EVE is real. Like in life, only two things are certain. Death, and taxes:
Now about deaths! I made statistics from the losses of Darwins Lemmings for the first week of the war with RvB as allies to Goons. I've checked all the losses from Jan 16 to Jan 22 available on Zkillboard.com. The raw data is available behind the click. The losses were classified into 3 groups: RvB, Goon and other. If there were multiple killers, the kill was distributed according to damage done:
Ouch! The mighty Goonswarm caused literally less damage to the Lemmings than their own renters. Just as I predicted, the Goons are completely unable to function without a blob and an FC telling them when to breath. The reason why they still have their POCOs and didn't turn into a laughing stock is their highsec pet RvB. The term "pet" is completely accurate as there is their cooperation is completely one-sided: Goons aren't contributing to the war at all and their slaves do all the work. There is no point contemplating over what kind of deal (RMT?) was made between RvB and Goon directors, but seeing their highsec power difference, it's clear that RvB as an organization would be much better off taking the Goon POCOs for themselves instead of defending them for their masters.
However this result made me think, about the nullsec participation of Goons within CFC. I remember FA having equal numbers at 6VDT as GSF, but that's anecdotal evidence. What I need is hard data and I'm ready to pay serious ISK for it. What kind of data I need: kills from Zkillboard.com (or EVE-kill) that have Goons on it as killers. These are the kills that are booked for Goonswarm, showing up on their killboard. I need all the "Goon kills" from 2013 with the following fields:
PS: I wonder how long can RvB hold the war when their losses are high and being a Goon pet isn't exactly helping them recruiting more people. They are already seem to look for the way out on the forum.
Here is the raw data in format zkillboard_code,value,Goon_participation,RvB_participation,X (as linebreak)
36125015,16.4,,1,X 36124806,13.5,,1,X 36124338,8.4,,1,X 36124326,10.1,,1,X 36124238,31.5,,1,X 36119060,2.9,,,X 36111081,33.2,,,X 36108282,41.8,,1,X 36108278,0.3,,1,X 36107092,32.2,0.64,,X 36104477,45.8,,1,X 36104464,9.2,,1,X 36104257,10.9,,1,X 36103085,0,,1,X 36103037,31.9,,1,X 36102775,67.9,,,X 36102768,14.2,,,X 36102078,52.8,,,X 36102076,11.5,,,X 36092264,0,,,X 36092238,3.3,,,X 36092125,44.8,,,X 36088635,86.2,,1,X 36087200,0,,1,X 36087182,118,,1,X 36086047,13.6,,1,X 36085961,31,,1,X 36085627,13.9,,1,X 36085377,36.5,,1,X 36081266,42.7,,,X 36080504,0,,,X 36080150,128.7,,1,X 36073048,18,,1,X 36071439,15.1,,1,X 36067483,15.9,,,X 36067331,13.7,,,X 36064682,77.3,,1,X 36063663,111.9,,,X 36062247,36.8,,,X 36055871,12.2,,,X 36055762,80.2,,1,X 36055038,13.3,,,X 36053416,12.9,,,X 36051910,183.2,,1,X 36051762,13.1,,1,X 36046318,0,,1,X 36046280,10.7,,1,X 36045063,77.2,,1,X 36041059,14.5,,,X 36035779,0,,1,X 36034369,27.7,1,,X 36033628,11.8,0.79,,X 36022626,32.5,,1,X 36021265,34.9,,1,X 36018999,0.1,,1,X 36018992,3.3,,1,X 36017868,0,,1,X 36017836,0,,1,X 36017727,0,,1,X 36017664,45.3,,1,X 36016045,35.7,,1,X 36015004,35.2,,1,X 36007606,22.6,,1,X 36007589,30.5,,1,X 36005989,1.5,,,X 36005886,4,,1,X 36005747,32.3,,1,X 36002017,7.3,,1,X 