Friday, January 18, 2013

The future of the New Order

Naysayers claim that the New Order will fail to have impact on the game economy and will remain a funny, roleplaying nonsense in highsec without any other effect than making some AFK-ers mad.

There are two challenges the New Order must - and clearly cannot - complete to reach its goals. At first, whole highsec must be covered. 2000+ systems. If we assume a Knight squad in every constellation, we will need more people online and in fleets than HBC had on the last timer of 49U. Clearly impossible.

Well, we are growing very fast, new Knights are arriving left and right so let's imagine we can continue to grow to the point of 2000 men standing army. Then what? The permanent botters and notorious AFK-leeches were smashed long ago, all that's left to gank is a few newbie Retreivers who failed to read the forums or talk with anyone in the belt who could have informed them. Maybe sometimes a permit holder thinks that 10M bought him AFK-ing rights and doesn't respond in local for longer time. But at this stage there will be 1-2 violating miners every day per constellation. A huge standing fleet is impossible on its own, now we are talking about a huge, standing patrolling but not fighting fleet. Let's be honest after a week of patrol most people will move to do something more fun, like grinding structures in stealth bombers.

We have to face it, the goals of the New Order are completely out of reach.

However the New Order is for the miners, and wish to facilitate the arrival of the active miner. It's not a mythical creature. New players mine actively since they are interested in the game. Casual miners detto. Multiboxers without bot also need to be around to manage their fleet. There are already active miners and with even a slight increase of mineral prices their numbers will grow.

Contrary to naysayers, the active miner isn't just looking at the cycle. He is watching local, communicating with other miners, watching directional scan for random griefers and so on. And above all, he spends his time in the belt (for obvious reasons). He knows that his worst enemy is the AFK-leech who devalues his products. So when he warps in the belt he checks on the fellow miners, both to join/form Orca-boosted fleet and to find AFK-ers. If he finds one and communication attempts fail for a longer period, he alerts the rest of the miners in the constellation, they relog to ganker alts and dispose the imposter. He won't get too many kills, but he won't mind as he is a miner. The kills are rather a little spice to his mining day. It will also serve as an introduction to PvP for the mainly PvE-er miners. His main activity will be - surprise - mining and socializing. Yes, I promote socializing as it is one level above leeching.

What about the Knights? Well, there will always be need for Knights but not in the number of thousands or even hundreds. A dozen Knights at a time online can keep the whole highsec clear. How? Because they don't have to bother about lone AFK-ing Macks, the miners handle those. The Knights are only called when the bad guys are really bad: bot-fleets, tanked Skiff AFK-er, combat ship protected bait Macks and so on. By the time we get to this phase, the Knighs will improve a lot. Those Knights won't resemble to the rag-tag militia of today. Orca alts will be all around highsec of the various knights, so one Orca can move to position in a few jumps. The Knights podjump to a close station, move to the Orca which deploys a few T2 Catalysts that the Knights mount and dispose the infidel. If the baddie is really-really bad, like a 20+ member botfleet, one of them follow it in covops, a proper fleet is planned for the next evening and the field cleaned up completely.

So yes, the low-meta Cata riding few days old alts of casual gankers have no future. But the active miners combined with a small elite force has. You probably guessed it, the crucial question is "will there be enough PvE players who switch to mining from missioning/ratting"? Only time will tell.

28 comments:

Anonymous said...

Contrary to naysayers, the active miner isn't just looking at the cycle.

Actually, he is.

He is watching local, communicating with other miners

Usually, he is not. unless he is in a corp, which you suggest he not be in.


watching directional scan for random griefers and so on.


Very few highsec miners would even know of the existance of dscan, let alone how to use it. Further to that, dscan in a busy system does not provide you with much worthwhile information. So someone is flying around in a tornado...dscan wont tell you if he is there to kill you.


And above all, he spends his time in the belt (for obvious reasons).


your AFKers that you cannot identify do the same thing.

He knows that his worst enemy is the AFK-leech who devalues his products.


Actually, if he has the slightest bit of common sense he realises that the AFK "leech" (to use your inaccurate terminology) does not devalue his products any more than the other active miners, because the contribution in terms of effort is exactly the same.


So when he warps in the belt he checks on the fellow miners, both to join/form Orca-boosted fleet and to find AFK-ers.


