Greedy Goblin

Monday, October 7, 2013

If you don't tank in highsec, you are wrong!

I often get the comment that tanking your mining (hauling, missioning) ship isn’t the only option. They claim there are two other options:
  • good piloting: aligning out, watching Dscan and local, marking known gankers and so on
  • replacement: simply earn enough income to be able to write down gank losses as operational costs
They are wrong. Not because their options couldn’t result higher income/hour than tanking. They are wrong because tanking is the only option that benefits from the existence of Concord. Concord responds to aggression and destroys the attackers. You need to be tanked enough to live until this happens. If you choose not to be tanked, you forfeit the assistance of Concord.

However if you do so, why are you in highsec? The ore, the mission rewards, the drops and the bounties are the worst in highsec. You can get more of all of these in lowsec, nullsec or WH space. How do you protect yourself from being destroyed in these Concord-less zones? By good piloting or replacement!

If you believe in good piloting or accepting and replacing your losses, you are wrong to be in highsec! Leave it and get much better results without doing anything differently! The only valid reason to be in highsec is enjoying Concord protection! However to do so, you must be tanked.

So anyone who did not tank his ship in highsec is wrong. Tomorrow we explore this from another angle.

Speaking of Concord, a moron of the weekend contender met them. He was baiting aggression by being suspect on the ice belt. Which was a mess itself with various parties ganking. Probably he also lost counting who he can shoot and who he can't. This is why you shouldn't set your safety red, unless you explicitly go for suicide ganking. Who got the ice then? The Skiffs and Procurers of course:

The weekend was nice and provided several morons, it was hard to pick. The above GCC 1.5B Tengu was a strong contender, but what Inquisitor Reyalstob found is unbeatable: a covops frig. Decloaked. AFK. On the Sun. With this pod.

The anti-tear of today:


Anonymous said...

Firstly, directly comparing mining in HiSec with mining in other areas is not accurate as there are other factors that need to be considered, including the ease and logistics of converting ore to ISK in nullsec/lowsec.

The other factor at play for "yield tanking" is the probability of being killed. In HiSec, even with the various gankers flying around, the chance of actually being shot whilst mining either at the keyboard or AFK is still pretty low.

In most parts of lowsec or easily accessible nullsec, your probability of being shot and killed is much higher, and thus your expected losses are much higher.

Tithian said...


Unless you fly withour a corp in null-sec, or you're going to NPC-null to 'farm', you are wrong on both counts.

In almost all cases the logistics is being handled by the corp/alliance and you only have to wait 3-4 days to have your stuff shipped out. And you'll be getting prices that are really close to those of the major trade hubs.

Also, most ore farming takes place in safe systems whith blues in the entire constellations, so the probability of you dieing is almost nil.

Lucas Kell said...

So still happy to state what is wrong, just because you disagree with it?

At the end of the day, its peoples choice if they want to mine in high sec or not. Theres no right or wrong about it. Like Anon said above, logistically, it's much easier in high sec, and the amount of times you see hostiles is vastly different. I almost never see a hostile in high sec when mining. In null I'd have a hard time running 7 miners without isboxer and guaranteeing my safety, especially semi afk.

So when I'm updating orders or on a structure grind or playing another game, I'll high sec mine. There's simply no point in tanking, since concord will not save my ship either way. Why waste isk on modules that will simply buff your kill value, when you could just leave them off. A couple of passive meta0 T1s is the most I bother with, because of how cheap they are.

So branching out to non-miners ganks now are we? Still trying to hold up the lie that this is not all about KB padding?

Zosius said...

That's what she said... Mining in in low/null that is not protected won't give better yield even if you are actively at the keyboard. In higher class WH it might be more difficult to be ganked if done properly, but then when you do, you probably will be podded as well. Time wasted to coming back in a new ship/finding connection is rarely worth it.

Anonymous said...