35997417,114.9,,1,X 35997410,85.5,,1,X 35997387,70.7,,1,X 35996927,192.5,,1,X 35995568,0,,1,X 35995557,1,,1,X 35991204,37.1,1,,X 35982572,2,,1,X 35982573,21.2,,1,X 35982490,0,,1,X 35982485,32.7,,1,X 35979162,1.5,,,X 35979080,13.6,,1,X 35979058,0,,1,X 35979037,655.7,,1,X 35979005,86.3,,1,X 35978954,39.3,,1,X 35978947,25.4,,1,X 35978919,30.8,,1,X 35978739,0.8,,1,X 35978511,13.6,,1,X 35977910,52.2,,1,X 35977906,45.4,,1,X 35977790,16.2,,1,X 35977671,5.1,,,X 35977120,1.9,,1,X 35976799,14.6,,1,X 35976724,17.1,,1,X 35976725,22.2,,1,X 35976716,10.1,,1,X 35975919,71.4,,1,X 35974668,34.4,,1,X 35974327,12.3,,1,X 35971796,0,,,X 35968884,530.7,,,X 35968879,80.4,,,X 35966149,31.8,1,,X
Now about deaths! I made statistics from the losses of Darwins Lemmings for the first week of the war with RvB as allies to Goons. I've checked all the losses from Jan 16 to Jan 22 available on Zkillboard.com. The raw data is available behind the click. The losses were classified into 3 groups: RvB, Goon and other. If there were multiple killers, the kill was distributed according to damage done:
| Goons | RvB | Other | |
| Ship kills | 4.4 | 75.0 | 25.6 |
| Million ISK | 126 | 3090 | 1138 |
Ouch! The mighty Goonswarm caused literally less damage to the Lemmings than their own renters. Just as I predicted, the Goons are completely unable to function without a blob and an FC telling them when to breath. The reason why they still have their POCOs and didn't turn into a laughing stock is their highsec pet RvB. The term "pet" is completely accurate as there is their cooperation is completely one-sided: Goons aren't contributing to the war at all and their slaves do all the work. There is no point contemplating over what kind of deal (RMT?) was made between RvB and Goon directors, but seeing their highsec power difference, it's clear that RvB as an organization would be much better off taking the Goon POCOs for themselves instead of defending them for their masters.
However this result made me think, about the nullsec participation of Goons within CFC. I remember FA having equal numbers at 6VDT as GSF, but that's anecdotal evidence. What I need is hard data and I'm ready to pay serious ISK for it. What kind of data I need: kills from Zkillboard.com (or EVE-kill) that have Goons on it as killers. These are the kills that are booked for Goonswarm, showing up on their killboard. I need all the "Goon kills" from 2013 with the following fields:
- Kill code: the number that the killboard uses on its normal interface. For example the mentioned renter kill is available on https://zkillboard.com/detail/36063663/. So the first field is "36063663" for that kill.
- Kill value: the grand total of the kill. "111882996.79" on the example kill
- Goonwaffe participation: the sum of the damage % of killers belonging to Goonwaffe corporation. On the example kill, both killers belong to "30plus" corporation, if the first one would be Goonwaffe member, this field would be 67.2%.
- Goonswarm participation: the sum of the damage % of killers belonging to Goonswarm Federation alliance.
PS: I wonder how long can RvB hold the war when their losses are high and being a Goon pet isn't exactly helping them recruiting more people. They are already seem to look for the way out on the forum.