Most "afkers" will be orca boosted to...just sayin.


If he finds one and communication attempts fail for a longer period, he alerts the rest of the miners in the constellation, they relog to ganker alts and dispose the imposter.


Right there. That sentence there...is where you lost your mind. Just because you don't reply in local and have auto-reject chat on does not mean you are AFK. It can never mean you are AFK. It is impossible to determine from the outside the difference between an AFK miner and a non-AFK miner. Their behavior is IDENTICAL

Basically you have once again written a whole pile of words which twist and contort the facts to meet your strange view of the world.

Foo said...

I manufacture all the fuel blocks for sale, buying mats of the market.

I had noticed that Helium Isotopes (derived from Amarr Ice) was significantly cheaper than the rest; based on hisec prices with quantities of 100,000 or more.

(eve-central prices)

I assumed (like many others) that ice product prices would be significantly influenced by AFK/bot mining.

I then looked at www.eve-markets.net, looking at historical pricing, and the long term prices are downwards, with little to suggest a significant change.

For the new order to 'prove' itself; there should be an easily apparent fall in supply; with a commensurate large rise in prices for ice products;

Start with the cheapest 'provable' ice product : Helium Isotopes and Amarr Ice.

The pricing history is visible on eve-markets. I can not see any identifyable change in pricing caused by the new order.

So:
* new order is not as effective as suggested; or
* AFK/botting is not a significant supplier; or
* Refiners of ice are absorbing the cost difference.

Gevlon said...

@Foo: Amarr ice is the most abundant: http://greedygoblin.blogspot.hu/2012/12/considering-new-order-of-highsec.html

Check Gallente, where we operate

High-sec miner said...

I can imagine a world where active miners call upon knights when players in a belt are non responsive, but your idea of relogging a ganker alt is almost insane. As long as high-sec does not run out of ore/ice, switching char will never pay off even in the long run.

Pete Butcher said...

He knows that his worst enemy is the AFK-leech who devalues his products.

No, he isn't. Once again you try to add some unnecessary theory behind a simple technical problem of inability to distinguish AFK from bot. AFK miners make less effort than active ones, but mine less in the end. Yet an active miner, who doesn't calculate cycles (and mines the least efficient way) makes the exact same amount of effort and mines the same amount of ore. So, by what twisted logic AFK miner is my (market) enemy, since he cannot mine more than me? Making him active makes him my enemy, because he starts to mine more. If you look at it from a strictly market perspective, then ALL miners are my enemies, with active ones being the greatest of them.
I'm not trying to justify AFK in any way, just pointing how your logic is flawed here.

So when he warps in the belt he checks on the fellow miners, both to join/form Orca-boosted fleet and to find AFK-ers.

You really shouldn't be talking about things, you know nothing about. Why should someone boost me for free? I'll be directly competing with him. It would be like sharing profit from station trading with other station traders. There are miners who are social enough to do it (I've met them and mined with them), but the majority do it for PROFIT. And you're saying that miners should decrease their profit, so someone else can make more. Sounds like socialism.

If he finds one and communication attempts fail for a longer period, he alerts the rest of the miners in the constellation, they relog to ganker alts and dispose the imposter.

No, he doesn't because:

1. Not responding doesn't mean botting and bumping is to find it out cuts into his profit, for the reasons I stated in one of your previous posts.
2. Miners usually don't have ganking alts, because what for? Supporting such alt takes time + isk/$ which outweighs the cost.
3. Time to make the gank = time less mining = ISK lost.

The kills are rather a little spice to his mining day. It will also serve as an introduction to PvP for the mainly PvE-er miners.

Miners mine for ISK, not for "spice". Otherwise they would be PvPers, not miners.

Basically, most (if not all) your posts about the New Order are flawed in many ways. Ganking bots is good for everyone, but your justification for doing so and adding deeper philosophy where there isn't one, just makes no sense. I know you are unable to admit that you are wrong on something (see: WH fail), so please just stop. You are an intelligent person and as such you should know when it's time to stop such farce.

Gevlon said...

@Pete: AFK-ers, just like bots can mine insane amount of ore due to extreme online time. An active miner can mine 1-2 hours before RL stops him playing the game. The AFK-er can be online and mine all day since he can empty the hold every hour during work, or during the ad while watching TV with family.

