You probably heard that Proviblock was threatened by CFC that if they don't cease strategic level hostilities (SBU-ing, taking systems), they will be considered an enemy of CFC and will be (attempted to) evicted from Providence.
This is kind of obvious. If someone is shooting me, I don't like him. However in EVE, shooting others is considered "fun" activity, gangs go out to get "good fights". This creates a weird anti-culture where considering a hostile action hostile is labeled "whining" or "tears". When a miner or hauler asks why was he destroyed, he receives trolling. The opinion leaders of EVE claim that "because I can" is enough reason to harm other players.
The common opinion in medieval ages was that various disasters and personal tragedies are caused by witchcraft, therefore the proper action was to burn witches. This doesn't stop the mentioned disasters, because opinions don't change facts. Just because most posting EVE players spout the "I kill because I can, let's have good fights and don't give a damn" nonsense, it remains nonsense. An empire built on nonsense won't last. CFC lived and grown because it wasn't built on nonsense. They kept spouting the nonsense to feed the morons, but the underlying truth was known and respected by the leaders.
The Mittani knew that there is no such thing as "fun hostility". The Proviblock shooting CFC (and allied) structures is harming them and they either must stop or forced to stop. While the CFC grunt might indeed had fun fighting with a Provi gang, CFC leadership only saw the reimbursement bill and fleet time lost. So they made it clear: if you want to be neutral, you need to be neutral. The claims of both N3 and Proviblock that their cooperation was random and opportunistic is irrelevant. In times of conflict even the appearance of cooperating with one side is enough to draw negative attention of the other.
The parallel with the Lemmings-RvB war is obvious. While RvB was babbling "fun fights", they are protecting CFC assets. This is the important fact, even if they really didn't mean it and really just want fun fights. Assuming N3 leadership isn't dumb, RvB got the same message from them what Proviblock got from CFC: "if you want to be neutral, you need to be neutral". N3 leadership can threaten RvB much easier than CFC can do it against Provi. If the CFC would indeed start to grind down Providence, they'd have to put in huge effort (every timer would likely be contested by N3) and would inevitably push the now homeless Provi pilots into N3 alliances. On the other hand N3 can take 500-1000 members from RvB overnight by a simple ping "RvB is now considered hostile, remove your alts NOW". Of course CFC can do the same, so RvB can't be pushed to be hostile to CFC either.
I'm sure that one way or another RvB will understand that "I kill because I can, let's have good fights and don't give a damn" doesn't fly if you aren't a friglolling grunt but an alliance leader. They will either quit the war soon (probably under some lame excuse like "we just wanted fun" or "we were just trolling") or they will be undone. RvB can only exist if they are truly neutral and doesn't get involved in anything but Red versus Blue engagements. They can accept players widely only because they have no agenda to lose, no plan to be sabotaged, no assets to steal, just two bunch of carefree pilots shooting each other.
PS: the Lemming project is totally failing and should be abandoned soon:
This is kind of obvious. If someone is shooting me, I don't like him. However in EVE, shooting others is considered "fun" activity, gangs go out to get "good fights". This creates a weird anti-culture where considering a hostile action hostile is labeled "whining" or "tears". When a miner or hauler asks why was he destroyed, he receives trolling. The opinion leaders of EVE claim that "because I can" is enough reason to harm other players.
The common opinion in medieval ages was that various disasters and personal tragedies are caused by witchcraft, therefore the proper action was to burn witches. This doesn't stop the mentioned disasters, because opinions don't change facts. Just because most posting EVE players spout the "I kill because I can, let's have good fights and don't give a damn" nonsense, it remains nonsense. An empire built on nonsense won't last. CFC lived and grown because it wasn't built on nonsense. They kept spouting the nonsense to feed the morons, but the underlying truth was known and respected by the leaders.
The Mittani knew that there is no such thing as "fun hostility". The Proviblock shooting CFC (and allied) structures is harming them and they either must stop or forced to stop. While the CFC grunt might indeed had fun fighting with a Provi gang, CFC leadership only saw the reimbursement bill and fleet time lost. So they made it clear: if you want to be neutral, you need to be neutral. The claims of both N3 and Proviblock that their cooperation was random and opportunistic is irrelevant. In times of conflict even the appearance of cooperating with one side is enough to draw negative attention of the other.
The parallel with the Lemmings-RvB war is obvious. While RvB was babbling "fun fights", they are protecting CFC assets. This is the important fact, even if they really didn't mean it and really just want fun fights. Assuming N3 leadership isn't dumb, RvB got the same message from them what Proviblock got from CFC: "if you want to be neutral, you need to be neutral". N3 leadership can threaten RvB much easier than CFC can do it against Provi. If the CFC would indeed start to grind down Providence, they'd have to put in huge effort (every timer would likely be contested by N3) and would inevitably push the now homeless Provi pilots into N3 alliances. On the other hand N3 can take 500-1000 members from RvB overnight by a simple ping "RvB is now considered hostile, remove your alts NOW". Of course CFC can do the same, so RvB can't be pushed to be hostile to CFC either.
I'm sure that one way or another RvB will understand that "I kill because I can, let's have good fights and don't give a damn" doesn't fly if you aren't a friglolling grunt but an alliance leader. They will either quit the war soon (probably under some lame excuse like "we just wanted fun" or "we were just trolling") or they will be undone. RvB can only exist if they are truly neutral and doesn't get involved in anything but Red versus Blue engagements. They can accept players widely only because they have no agenda to lose, no plan to be sabotaged, no assets to steal, just two bunch of carefree pilots shooting each other.