Here is the raw data in format zkillboard_code,value,Goon_participation,RvB_participation,X (as linebreak)
36125015,16.4,,1,X 36124806,13.5,,1,X 36124338,8.4,,1,X 36124326,10.1,,1,X 36124238,31.5,,1,X 36119060,2.9,,,X 36111081,33.2,,,X 36108282,41.8,,1,X 36108278,0.3,,1,X 36107092,32.2,0.64,,X 36104477,45.8,,1,X 36104464,9.2,,1,X 36104257,10.9,,1,X 36103085,0,,1,X 36103037,31.9,,1,X 36102775,67.9,,,X 36102768,14.2,,,X 36102078,52.8,,,X 36102076,11.5,,,X 36092264,0,,,X 36092238,3.3,,,X 36092125,44.8,,,X 36088635,86.2,,1,X 36087200,0,,1,X 36087182,118,,1,X 36086047,13.6,,1,X 36085961,31,,1,X 36085627,13.9,,1,X 36085377,36.5,,1,X 36081266,42.7,,,X 36080504,0,,,X 36080150,128.7,,1,X 36073048,18,,1,X 36071439,15.1,,1,X 36067483,15.9,,,X 36067331,13.7,,,X 36064682,77.3,,1,X 36063663,111.9,,,X 36062247,36.8,,,X 36055871,12.2,,,X 36055762,80.2,,1,X 36055038,13.3,,,X 36053416,12.9,,,X 36051910,183.2,,1,X 36051762,13.1,,1,X 36046318,0,,1,X 36046280,10.7,,1,X 36045063,77.2,,1,X 36041059,14.5,,,X 36035779,0,,1,X 36034369,27.7,1,,X 36033628,11.8,0.79,,X 36022626,32.5,,1,X 36021265,34.9,,1,X 36018999,0.1,,1,X 36018992,3.3,,1,X 36017868,0,,1,X 36017836,0,,1,X 36017727,0,,1,X 36017664,45.3,,1,X 36016045,35.7,,1,X 36015004,35.2,,1,X 36007606,22.6,,1,X 36007589,30.5,,1,X 36005989,1.5,,,X 36005886,4,,1,X 36005747,32.3,,1,X 36002017,7.3,,1,X 35997417,114.9,,1,X 35997410,85.5,,1,X 35997387,70.7,,1,X 35996927,192.5,,1,X 35995568,0,,1,X 35995557,1,,1,X 35991204,37.1,1,,X 35982572,2,,1,X 35982573,21.2,,1,X 35982490,0,,1,X 35982485,32.7,,1,X 35979162,1.5,,,X 35979080,13.6,,1,X 35979058,0,,1,X 35979037,655.7,,1,X 35979005,86.3,,1,X 35978954,39.3,,1,X 35978947,25.4,,1,X 35978919,30.8,,1,X 35978739,0.8,,1,X 35978511,13.6,,1,X 35977910,52.2,,1,X 35977906,45.4,,1,X 35977790,16.2,,1,X 35977671,5.1,,,X 35977120,1.9,,1,X 35976799,14.6,,1,X 35976724,17.1,,1,X 35976725,22.2,,1,X 35976716,10.1,,1,X 35975919,71.4,,1,X 35974668,34.4,,1,X 35974327,12.3,,1,X 35971796,0,,,X 35968884,530.7,,,X 35968879,80.4,,,X 35966149,31.8,1,,X
43 comments:
Their "pets" outnumber goonswarm federation. The CFC is made up of many many alliances. You'd need to normalize the numbers to alliance size to get any "real" information.
Also RvB shouldn't count - they are not part of the clusterfuck. They just have a treaty. If you are going to include RvB you should include Pandemic Legion as they have a treaty with goons as well.
Also how goes your war? you answered me in a previous post that your victory objective is the eradication of all goon owned POCOs in highsec, and anything less would be a failure. I'd be interested to know how this objective is progressing now you are a couple of weeks into your exercise.
One thing worth remembering with these stats is that Goonwaffe themselves have multiple corps in the goonswarm alliance. Alt corporations and so forth.
The organisation is so large that they routinely exceed corp cap so they are organised into smaller groups. It isn't always obvious that this is happening - a Goonwaffe alt corp looks on paper to be exactly the same as a GSF member corp. You'll need to normalize this in order to get any reasonably accurate stats on Goonwaffe participation.
>Ship kills 4.4 75.0 25.6
Hi Gevlon,
no need to publish this comment.
Could you clarify on the metric used? Are those percentages? Would add up to 105%
Erm... you can't claim that RvB gets nothing from the relationship thus are pets, and then mutter about RvB getting some kind of compensation, perhaps RMT! Is RvB getting something or nothing? Make up your mind.