Who the hell said that boost should be free. The Orca will surely ask for payment.

Not responding is enough reason to assume he is AFK, therefore killable. Please note that the big difference between active and inactive is self-defense. It's hard to kill one who warps off when the scout arrives or overheat hardeners. AFK-ers are easy preys.

Also you make the mistake of looking at current miners who are rather mining alts of PvP-ers. I'm seeking to form a real miner who identifies as miner and plays as a miner. For him PvP can be a funny side-play.

Mentioning the WH posts which were dumb. They were not even questioned by anyone. "i dun like them" isn't questioning. No one even attempted to disprove it with data. While it can be wrong, it's currently undisputed.

Anonymous said...

I am not sure what it is you are saying. Do you think the New Order will have an impact on the game economy or not? If you don't think it will have an impact, why should anyone even participate in it and waste their time. You don't accept "fun" as a credible goal, do you? You didn't before.

Anonymous said...

"He is watching local, communicating with other miners´"

No he is not, unless he is in the mining channel.

I agree with 1st anonymous...dscan in a system tells you 0 about who is on their way to kill you. Sure, you might keep an eye on anyone in a ganky type ship, but in a system where there is a stream of people going in and out, should he dock every time he sees a Tornado, or a cloaky ship jump in?

In a system where there are no more than 3 in local, sure, you could watch D-scan, but it gets boring after a few days of being an alert bunny, hitting refresh every X seconds only to see the same 2 ships all the time (Who you are probably chatting with in the mining channel anyway)

The smart miner does not think that AFKers devalue his products, he thinks people right click, selling ore devalue the product.

" An active miner can mine 1-2 hours before RL stops him playing the game"

How many hours did you courier stuff between hubs daily before RL stops you playing the game?
How many people do you think spend only 1-2 hours in Eve each day? 1-2 hours per day is barely going to get you a PLEX a month, so by your logic with regards to isk making, someone only mining 1-2 hours a day is being a moron, as there are much more productive ways of spending 1-2 hours per day in Eve (Station trading being one, then you can make isk while sleeping

Gevlon said...

I believe, the New Order will have economic impact, that's why I'm in it.

I still consider "fun" not a valid goal, but I have to accept that average players do I must consider it as THEIR motivation.

Pete Butcher said...

The AFK-er can be online and mine all day since he can empty the hold every hour during work, or during the ad while watching TV with family.

Ok, there is one possibility, but this is only a subset of AFK mining. In fact it's more similar to botting than being AFK. When I take 2 steps from my keyboard, I'm also AFK. Do I make more than being active in this case or less? If you want to go through different scenarios then whole AFK isn't bad, just one type of it. And it also applies only to some gigantic roids or ice, since I've never seen a roid which would fill up the whole cargo. Like I said - a small subset.

Who the hell said that boost should be free. The Orca will surely ask for payment.

So the Orca pilot would have to take more ISK than what the miner would gain from the boost. Therefore the miner would only loose ISK.

Not responding is enough reason to assume he is AFK, therefore killable.

Nope. If I browse the market and fail to respond in some time, would that mean I'm AFK? This assumption is invalid. As I said before - you can't tell bot from AFKer and that's all there is to it.

It's hard to kill one who warps off when the scout arrives or overheat hardeners.

You should try getting into a barge before writing such things. Warping off takes insane amount of time, you could gank a warping barge 5 times before it would enter warp. Fitting hardeners takes module space which would be used to increase yield, which is what a real miner should aim for. Both points invalid.

I'm seeking to form a real miner who identifies as miner and plays as a miner. For him PvP can be a funny side-play.

You are self contradicting. A real miner who dentifies as miner and plays as a miner is... a miner not a PvPer. For him mining is fun, PvP is the opposite of fun.

No one even attempted to disprove it with data.

Actually they were many times. First on eveopportunist, to which you only commented that is was only a try to attract visitors; then in some comments on EN24. Of course most of them was useless crap, but there were some with real analysis. Nevertheless, you can still claim you were right - it doesn't really matter. People who really play as WHers know how it all looks like, the same as people who play as real miners know how mining looks like. Other people can read what you and others say and judge for themselves, who seems more reasonable. But that's not the topic here, although you are approaching the point of saying what miners want without being a miner yourself.

Anonymous said...

