Sunday, December 16, 2012

Morons of the weekend

Let me provide you a list of wonderful specimens who are on a quest to prove that the average IQ in EVE isn't higher than in WoW: For a change: Tankless blinged Moros
And another one!
I failed to figure out what he tried with this 5B Machariel, but it clearly didn't work.

Finally the king of stupid today: 16B blockade runner. Let's spend some time digging into this terminal case of mental degradation: at first, his cargo was small, so could have placed into a covops T3 that has enough EHP to survive these smartbombing Rokhs.
Secondly, you shouldn't haul 16B into a Rancer without scouting it.
Thirdly, you shouldn't haul 16B into a Rancer at all.
Ad four, in a covops hauler nanofiber internal structures go to low slots, not cargohold expanders. Same for rigs.
I don't even mention wardeccable corp, since he died in lowsec.

The smaller brother of the same fit: a 6B non-cloaky T1 hauler!

21 comments:

Anonymous said...

As pointed out previously, there is nothing wrong with a shield moros in a C6 pulsar. The one described here is exactly that. The shield moros in this system is the correct dreadnaught to fly. It has no tracking mods because the wormhole dreadnaught meta involves 'grinder' fleets - support ships are responsible for webbing and painting targets down to near dead stop and ballooning their signatures to hell. The result is basically instant popping of any sub capital ship which is not specifically tanked against gallente damage (and 2 or 3 shotting them if they are tanking that way)

tl;dr - there is absolutely nothing wrong with a shield moros and it is the superior dreadnaught even when shield tanked in a pulsar. A T2 phoenix will NOT out perform it. If you don't believe me you are welcome to bring a phoenix to play. I'll happily deprive you of one in a C6 pulsar, just name the time and place.

The AHARM 'tankless' moros looks to be carrying a refit and looks to be somewhat partly through a refit. This happens in capital engagements (the current prevailing wisdom is to start wear through an passive and an active armor tank setup, and swap out to a hull tanking [reinforced bulkhead] setup as a last roll of the dice - why this moros was unable to complete this I don't know, but there is a refit in the hold).

Gevlon said...

Let's compare the T2 version of this shield Moros with a T2 Phoneix (I didn't want to spend all day with blinging). Perfect Siege warfare boost

[Moros, New Setup 2]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Co-Processor II

Capital Shield Booster I
Shield Boost Amplifier II
EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Siege Module II
Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I, Guristas Antimatter Charge XL
Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I, Guristas Antimatter Charge XL
Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I, Guristas Antimatter Charge XL

Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I

2.87M EHP buffer (3.22 overheated)
18.4K EHP/sec rep (22.2 hardeners overheat)
12.2K DPS within 38km
2:33 until capacitor down. After it's down, turning the shield booster off is not enough, it eat guns too. So shield booster must be turned off at 2:20 to save cap for guns

[Phoenix, siege]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Co-Processor II

EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Capital Shield Booster I

Siege Module II
Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Guristas Scourge Citadel Torpedo
Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Guristas Scourge Citadel Torpedo
Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Guristas Scourge Citadel Torpedo

Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I

3.20M EHP buffer (3.84 overheated)
27.6K EHP/sec rep (35.5 resistors overheat)
9.3K DPS within 59km
2:37 capacitor and regenerate cap with shield booster off, booster can run in 12% of the time

The dreads shall live 5 minutes to exit siege and get cap and rep from carriers.
During 5 minutes the Moros can rep 2.58M EHP, so 5.42M EHP must be damaged to kill it. The Phoenix reps 4.8M so 8M must be killed. Assuming they can constantly replace overheated hardeners, it increases to 6.3M and 9.9M.

So the Phoenix EHP is 47% (57% with overheats) better.
The damage of the Moros is 31% better. Add that Moros is locked to kin/therm while Phoenix can shoot any damage. So please explain me why the Moros is better than the Phoenix in a non-tracking situation like anti-capital or heavily supported.

Anonymous said...

You should at least use the guy who you are accusing of being a moron's fit..

His fit (in a C6 pulsar, where it died) has 3.66M EHP and will keep its cap running for 3m8s. That is before overheating, and doesn't take into account any boosters, implants or command bonuses. The moros you claim to be flown by a moron can easily tank 5.5M EHP with the right setup without heat and have enough cap to coast out of siege.

Yes, you can do the same to the phoenix and make it tank even more however at these kinds of numbers the moros is more than able to stay alive and its vastly superior damage output makes it the logical choice from that point on. Pure EHP is not everything and once you have gone over a threshold amount you can start looking elsewhere.