LR
That should be pretty obvious since goons live in null while rvb in hisec. So what is your point?
Ship kills are ship kills. 50 means 50 dead ships. The numbers aren't integer because if on a kill 40% damage is done by a Goon, then Goons get 0.4 kill.
RvB gets nothing. An RvB director probably gets some RMT $.
My point is that as Goons have no presence in highsec, RvB gains nothing from their treaty.
@Gevlon
"My point is that as Goons have no presence in highsec, RvB gains nothing from their treaty."
They made the treaty to prevent goons and RVB going to war over a bunch of poco, spending loads of time reinforcing structures.
Seriously, this has all been explained in great detail, so I can only assume you are purposely ignoring all of the facts so you can post stuff like this, but honestly, it just makes you look ignorant.
Frankly, I'm getting pretty bored reading these now. Some of your stuff, while wrong used to be entertaining, but now every day is practically the same with you now, and it's all just the same troll posts based on stuff you've pretty much made up and that we can tell at a glance is just you having a paddy. Then look at the only actual fact you've got. A high sec alliance killed more in high sec than a nullsec one? You don't say! Quick, call the media.
Let me know when you start doing something interesting again.
Goons for years haven't won their wars themselves. In fact I can not think of one occasion where they did.
Their most celebrated victory over BoB? The real fighting was done by Pl and the old NC, goons just grinded down undefended towers at night...
It's always their ability to use others for their cause that you should be aware of, not the weak goonlings
@Lucas: at first RvB has no reason to avoid war with Goons as Goons has zero presence in highsec
Secondly, even if they set a non-aggression pact, it doesn't explain why RvB is defending Goon assets.
They have a mutual defense agreement. There is just a lot of idiots in eve who call that a nap.
@Gevlon
"at first RvB has no reason to avoid war with Goons as Goons has zero presence in highsec"
When high sec pocos got release everyone made a dash for them, goons included. Since around Jita was the popular spot, everyone would fight over those ones. By making a pact, RvB and goons could share them without having to waste time figuring out if they were going to attack each other and shooting each others. It was and remains mutually beneficial.
"Secondly, even if they set a non-aggression pact, it doesn't explain why RvB is defending Goon assets."
As part of the pact, a mutual defense clause was created. Mainly to ensure larger groups would not be able to attack without both RvB and goons getting involved. RvB also like targets though, so they just see it as a free war. The fact is that goons would join in on defense if there was an actual threat. If RvB didn't want to join in, I don;t suppose goons would really hold them to the pact over you, since that's not what it's for. The pact is to prevent bigger alliances muscling in on the POCOs.
Honestly, this is not rocket science stuff. If I had to guess, I'd say RvB are in this half for the free targets, and half because nobody like the arrogant misplaced superiority that the lemmings have had from day 1. That general lemming guy is not the brightest spark when it comes to alliance relations.
@Lucas: at first RvB has no reason to avoid war with Goons as Goons has zero presence in highsec
...except that isn't true.
And also the pocos.
Goons wanted forge region pocos to drain highsec scrub tears. They've done this successfully (see forum tears about goon monopolization of pocos and how unfair that is).
RvB wanted forge region pocos to get targets to shoot at because shooting things in highsec is what RvB do (either each other in the face, or other people because they can).
So basically 2 rather powerful groups wanted the same pocos. The options were:
1) goons and rvb go to war, and grind each other's structures down in a war which can net neither any strategic value
2) they recognise that their goals are compatible, split the pocos down the middle and sign a mutual defense pact.
Now, ignoring your poorly informed goon prejudice, which is the most stabilizing option in line with each other's goals? of course it is number 2. Neither party could hold all the pocos against each other in the long term... but together their forces can basically corner the entire market. RvB is there for random shooting and if things actually got serious (which would only happen if another large nulsec entity decided to challenge for superiority in the Forge pocos - no highsec alliance is ever going to come close) then RvB can rely on thousands of goons to help them.
Seems like a fairly good deal for both sides here. Neither is each other's "pet".
