Greedy Goblin

Thursday, September 5, 2013

Business Thursday: high ISK/LP highsec corporations

Loyalty points provides large portion of mission rewards. If you blitz the mission (complete it as fast as possible, skipping optional NPCs and looting), most of your rewards are LP. You can buy items in the LP store and then sell them for ISK. The ISK/LP conversion ratio gives how good the LP item is. Not all items are available in all stores, you should pick your corporation wisely. Pirate corporations that only have agents in nullsec can go up to 4000 ISK/LP, but we are talking about highsec missioning now. A random corporation provides rewards around 7-800 ISK/LP. With industrial implants, you can go up to 1000-1000 in random corporations.

Update: I made a nasty mistake and did not notice that the FW agents - while present in highsec - give out FW missions in lowsec. Still there are three corporations left in highsec that give much better results than normal highsec corporations:

Corporation Faction Items ISK/LP
Sisters of EVE Sisters of EVE Probes and probe launchers 2000
Thukker mix Thukker tribe Nomad implants 2000
Trust partners Thukker tribe Nomad implants 2000

There is one more LP store item group: blueprint copies. They are harder to assess since you have to get the BPC and the materials to manufacture the item and sell that. While some has good profit, it is not coming from missioning but manufacturing and the time calculating all the possible profits may not worth it. Continue at your own risk.


The daily anti-tears are starting with a happy picture: I did not even gank here on this day and still just one inappropriate ship:

Yes, I know, it's just accident and has nothing to do with my efforts. Like this ship was probably just randomly named:

People like Slavus start to get that proper fitting is important. Well, some. Others are still being informed, like Yoko Darkblu:

36 comments:

Anonymous said...

So you taught at least one miner how to tank a ship. How many new miners have come to be in the that time? Don't you think it's better to remove your unnecessary restrictions from the Corp to actually get some people in and increase efficiency?

Gevlon said...

Which restrictions?

The 5B one that bans useless loitering?

Or the one that bans turning corp chat into something that I can't suffer reading?

Or the one that tells to actually gank instead of roaming in null and whoring on blob mails?

Anonymous said...

Yes, exactly those restrictions. The total lack of interest in your project is a clear indication that you're doing something wrong.

Gevlon said...

And without those restrictions, what's left? A bunch of punk doing nothing and sharing porn links?

Also, what is this "total lack of interest" nonsense? Those who want to participate don't have their ganky catalyst pilots ready so they can't join?

Michael LeBlanc said...

FW agents are only available to you if you enlist in FW, and always send you to lo sec, specifically to FW systems in enemy regions. So yeah, there are a couple of hi sec agents in each faction, but you can't do any of their missions if you don't want to go to lo sec. Also their missions all make beacons so you don't even need to be scanned down.

As far as your corp goes, as I commented in another thread, it's been 10 days. I think it's safe to say you haven't reached any established gankers. It's also likely you haven't reached anyone who's willing to get started ganking in a T1 cata. Do you have any actual evidence that there are any people training a new char into a T2 cata to join you?

Anonymous said...

Without these restrictions you have a typical corp. As for lack of interest - there are loads of gankers already and no one wants to join you. But you can always say you aim at new gankers. You can also say it's not about kB.

Gevlon said...

@Michael: I double-check these corps when I get to a client.

About "not reached established gankers": name any please! I've checked some and their solo ganking performance isn't high. Here is the head of Miniluv: http://zkillboard.com/character/751832309/solo/

On the New Order Logistics toplist http://zkillboard.com/corporation/98155447/top/ I'm #2 despite left it more than half year ago.

The #1 guy has no kills for two months, the #3 left for nullsec.

The guy who has the most kills on the last page http://zkillboard.com/character/92655600/history/ barely has 5B/month group kills.

No matter how big the noise around highsec ganking, the truth is that there are practically no "established ganker" in EVE.

Anonymous said...

"There is one more LP store item group: blueprint copies."

https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/lpstore/

has a decent list of isk/lp items for most corps.

Handle with care as 20k isk/lp doesn't mean you can unload the items in volume.

Anonymous said...

"no established gankers in eve"?

You are in hek...

http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_external_id=688798363

He is less busy this last month or so, but, he spends much of his time seeking out those who AFK their pods or ships in highsec.

But, continue :)

also, not only do they need their catalyst pilots ready, they need their month of solo ganks ready to meet your "requirements", and we still are not sure what you offer anyone already capable that they do not get solo.

