Greedy Goblin

Thursday, December 20, 2012

The PvP-er problem

Most players of EVE stay in highsec. I also found that the most profitable region is highsec. According to the developers highsec is the least profitable zone of the game. The lowest of ore, weak PI yield, small rats, no moon materials or sleepers. Yet the people use to have highsec alts to earn money instead of working in nullsec. Despite I lived in one of the most dense regions of nullsec in an alliance that actively support its members to live in their space, the income wasn't stellar. Not theirs, not mine doing some trading and PI.

What makes highsec so profitable in comparison? The relative protection from PvP-ers. To see how they are a problem, we just have to peek on their self-definition "players who play for the "good fights". The pilots in the fleets with me came hoping that the enemy shows up and expressed discontent when they "refused to fight us". Others roam the space looking for nothing but fights. They are actually making money only to support their PvP.

While I took part in dozens of fleet actions, I never considered myself a PvP-er. If you play EVE, you can't avoid PvP and I didn't avoid it. However my PvP activity was a mean to a goal. If we want Catch region repainted to our colors, we must defeat its owners. So off I went to escort structure grinding supers and to take down cynojammers. Sometimes the enemy shown up and in these case I did my best to defeat them. However I preferred when they didn't show up and I could alt-tab and do other things. I'm not a "moral carebear", someone who shuns destroying assets of other players. However for me PvP is always just a tool to get something done. Maybe this is what TEST members called "pubbie", something I couldn't escape from. No matter how much I supported TEST and how many fights I was in with them, I always remained an outsider because I had a different mindset: for me the fight itself was a necessary evil to get the job done, while for them everything else was necessary evil to get a fight.

Why they are a problem? Because the PvP-ers can't be deterred from attacking just by making it unprofitable. For industrialists they are considered nothing but an obstacle. They aren't a small one. They are big enough to make most of the money-oriented players stay in highsec despite their material drawbacks just because here CONCORD takes care of most of the PvP-ers. Please read how complicated mining in wormholes is and compare it to "target 2 rocks, start your beams, Alt-tab". Let me also tell the story of 2 jumps: the active and medical clone of Titania Goblin, my logi/carrier alt was in K-6K16 with all jump clones in TEST space. This was a big mistake from me since if I'm podded I can't update or relocate my clone. The solution was to fly to 319-3D which belong to NPCs and have medical service. That's just 2 jumps. But to make that 2 jumps, Cindy, my scout alt worked about half an hour creating safes to check on the gates for bubbles and forward-scouted for Titania to spot any surprise-campers. Half an hour work just to do 2 jumps and avoid skillpoint loss. In highsec this would have been 5 seconds: undock, activate autopilot. I'll probably damn that full +5 clone and podjump myself to highsec now that I could relocate the medical clone because earning the price of those implants is faster than making safes for 7 more jumps in nullsec and then forward-scout 15 in low (no bubbles in low, all you need there is spot serious gatecamps with your scout).

The "moral carebears" demand CCP to get rid of the PvP-ers. In their eyes they are nothing but unneeded barbarians who do nothing but griefing. I disagree in the part regarding CCP despite I fully agree that PvP-ers are nothing but zombies who are destructive for no reason (in the game). They are combative and not competitive. However their barbarism adds content to the World. Consider them especially well programmed rats. Antagonists that makes anything happen. Imagine EVE without them! Everyone are mining and ratting, collecting ships and ISK just to mine and rat more. Not interesting at all. While you could define "winning" in such game (being more rich), it would simply be a function of time spent in game. The zombie horde turns it upside down. Becoming rich is now more of a function of smartness than time. All those freighters died in Niarja are competitors of mine. When they died and I didn't, I won over them the same way as a WoW raider who kills the boss wins over the raider who cannot. These haulers wiped on the Goons of Niarja. Noobs!

A capitalist-minded industrialist must support the rights of PvP-ers and vote for the CSM members who are the most vehement opposers of making highsec safer. I now "run" 11 accounts (play on 2, used to play on 2 more while in TEST, rest are learning in stations). Unless someone comes up with a very good industrial plan, my 11 votes will go to the Goon block candidate. My own plans of making the story of spreading capitalism in EVE needs PvP-ers and will count on their continued existence.

The capitalist ideas in EVE failed because they ignored the financially irrational PvP-ers. You must include them in your scheme, preferably use them for your own good like the block leaders use them as cannon fodder for their conquests.

Don't miss the post tomorrow! It's a real mythbuster and not some idea but facts supported by lot of numbers!


Anonymous said...

should go for a proper pvp candidate, not a goon block candidate who proud 'emselve into not knowing too much about pvp.

the csm is supposed to be advisors for ccp - voting people who don't care about the games balance is stupid.

Anonymous said...

It's all about the mindset and goals. You have the mindset of figuring out the system, finding most profitable way to play and etc.

Other guys have focus on different things, like pvp. While it's true that high sec is more profitable for solo players due to lack of danger, however this is no way true for united forces, such as corps/alliances.

I live in low sec, and i can tell you for sure, hell will freeze first, before I go back to live permanently in high sec. Controlling remote area it makes quite danger free. Sure you get visits from tourists and hunters, cloak afkers which can disturb your ops, but that does not impact as much as everyone shouts. My friends have perfected mission farming and easily earn 100mil/hour or more. Plus you can do any sites even with not blues in system if you are prepared for that and be smart about it. Mining is a bit more on the downside, but there are plenty of grav sites that can be quite safe and profitable if it's your thing.