Also please answer how is your war going? your stated victory condition is to clear out all of the goon owned highsec POCOs...how many have you killed so far?
@Lucas: the question is why do a locally dominating entity signs a mutual defense pact with a locally non-existent.
It's like I'd put up some CSAA towers in Deklein and Goons would agree to mutually defense pact, meaning that Goons form multiple fleets if N3 reinforces my towers and I form a Rifter if anyone reinforces Goon structures in Deklein. That would be a fair treaty, right?
@Gevlon
"the question is why do a locally dominating entity signs a mutual defense pact with a locally non-existent."
Because it's easier and less time consuming than fighting them. And while goons don't exist in high sec as a regular thing, if there were a serious threat they would form up.
Do you honestly not understand why people make political decisions to avoid some types of fighting? RvB don't want to sit around repping POCO that goons have reinforced, and goons don't want to have to come back to high sec to rep POCOs that RvB have reinforced. RVB also want more high sec fights. Thus the perfect fit was to agree to not shoot each other POCOs and run defense on each others. This way RvB gets fights, both sides have less chance of needing to defend, and the biggest opposition to the POCOs from each side is no longer a threat.
Just look at the recent PL pact, PL and the CFC have agreements in place to avoid fights in certain areas and not to assist allies in certain types of fights as well as restrictions on numbers. It's politics, that's all it is.
"Goons has zero presence in highsec"
This is news, from which source did you ascertain this?
I am fairly sure Goons have had a highsec presence for a long time, otherwise someone has been putting red blobs all over my overview for fun.
I'd charge you 5 Billion ISK for the data including support for minor changes as well as much lesser price for any other statistics (as I would have most of the code for that already). I'd ship the source code as well if you need it.
I will contact you ingame as soon as I'm on a computer which runs Eve, which should be about 15:30 (+1 timezone, I think 14:30 eve time)
My email: b9be067a@opayq.com
BTW, I assume you'll want the data in an format which you can easily import into excel (.csv) but I can ship in any common format you want.
This guy gets it. I posted here on day one that rvb would drop the war after two weeks once we had our fun and that gevlon would find a way to call it a win. Man its like I can see the future!
RvB is doing all the work why not take all of the rewards. Also they already have a overwhelming presence in the area where anyone else would have to come and setup shop if it's going to be a long war and in doing that will weaken where ever they had to remove those fleets from. Fighting multiple wars on multiple fronts is always a bad idea.
@Professor clio: why? Did the fun go away? As far as I see, ships die on both sides regularly, so no blueballing, no blobbing, or such "no fun" activity is forcing you to leave.
If you joined for fun, you should stay and have more good fights!
Or... are you starting to get messages from N3 diplos that you must stop protecting Goon assets or you'll be declared the enemy of N3?
@Gevlon
"Or... are you starting to get messages from N3 diplos that you must stop protecting Goon assets or you'll be declared the enemy of N3?"
Are you still harping on about this? N3 know as well as any other large group that politics are more complex than the black and white picture you paint. If they weren't then PL would also be an enemy of N3, as they have an even larger non aggression pact with the CFC.
At no point is N3 going to turn around to an alliance like RvB, and declare them an enemy because of a high sec deal with the CFC. They would gain nothing from doing it and simply push RvB to one side of the fight, rather than being on neither side as it currently stands. If they declared people enemies the moment they made a deal with the CFC, they'd soon find themselves with no allies, since most alliances have made various deals in the past. At the end of the day they have to look at what is beneficial to them.
By the way, are you guys still actually doing your war thing? Lemmings seems to have pretty much halted growth, certainly not reaching the 200 it was supposed to. In fact, if I pull my alts, we can get it back to double digits.
@Lucas: having a business deal or a non-aggression pact is one thing. No one shuns RvB for not attacking Goons. But they went much further, actively protecting their assets.
By the way N3 wins a lot if they manage to find a way to declare RvB hostile: if an N3 member spends an hour on his RvB alt doing frig PvP, that's an hour not spent on farming ISK for (super)capitals or roaming CFC/RUS space hunting for ratters.
