Greedy Goblin

Tuesday, February 4, 2014

Titans sell EVE. Frigs don't!

Update: We've found an error in Zkillboard loss statistics, this slightly changed yesterdays post.

Look at the new player graph on eve-offline!

The largest ISK battle at B-R got not only a huge press coverage, but an unmatched influx of players. 6VDT, the largest player count battle on July 28 also got huge media attention, but much smaller and shorter span new player surge. Why?

Because finally, EVE fulfilled what it promised in the trailers. The actions of players made an impact. $300000 is real enough to make the "EVE is real" slogan true. This is the unique selling point of EVE. Meaningful impact on a completely player-driven sandbox. Everyone who was there could rightfully claim to shape the future of this universe. Those titans won't respawn!

Many players had enough of the WoW model: grind mindlessly, get reward, be the same hero as every braindead ape who cared to log in, it gets obsolete in a month anyway. They want to put their mark on the World. They want to matter. They want all other players to see what they've done. EVE is the only game offering that. Why don't they flock to it?

Because the offer - up to B-R - was a lie. The player joined with the dream of conquering the galaxy and found exactly what he left behind: idiots dancing on the postbox for lols. Except in EVE there is no postbox, so they have to do it in frigates. "Empires" with income and kills in the magnitude of a dozen good players. Wars starting because of the usage of "mate". Coalitions broken because of a Falcon. Lolroams looking for "good fights". Griefers looking for newbie tears. Tell me, how is it different from a PvP WoW server? How is it different from the bridge of Arathi Basin?

So the once motivated player quits EVE and goes to the "WoW killer of the month" in vain hopes. Whose fault it is? It's the fault of the developer of course! Listening to the cries of bad players they buffed the T1 and small ships to make PvP action "accessible". "tiericide" is the CCP codeword for "welfare epics". You can't afford a Tengu? Here, take this Caracal, almost free and almost as good! You can't afford a dread, but have enough scrubs in your corp: you can take a region in bombless bombers!

Tiericide must be undone and the price-power curve fixed to force everyone who want to make impact to put billions on the line. Cheap crap belongs to newbies and no one else. Why? Because this is the only way to fulfill the "actions have consequences" offer. If the ship is expensive, losing it hurts. No one cares losing a Caracal, Drake or Talwar. They just reship the same way as the dead Arathi Basin loller respawns at the spirit healer.

No, it's not my opinion, it's the opinion of tens of thousands of players who flocked to EVE seeing B-R. If you keep the balance the way it is, they will notice that the battle was a one-time show, the true EVE is pointless and risk-free friglolling. And Pandas are cuter and WoW rotations are more complex, needing more hand-eye coordination "skillz".

Do you want EVE and DUST grow? Fulfill your promise, make it a game where losing matters, where victory is real! The key of the future is the Erebus and not the Rifter. Change the ships and modules in a way that everyone farms like crazy for his stronger, larger, more important ship! My best idea is the parallel of gun resolution, where the 400m large gun can't hit the small frigs. Armor/shields should have similar property: small guns shouldn't put a dent into battleship armor (just like a pistol does zero damage on a heavy tank). It doesn't make smaller ships useless. Frigate hull ships can still tackle, scout, cyno and EWAR. Also bring back T2 and faction superiority over T1! A T2 or pirate cruiser should be going 50-50 in a 1v3 against T1 cruisers assuming equal player skill. It still costs 10x more (remember that T1 hull is fully insurable), so you'd still get more bang for a buck in T1, but not that much more to make a T2 ship ALOD in the moment of undocking. Finally and most importantly: capital smartbombs, a way to clear up subcraps from the field where the big guys are playing. Make B-R the standard and EVE will have 2M players in a year!

The market is full of "fun PvP" games. The market is full of MMOs which allow random PvP action (griefing). The only thing making EVE different is losses, impact and economy. Make them matter and the after-B-R new player influx will last forever! Sure, people who prefer "fun fights" would go back to WoW, but who cares when 10 new players come when one scrub leaves.