The prestige of being associated with you in their employment history is perhaps not enough of a pull.

Michael LeBlanc said...

My point was your excuse for having no members in your corp is that new accounts haven't had time yet, but that doesn't explain why established accounts that can already fly a T2 cata haven't joined. I'll grant that I should have said established accounts and not established gankers in the first place.

You posted months and months ago about how to get loads of solo kills by ganking miners. Your argument that 'there are no established gankers' thus doesn't bode well for the future growth of your corp.

Don't get me wrong, I hope you are successful, but you also love metrics, and the metric that is 'members contributing to your corp' is not painting a pretty picture.

Kree Atreides said...

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=274628&find=unread

Quote: "I just started this game and am training as a miner. I have bought a Procurer (the others were too expensive)"

Funny enough he/she asked for defense but didn't choose the Procurer because of its defense.

That's what I said some days ago - seeing Procurers on dscan don't don't proof you to be the reason for flying them.

"Yes, I know, it's just accident and has nothing to do with my efforts. Like this ship was probably just randomly named:"
You do even have an impact on fantasy books, you wouldn't believe the authors gave a whole species the name "Goblin", maybe to thank you for your teaching efforts in eve-online?
I'm pretty sure Joanne K. Rowlings made Goblins the keeper of "Gringotts" just because she knew how you have played eve in the past!!! That's awesome!!!

Even the eve-online.com forum does know Botslayer Goblin as a pilot of New Order... you do gank for New Order, don't you?
Hundrets of billions ISK destroyed within the last two weeks and not a single post can be found about it...

I totally see how you change the history of eve and became a part of it... not.

What's next? Flying Gevlon Goblin in a Procurer named "I was teached by the greedy goblin" into a belt and take a dscan screenshot of it?

Gevlon said...

@Kree Atreides: care to elaborate the connection of forum fame and history?

@Michael LeBlanc: using a 50M SP pilot as ganker would be dumb. A ganker should be specially trained, low SP and unrelated to your main due to kill rights, security status and simply the availability of playing the game differently than a ganker. Turning a -10 ganker locks your pilot more than turning to a titan pilot.

@Anonymous: Solistice Project hasn't ganked anything for half a year!

Lucas Kell said...

"And without those restrictions, what's left? A bunch of punk doing nothing and sharing porn links?"
Good lord, what corp did you join. You know this isn't what happens in most corps right?

"No matter how big the noise around highsec ganking, the truth is that there are practically no "established ganker" in EVE."
Wrong wrong wrong. There are FEW established SOLO gankers in EVE, notice the FEW (not none) and the SOLO. The SOLO is important. There's nearly no profit in solo ganking. Most of the time you will lose isk as not enough drops to cover your T2 loss. It's usually only if you hit a mackinaw with a bounty that you manage to turn a profit. Of course the miniluv leader will have low solo kills. Firstly they don't kill solo. Secondly he usually coordinates the kill, so he's not always involved in the killing. Miniluv kill freighters and other high value targets for profit. So comparing your solo kills to their solo kills, you'll always have more, that's obvious.

The reason nobody is joining you or even talking to you about joining is because you offer them nothing they don't already have. Solo gankers can already kill solo, can already be self sufficient and know all the tricks you can teach them and more. Joining your corp is nothing but an addition to their employment history and the requirement to dump your propaganda on them. Worst of all, most solo gankers enjoy ganking, so why will they want to tell their target how to avoid being ganked?

"Turning a -10 ganker locks your pilot more than turning to a titan pilot."
Not anymore. With the new criminal tags, getting them less than -5 is easy, quick and cheap.

"care to elaborate the connection of forum fame and history?"
I think what he's saying is nobody is talking about how they've been ganked by you. Generally if you are having an impact GD will get filled with teary eyed posts asking for changes to stop them getting killed or for advice on how to avoid it. He's also saying there are many reasons to get a procurer, and you can;t assume that everyone flying a procurer is because of you.
Honestly though, you probably are having a small impact, but only in the systems you frequent. Anyone in there will obviously be tanked, as anyone that fits for yield would move to a quieter more profitable system to afk mine. The moment you move on, yield pilots will start coming back, and in a couple of weeks it would look like noone was ever ganked there.

Gevlon said...

@Lucas: would you design a "proper" ganking corp? Tell me, what should I do to be successful!