Your rule as HS most richest place is not a rule of thumb. People that use HS as isk source most likely do not have efficient knowledge/possibility/motivation to earn in other areas outside. I for one do not like mission farming, so I chose to take less efficient income, which is enough to sustain my needs.

I would actually challenge you to put yourself into average Joes shoes. Don't use your income from trading and try to join WH corp or low sec corp (PVE oriented or PVP). Try to run LVL4s, exploration in High sec, low sec, and then wormhole life.

You only tried NULL and base your findings in biggest alliance and trading a.k.a which you sum up as all high sec income.

Unknown said...

In order to have a rich ecosystem, yes, you need griefers (I would call the people that you're calling PvPers in this article griefers). Ideally, the player-driven story could involve fighting back griefers and establishing one sort of civilization or another, and armed "discussion" about what sort of civilization (benevolent tyranny? communist? capitalist?) should exist.

However, in order to have those player-driven stories, you also need to have balance. If destruction is vastly easier than creation then the nullsec landscape will continue to look like a recent warzone - incredibly sparsely populated, without much industry and impoverished.

One way that destruction is vastly easier than creation is that some of the tools of destruction are purchaseable for real money in highsec. That's not going to change; it's what CCP lives on. Another way that destruction is easier than creation is that creation requires coordination among players, and we (the real world) don't really know how to support people organizing for a common goal in the presence of anonymity, griefers, and quitting.

More and better support for nullsec administration - for example, there are administration costs to renting (human time reviewing applicants, checking up on people behaving properly, et cetera). If CCP lowered those administration costs by coding it explicitly, they could change the nullsec landscape towards renting.

I don't know whether the new bounty system lowers the human administration costs of enforcing norms by taking out bounties on people who violate norms, but I think that's one of the things it was intended to do.

Gevlon said...

PvP is too easy in nullsec and too hard in highsec. Therefore highsec is greatly overpowered.

Anonymous said...

Sorry to hear you got kicked out of TEST. I stopped reading for a while so this was the first I noticed.

Your voting plan is flawed. You already know that the goon candidates will get elected because the goons are more organized and politically savvy than their opponents. If you want more PvP and nullsec content vote for the PL candidates. They may not actually get re-elected, they actually understand mechanics and balance, and they have actually worked hard in past/current CSM.

The only risk is that they force through a 'bigger alliance tournament arena with more forgiving boundaries' agenda.

PvP is actually easier in highsec in a lot of ways. There are more targets, they are always dumber, and you can pick who can fight back. Its trivial to move your gang into position, trivial to hide scouts, trivial to get your gang safe when outmatched, you cannot be bombed, have caps dropped, be bubbled, and there is basically no meta-game to it.

PvP is in no way to easy in Null sec. The process of actually provoking a fight in Null is an art form. Most people hate structure grinding with a burning passion and only do it because its the only way to provoke a fight other than ganking someone or having good relations with a hostile side.

If you want to get back into null in a less trollish alliance I would suggest Razor. They are part of the CFC, so they have lots of Sov and share your view that the objective of a Sov war is to win at all costs. They are openly carebear friendly, don't troll, and advertise themselves as a mature alliance.

You can also technically get into Sniggwaffe, PL's training corp, however its a match made in hell.

I still think you haven't really understood the reasons for TEST's success. No middle management doesn't explain superior fleet concepts, more pilots online, more people willing to volunteer

Cody F said...

I'm a new player, but from what I've seen I think the main issue is the devaluation of money.

Ships are far too easy to get. I'm okay with some ships being easily acquired such as frigates to cruisers, but after that it should be a major investment.

Of course, there a lot of issues. And it's going to be very tough to balance. It should not be so easy for large alliances to hold large swathes of null space. I think you're right in a large part of this is due to the lack of population. However, there should be a large logistical challenge to this that makes it unattractive.

In addition, my vision for Eve would make industry the center of every corporations. No country works without a strong industry, and neither should a corporation/alliance. However, they currently appear to just take over sov and sit there and make money out of it. It should rely more on materials acquired in null spec being required in high sec, and arduous convoys required to sell them there. Thus putting a constant upkeep on keeping an empire profitable, but the only way to acquire truly epic ships.

These are just my ramblings...

Probably not the best organized, but my thoughts on the matter!

Anonymous said...

Perhaps you should join James315's high sec gankers, and see how trivially easy highsec pvp really is.

Anonymous said...

You were kicked from Test and constantly labeled a 'pubbie' due to your own actions. If anyone else under the sun were recruited to Test and acted the way you did they would have met the same result.

You came in and started throwing out weird and convoluted ideas that weren't completely hashed out. Furthermore, what ideas you did have that were sound you expected others to jump on the bandwagon and do all the work to support your idea.

Some of us thought you were alright, a decent guy, at first. Yet after being told over and over to meet with the relevant people for this or that idea, you did nothing but continue to churn out half-baked theories about what the coalition and alliance is doing wrong, or what we should do instead.

As for the question of which part of space is more profitable? Undeniably nullsec brochacho. Yes, the rank and file guy in test probably doesn't have vast quantities of isk, but what is he doing? He is going out there in a lot of cases and losing assets willing to play the way he wants. Meanwhile, people who do want to have a literal goldmine in their wallet? Those people can do so easily, in conditions that are at times even safer than highsec and at a faster rate.

Look, I wish you could have been able to actually maybe listen to some advice in the past, and that your stay in test was better, because if you had, you would have been good to have around. Someone who is able to think forward is a plus, it just you need to be willing to shape your ideas, take them somewhere, and show effort instead of wanting others to do the heavy lifting. Bros help each other, they don't expect the other guy to do everything solo.