They were not even questioned by anyone. "i dun like them" isn't questioning. No one even attempted to disprove it with data. While it can be wrong, it's currently undisputed.

They were questioned by a lot of people. Data wasn't required to disprove you because your methodology and logic were debunked soundly and reasonably on multiple fronts...

Just as your "analysis" of the situation with AFK miners has been debunked soundly and reasonably on multiple fronts.

To put it another way, you have put forth an assertion and it is up to you to prove it. If the review of your peers finds repeated fault with it then you are probably wrong. It is not their responsibility to formulate a counter argument or theory that runs contrary to yours - simply pointing out the flaw in the reasoning is far enough.

Your job then is to take what they said and either: 1) Adjust your theory and try again, 2) accept that you are wrong and move on.

In both cases I would suggest 2 - because there is nothing worth salvaging in the mangled wreck of an argument that is left on either issue.

Anonymous said...

@Pete: AFK-ers, just like bots can mine insane amount of ore due to extreme online time. An active miner can mine 1-2 hours before RL stops him playing the game. The AFK-er can be online and mine all day since he can empty the hold every hour during work, or during the ad while watching TV with family.

"Active" and "AFK" miners pocket the same amount of ore and need to be online for precisely the same amount of time in every instance. Every. Single. Instance.

What differentiates a bot is that the only human element required (moving the ore to a can or orca and then hauling it to station, changing to new rocks after old ones pop) can be automated.

Bots are nowhere near as prevalent as the propaganda would suggest as CCP has done quite a lot in recent times to crack down on known botting software and hasn't spared the rod with respect to bans.

So what you are left with in most cases are Active Miners and Non-Active AFK Miners. As already pointed out countless times there is no valid way to prove someone is or is not active, ergo all you are left with is miners, ergo all you can gank is miners and make no distinction between their afkness or not.

From an economic point of view of a competitive point of view there is no difference between an active miner or an AFK miner. Both mine the same hours and do the same amount of work, and will net the same amount of income.

You act like this New Order is a new thing, which once again shows how young you are in eve. Countless organised attempts to grief miners (which is all this amounts to) have risen and fallen over the years. To name a few, jihadswarm, hulkageddon, the gallente ice interdiction.... and now the new order.

Given the Goon connection with James, and the fact that the new order is targeting gallente ice it could be seen as the spiritual successor to the wildly successful gallente ice interdiction. Are you sure you haven't become the willing patsy in a goon market manipulation project?

Things are not always what they seem Gevlon.. Making logically fallacious arguments to try and justify something which may not be what you think it is makes you look a little silly.

Gevlon said...

@Anonymous: no, they didn't disprove it, merely stated that they don't LIKE the results. To disprove something, you should actually put forth an argument. In the WH case, against the overwhelming amount of data they presented their individual experience: "I PvP so WH-ers are PvP-ers". Or even worse, their feelings: "no local makes me feel threatened so WH is dangerous".

No one actually attempted to prove that there is more PvP in WH space than in null or low.

Same with AFK mining. They simply resort to "I like getting ISK without effort so its fine".

@Second anonymous: the difference between active and inactive miners is obvious. Active one both responds to communication and notices that the scout is sitting on him 200m with New Order propaganda in his Bio.

Again: active miner is limited by playing time. While there are "no-lifers", most players spend a few hours a day in the game. Assuming he does other things in the game than mining, mining time is limited to 1-2 hours a day. An AFK-er can mine 12+ hours a day if his job allows him to run a client on his workplace computer without him actually slacking in work.

Obviously all GRIEFING campaigns have ended as the griefers got bored. The New Order on the other hand can't care less about tears, we are after changing mining.

Attacking Gallente like Goons have simple reason: Gallente has the less ice.

Gevlon said...

@Anonymous: no, they didn't disprove it, merely stated that they don't LIKE the results. To disprove something, you should actually put forth an argument. In the WH case, against the overwhelming amount of data they presented their individual experience: "I PvP so WH-ers are PvP-ers". Or even worse, their feelings: "no local makes me feel threatened so WH is dangerous".

No one actually attempted to prove that there is more PvP in WH space than in null or low.

Same with AFK mining. They simply resort to "I like getting ISK without effort so its fine".

@Second anonymous: the difference between active and inactive miners is obvious. Active one both responds to communication and notices that the scout is sitting on him 200m with New Order propaganda in his Bio.