Most of my ganks are profitable, though not very much. Retrievers can be killed by 4M meta-fit Catalysts, 1.5M comes back from the loot, a T1 mining beam gives back the other 1.5M, the rest of the fittings and the ore is just bonus. While it's not even missioning income, it can keep someone in ships.

They go to the forum because they feel helpless and wronged. They want advice or CCP help. Since I message them and tell them what to do, they are already advised. They also see that they aren't powerless to stop the ganks, so they have no reason to cry.

Alkarasu said...

@Michael LeBlanc
"Do you have any actual evidence that there are any people training a new char into a T2 cata to join you?"

What, we need to scream about the progress of our training queues now, or you won't beleive we exist?

Lucas Kell said...

@Gevlon
"would you design a "proper" ganking corp? Tell me, what should I do to be successful! "
Well firstly, I wouldn't design a ganking corp, because most ganking is a waste of time. I certainly wouldn't build one based around solo not-for-profit ganking.
If I were to have an aneurism and decide to though, I'd probably do this:
1. Not put stupid restriction on corp chat. I'd just tell people to pack it in if they got out of hand. Text speak, jokes, people having a laugh, it doesn't matter enough to be a rule and less rules look better.
2. I'd not put a 3b limit on solo ganking to get in. I'd ask they demonstrate their solo ganking on their killboards, and inform them they need to get a solid contribution in corp, but hard limits can put people off. You also want to get people in, not put people off bothering and limits put people off.
3. I'd encourage people to work together, rather than separately. Coordinated ganks on a single miner, or on 2 miner in the same belt would be pretty effective. If you can warp in 5 people into a belt and take down 5 retrievers at the same time, it's a pretty good spectacle that will be talked about a bit more than "just another gank".
4. I'd provide ship packs at a reasonable price delivered to certain stations. It's much easier to bulk buy everything cheap, then have one person ship it.
5. I'd provide orca services to fleet ganks (see #3, encourage them to work as a team by making it easier to do so).
6. I'd not restrict them to only high sec. I'd run a killboard which pulls kills and filters invalid kills out (by ship type, system, etc). This I'd use as a league table. I'd set points per kill based on different criteria (not isk value) and divide the points down where kills are shared. Quarterly I'd run a rewards system to encourage people to compete with each other for points. I'd use the in game medals system to award medals for the winners of that quarter, then I'd reset for the following quarter. Essentially make a game of ganking.

Essentially you have to remember that
1. Most solo gankers are doing it, at least in part, for funs. Taking away the all of the fun is silly.
2. Rules that stop people joining are not good. Rules should be relaxed enough to let people in, but strict enough to exclude time wasters.
3. You need to offer things other ganking corps don't. The biggest questions to ask is "WHY should they join you?", and "WHAT is in it for them?"

"They go to the forum because they feel helpless and wronged. They want advice or CCP help. Since I message them and tell them what to do, they are already advised. They also see that they aren't powerless to stop the ganks, so they have no reason to cry."
Even if they visit your blog page, they'll still feel like they've been done in. If it hit them that hard, you'd still expect at least a few to come running to the forums. There are literally no posts about it. The MinerBumping guys point to their blog, and still there's new posts about them almost every week from someone crying about it.

"Most of my ganks are profitable, though not very much. Retrievers can be killed by 4M meta-fit Catalysts, 1.5M comes back from the loot, a T1 mining beam gives back the other 1.5M, the rest of the fittings and the ore is just bonus. While it's not even missioning income, it can keep someone in ships."
But then you hit a failed gank, or a miner steals the loot before you can, and you're running in the red.
A line that thin is easy to cross. Solo ganking is not considered to be a profitable venture.

Kree Atreides said...

@Kree Atreides: care to elaborate the connection of forum fame and history?

Here you go:
Have you ever heard about Hubert Deloite? No, he does not play eve, he died during WW2.
Before WW2 he did something (invention) that changed the world and therefore he should be part of the history.
He isn't, because noone remembers his name and someone else got all the fame, including the glory of beeing part in history.

Yesterday you explained why and how you want to become part of eve history.
But that won't work without beeing "famous" or at least a guy many people talk about.
Maybe some day there will be a sidenote, mentioning that Botslayer Gevlon carried on to spread the message of the New Order even after he left New Order...

