and 'enemies', Gevlon.

Besides, I never claimed I have spies in Lemmings. Espionage isn't my specialty - but I sincerely doubt, given how openly people mock you in local when Lemmings are about, that you can be in Lemmings without knowing who the sugar daddy is.

Sure, that 175B isn't much if you distribute among members. But hey, I'm just one man, do you really call it a failure if I couldn't solo-kill the whole CFC?

Nope. But apparently you would. Let's recap!

Goons keep telling people that power lies in groups and having friends. That's the most destructive lie you can tell to a player. The truth is that power lies in knowledge and in himself. He alone can defy a coalition. I did.

Remember saying that?

As I said in the comment you left unapproved - you didn't. You went and got a group. You made a new group.

And now you've gone from 'One man can defy the a coalition. I did.' to 'but hey, I'm just one man' less than 24 hrs later.

Like. A. Tornado.

Oh, and hey, Anonymous?
Just a hint: arming a group and then releasing it happens in reallife geopolitics too.

Yup. And it worked out so well for the US w/the Mujahedeen and Bin Laden, didn't it? The CIA totally never expected to keep some semblance of control or influence there, right?

There are two types of people who build an armed group with the intention of letting it go free: corpses, and fools. Gevlon may not have the tightest grasp on interpersonal dynamics, but I'm not ready to write him off as either of those, yet.

Back to Gevlon...
The ISK ratio (unless it's 90%+) isn't relevant. What is relevant is who becomes unable to replace losses.

Very true (See? Not a fool there). And so far you've cost Waffe, if all those ships were under SRP, about 2 fleets.

Except they weren't, and you haven't cost Waffe anything appreciable. Highsec loaner scythes? POCO income? You spent more on attacking those POCOs in a month than the POCOs themselves make.

If we kill every dumb individual in CFC, there will be just the directorate left.

Then why waste your time defending yourself to 'dumb' people like me? I assure you, I'm not in the directorate, and your little band of nascent terrorists hasn't caught me. Heck, I do business in highsec every day.

General (since we're assuming that's you):
I hope so. I really do. But only time will tell.

Lucas Kell said...

Peter
That info was already released. All of RvBs POCOs (350 of them or so) make between 10 and 15 b/month. So each POCO is worth about 30-40m/month.

Outside of the area around Jita, that drops off fast down to around 10-15m/month with the lowest I've seen and been able to verify being just under 1m/month.

Anonymous said...

There is no difference between Lemmings last week and Lemmings next week. Lemmings is not and will not ever be a merc alliance. This doesn't mean there wont be other wars then 100% CFC. That's why I said 80%/20%. RvB is sometimes at wars with others too, but it doesnt make them a merc alliance, does it ? You just defend your interests. In our case, players who are in Lemmings and have another corp/aliance. We are Lemmings and we will defend / help each other. Gevlon and I just have a difference of opinion when it comes to alliances who help the CFC. Gevlon says, do not dec. I say, kill them all if needed. I understand players having issues with a Marmite director running Lemmings and who are wondering how can you separate them ? I can do that, as I have been doing it since the start. You just need a very logical mind and less emotion.

When it comes to pocos or other resources. Marmites were never hired to shoot poco's and Lemmings was setup to do so. It still is, but you need to build up an alliance first to have the structures and numbers to do so. CFC alliances arent pussies who you easily kill. At leats not when they setup proper fleets. Noir has been here for ever and instead of going after the poco locations provided by Gevlon, they went after poco's at some far away random place. And just because they killed one or two of those randoms, they are some kind of hero's, without having spy issues. Bull shit, let them take poco's in the Jita area. Then they can compare themselves with Lemmings who destroyed 3 pocos in that area.

Lemmings will grow and grow and grow till we have enough players to hurt CFC in 0.0 and low sec. Not just in high sec.

Grrr...

General Lemming

Gevlon said...

@Lucas: The POCOs aren't for income. They are statues of Goon power.

@Arrendis: There are grades between "total zero" and "defeated a coalition all alone". According to the killboard the average YEARLY loss of a Goonwaffe member is 477M. 1212M for an inner slave. Since Goonwaffe is about 1/3, let's average it with 960M/YEAR. That's 80M/month. Compared to that, my 5M/month isn't bad at all.

The Lemmings didn't turn into a loose cannon, they still need ISK to operate, which means clients. I'm still one. So the CFC focus will stay.

OK. You are the rare exception who isn't dumb and in CFC. But you are flying logi. That's "elite PvP" in Goon terms as you press more than one button.

Anonymous said...

As some previous poster has pointed out:

there is a big difference between an organization that is ideologically driven to kill Goonswarm and needs some isk to achieve that goal and an organization that kills Goonswarm only because they receive isk to do it.

Yes, at the end of the day the "money in, kills out" equation for both groups might look exactly the same but the players they will attract are very different.

Again Gevlon is missing the more social aspects of the situation. People don't just want to kill goons (everybody can go to Deklein and farm goon ratters to his heart's content without joining any corporation or alliance), they want to be part of an epic narrative, they want to be part of the (ideologically driven) high-sec crusade that punishes Goonswarm for their hybris, the David that stands up against Goliath, ...
A mercenary knows no allegiances and has no ideology, he is just a tool to be used by others. There is no honor or epicness in fighting Goliath when you have been hired to do so, the entire magic of the story vanishes the moment this veil is pulled back.