Of course they can't just tell their members "you must not spend time with fun, come and serve our agenda" because that's sure member loss. However telling them "you must not be in a CFC fleet" is not something any member can criticize.
@Lucas: having a business deal or a non-aggression pact is one thing. No one shuns RvB for not attacking Goons. But they went much further, actively protecting their assets.
By the way N3 wins a lot if they manage to find a way to declare RvB hostile: if an N3 member spends an hour on his RvB alt doing frig PvP, that's an hour not spent on farming ISK for (super)capitals or roaming CFC/RUS space hunting for ratters.
Of course they can't just tell their members "you must not spend time with fun, come and serve our agenda" because that's sure member loss. However telling them "you must not be in a CFC fleet" is not something any member can criticize.
You have a startling unrealistic idea of how much pressure the leaders of corps can put on their members regularly. Or how much energy leadership puts into keepong line members content snd willing to stsy. It is a give and take between members and leadership, Gevlon. It is not a tyrant to his subjects.
@Lucas Kell: "Frankly, I'm getting pretty bored reading these now."
So why do you then feel the need to post 3 more times in the same thread (to date)? You are even more arrogant and condescending than the Goblin himself.
the question is why do a locally dominating entity signs a mutual defense pact with a locally non-existent.
No, the question is why does a locally dominant entity sign a pact with an even more dominate entity, which is far away. The answer is what people have told you: they want the benefits of peace with that entity.
You don't see any Goons in highsec right now because (a) they are in a nullsec war and need all hands out there, and also (b) because they have cleverly recruited RvB as their highsec agent. However, Goons certainly can mount a very large highsec presence if they want to. RvB knows this. I assume you know it too.
Now, there certainly is an interesting and delicate political situation here between RvB and CFC. I believe, as I think you do, that RvB could defend all the POCOs by itself. That situation would be stable. But it's not the situation that exists. I agree with Marlona Sky that Mangala got played on this one. (Mynnna is no slouch.) But a treaty is a treaty, and RvB is stuck with it.
If I were you, I'd find the text of that treaty and see if you can find some cracks. I.e., are RvB required to attack alien POCOs in the event that a third party kills a CFC POCO and puts up his own? What about if RvB come to own a POCO at a planet formerly owned by CFC? I.e., you might work hard to try to remove a CFC POCO, then quickly install your own and gift it to RvB.
Steel H
I'll save you a bunch of money. The answer\to your question is: Yes.
"Widot and Waffe are godawful, the standards by which everyone else is judged, because they are alliance-sized corps and not expected to display competence. [...] In general, as an organization, if you're approaching Waffe or Widot participation levels, you're in shit. " It's the same for allies.
http://themittani.com/news/gsf-ceo-update-christmas-comes-early
@vlad
"So why do you then feel the need to post 3 more times in the same thread (to date)? You are even more arrogant and condescending than the Goblin himself."
Responses are directed at me and I feel the urge to reply. As for arrogance, it's difficult to not sound arrogant when the points being put across are so far from fact. I have been playing a long time, happen to be in a null alliance and have a keen interest in the political and meta gaming aspects, so I tend to know the subject matter.
@Lucas Kell
Nobody is objecting that RvB and Goons have signed a defense pact with (theoretical) mutual benefits. What you don't seem to comprehend is this agreement is massively unbalanced in favor of Goons.
1. Unbalanced probabilities: Goons have way more enemies than RvB, they also are more provocative, thus more chances of the mutual defense agreement to be triggered to their own benefit.
2. Unbalanced costs: In comparison Goons have a higher resource cost than RvB when they need to mobilize in high sec because RvB is already stationed there. Then Goons benefit more than the other party when they defend together.
Factoring these two unbalances makes this pact the same as Goons saying to RvB : "You will defend us". And that's precisely what's currently happening, making RvB factual Goons pets. (Then knowing if RvB leadership is dumb or if they get a hidden counterpart -I sincerely hope so- is an other story.)
>But a treaty is a treaty, and RvB is stuck with it.