Finally a nice little ship addition: empire faction capitals and supers. Like Caldari Navy Leviathan. They would have exactly the same stats as their normal counterparts, but 10% more expensive, having no jump drive, can't fit bridge, but the capitals are manufacturable in stations and the supers in X-large assembly array everywhere. This way highsec and WH residents could have their own capitals and supers that are locked to that system. They can't take gates or wormholes (the supers), but they can take part in the POS and POCO wars, WH defenses. Wouldn't they be a good reason for highsec and WH residents to work for? Also, to fill the gap between the capitals and supers, introduce pirate faction dreads and carriers.

PS: look, Lemmings are way over 200 members. We have now comms, fleets are forming, soon we'll be able to take RvB head on, forcing Goons to form up.

34 comments:

grumpymouse said...

Jack up the prices, and all the players and news outlets will be frothing at the mouth trumpeting that EVE has become a p2w game.

Guerdon Malpheron said...

"This way highsec and WH residents could have their own capitals and supers that are locked to that system."

Interesting idea. I wonder what unintentional circumstances would arise from such a implementation. EVE, being a sandbox, seems to be wrought with these, but that adds to the fun and realism!

Also I wonder what argument Lucas Kell comes up with this time to deflate your idea, insult your intelligence, call you misanthropic and claim you have no idea how EVE works. Keep up your blogging, I enjoy the read. And Kell don't stop your antagonism. It makes for a fun afternoon read.

Anonymous said...

Your basic premise is wrong for a start. You look at BR vs 6VDT and conclude that the only reason for the influx of players was the use of titans. You also have no evidence that the players flocked to eve because of B-R alone. A single graph provides you with some insight, but it doesn't provide you with definitive answers. Certainly not enough to make your grandiose claims on.

You then go on to misunderstand Tiericide, which was never about buffing for welfare - it was about making ships *within a ship line* useful. Prior to Tiericide you were lucky if each race had one useful ship in each line. You almost never saw certain hulls being used. Tiericide gives ships within a line roles without buffing them to the point of OP outside of their lines.

The superiority of a ship is not as cut and dry as T1 vs T2. T1 has been stated by CCP to be very generalist - to give people a flavour for doing certain things on the battlefield. T2 is designed to be highly specialised and in that specialised role they are kings. For example, a guardian shouldn't be able to win in a fight vs T1 ships, but it should (and does) out perform it's T1 logistics counterparts in logistics roles. You will find the same is true for almost every single ship role in the game. Where this isn't the case CCP is balancing actively to make it the case. T1 is "jack of all trades", T2 is "highly specialised", T3 is "make it how you want it". It isn't (and shouldn't be) "T3 beats T2 beats T1" - because you'll end up with one class of ships being flown in the game and the rich diversity goes away. The game becomes a "who can blob with the most powerful ship" game. Which is dumb.

The Future is not the Erebus as you claim it to be. It cannot be. The major powers in the game are literally REELING at the cost incurred from the losses at B-R. It had a real impact - that real impact may well be that we never see titan losses on this scale again. The costs relative to their effectiveness is astronomical. The time required to build a titan fleet relative to its effectiveness are likewise enormous.

You make a false argument by comparing the Erebus to the Rifter. I don't think the future is Rifters (though they certainly have their place, even outside "lolling around in frigs" as you put it). But there will, and should, continue to be sub capital fleets roaming eve. They have been and there is no reason to believe they wont be the mainstay for many years to come. Every ship matters. Every ship has a role to play. Titans will continue to be useful, but they will not become the mainstay. CCP will nerf them into the dirt long before we see a thousand titans in a fleet.

Anonymous said...