Whenever I see people talking about "the Goblin" they talk about markets, prices, ISK. Some talk about a guy who awoxed TEST by motivating members to donate huge amounts of ISK to the alliance only to see the ISK moving to the wallet of some players who take it out of the alliance before they left TEST.
As I mentioned earlier you will find me in several help channels where new players ask why CONCORD didn't protect them in highsec... but still I havn't seen anyone who was one of your victims.

Right now you are throwing pebbles into the atlantic ocean, shouting: "Some day you will be able to walk from europe to america without getting wet because of the bridge I am building with those pebbles!"

It won't happen.

Fame is something like a multiplicator needed to spread a message.
Mahathma Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King... just imagine they wouldn't have been famous - they wouldn't have been able to change history.
Forums/Blogs are what newspapers has been back in those days.

You said: You don't need friends to reach your goals.
Go one beeing the next Hubert Deloite.
See why fame and "friends" are needed to leave a mark in history.

Gevlon said...

@Kree Atreides: if the invention of Hubert Deloite is in use, he did change the history, despite no one knows his name. Do you know the name of the guy who invented the stuff you use?

No one knows the name of the guy who first used fire, despite he changed mankind from animals to people.

@Lucas:
1: what is joke for one is "fun speak" for one is annoying crap to everyone else. I spent the start of every fleet in TEST by blocking morons who couldn't shut up. They significantly damaged my fun with their idiotism.

2: Without numerical limit, what is "solid contribution"? How can I keep up the idiots who just want to be in ANY corp?

3: the main problem with coordinating ganks is what you wrote above: most miners just pack and go a constellation. I can deplete the ganking opportunities of a constellation in a day or two all by myself. A 5-men team would have to pack and move every hour, spending more time travelling than ganking.

4: same problem, movement. I tried just that with New Order and by the time everything was set up, the gankers had to move away. The "use your own Orca" idea came from this: you must have your ganking gear with you and ready to move at will.

5: who would provide the services? Would you join as an Orca pilot, doing nothing but carrying the stuff of gankers around for free? (if you are ready to pay, Red Frog is already at your service)

6: this is the only part when relaxing can happen, but I don't see it as a big turnoff as the ganky catalyst alt can barely fly anything but ganky catalyst, not a good ship to roam nullsec. It's a 2 months training alt, everyone can have a real combat pilot to do the nullsec stuff.

Kata Komba said...

"The reason nobody is joining you or even talking to you about joining is because you offer them nothing they don't already have."

I am training my alt to join the corp. A few days more until I can start ganking, and about a week or two to reach the limit to join. So far I didn't feel like I have to talk about it under every single post of Gevlon, but you guys so desperately bashing this project, that I had to prove that there will be newly trained pilots to join soon.

Also I am very curious about you Lucas: why do you take this project so personal? You try to undermine it so hard.

Lucas Kell said...

@Gevlon
1. Most people find social interaction fun. Sure some people cross the line and they should and do get put in their place. But you seem to hate ALL social interaction. In that case, making a corp is a retarded idea. Corps are a social collection. If you want to avoid social interaction, close recruitment to just your alts. You realise you don't HAVE to read what other people are talking about right? But other members in corps will want to talk to each other and have fun.

2. You can set limits once people have joined, but setting a limit before they've joined means they have to do solo what you want them to do in the group. As you see from the other things I've written, teamwork is key. If you are doing everything solo, there's no point in being in a corp.

3. But coordinated ganks have more of an impact. That's what you are going for right? You want people to notice you and make a change? You won;t do that pecking at 1 miner at a time. The others will simply move before you get a chance to gank them once they see one go down. Hitting them all at the same time means noone escapes and they see a massive group kill, leaving a lasting memory of it.

4. Moving a freighter of catalysts around is not a big deal. If you are going to regions together, you have a couple of regional staging points and you just need to move stuff around here. They are cheap, so having stashes all over is not a problem.

5. Well to start with you would. You want to start this but you don't want to put any effort into it. You want other people to just come along and start ganking for your cause, but you aren't going to help them do it or provide any support in doing it. So WHY would they join. This is the same question over and over which you don't seem to get. If all they are doing is the same thing they used to do, but delivering YOUR message, they have nothing to gain by doing it, while you get some slaves. So why would they join? Once you have a group who all work together well, other people would bring an orca alt on board to help out, and you could start giving out specific roles for people to do these things. You'd be surprised how quickly people jump at the chance for a specific role towards a cause they believe in.