PS: the Lemming project is totally failing and should be abandoned soon:
15 comments:
While yes, CFC could grind down Provi if they really wanted to, but there are so many stations, and people packed into a small area, in Provi, that morale of CFC would drop so quickly, and aside from that whenever there's a fight to be had in Provi the entire universe shows up for it.
And corebloodbrothers gets bombed off the field, but that's not the point.
wow did you remove the mittani dot com from your blog roll?
you are taking this war seriously *grin*
pity. I use to only have your site bookmarked. from here I could visit all relevant propaganda mouthpieces. now I'm going to have to bookmark the goons separately.
@Gevlon
"The Mittani knew that there is no such thing as "fun hostility". The Proviblock shooting CFC (and allied) structures is harming them and they either must stop or forced to stop"
Well that's wrong. Of course there's fun hostility. Proviblock aren't being stopped from shooting CFC, they are simply being told that strategic level targets are off limits. So flying around shooting people for fun is fine, but shooting a structure and attempting to take CFC space will receive an appropriate response.
"N3 leadership can threaten RvB much easier than CFC can do it against Provi."
Wrong again. N3 would have to drop the ball on null sec politics to fight RvB, and RvB are not exactly bad at fighting. N3 might eventually pull a win, but they would not come off uninjured.
"On the other hand N3 can take 500-1000 members from RvB overnight by a simple ping "RvB is now considered hostile, remove your alts NOW"."
I doubt it. There's no guarantee that the players would leave RvB. They could very well just leave N3 instead. Ask yourself this. Why would N3 care enough about RvB assisting goons in high sec to risk their own membership count? It has absolutely no effect on them. They are not a delusional as you guys to think that a handful of carebears can actually do any damage.
"They will either quit the war soon or they will be undone"
I would LOVE to see N3 try to undo them, and to be honest, I think RvB would welcome the experience too. They'd certainly get some fights then. But it's not going to happen. N3 simply do not care about the high sec politics, and it would not benefit them in any way to start caring now.
"PS: the Lemming project is totally failing and should be abandoned soon"
Congratulations. You now have 158 characters doing essentially nothing. Numbers mean pretty much nothing with bad leadership (and for once, I don't mean you, that General Lemming really is pretty clueless)
The lemming project is failing?
Your project has more effect than just the openly announced lets bleed goons.
Market, industry hell even the lowly miner feels every distruction in EvE. The mental situation of EvE also changes. Boldness vs goons, less concern over losses and killmails (promotes indy market again) and more concern in fun/growth. Not only that your affecting the ego of goons and people in RvB. Why take an ECM to pvp? Cause its annoying.
You are highly intelligent. Everyone knows this. But a project needs more than just your ISK. Instead of abandoning the project. Use your intelligence and fix the issue. I believe player motivation and direction? Of all people you know how to fix it. Even though you are rough to the masses you know what they need.
Ah well it is your EvE. Just sad to see someone with your capability's fail due to lack of motivation/intrest or whatever the reason. Goons will rebuild their ego useing this surrender. You will be a marketeer looking for a project again.
(Ps Goons VS lemmings affect the very highsec vs lowsec profitability. You know better than me the full effects and capability's a project like this has. The biggest issue I think is these results mean nothing to you. Understandable as you still seek a project that stands by your high standards. I await the day you find a project to your likeing.)
@Sven Minnebo
"Instead of abandoning the project."
The project is not failing, it was some irony.
@Gevlon
That's the reason why you ideally never use irony in public communication, or at least you clarify it in the same sentence.
Also, nice to see this project start to lift off. Kudos to all Lemmings. Keep up the good work!
@Sven
It isn't failing, quite the opposite. Lemmings numbers have tripled since RvB declared war. Adjust your irony-meter, Sven.
Yes, RvB neutrality is important. Don't you think that the RvB leadership knows this? The reality is that the goons POCOs have little strategic value, and the RvBee agreement barely threatens RvB's neutrality.
It also bears to mention that the great majority of the RvBee POCOs are owned by RvB, not goons, again showing that they have limited strategic importance. This N3 intervention that you dream of won't happen...
LR
You're justifying the Lemmings project by membercount. I don't recall the goal being "get 100+ members". I think it was something about pocos. How about you actually measure the success against the objectives rather than redefining them to something less measurable.
Having members is a pre-requisite of doing things. POCOs won't shoot themselves. The rapidly increasing member count means that many people want to contribute to the highsec war against Goons and pets. Of course it doesn't guarantee victory. But it means it won't end due to lack of interest.
Irony meter is crap irl let alone through text. Happy now though!! Work on goblin.
Are you willing to commit to a date by which Lemmings will have taken a POCO? The lack of conditions for success is somewhat demoralising.
@Anonymous: this is the easy thing about being "roaming PvP" alliance. Since we can't lose structures, we can only lose if we run out of members. Which is the very opposite of what's happening.
So we must take down the POCOs before we run out of members or I run out of money.
Thanks for replying directly
So if I'm understanding your reply correctly the victory conditions for Lemmings are that Lemmings are in a constant state of victory until you run out of money or alliance members without ever actually needing to do anything to goons? As long as the project still has members and isk it has the potential to one day take POCOs and therefore is winning?
Yep. 90% of EVE is doing exactly that. Why should I be better than them?
Of course we have to do something with Goons or the members run off.
"If you are not with us - you are against us."
RvB started their cascade when they decided to tace POCOs, even more while holding hands with Goons.
Joining a forever war technically killed the RvB idea since all the "fair and fun fight" directives cannot be held up in empire anymore, so "purple" is all there should be atm. Unless people want to continue losing 2b Genolution clones.
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