Says who? How about some backstabbing... This is eve afterall.
Goons doing next to nothing gives them already an strong enough argument to get out of it already.
@Lucas Kell:
"Frankly, I'm getting pretty bored reading these now. "
So? It is possible Gevlon does not write this blog solely to please you. I think overexposure to Aweful radiation has warped your mind, causing you to believe that it is right and necessary for the universe to conform to your desires and perspective.
As Gevlon and other commentors have pointed out, it is transparent that the Goons have taken advantage of RvB in this "treaty", deriving all the benefit while providing none in return. The only question is if has happened through stupidity or corruption. A treaty that does not serve both parties will not survive for long.
I think these posts are great, and hope they continue to be posted regularly.
Vive la Lemmings!
"But a treaty is a treaty, and RvB is stuck with it. "
Absolutely not.
There is no reason to honor a treaty that does not serve RvB's interests. The Goons would almost certainly break the treaty without hesitation if it would be to their advantage to do so. They have only gotten where they are now through foul play at key moments.
RvB is a stooge in this agreement. They should wake up and lynch whoever allowed this before it forever tarnishes their reputation.
RvB proposed the treaty to goons so they must have seen some benefits to got to them with it
"RvB gets nothing. An RvB director probably gets some RMT $. "
That doesn't even make any sense. First *all* the RvB leadership would have to be given something, not just a single director. Second, say RvB leadership *did* get something... then RvB isn't doing it for nothing! Otherwise you are implying that *every* alliance is a pet since the members do what leadership says...
LR
I believe you forgot the RvB station system in Vale that is provided by Goons. So they certainly do get "something"
@Anon
"Nobody is objecting that RvB and Goons have signed a defense pact with (theoretical) mutual benefits. What you don't seem to comprehend is this agreement is massively unbalanced in favor of Goons."
It's not unbalanced at all. RvB are not dumb, they know what they are doing and they felt this was good for them. It saved them the hassle of initial confrontation with the goons over POCOs, and gives them easy access to more fights. See you think it's bad because they might spend more time fighting, but to them, that's a good thing, not a bad thing. So goons won't challenge their POCOs, and in return they get to join in on fights. It's pretty much win-win.
@Another Anon
"As Gevlon and other commentors have pointed out, it is transparent that the Goons have taken advantage of RvB in this "treaty", deriving all the benefit while providing none in return. The only question is if has happened through stupidity or corruption. A treaty that does not serve both parties will not survive for long."
The fact that they've pointed it out doesn't make it true. If this pact was with anyone else but the goons, there would be no questions about it's validity, regardless of their input. Basically the post starts with "let's say something derogatory about goons", then the subject matter is filled out around that preconceived principle. High ranking RvB officials have pointed out the reasons for this treaty, and they are simply dismissed. So exactly who is it you think is allowed to say whether a treaty is valid? Just Gevlon?
And as a side note, if goons were needed in high sec, they would form up, so if RvB did run into a situation they couldn't deal with alone, they wouldn't be alone, that's just unlikely to be required.
At the end of the day though, it's all just bad propaganda. It's not the first time we've seen it, hell, it's not the first time we've seen it on this blog, and it probably won't be the last. If you guys were serious about trying to make your stand, you'd focus less on nonsense like this, and more on an actual workable strategy.
@Lucas Kell
"It saved them the hassle of initial confrontation with the goons over POCOs"
Yes, meaning they signed this treaty under pressure.
"See you think it's bad because they might spend more time fighting"
Not at all. "more fights" is only a side effect, we are talking about *political* consequences. I think this treaty is bad, because it actually *forces* RvB to act in favor of Goons as I explained. This is a binding, unbalanced treaty. "more fights" are maybe the easiest thing to get in EVE, RvB gains nothing in this except Goons doesn't attack their POCOs if they do the dirty work. (Which, if it was made obvious at treaty creation, would be called blackmailing. But Goons leadership knows better apparently.)