Lucas Kell said...

@Gevlon
"The POCOs aren't for income. They are statues of Goon power."
To you they are. To the CFC they are space junk. they were taken when everyone thought they were worth a heap of isk, which turned out to be wishful thinking. And that's not a "didn't want those POCOs anyway", we still want to keep them, just because we can, but they aren't meaningful income. I know form neither side are they about the income, but Peter asked, so I responded.

Gevlon said...

@Anonymous: I'd like to repeat, in February the Lemmings killed 47B CFC and 60B randoms. Most Lemmings can't care less about who they shoot, as long as it dies.

Ideology is rare thing. But if you have one, you can give money to Lemmings or a known merc group to kill Goons, if you are PvP-er, you can join Lemmings and kill Goons and no other targets.

Lucas Kell said...

"Compared to that, my 5M/month isn't bad at all."
Even if we assume all of that to be true, what is the impact? It's not like you can scale that linearly, and it's not even like that is additional cost. People that get killed in highsec will get killed, whether it's you doing it or not. Had your group not killed them, someone else would have. Because you did, the other group now can't. Then again the question is raised, how does a high sec kill affect goons as a whole?

It feels like the questions that have never been answered are:
What is the impact of the attacks?
How can you accurately measure the impact?

I know the Result you want, that's the end of the goons. I know your current effect, which is highsec kills. But what I don't understand is what connects them. It feels like one of those "Get Kills ... ??? ... Profit!" situations.

Anonymous said...

Imagine Klitchko speaking on the Maidan:

"Hey guys, we have done great work so far but there isn't much we can do about Russia in the Crimea atm and I understand some of you have been getting a bit bored lately.

So to spice things up a bit I have decided to rent out small groups of you as muscle to the highest bidder and we also might expand into running a bit of a protection racket on the side.

Don't get me wrong, 80% of our energy will still be focused on fighting against government corruption and pro-Russian sentiments and you can stay camped on the Maidan for as long as you want, nobody will force you to join our rented out hitsquads, but Yulia and me really feel this course of action is for the best of all of us."

Don't you think the protesters would feel duped? would feel that they have been sold out, that they are just regarded as tools, that they haven't been taken seriously in their ideologic sentiments and individual commitment to the cause?

The anti-goon sentiments go way beyond "I want to win at this game and to do so I have to beat you" they reach deeply into issues of real-life identity and ideology. You have to take those who fight on your side seriously in their ideological commitment, to call them "mercenaries" (i.e. hireable tools) is to insult them.
These aren't random pvpers, these are people with a very real grudge who are fighting for a cause. You happen to be the condensation point around which they have formed but they fight because of their cause not because of you.

Arrendis said...

Gevlon:
OK. You are the rare exception who isn't dumb and in CFC. But you are flying logi. That's "elite PvP" in Goon terms as you press more than one button.

No, it's not. 'Elite PvP' in Goon terms is 'that bullshit people in N3 like to spout off about while they call everyone else 'subhumans'.'

Does flying logi take more attention and effort than flying a line battleship? Sure. So does flying a recon cruiser, interceptor, EWAR frigate or cruiser, interdictor... our fleets use all of them. The same people who fly battleships fly all of them, depending on their mood.

That's what you don't seem to get, man. You harp on the Goons for acting better than everyone else, when you don't seem to get that they're mocking that sort of behavior. 'Elite PVP' is a joke, and so are the people who seem to think that blowing up pixels from the safety of the largest, most powerful ships in the game makes them 'elite'.

As for your breakdown of CONDI losses - how much of that took place in the scope of actual fleets? Remember, CONDI has 100% SRP for all stratops, and Waffe itself currently pays 200% reimbursement for all PVP (not 'I got ganked in Jita!') losses, according to public statements.

So... let's say your numbers hold up for another year. 477M per Waffe member across 2014. If even 50% of that 477M is legit PvP losses, the average Waffe member is losing... nothing.

To quote an internet meme old enough and unused enough that I might even get away with it on SA... Good Jorb, Hamscray.

General:
Lemmings will grow and grow and grow till we have enough players to hurt CFC in 0.0 and low sec.

I hope so. Come out to Deklein and play.

Gevlon said...

@Anonymous: I share your worries, but there is nothing we can do about it. The ideological people are a very small minority. Most Lemmings (again, according to hard data) preferred to shoot any legal targets.

We have to make compromises to attain the ideological goal. The anti-CFC course stays. 80% is better than 0% which would be reached in the case of failcascade.

Satori Okanata said...

"@Anonymous: I share your worries, but there is nothing we can do about it. The ideological people are a very small minority. Most Lemmings (again, according to hard data) preferred to shoot any legal targets"

There is the exact spot where your logic fails you as you're doing only a numeric assesment of the data, but not a human assesment of it.