6. But why restrict yourself to only people with alts? Some people want to run their mains as a ganker and a pirate, dodging concord, hiding in wormholes and lowsec. You are excluding those people. Again, think, why would they build an alt to join your cause if they gain nothing except you deciding their every move for them.
Also, the better gankers don't only fly catalysts, and they skill more than the basics in ganking.

This is all just how I'd do it though. You can do it whatever way you want, but you won;t get some massive following while you restrict everyone to being a clone of you and offer no rewards.

Anonymous said...

I don't get the fuss.
tank, yield, scan, cloak, dmg. what ever. there is one healthy rule to make your own "Fly what you can afford". The rest is nerd rage/talk. If you undock and don't consider your fit till pod lost you might want to play something else like darksouls.

until CCP dumbs down like wow it really doesn't matter if you like the gameplay of mining as glass-high-yield or tank-slow-yield.

I don't get what there is to teach. or where who wins.
if you start playing with max paranoia and tune it slowly down after you learn about some of the mechanics you win. sure we all lose ships to stupid failures or answering doors.

well. anyway. nice blog and enjoyable reads goblin!
But I don't get the heated comments at all. nor do I understand your vendetta. but good luck and fun with that WGBWC project.

Kata Komba said...

Lucas, I understand you don't find anything positive in this corp, because you see everything it provides as a restriction. For a few of us, who would like to join when our alts are ready, theese are not restrictions, but the benefits.

I have a strange feeling that you fear of this could have an effect on your gameplay. Maybe in the future one ganker will find your untanked farmer alts. Or maybe your "fearsome griefing" (actually only easykill farmer) ganking squad won't find easy targets and you will lose the fun. Is that the case? Or maybe secretly you actually want to join, but you can't admit it to yourself (yet). If neither, why don't you just ignore Gevlon and this project, as you stated the whole CFC does?

Lucas Kell said...

@Kata Komba
"Also I am very curious about you Lucas: why do you take this project so personal? You try to undermine it so hard."
It's not that I take it personally, but Gevlon feels free to say that anyone playing under existing corps or alliances is a moron, and can't do their own thing, while he's trying to start a corp with restrictions that make everyone in it a puppet. It's hypocritical.
What do you gain from being in his corp? You gank solo, which you can do anyway. You aren't allowed to socialise in corp chat. He offers no logistics support. Do you have your scout and Orca pilot ready? Once you need them, you'll find it hard to hit your quota, and you can't ask for help.
You get nothing from him, yet you have to direct people to his blog every time you kill them. It sound to me like he wants people to generate hits for his blog and buff his KB while he does nothing to support you. If that's really what you want to do go right ahead, I'll keep my ganker with a group that provides voice comms, logistic support, free fitted ganking ships on location and a friendly environment, while asking for nothing in return (if i don't want to gank for a while, I don't have to).

Lucas Kell said...

" For a few of us, who would like to join when our alts are ready, theese are not restrictions, but the benefits."
Explain how you are benefited. You understand the meaning of the word, correct?

"I have a strange feeling that you fear of this could have an effect on your gameplay. Maybe in the future one ganker will find your untanked farmer alts."
My alts go out mining when I'm on ops or sorting out my trading. What they earn is less that 1% of my total earning (considerably less). They just save me having to ship volumes of trit between regions for manufacture. Considering the corp is yet gain a single non-gevlon member, and there's a couple of thousands systems in high sec, the chances of us even meeting are incredibly slim.

"If neither, why don't you just ignore Gevlon and this project, as you stated the whole CFC does?"
I started reading Gevlons blog just because of the sheer volume of nonsense it pumps out. I dislike people that consider themselves to be far superior to the rest of the community from nothing but their own words. Normally I'd just stay out of it, but since Gevlon took it on himself to continuously insult players like me, considering anyone that plays as part of an alliance a moron, while he sits on his pedestal as a "rational", I chose not to let it lie. I'll continue disputing all of the nonsense parts of his articles until he blocks me, he starts writing less rubbish or I get bored.

Since I post while I don't have access to EVE chances are I won't get bored soon,so it's left to either of the other two. Since searching back to comments about Gevlon go back years and all say "what is this autistic mooch talking about", chances are it won't be the second one either, so my money is on him blocking me, at which point I can claim victory anyway, as since he's a "rational" by his own standard nothing I say matters.

maxim said...