Again: active miner is limited by playing time. While there are "no-lifers", most players spend a few hours a day in the game. Assuming he does other things in the game than mining, mining time is limited to 1-2 hours a day. An AFK-er can mine 12+ hours a day if his job allows him to run a client on his workplace computer without him actually slacking in work.

Obviously all GRIEFING campaigns have ended as the griefers got bored. The New Order on the other hand can't care less about tears, we are after changing mining.

Attacking Gallente like Goons have simple reason: Gallente has the less ice.

Anonymous said...

@Anonymous: no, they didn't disprove it, merely stated that they don't LIKE the results. To disprove something, you should actually put forth an argument. In the WH case, against the overwhelming amount of data they presented their individual experience: "I PvP so WH-ers are PvP-ers". Or even worse, their feelings: "no local makes me feel threatened so WH is dangerous".

Nope, everything I read was actually breaking your methodology to pieces. The disagreement with your conclusion had nothing to do with whether or not they liked it or not, and everything to do with the fact that your reasoning was demonstrably flawed. Your failing was not to realise this. Your pride in your own conclusion prevented you from doing so.

No one actually attempted to prove that there is more PvP in WH space than in null or low.

Nobody had to. Simply pointing out that your reasoning was flawed was enough to conclude the the manner in which you came to your own conclusions was fundimentally flawed. Why is there any need to prove the contrary when you can simply prove the initial assertion is logically incorrect and doesn't stand up to scrutiny?


Same with AFK mining. They simply resort to "I like getting ISK without effort so its fine".


It is the same with AFK mining - in so far as your assertions have been destroyed countless times through well reasoned arguments which run contrary to your view of the world.


@Second anonymous: the difference between active and inactive miners is obvious. Active one both responds to communication and notices that the scout is sitting on him 200m with New Order propaganda in his Bio.


Actually this doesn't prove activity one little bit.


Again: active miner is limited by playing time. While there are "no-lifers", most players spend a few hours a day in the game. Assuming he does other things in the game than mining, mining time is limited to 1-2 hours a day. An AFK-er can mine 12+ hours a day if his job allows him to run a client on his workplace computer without him actually slacking in work.

No he cannot. Absolutely he cannot. If the AFKer does what you propose he will pop the first rock inside of the first hour and the he will sit there in space, his ship completely idle.

There is no time gained by AFKing. Both the AFK and the Active miner need to do the following with fairly monotonous regularity:

1) Change to new rocks after old ones pop
2) Move ore from cargo to an orca or hauler for shipping back to station
3) Re-position their ship within the belt (depending on the belt shape) to target new rocks.

Being AFK does not get you out of these mandatory activities. The AFKer is time limited in exactly the same respect as the active miner. There is literally zero difference and continually claiming there is doesn't change this fact.

Obviously all GRIEFING campaigns have ended as the griefers got bored. The New Order on the other hand can't care less about tears, we are after changing mining.

Attacking Gallente like Goons have simple reason: Gallente has the less ice.

Obviously all GRIEFING campaigns have ended as the griefers got bored. The New Order on the other hand can't care less about tears, we are after changing mining.
You are not changing anything :) And you will not change anything. The same thing that happened to other griefing campaigns will happen to the new order. We've seen this all before.

Attacking Gallente like Goons have simple reason: Gallente has the less ice.


The reason Goon's attacked Gallente had nothing to do with volume, and everything to do specifically manipulating oxytopes for strategic purposes. Go and look at what they are used for to figure out why, and why it would still be advantageous to drive gallente ice prices up.

Pete Butcher said...

The New Order on the other hand can't care less about tears, we are after changing mining.

Oh please, do you really believe that? If it wasn't about tears, then why James' posts on his blog ale almost all about tears, by some miner who refused to pay? Why the bio changing and forced acknowledging his superiority?
Earlier you claimed that NO is altruistic. Again - really? Then why the 10m permits? Why every knight I see on local posts some KM telling "you can avoid this by purchasing a permit"? Why did James announced NO as "interesting business opportunity" on EVE-O forums? The truth is - NO is ALL about making ISK and collecting tears from those, who don't pay. The root cause is indeed noble - destroying botters - but the execution is nothing more than a simple extortion scheme. If you believe otherwise - you reached the point of being James' moron, as casual traders are morons to you.
As for the WH fiasko - there were people with logical arguments and they were validly questioning your data. You can't/don't want to see it - that's your problem. People have seen both arguments, people have analyzed them, most didn't agree with you. End of story.