Almost everything you said here is wrong. The only right thing is new player influx. It is true that epic battles with big ships are new player magnet. After all, it's nothing exciting about hearing a guy loose a frig. But eve is special in this regard. Pretty much every ship has a role. This titans would be useless without subcap support. Flying a battleship solo is a suicide. In fact, the most skill demanding ship is a frig. It's hard to fit well and harder to fly well. That's why good pvpers tend to fly in them. Grinding for bigger stuff is pretty much the wow approach and you can see yourself how wow is boring in this regard. Ccp knows this, hence tiercide which was universally acclaimed.

Zax said...

New player, or returning players, or new alts?

You claiming things the graph does not say. The graph is "new born", not "never played eve".

There is not a corresponding 10k rise in concurrent logins.

@Guerdon, it is good to see someone who reads gevlon because they like him, I always thought they were mythical beings, but then, I also thought that when I heard some people think Ayn Rand was an economist, or that the world is 6000 years old.

Gevlon said...

@Anonymous: no, the reason of the influx was the $300000 bill. Which can only be achieved with titans and capitals.

I understand T2 specialization, but they don't beat T1 enough. I mean a gang with 10 DPS ships and 3 T1 logi will win over a gang with the same 10 DPS ships and 1 T2 logi, despite the second is more expensive.

There are awful lot of T3, T2 and pirate ships. Much more than T1. The "rich diversity" survives if T1 is demoted to newbie ships.

Yes, they cry over the losses and if its up to them, it won't happen again. But it's up to CCP. If they balance the ships in a way that a titan beats 5 capitals, a slowcat beats 5 battleships, then they'll be forced to.

@Zax: real players (not bots) play 1-2 hours a day. So 1 player adds 1/12-1/24 concurrent login.

Raziel Walker said...

I do not feel that big ships should be immune to small ship damage. But instead of resistances perhaps ships could get a straight up damage reduction when shot at by smaller ships?

Lyxi said...

I am not convinced.

For the same reason that "hardcore" PvP games where you lost everything upon death never quite took off.

You'd have to explain why EvE would/should succeed where others failed.

What is more, your proposed changes will drive off risk-averse people. If we assume a gaussian distribution of risk aversion within a certain population, your claim that for every one who leaves there would be 10 joining is specious.

PvP is a negative-sum game. The only way for one to get ahead is to consistently win. The losers always lose more than the winner gains. In effect, it would be much like gambling.

Where do you get all these thrill-seeking risk-chasing players?

Anonymoose said...

"I understand T2 specialization, but they don't beat T1 enough. I mean a gang with 10 DPS ships and 3 T1 logi will win over a gang with the same 10 DPS ships and 1 T2 logi, despite the second is more expensive."

How is that a bad thing? it means that T1 logi has a reason to exist.

do you just hate the concept of diminishing returns? do you think that lvl 5 skills should train faster than lvl 1 skills?

Anonymous said...

@Anonymous: no, the reason of the influx was the $300000 bill. Which can only be achieved with titans and capitals.
You have to PROVE THAT.. you have some compelling data but you don't have conclusive proof. You fail to take into account everything which happened in the intervening time, the patch deployment, any CTAs being called for resubbing pilots for a particular op...there are countless reasons for the influx. And the numbers DO NOT tell you they are "brand new" players.


I understand T2 specialization, but they don't beat T1 enough. I mean a gang with 10 DPS ships and 3 T1 logi will win over a gang with the same 10 DPS ships and 1 T2 logi, despite the second is more expensive.


This is hard to tell. Certain configurations perhaps. But T2 logi is immensely powerful compared to T1. Breaking the tank on T1 logi is far easier, and whilst the initial part of the engagement might go badly for the T2 side, it is conceivable that they could win. Hard to say when you are just talking about "dps" ships... hard to tell without the comp. The point is I guess, composition matters. Not just "more T2 kitchen sink matters". a well composed fleet of any type is generally more potent than a kitchen sink.

There are awful lot of T3, T2 and pirate ships. Much more than T1. The "rich diversity" survives if T1 is demoted to newbie ships.


I don't really get your point - T1 is newbie really. You have to go through them to get T2. Once you have gone through them you generally fly T2. Because why fly a generalist ship when you can fly a specialised ship?