For example, las night we were hunting a very sneaky goon tornado in jita. While it kept coming and going and generally teasing us, I kept on shooting random guys just as victims of opportunity. At the end frank popped that tornado, but in the meantime several other targets where shot (by me, and I also managed to die miserably several times) so even when you got several non goon "legal targets" dead, and only one goon, the goon was the one we where really after.

Gevlon said...

@Satori: then now you'll have more "targets of opportunity". Again: no one forces you to shoot other than CFC and CFC is still decced.

Louis Robichaud said...

Well, the end of that project eh? I have mixed feelings about all of this.

I think it is good that you return to your strengths: making isk in various ways and sharing your findings. I think that it is also good that you acknowledge your weaknesses. Shows character and perhaps even the possibility of personal growth.

I was rather irritated that you launched this war vs RvB. It seemed like such a waste of grrr-goons energies and I didn't appreciate the outright fallacies you often repeated about RvB, even after I pointed them out to you.

On the other hand, well you did post some things that were unintentionally hilarious, you did create a 500 member alliance, and most importantly you did create content. That operation vs your wormhole was *very* entertaining.

I'm looking forward to seeing what you will come up with next.

Gevlon said...

@LR: nothing really changed. I just stop backseat alliance leading and spend more time getting ISK to kill Goons and their slaves (hint: that includes you).

I will diversify my money between more mercenary groups and want to reach half T damage/month to Goons +slaves in a few months. Also I wish to cleanse Goon POCOs from highsec, they really don't belong.

Anonymous said...

man man....

We will not stop any of our Operations.

Gevlon is now free to Focus on generating isk and we do the PVP Thing.

@Noir its not hard to take goon pocos 9 jumps out of the main Region. We took 2 and pooped in sum 3 of them (and we had a formed goon fleet after us).

So stop chestbeating and go for the pocos in :" Urlen,Perimeter,Sobaseki,Maurasi etc".

I can just repeat what i wrote in the eve Forums weeks ago.

"
@Lucas Kell

Its Time to tell you a secret about me Smile

I fought the goons with several toons in almost every fight the last few years.

I was there as Fountain fall and fought to my last rifter.

btw shame on enlighted industries!!!

I will be always there where is a Chance to get bee pods.

and i dont give f*** about Blogs or this creepy News site!

you can try to divide us with your "you should get paid stuff" it doesnt care me at all.

if somone would donate a fully faction fitted vindicator to me i would go straight ahead to vfk and ram it into goons face.

and why ?

I dont like your arrogance and i think iam not alone with that Twisted

the goons are a fat whale sitting on the most of the 0.0 income and deny younger alliances to find their place in 0.0 sec.

but there is blood in the water Twisted"

doc know

Lucas Kell said...

@doc know
"I fought the goons with several toons in almost every fight the last few years.

I was there as Fountain fall and fought to my last rifter."
Congratulations. You clearly did very well.

"you can try to divide us with your "you should get paid stuff" it doesnt care me at all."
I'm not trying to divide you at all, and I don't remember saying you should get paid. You certainly won't survive with no financial backing and things like SRP though as the realism is people have other choices. People can move to BNI for example which is just as easy to get into but provide a well built structure and leadership.

"if somone would donate a fully faction fitted vindicator to me i would go straight ahead to vfk and ram it into goons face."
And decisions like that are why I'm not worried about lemmings leadership ever taking them places. Any sensible person would sell it and buy fleets of more combat capable ships. You'd fly it towards VFK, and basically donate it to the pilot that caught you en route. You see I happen to understand that this is a game and I make decisions based on how I feel it would benefit my entertainment. You however seem to have some kind of anger directed at the goons, so clearly you can't separate the game from your emotions. You should really learn to chill out.

"I dont like your arrogance and i think iam not alone with that"
I don't doubt you feel that way, but is it really me being arrogant? The CFC is a large group that have proven time and time again that we can beat our enemies. If we hadn't we'd have been destroyed. You however put on this macho bravado stating quite clearly that you think your group (which is made up of literally anyone) is better than the CFC. When you destroy the CFC, and prove yourselves then you can claim that without it being egotistic nonsense. Until then, I won't hold my breath.

"the goons are a fat whale sitting on the most of the 0.0 income and deny younger alliances to find their place in 0.0 sec."
No, like ALL of the other sov holding alliances, we simply protect what we own. If you aren't strong enough to come in and kick us out, why should we just hand over space to younger alliances? I hear this "but the little guy..." argument all the time, but what it boils down to is that they are not willing to do what needs to be done. They want to remain a tiny group, take some space and have people leave them alone because they are smaller. That's just not the way it works. Is it fair? Of course not, but neither is life. So deal with it.

Genuinely though, best of luck in your crusade. It's content generating at the very least and as long as you can have fun doing it and not give yourself an aneurism then it's all good. And the standing invitation is open to all of you. Find me at fanfest and we'll grab a beverage.

Anonymous said...


@ Lucas

"And the standing invitation is open to all of you. Find me at fanfest and we'll grab a beverage."

will never happen

doc know

Anonymous said...

@doc know

"will never happen"

I was concerned about Gevlon's announcement. I thought I might leave Lemmings. I want to kill Goons, not be a merc. But as long as you are here to spit in the face of Lucas Kell, I will always be a Lemming.