I actually like the idea that group kills generate higher impacts.

If you want people to feel that there is a consistent threat of piracy so they need to tank their ships, you want more impact.

I understand that there are some logistical challenges involved in that, but that's what being in a corp is all about - solving logistical challenges that allow for groups being more efficient than collections of individuals.

Jason said...

How do you mitigate the damage to your standings from doing the thukker/SOE missions? Do you just skip the ones where you lose the standing? Do you have a mission runner that doesn't have caldari/gallente standing and doesn't need it?

Gevlon said...

@Jason: you can skip the missions that would hit standings, but if you are a focused mission runner, why do you care if the Amars hate you?

@Lucas: the benefit is measured from the baseline. In the island full of cannibals, having a hiding place is a benefit, even if it's a smelly cave. In an MMO, where the average corp chat is horrible, having these policed is a benefit.

anonymous said...

Do you using http://www.lpstock.ru/ or just calculating everything manually?

Lucas Kell said...

"the benefit is measured from the baseline. In the island full of cannibals, having a hiding place is a benefit, even if it's a smelly cave. In an MMO, where the average corp chat is horrible, having these policed is a benefit."
What?
That's not a benefit. You shielding them from potential bad corp chat that they wouldn't have if they didn't join your corp.

That's like saying "come stand in front of this gun. It shouldn't go off, but if it does I'll sort it out."
In that case I simply wouldn't stand in front of the gun. Much like I wouldn't join your corp.

I'm in a corp right now, with perfectly reasonable corp chat going on. It seems that particular benefit is not required.

What actual tangible benefits does being in your corp offer? I can tell you already it's none. I would like to understand what Kata Komba thinks they will be gaining though.

Kata Komba said...

Dear Lucas,

Yes, I understand the meaning of the word "benefit". Having a corp with a clear goal, which I can identify myself with is clearly one of them. Doing it without the unnecessary socialization is another one. I don't need Orca support, my pilot will be ready soon, ISK is not a problem for anybody with at least half an hour/day gametime and a brain. The guides are not unique, there is one already in minerbumping, although they are more polished here.

Gevlon fails a lot, and makes even more people angry at him, just because he is trying new methods, theories, and he is posting them from the beginning. He doesn't want to be Edison, more like Tesla. I think I don't have to explain this, you are clever and know the difference.

By the way I think he won't block you, as your comments are just a different opinion, but you don't do anything which can't be acepted by his rules, no lolspeak, no offtopic spam, no stupidity.

Also you can't stop joining those people whom Gevlon would like to see in his corp. Specially because one of your main reason not to join WGBWC is the lack of "fun". So now only one one thing left that keeps you here: your entertainement.

Lyxi said...

@Lucas

Gevlon ran his own guilds in WoW, where the no-stupid-chat rule was in place.

The result was that were a lot of people joining to get away from the constant barrage of idiocy spewed in other guilds.

I don't even get why this rule is so contentious amongst people that don't even want to join in the first place. I mean, do you just whine about it because you have nothing better to do all day?

Alkarasu said...

@Lucas Kell
"That's not a benefit."
But it is! Not for you, most likely, but it is an enourmous one for those, who want it.
No matter how good your corporation, guild, or whatever other form of MMO social organisation, there will come the time it will adopt blabbering moron in it's ranks. It may indeed take a while, but it inevitable. That moron, most likely, won't be of the really bad and irritating kind, but he will blabber some silly nonsence. He won't be punished (he don't really ruins anyone "fun" and can even cause a laugh from time to time, no rules of "normal" groups by your own definition prohibit that), so he won't be removed and in time everyone in the group will get used to him.
And then the second one will come. Just a tiny bit worse, than the first. Then - the third and so on. Once this process is started, it's impossible to stop short of disbanding and reforming with very strict filters. If you will start to kick them - no one in your own corp will understand you (you kicking some "funny guys" that don't really hurt anyone for some obscure reason, and they tend have at least some friends among the crowd, they can be your own friends from real life, in which case you won't even notice something is wrong with them), if you won't, they will turn your corpchat into stinking garbage pit you don't want to be a part of. I've seen that process in action multiple times in very different groups, so I'm absolutely certain, that the only way to avoid it in the long run is to put some rules in place from the very beginning, that will keep those morons out, and then ensure those rules working despite anything.
Now, Gevlon's rules may feel way too strict, but I've seen those rules really working, and I've seen him ready to maintain them no matter what (well, mostly). It's a rare combination, and for those, who understands it's benefits (while accepting the goal of the group as one worthy of attention), it's really priceless.