Your original point however was about tiericide, where you suggested that it meant the power curve was altered so that caracals were almost as powerful as tengus. This is not the case at all. Caracals were balanced within their ship class.

Prior to Tiericide we didn't just have "one ship of each class for each race" being flown, we had "one ship within a class for all races" being flown. The best ship in a line for the best race was chosen by everyone. You had flavours of the month that nearly every entity copied. Now you have truely diverse fleet comps set up to hard counter other comps of comparable ship lines. surely this is more engaging, involving, and interesting?

Yes, they cry over the losses and if its up to them, it won't happen again. But it's up to CCP. If they balance the ships in a way that a titan beats 5 capitals, a slowcat beats 5 battleships, then they'll be forced to.


You are missing the point. They are not "crying about the losses", they are saying they cannot afford to replace them in a timely fashion. They don't have the industry or the cash to replace a loss that big and back up next weekend with the same comp. It may take YEARS to get the numbers back. And that is assuming the CFC doesn't use their now unmatched supercap fleet to stop people building comparable fleets.

This is beyond CCP's ability to balance out. You now have supercap supremacy pushed so far to one side that nobody else can afford to drop them, because they know they will be overrun.

Gevlon said...

@Anonymous: THEY can't replace the titans, because most of them suck and they are held afloat by welfare.

I fully understand diminishing returns, but the curve is too low. A T2 ship costs 10x more than a T1 (with insurance payments) and like 1.5x stronger. I think 10x price should give 2-4x stronger ship.

Anonymous said...

@Anonymous: THEY can't replace the titans, because most of them suck and they are held afloat by welfare.

Firstly, I believe that it is a little more complicated than you are stating it. Titans use an enormous amount of materials, have a 3 stage build process (Ore to materials, materials to components, components to titans) and they take a huge amount of time to build.

They are vulnerable while building and the structures required to build them are expensive. Typically this limits how many titans you can build at once because you need to lock down a system deep within your defensive perimeter for the duration.

Then there is extreme cost.

Then there is the issue that now the CFC know they have supercap superiority they are likely to prevent any other entity gaining the upper hand. This will be done with back room deals under the threat of elimination - so even if an entity could recover financially it is unlikely they will be able to politically.


I fully understand diminishing returns, but the curve is too low. A T2 ship costs 10x more than a T1 (with insurance payments) and like 1.5x stronger. I think 10x price should give 2-4x stronger ship.


Balancing is a little more complex than this, but T2 resists alone make them much more powerful than the numbers difference makes out. They may not muster a 4x stronger in stats, but if you look at overall survivability, how long they can last on the battle field and be kept up by logistics I think you'll find they meet your "4x better" goal. Look beyond the stats, realize that a 2x better tank in a composition including remote repair means much greater than 2x longer survivability on the field. The same goes for damage....

and none of these stats are useful in isolation. 1.5x tank, 1.5x dps, 1.5x speed, 1.5x max targets, 1.5 times range bonus... it all adds up to a ship which is supremely more powerful. A Guardian is immensely more useful than an Augoror...far more than the sum of its difference in statistics would lead you to believe.

Anonymous said...

Surely the battle had an effect on newborn player stats but as you might notice the spike actually starts before the battle in the last days of January... My theory is that it was caused by those being the last days of XMAS gifts being available, I myself created two 51 day accounts on the last day of January since I was going to plex my accounts anyway and doing it then provided me with 2 extra Leopards.

Anonymous said...

We are having this problem at the moment in alliance. People have the isk, and they have the SP, and they want to fly the shiny ships not the T1.

I understand the intention to get people into a lite-version of a fleet role and so on, but the actual outcome is that FCs and leadership now have more excuse to be risk averse and "keep it cheap" using the buffed T1s instead of risking reimbursement of T2s.

Anonymous said...