Pim said...

Gevlon writes: [i]To disprove something, you should actually put forth an argument. In the WH case, against the overwhelming amount of data they presented their individual experience.... Same with AFK mining.
the difference between active and inactive miners is obvious. Active one both responds to communication and notices that the scout is sitting on him 200m with New Order propaganda in his Bio.[/i]

You have no data to prove that there is a difference between active miner and AFK miner. The only data consists of the collection of individuals sharing their experiences as comments in this blog. Allow me to add one more data point to your collection.

When I actively mine (because I do not have the talent or IRL resources to mine AFK), I never read local chat (I prefer Goblinworks or nothing at all); but I will notice if someone bumps me. I split my attention between mining lasers, browsing the market, and occasionally reading Evelopedia with the in game browser.

The data you've collected so far overwhelmingly concludes that active miners do not read local chat. Of course this data is prone to a very large selection bias. So large that it's more appropriate to say you do not have any valid data at all.

Your inferences about the motivations and activities of miners are not based on data, but rather your understanding of human behavior. Based on MY understanding of human behavior, I mostly agree with your conclusions.

Bing Bangboom said...

This is a blog about the economics of MMOs so it is natural that its author focuses on the economic aspects of phenomena in the games he writes about. The New Order clearly has an economic core and Gevlon's analysis and conjectures about the future may very well be accurate. Its also natural that the discussion here would revolve around the practical issues involved in the interdiction of Highsec Ice mining.

However, the New Order transends this material aspect of the game. In documents James 315 wrote prior to the creation of the New Halaima Code of Conduct and www.minerbumping.com, he discusses a basic, existential reason for what he, and eventually we, the Agents of the New Order, are doing. These source documents are available through the links tab on James 315's website which take you to the archives of themittani.com.

These three documents, "The Truth Behind the Exhumer Rebalancing", "The Road to Nerfdom: Highsec's Carebear Future" and "Why a Risk-Free Highsec Would Kill Eve Online" spell out what all this hoopla is all about. At the risk of leaving out important detail, I summarize it as this:

CCP is moving gradually to eliminate non consensual pvp from Highsec. This is being done through a series of nerfs and buffs at the request of highsec residents who want to perform their desired activities without interference from other players. The group most responsible for these demands is the highsec miners.

Everything else flows from this central core issue. The New Order of Highsec is attempting to alert the entire Eve community that the game we play now is in danger of being changed into... something else. We acknowledge that CCP has an interest in maximizing subscriptions. We recognize that they are making changes to the game in order to do so. BUT, we think these changes will, in fact, destroy what makes Eve unique.

The New Order exists to bring the discussion of this movement into the awareness of the entire community. Working around the exhumer buff, the changes to wardec mechanics, the "griefing" clause in the EULA, the removal of a financial incentive to gank have all presented challenges to the New Order. The particular approach to how we do things are all in response to obstacle CCP has placed in our path. Even the well known locking of Eve forum threads related to miner bumping has been overcome by using our own communication channels to the Eve community. You are reading one right now!

If you read www.minerbumping.com or even just visit local when we Agents are active you will know that there is a vocal group who believe that they should not be interfered with while mining or otherwise playing Eve. Each comment on the miner bingo game is related to an entitled carebear who wants us to go away. The ever popular "Highsec Miner Grab Bag" feature on the blog is full of people who are vocal in their insistence that we go away.

to be continued

Bing Bangboom said...

Well, we aren't going away. We are fighting for the soul of Eve as a dark, dangerous place where a player cannot take his attention away from the screen. Where if you aren't fighting for what you want, you will lose it. Where the only thing you are entitled to is the opportunity to try to do what you want.

We Agents of the New Order tell miners they cannot mine in our systems unless they are Code compliant. We then show them that this is a fact. A fact WE make real. Not because of the details about what AFK mining is and what the EULA allows or doesn't allow. Its because Eve is you either bend the other player to your will or bend to his.