Your analysis assumes an equal chance of being ganked in both high and low. This is an assumption not backed up by my experience playing the game, nor one demonstrated in your argument.
If your pure yield fit creates 10% more yield in highsec but half of that extra income is consumed by replacement hulls that is still beneficial over tanking.
However a 20% increase of yield by flying the same ship in lowsec may not be profitable as the rate of ganking might be considerably higher, such that all that 20% and more is consumed by replacement hulls.

You touched on a truth, that if you are going to do something you ought to optimise it to its logical final point and maximise the benefit to yourself. However you falsely characterised lowsec as offering increased returns because of the increased yield with equal (read no) protection from ganking. While neither offers protection they do have very different demographics inhabiting them, the risk is not equal even though the defences might be comparably weak.

Anonymous said...

Depends on the cost of your ship really.

I fly a relatively cheep level 4 mission running ship, (nothing more pricey than green) as to not attract gankers, because even a cheep fit level 4 mission runner is about a bil and therefore not easy to replace and more importantly something that will take time to pay for it self.

However going super cheep would seriously effect my ability to run mission in the first place, so there only so cheep you can go, you got to invest some real isk to get a decent performance.

My mining barge on the other hand is typically a yield fit retriever with no tank or rigs. It cheep as chips and can easily be left mining afk, or semi afk.

More so ganking of miners seems to happen in areas and if one gank happens, it will typically be followed by others in the same area, through you can never tell if your going to be gank victim number one, which is why I won't use something like a hulk, it take too long to even pay for itself in improved performance, more so a Hulk a big fat juicy target and attractive killmail, while a retriever isn't.

Now if a ganker taken a interest in you or your mining ice, well that when you pull out the Procurer, but a cheep yield fit Retriever will likely make more profit over the long term in normal circumstances then tank fit or pricey tech 2 imho. There just so cheep and good at turning a fairly rapid profit.

Slinde said...

What strikes me here, is that there is a market for hiring people to provide logistic support.

Shield-boosting with drones and armor-repairing the miners should, even if you're relatively new to logistics, provide enough time for concord to do their business with the aggressors.

Wonder how much they'll pay for that.. :]

Lucas Kell said...

"Shield-boosting with drones and armor-repairing the miners should, even if you're relatively new to logistics, provide enough time for concord to do their business with the aggressors"
Even with a maxed out logi, you'd struggle to keep a miner up during a normal gank. At most, you'd add the need for one extra catalyst for a gank. The best way to stop a gank is to ECM the ganking ships. A well fit blackbird can usually knock out 2 catalysts with ease. Using an alt (you have to keep the alt, deleting it is against the EULA) to pull concord onto the belt whenever it's pulled away also helps, as concord being present will fully nullify a catalyst.
Neither active nor passive tanking helps against gankers, which is why IMHO mining barges need more raw shield and more mid slots. They should stand a chance of being fit to resist ganks, rather than as they currently stand where they are impossible to tank unless you use a proc or a skiff.

Von Keigai said...

If you choose not to be tanked, you forfeit the assistance of Concord.

You intentionally misstate how Concord works. Every non-criminal ship in highsec gets Concord's protection. Concord is perfect protection for no ship, tanked or untanked. Concord can be perfect protection against rational gankers.

Out in lowsec, a single puny frigate can warp scramble and kill your Skiff. Perhaps it will take him five minutes of plinking at 200 DPS after he kills your drones. But he has the time for that. He probably also has friends, so even if his 100 DPS cannot break your tank, he just needs to hold you in place while his friend who can break it warps in.

Practically speaking, the presence of Concord changes the PVP game entirely. Outside of highsec, anyone who finds a solo miner and manages to jump him feels great. Not only is he teaching a valuable lesson to the miner, he just succeeded in a hunt against a human foe. By contrast, ganking miners in highsec is shooting fish in a barrel. Nobody is going to feel good about it, after their first few ganks, without inventing for himself a meta-gank rationale for why it is a good idea. James has the Code. Goons have lols and market manipulation. You have your will to power.

Anonymous said...

They pay nothing, they AFK, they never know you helping them. But sometime they briefly awake from their millenuim long slumber, look at your wrek and wonder - "maybe there is something out there"?