I heard defenders advantage in a wh cap war wasn't big enough, better give the defenders faction titans. That will surely cause no problems, after all, the attackers can still bring three dreads.

Von Keigai said...

Gevlon, it is not "titans" that sell EVE. It is publicity itself. Including spaceship pictures.

I hope these newbies stick around. But if they do, it won't be because they think they are flying Titans in the next $500000 bloodbath. It will be because they like blowing up virtual spaceships and flying with friends. Both of which can be done just fine in frigates, while lolling.

Gevlon said...

@Anonymous: as most wormholes are empty, I don't see any problem if evicting becomes harder.

@Von Keigai: the problem is that you can blow up pixel things with your friends in EVERY SINGLE VIDEO GAME. So why play EVE Online?

Anonymous said...

@Anonymous: as most wormholes are empty, I don't see any problem if evicting becomes harder.
The ones that aren't empty, specifically in higher class holes (C5s and C6s) drive conflict. They are already almost impregnable fortresses that require months of capital seeding to take out - allowing supers in home systems would make them impossible to besiege...your suggestion would kill occupied wormhole space overnight.

@Von Keigai: the problem is that you can blow up pixel things with your friends in EVERY SINGLE VIDEO GAME. So why play EVE Online?


Because people like blowing up space ships specifically?

Gevlon said...

No, my suggestion would allow populating WH space. A smaller group could set up shop in a C5-6 without putting a "take everything we ever had" sign on them. With supers in the hole, eviction would need such overpower that wouldn't be available unless someone was too busy making enemies.

Too bad that there aren't spaceships in EVE. Just little brackets. Star Wars and Start Trek games are prettier anyway.

Lucas Kell said...

@Gevlon
Just to lead off, I don't entirely disagree with the overall premise. I'm not entirely sure on your reasoning, but yes, titan and supercap battles are a great selling point of eve. Without CCP figures we can;t see how much of that spike is new players, how many is resubs, and how many is just new characters. With the destruction, it's highly probable that players are creating new alts to do thinks like mass mining and industry as there will likely be a spike in the profitability of a titan chain.

Now while supercaps and titans are a great selling point, their effectiveness would decrease if they became the norm. The fact that most people fly CR/BC/T3 and not much more in smaller scale PvP means that when they get to see or be part of a massive supercap battle it's all the more exciting. Even if you compare the reaction now to the reaction when the first titan dropped you can see people are desensitised to it.

And subcaps will always be important. B-R wasn't all capitals. In system and in several systems outside of it thousands of subcaps were busily fighting away for the whole duration of the fight.

"No, my suggestion would allow populating WH space. A smaller group could set up shop in a C5-6 without putting a "take everything we ever had" sign on them. With supers in the hole, eviction would need such overpower that wouldn't be available unless someone was too busy making enemies."
Supers are practically useless on their own. You'd still need a substantial fleet to support them.
And if a smaller group could just take a whole and hold it up against all but a massive force, then that wouldn't be balanced. I fear that what you really want here is a way for you to take a C5/6 and hold it with ease without having to form a group.
One of my favourite things about eve is that in some ways you are forced to have direct interaction with others players. The need to be part of a bigger group and to rely on others is a huge part of the game. It would severaly damage the game to have that reliance broken.

daniel said...

"Make B-R the standard and EVE will have 2M players in a year!"

or you have a dead game as everybody realises that hanging out 24/7 in a lagging tidi fight, pushing f1 every hour or so is ... uhm, i am missing the right word... how a bout "boring"?

you also kill the games economy.


how about if eve goes the other direction, not the titan matters, but the rifter.
imagine fleet battles with thousands of players, where the individual piloting skill of everybody matters. not the eve-skill-level, not the amount of bling on a ridiculous big and expensiv spaceship, but just the skill of the real human being in front of the computerscreen, combined with the individual skill of his squad commander, the platoon commander, the fleet commander etc pp.