"I can tell you already it's none."
For you - yes. But I don't recall you ever wanting to join.

Lucas Kell said...

@Alkarasu
"But it is! Not for you, most likely, but it is an enourmous one for those, who want it. "
No, It's not a benefit. Think about it. While you are in an NPC corp your corp chat is really just like a local channel, you can turn it's blink off and close it.
Joining Gevlons corps is no different. You only HAVE a corp chat because you are in the corp. So If you didn't join, you wouldn't need "protection" from all that socialising.

"If you will start to kick them - no one in your own corp will understand you"
If you are kicking them and your whole corp is "not understanding" then it's a problem that only YOU have. If everyone was saying "god, look at that moron" then everyone would be on board with kicking. Not to mention that most people will simply accept being told to shut up. Honestly, I've been playing this game for nearly 7 years, and I'm yet to encounter a corp chat so bad it causes me any issues at all. I think Gevlon either has a really REALLY low tolerance level for social interaction, or he managed to join a corp filled with the worst people in history.

@Lyxi:
WoW is a little different, as a lot of people playing are kids. Mainstream corps in EVE tend to exclude kids.

"I don't even get why this rule is so contentious amongst people that don't even want to join in the first place"
It's not, it's that it's advertised as a benefit, yet it's clearly not benefiting anyone. It's like he thinks that you have to stare to no end at corp chat, so any time there's some douche talking rubbish, it is forced into your brain. How does Gevlon survive with NPC corps I wonder. Probably by closing chat.

@Kata Komba
"Having a corp with a clear goal, which I can identify myself with is clearly one of them."
Fair enough, If you are happy with the goal and feel that joining a corp as a clone of Gevlon is the best way of accomplishing that, rather than simply doing it alone, that's your choice. I still don't understand the benefit of joining the corp however. You could solo gank untanked miners from an NPC corp and spread whatever message you want to.

"Gevlon fails a lot, and makes even more people angry at him, just because he is trying new methods, theories, and he is posting them from the beginning"
I think I'm yet to see anything "new" from Gevlon. I mean this is simply a reaction to miniluv, modeled on New Order. Read the old new order page from Gevlon's blog, and his new WGBWC pages is practically a copy of it. Even today he's posted clarification that his goal with the corp is KB superiority. This post is about LP rewards, which there's sites that generate ISK/LP figures for you and have done for years, nothing new. He's new to the game himself, so it may just be he's not looked to see what other have already done in the past.
I don't think originality is one of Gevlon's strengths though.

Alkarasu said...

@Lucas Kell
"So If you didn't join, you wouldn't need "protection" from all that socialising."
The thing is that I don't want protection from all the socialising. Gevlon don't ban corpchat, he only limits the set of topics to be discussed there - to exactly the ones I may want to talk and I may want to listen to in EVE. You can't do that in NPC corp, there are only on/off setting. You may say that everything of that can be solved by a chat channel, and I will agree to it, but I don't exactly LOSE anything from joining my ganker alt, that has been born to be ganker alt and never will be anything but ganker alt to a corporation, that is created solely for such ganker alts. And by doing that I receive everything I will get from the chat channel, and will also get a banner to show to the people. Not a single anonymous ganker, who appears from the shadows and then vanishes, but an organisation with a declared goal. Considering the goal itself, it is very useful to be recognisable like that. Also, I don't know about the others, but I tend to perform better with a clear, visible goal. So the ganking quota is quite benefical for me as well -and without something "to lose" I may be tempted to lower it, or forget about it at all.

"If you are kicking them and your whole corp is "not understanding" then it's a problem that only YOU have. "
Probably, probably not, but the thing is, I don't want to find out. Because it's a long, painful process of being silent while you want to scream in rage, hoping, that it's only your problem with perception, knowing from the experience, that everywhere else it will be the same, until the very end, where you, as always, right, but get no joy from it.

"I think Gevlon either has a really REALLY low tolerance level for social interaction, or he managed to join a corp filled with the worst people in history."
Actually, his level of tolerance to social interaction is surprisingly high, from my observations here, in WoW, and in EVE. But, as it seems, he don't want to use that tolerance. And I can understand, why.