In the famous frog in the boiling water experiment, the frog doesn't know he is in danger until its too later. We believe CCP is gradually heating the water on highsec pvp. If they just eliminated pvp in highsec immediately they know it would cause mass unsubscribing. Even though they may not really know they are doing it, they are moving the game in that direction, gradually, quietly, until its done.

When you hear some whining miner complain that we are cowardly pirates afraid to go to low sec, that we are extorting them, that we are just in it for the ISK, you will at least know the truth. We are fighting for something bigger than than afk mining. We want much more than tears or a measly 10,000,000 ISK.

We want to save Eve.

Do you really want us to stop?

Highsec is worth fighting for.

Bing Bangboom
Agent of the New Order of Highsec
Belligerent Undesirable

Bobbins said...

'The New Order on the other hand can't care less about tears, we are after changing mining.'

Is that the royal we?

Sugar Kyle said...

There is a line in the CSM minutes about bounties where they say that the players were complaining because they could now be poked by other players and they were not used to that.

Your accusations of afk players that are situationally aware fall into the realm of people not caring to interact.

People start this game and complain about their most valuable resources because it has people in it. That's rookie chat.

My own CEO might be afk for days and then he dumps a ton of fits into the corp ship fits.

Afk by not interacting with others does not mean Eve is not being played.

Anonymous said...

"We Agents of the New Order tell miners they cannot mine in our systems unless they are Code compliant. We then show them that this is a fact. A fact WE make real. Not because of the details about what AFK mining is and what the EULA allows or doesn't allow. Its because Eve is you either bend the other player to your will or bend to his"

This is totally fine, and totally acceptable, even applaudable (sp?). Just be up front about it and stop trying to claim it is anything other than the above, which many, including GG are trying. The miners are not doing anything wrong, which is what the New Order propaganda says. They are simply not playing how YOU want to play, so you are changing it with force. That is totally fine. Again, just admit to it and then continue with the campaign and stop with the afk/bot aspirant/active BS.

Anonymous said...

..Let me start out by saying that I have subscribed to Eve again, just to join the New Order. This is the second time that you have made me subscribe, let's just hope this new venture is more interesting then your last one.

I am for the New Order. I like everything James and the Agents are doing. Emergent gameplay at its finest. That being said, The New Order is just a fun activity for be pilots who participate. See if you can dispute this:

Botters: Botters are used to getting free Isk without having to work for it. No matter how many times you bump them or kill their ship, they will never go from billions of no work Isk to millions of Isk that they have to actively work for. They will move systems or start botting in missions or nulsec.

Semi afkers: Again like the Botters, they will never go from close to effortless Isk to Isk that they have to work for. Same outcome for he Semi afkers as the Botters.

Active non code compliment miners: They aren't a problem for eve. They could improve and get involved with an organized mining operation, but none the less, they aren't bad for Eve. Taxing, bumping, and ganking will not make them pay 10m. And really that 10m from them is insignificant.

Active code compliment miners: They are active, good for Eve. They have paid their pitiful 10m Isk, helping nobody.

Point is no behavior will change. Botters will still bot, afkers will still afk, rebels will still rebel. What can the New Order do? Besides doing what they do best, which is providing a great venture for interested pilots and tears for everyone.

Furthermore, most ice and ore comes from the nulsec bot farms! Deep in the safe sov of nulsec, there are players with 5-60 Botters sucking down the never depleting moon-sized roids! The high sec Botters are just a tiny drop in the huge bucket. What can the new order do about that? Does the new order even want to touch the nulsec botter fields?

Lets just call this what it is. A fun and interesting venture that makes everyone but the miners happy. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for that. I'm joining the New Order. Buti hold no illusions that disrupting the high sec Botters (5% of all bots) will do anything to influence mineral prices or the human behaviors.

Bing Bangboom said...

"This is totally fine, and totally acceptable, even applaudable (sp?). Just be up front about it and stop trying to claim it is anything other than the above, which many, including GG are trying. The miners are not doing anything wrong, which is what the New Order propaganda says. They are simply not playing how YOU want to play, so you are changing it with force. That is totally fine. Again, just admit to it and then continue with the campaign and stop with the afk/bot aspirant/active BS."

Lets say we do as you suggest. We go into local and explain that consensual highsec pvp is being nerfed, that this is a bad thing, and that we should all join together to keep it from happening. We ask them to go read the three source documents.