THAT would be totally tits.
THAT would be something to make me interested in big fleet fights.
THAT would be the heaven of large engagement pvp games.


as long as eve's fleet pvp stays the same, group weapons, f1, wait, f1 again, way, i really do not see a future for a (much) larger playerbase.
it's dull, it's boring, it's pointless - and to get to the point where u are able to join the dullness, you have to go on a path of endless grinding, and what you suggest is, to extend the endless grinding path for the sake of a ship that is bigger but the same.


reading todays post, thinking of your early eve posts - you haven't advanced in this game. you still fall for the propaganda (may it be goons, or in todays case, ccp's) over and over again.
instead of appreciating how great and awesome this game is, cause it gives each player (allmost) total freedom to do whatever one wants to do in a virtual space universe, u still lust for what you think is the endgame content in a game that doesn't have endgame content, as there is no endgame in this game.

fuck supers and titans. i don't need them, u don't need them, others don't need them, and those that need them have them anyway.

Druur Monakh said...

Gevlon: "No one cares losing a Caracal, Drake or Talwar."

Uhm - I do. Because I have learned to dislike the ISK grind, even though it is what gives the EVE PvP meaning (even at T1 levels), so I reduced it drastically.

I'm not complaining, since that it is my decision, but I mention it to remind you that not everyone has a 100B wallet, or interest in "farming like crazy". Whether I'm in the minority or majority, I can't say.

Keeping the 'lower' levels of play alive is also a good thing for the game itself, because it gives new players something fun to play with even though they aren't level-80-ueber-geared yet. And EVE demonstrates that you can have multiple styles and levels of play in the same game, and that they can even complement each other. Throwing out one to concentrate solely on another would be a mistake - it would reduce the number of prospective players, not increase it.

Gevlon said...

@Daniel: EVERY SINGLE MMO PvP offers that. Player skill and reaction time.

EVE is unique about pre-thinking. The battle itself would be best done on auto-calc, it is indeed boring. But the planning, the strategy that leads to that.

There is nothing like that in a frigroam. Just "let's go and kill some nerds and blow up like spamming porn".

Von Keigai said...

you can blow up pixel things with your friends in EVERY SINGLE VIDEO GAME. So why play EVE Online?

(a) Because you can't blow up pixel spaceships with your friends except in EVE. (hat tip: nony)

(b) Because you read that the fights in EVE Online have thousands of players, and you think that's cool compared to the 32 or whatever you have experienced in some other game.

but mainly:

(c) Because you saw EVE Online (and NOT ANY OTHER VIDEO GAME) in the real-world news.


Beyond specific reasons, though, what you are missing here is that there is a whole world of gamers out there. Of them, only a minority keep current with what games are out there (I don't). Only a small percentage have ever tried EVE. Probably the majority have never even heard of EVE, or they have seen an advertisement or two but never seen fit to look into it. It is these players that you reach when EVE gets media coverage outside of the gaming-press ghetto.

Gevlon said...

@Von Keigai: but why does EVE Online gets into real-world news? Because of frigroams? Because of scanning frigs slain by a Manticore at a wormhole entrance?

No, because of the $300000 titans.

LukeP said...

Good points, especially in context of previous posts.


Being almost rookie myself, I very often hear new guys, and what they rage against:

1) you can't pilot your ship
2) you can't pilot your ship!!!!!!
3) WTF is this spreadsheet?

about half quit at that point.

rest get to like those cheap ships .. and they join alliance of some sort and get stuck in those t1 frigs for 6 months while doing Q. Obviously most of them quit after month or two, max, because every thing fun is 6 months to 2 years away.

And Titan up close is nowhere near magnificient beast it was supposed to be.

T1 frigs blob, titans blob. It is same strategy on every level: bring more shit than your opponents.

Those battles look nice on reports and screenshots, but mechanically it is primitve brawl without much strategy.

Well, there is strategy: bring more shit than your opponents or die horribly.