"WoW is a little different, as a lot of people playing are kids."
Average age of MMO games in general had risen above kids at the very start (right now only 25% are teenagers or younger, kids are in very small minority), right now it's about 26 years. So no, no kiddies over there as well.

Lucas Kell said...

@Alkarasu
"to exactly the ones I may want to talk and I may want to listen to in EVE"
So essentially you want a place you can all link kills and circle jerk without all that painful teamwork stuff that everyone else does. Without members building relationships, it's going to be a pretty quiet place with the occasional kill mail post to which there is no response. Much like Gevlons "Goblin Ganks" channel.

"but I don't exactly LOSE anything from joining my ganker alt"
But this is why I'm talking about gain, not loss. You don;t "lose" anything from joining most corps, but there are several gank corps out there that provide all your ships for you for example. That's a gain. There is no benefit to being in Gevlon's corp.

"I tend to perform better with a clear, visible goal"
You only goal will be to mirror Gevlon's actions, without any individuality or input. You will be acting as Gevlon's free version of ISBoxer. Rather you than me.

"Actually, his level of tolerance to social interaction is surprisingly high, from my observations here, in WoW, and in EVE."
Calling everyone that doesn't follow his standard a moron, heavily moderating posts and refusing to look at any form of communication which he doesn't control is social tolerance? I think not.
You should probably read his tiered levels of people, and you'll find that elevating yourself to his "rational" level means anything and everything social is a stupid waste of time according to him. That's not tolerance, that's arrogance.

"Average age of MMO games in general had risen above kids at the very start (right now only 25% are teenagers or younger, kids are in very small minority), right now it's about 26 years. So no, no kiddies over there as well."
Average age of MMO games eh? Well there's a considerable issue with that. Firstly, the sample sizes tend to be a bit small. WoWs last one was about 1800 people sampled.
Secondly, the types of people sampled generally tend to be older. In some countries there are restrictions on who you can even ask to take part, so most companies generally tend to aim 16+. Thirdly, the reported age of a player and the actual age tend to differ. Youngsters often tend to inflate their age to bypass restrictions.
I'd take the "Average age" with a pinch of salt and rely more on personal experience.

Alkarasu said...

@Lucas Kell
"So essentially you want a place you can all link kills and circle jerk without all that painful teamwork stuff that everyone else does."
No, nothing like that. And I can't help but laugh at people who think, that teamwork really need bad jokes and a lot of trash-talking among the team.
Because I've seen both ways. The one with not wasting everyone's time on something irrelevant is faster, more effective, and less prone to burnouts.

"Without members building relationships"
Anyone who wants to build relationship is free to use any non-corpchat ways to communicate with those willing. In The PuG anyone, who wanted to chat, just went to separate channel and chatted all they wanted, building whatever relationship they desire. And when you looked in guild chat, all you seen was relevant to ingame stuff and guild activity. Simple and efficient.

"You only goal will be to mirror Gevlon's actions, without any individuality or input."
Oh, look here, everyone, we got a prophet!
Pray tell me, by what dark sorcery did you pierced a veil of the future and saw what will I do? It's important, because I tend to have some doubts about what exactly I will do tomorrow myself, and some way to see more than a month forward will be quite useful.

"Calling everyone that doesn't follow his standard a moron"
Doesn't meet his standard? Or, rather, utterly failing in something people called they goal themselves? Because while Gevlon do tends to use the word a little too often, he rarely hits the first and often - the second.

"and refusing to look at any form of communication which he doesn't control is social tolerance?"
Strange, I've seen him in many places he doesn't control in the least. Was that some kind of fake Gevlon?
That he prefers places he have some control in, is pretty normal, most people do, but refusing? Stop making up fairy tales.

"You should probably read his tiered levels of people, and you'll find that elevating yourself to his "rational" level means anything and everything social is a stupid waste of time according to him. "
But it is! The only part of human life that absolutely do require social interaction above absolute minimum is a family. Everything else is happening not because it is in some way useful now, but because very long ago, when people lived in small, isolated and completely dependant on each other for survival groups it was.

"I'd take the "Average age" with a pinch of salt and rely more on personal experience."
And I've seen adult people, with families and kids, with a job, that requires a lot of brain power, acting ingame like they was ten and retarded. MMO's was games for adults from the very start. Kids came much later and still tend to prefer quick-resolution multiplayer to long and boring character building and learning. MOBA games of all sorts, WoT, CS - that's where the kids are.