@Lucas Kell
"And as a side note, if goons were needed in high sec, they would form up, so if RvB did run into a situation they couldn't deal with alone, they wouldn't be alone, that's just unlikely to be required."
Don't you think Goons have a bigger agenda about RvB than just defending POCOs? Maybe like... blueing everyone in EVE into their pets? (Refer to CFC in nullsec)
" High ranking RvB officials have pointed out the reasons for this treaty"
[...]
"At the end of the day though, it's all just bad propaganda. It's not the first time we've seen it, hell, it's not the first time we've seen it on this blog"
So, RvB officials "point out the reasons", but this blog is supposedly "propaganda". That's quite a bit an one sided way to see it. :)
@Anon
"Yes, meaning they signed this treaty under pressure."
lol, if you say so. Honestly you need to look back at the history of the various treaties signed throughout the history of EVE. This is no different. You can't see the benefit because you are looking at it from the point of view that is MUST be the goons being evil. RvB really aren't that dumb though.
"Don't you think Goons have a bigger agenda about RvB than just defending POCOs? Maybe like... blueing everyone in EVE into their pets? (Refer to CFC in nullsec)"
Not at all. RvB are generally against the CFC when null sec comes into it. Just the other day they were out hunting for straggling CFC capitals. They merely saw a mutual benefit of the treaty, and so it was made. Not everything is a conspiracy.
@Other Anon
"So, RvB officials "point out the reasons", but this blog is supposedly "propaganda". That's quite a bit an one sided way to see it. :)"
RvB discussed this on the forum thread when people suggested this from the beginning. They explained why they chose to make the treaty, and the benefits it gave them. I honestly don't know what more you want to be said.
As far as I can see, nothing can possibly be said to convince you, since you've already made up your mind. And honestly I don't really care if you want to go on believing these ideas, it really doesn't affect me. But to me it seems like a bit of a waste of time for lemmings to be sitting around trying to convince groups of experienced eve players something that is clearly propaganda and bad conspiracy theories.
At the end of the day though, now the lemmings have been sitting around insulting RvB and making stuff like this up, it's unlikely they are going to drop the war assist, treaty or not. This is what happens when your leader is an uncharismatic oaf, rather than making strong allies he turns people against you. You would have been served better to engage in a dialog with RvB the moment they joined in without saying anything publicly, and discussed options and a potential compromise.
Hopefully the others come to their senses at some point and we can get rid of Mangala and his GOON cronies and we can go back to Red vs Blue.
Um... You know it's really easy to read to much into those numbers. Numbers do not tell the story behind them. I'm not sure your reasoning is anything more than speculation.
There is a huge difference in how RvB and CFC play the game in regards to where they are located.
Of course RvB will show up more for timers expiring in Hi. They're located in hi. CFC people usually are not. RvB people tend to enjoy smaller scale fights while CFC take their fights more 'seriously'.
It's comical how much backlash Gevlon receives now that he plays EVE.
Gevlon never received this amount of butt hurt when he was playing WOW.
Why?
Sandbox. I love it.
Before he was playing on a WOW server where his actions maybe affected a dozen to two dozen players.
Eve player base is a fraction of the WOW player base, however each individual EVE player has a much more significant impact. The EVE player base can impact the entire EVE player base, whereas the WOW player only affects his server.
Gevlon's actions haven't changed, it's just now his actions actually matter.
Who cared if he had an infinte wealth on WOWserver Z. WOWServer A through Y, where never affected.
Mission accomplished.
Good job Gevlon.
@Geegolly
That's weird since most of the time what people are pointing out is how very little his actions affect people. His "infinite" wealth doesn't even put him in the top 100 players, and he actively refuses to accept any form of a social aspect to the game, which is the one place where people can in fact make a difference. Of all of the objectives Gevlon has undertaken, I've yet to see any of them have any sort of lasting effect.
And while a lot of people will comment on his actions, it doesn't actually mean they matter in any way. I'm lucky enough to be in the position where I've been on or close to the receiving end of some of his actions, and I can say first hand that had I not been reading this blog and being told these things were happening, I'd not have even noticed they were going on.
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