This game requires serious mechanics review, but that also require for CPP to unstuck their collective heads from their asses .. and I have doubts they can do that. They are running effing python on the backend last time I checked, and wonder just why servers melt. .. and I would be guessing guys capable to decipher codebase are nowhere to be found. Hope I am wrong on that one, cause, clunky as it is I love this game.

Anonymous said...

"but why does EVE Online gets into real-world news? Because of frigroams? Because of scanning frigs slain by a Manticore at a wormhole entrance?

No, because of the $300000 titans."

That only proves $300k are good for marketing. That doesn't imply people should flock to titans and abandon everything else. We would end up in the WoW situation - every piece of gear besides the endgame, is meaningless junk. And with too many players having the best stuff, devs HAVE TO make another expansion to introduce the next grind target. Eve is great for not needing that. I've killed battleships with t1 frigs (and before tiercide even) and laughed when they couldn't reach me with smartbombs. Every ship matters. Period.

daniel said...

"There is nothing like that in a frigroam."

maybe you are wrong.

"Just "let's go and kill some nerds and blow up like spamming porn"."

maybe you should start to understand, that test, and it's specific culture, are in no means representative for the eve community.


but how would you know?! you never went on a roam, and u never experienced anything else than test.

Anonymous said...

"Because this is the only way to fulfill the "actions have consequences" offer"

How are you upholding this offer when advising people to gank, scout and loot with three unrelated alts in different corps?

Not a lot of consequences in such a setup, eh?

Anonymous said...

@Gevlon

Actually, eve most often gets in the news for market related scams.

So maybe you should push that angle instead.

Search the history of Eve stories in the media. Count how many are not to do with battles.

Anonymous said...

Why do you believe a loss has to be completely devastating to have meaning in pvp? Furthermore, why do you think larger ships need to be able to completely obliterate smaller ones to keep pvp interesting? You honestly sound like someone has a fundamentally different notion about what makes this game fun that most other players, so if you're going to argue something like this you're going to need something beyond your opinion to back up these rather bizarre claims being made.

Anonymous said...

No, my suggestion would allow populating WH space. A smaller group could set up shop in a C5-6 without putting a "take everything we ever had" sign on them. With supers in the hole, eviction would need such overpower that wouldn't be available unless someone was too busy making enemies.
As a C6 resident I can tell you we don't WANT eviction to be harder. C6 space has become stagnant enough as it is without adding supers to the mix. Seriously, as it stands now if we want to take out an enemy we have to log alts off in their system for weeks, sometimes months. In many cases we lock up mains to do it too.. it is terrible game play. Supers and Titans in WH space, especially if one side can have them and the other can't, would make eviction entirely impossible. The rich groups would just maintain a fleet of a dozen or so supers which would be utterly unbeatable.

Too bad that there aren't spaceships in EVE. Just little brackets. Star Wars and Start Trek games are prettier anyway.


wait? what? gevlon trolling in his own comments?

Gevlon said...

"Fun PvP" is fun by definition. However every game offers that. WoW has that in Arathi Basin bridge.

EVE simply has no selling point here and its small budget makes it impossible to keep up with content generation against other MMOs.

However EVE has something that WoW doesn't: impact PvP. I'm not saying everyone must fly titans in fleets. But everyone should aspire for it. Most will settle with a T2, faction or T3 subcap, maybe for a capital. But when coalitions clash, the losses should be in the range of 0.5-5B/player and not 20M. Remember, GSF both killed and lost less than 1B/YEAR/member in 2013, despite war after war.

@Anonymous: yes, YOU who are on top of WH would be unhappy if you couldn't evict anyone. But WH space is empty because of you! WH space should be saved from you. You are the problem!

Druur Monakh said...

Gevlon: "But everyone should aspire for [flying a Titan a fleet]."

Nope. Not a chance. I'm too much independently minded to take up that kind of reliance on others. They are big, lumbering, over-engineered, two-trick ponies. Even battleships are better suited for my interest in play (disregarding finances for the moment).

This is not WoW - getting the most-purplest gear is neither necessary, nor even useful.