No one would listen to us. We would be boring, unconvincing, useless talkers.

BUT, suppose we go into a system and we claim it. We tell the miners there that we are in charge and that they will do as we say. We bump and gank those who do not comply. We do all this in the name of an over-riding purpose AND person who claims sovereignty over all of Highsec. We cause them to pay attention because we cannot be safely ignored. We create a movement that attracts more and more people to our cause. We create a discussion in game, in forums, and in blogs about "why is this happening?" and "should something be changed?".

Aren't we Agents just having a conversation with the citizens of Highsec about what kind of place it is and what kind of place it is supposed to be? Not a "words only" conversation which can be ignored. An action speaks louder than words conversation. And a conversation that many people not only enjoy but want to see continue because of the way we speak, the way we act and the claims we make. Sure, lots of players hate us because of what we do... but lots of players love us for it. We entertain them, we make them think and most of all, we give them hope that Eve isn't just watching an ore hold fill up and dumping into an Orca. Anyone who can read www.minerbumping.com and not be entertained is seriously lacking something, either perspective or a basic sense of humor.

You say the miners are not doing anything wrong. We say they are doing almost everything wrong. AFK mining, fitting for max yield, ignoring local and dscan... these are things that they can only do because highsec has been nerfed. Nerfed by their demands. And they want more. They want CCP to stop us from bumping them. This is their complaint. They have been bumped. Highsec is so dangerous that someone bumped into them. CCP is actually having an internal discussion as we speak about what to do about the bumping. This is Eve? Its the Eve that the highsec miners have brought us.

What I'm telling you is not the secret inner workings of the New Order. James 315's three articles are publicly available. Trying to say we succeed or fail by whether we can only bother the AFK or botters, or whether we change the price of ice isn't the point. Its not even to provide an entertaining source of emergent gameplay. We have a message and a goal. We also have a wildly successful way of spreading our message which may, or may not, allow us to attain our goal. But we are probably what the carebears fear the most... we are true believers.

And we will not stop.

Highsec is worth fighting for.

Bing Bangboom
Agent of the New Order of Highsec
Belligerent Undesirable

Anonymous said...

Semi afkers:
Active non code compliment miners:

It is these 2 which are indistinguishable, not the botter and the afker.

Botters are hard to detect (and rare) - but the hilarious thing always was to destroy their exhumer and leave their pod, and watch their pod warp back and forth between station and belt all day long.

Maxim Preobrazhenskiy said...

Like the concept of a mining community actively defending and asserting it's interests with a small elite force of Knights to use for tasks that require higher force multipliers.

The core problem, then, lies in the creation of a mining community that would be active in defending and asserting it's interests. At the moment, it is just a collection of individual miners, who mostly treat other miners as competition for their resources.

In short, instead of the currently militant New World Order, you need a more economy-oriented miner's guild. This guild would welcome people who actively enjoy mining, teach them how to play together nicely for everyone's benefit, how to respond to external stuff that lowers their enjoyment of mining and when to call in the Knights (that the guild provides).

Creating such a guild requires two things to be true.
a) That there is a genuine "mining experience" that makes people interested in mining as a game activity.
b) That having more than one person (or even one squad of mutually supporting persons) mining (and potentially selling) together can be beneficial for each individual and has significantly higher returns over a long period than just being selfish at everyone else's expense.

If both of these things are true, it should be possible to create an idea that would unify the miner's guild, give it purpose, draw in level-3 purpose-seeking socials, who are then able to implement and maintain the rulesets that level-2 rule-abiding socials will be able to follow.

---------
I hope the innate contradiction of having to create a social system under the banner of asocial goals is not lost on you :D

Should you succeed, you might manage to create a new path for ascension from M&S to asocial for those who like mining.

Druur Monakh said...

@Foo

In addition to rarity, not all ice is created equal. Gallente POSes are the second best choice for industrialists (bonus to silo storage), and Gallente capitals are arguably in the top-tier of desirable capital ships.

@Gevlon

Are you sure that you're not just a pawn in a Goon pump-and-dump market operation?

Anonymous said...

@Druur

That would be my thinking too, or just a standard "rack up free money for the lols" from James.
Its up to 48 billion so far. Not the standard IPO though, as it does not pay out dividends, so basically just an isk sink ^^

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