Would I suggest running a shield moros anywhere except a C5 or C6 pulsar? of course not. But in this particular part of eve the fitting is completely valid and acceptable, and a very scary ship to fly against if properly piloted.

Being locked to kin/therm is not really a problem - this moros is more than capable of blapping through support ships or tearing down enemy capital ships.

There is a *reason* you are finding so many of these when you go looking for your terrible losses - they are a viable and popular means of fitting this ship in these circumstances. There are reasons that wormhole corporations have almost unanimously chosen the moros over the phoenix in pulsar combat for anything other than structure grinding, which I'll grant you the phoenix is very good at doing. The phoenix is a *terrible* PvP dreadnaught, possibly the worst, and putting it in its element in a pulsar doesn't make it much better.

evehermit said...

While the Blockade runner might have had a silly death - it wasn't quite as stupid as that particular killboard. Look the highest prices - 7B for the T1 100MN MWD BPO? 1.1B for a T1 Medium rig BPO, 320M for another?

Druur Monakh said...

@Gevlon

Here's a simple question: if Phoenixes are so much superior - how come they don't show up on the Moros killmails?

I'd be happy to be shown wrong/inattentive, but a quick scan of the Moros kms you linked recently shows at best subcaps, carriers, and other Moroses as the attackers. Not Phoenixes.

Gevlon said...

Simple: people didn't learn Phoenixes (or Naflgars) and when they get into shield wormholes, they have to improvize, creating the abomination. It's like an armor Nidhoggur or Ragnarok in nullsec. They already had the ship and found themselves in an armor fleet.

The idiocy comes not at improvizing a shield Moros but blinging an improvized "better than nothing" abomination. It's like putting green and purple things on a cyno frig.

Anonymous said...

Simple: people didn't learn Phoenixes (or Naflgars) and when they get into shield wormholes, they have to improvize, creating the abomination. It's like an armor Nidhoggur or Ragnarok in nullsec. They already had the ship and found themselves in an armor fleet.

This is pure speculation at best. False consensus and argument from authority at worst. I can fly all 4 racial dreadnaughts with 2 of my pilots and I still chose a dedicated shield moros for Pulsar work (I keep a spare one in my POS next to my armor one). No refitting to shield as an improvation goes on at all.

We chose to fly expensive things because it works. Compare your T2 fit in a pulsar to the fit you have declared as "stupid" in the same pulsar system and you can see what a difference these modules make. It is well worth the extra couple of billion it costs to moderately 'pimp' this ship. It is not uncommon for wormhole dreadnaughts to be fit far more expensive than this.

The idiocy comes not at improvizing a shield Moros but blinging an improvized "better than nothing" abomination. It's like putting green and purple things on a cyno frig.

Nothing like it. I have already pointed out that the shield moros linked is a perfectly viable ship with 5.5m EHP under the right circumstances with more DPS than your phoenix.

The weight of evidence on the killboards suggest that in a pulsar the most killed dreadnaughts are moros', even on the side of the wormhole residents. Thats right, people who chose to live in C6 pulsars use the moros for their defense fleet. You would think if you were living there you would force people to cross train.....

So on the grounds that the fit is wrong you have been soundly defeated. On the grounds that people just "improvise a fit because they can" you have been defeated. On the grounds that people "pimp abominations" you are demonstrably wrong and a quick glance at pyfa or EFT will show you this. I therefore challenge you to provide a valid reason as to why one should fly a Phoenix in a pulsar over a moros for any other task than grinding structures. If you are unable to meet this challenge I request that you graciously admit that you are incorrect and stop calling out these shield moros' found dying in pulsars as being "terrible" when you clearly have no practical understanding of the topic.

Thank you.

(this may be roughly a double post - something went wrong when last I posted. My sincere apologies if it is a double up)

Gevlon said...

@Anonymous: you merely demonstrated that people fly shield moroses. That's not an evidence for them any more than "every women in Saudi Arabia wear nikab so it's the right thing to do".

Do you have ANY evidence supporting shield Moroses? Every calculation bring them out significantly below Phoenixes.

About the bling:
The T2 version of the linked Moros with siege warfare link and C6 Pulsar bonuses (using co-processor for fitting):
4.46M EHP
18.7K EHP rep
12.2K DPS
2:53 cap

5.30M EHP
21.6K EHP rep
14.2K DPS
3:13 cap

So 23% more EHP and 16% more DPS (42% better) for double price.
If he was an attacker, this can make some sense, but for a defender, dual-boxing T2 fits always beat 1 bling.

Anonymous said...

While I do agree that the average IQ of eve players is certainly not higher then that of WoW players. Dear gevlon you should learn to use EFT and especially the menu option: File->New DPS Graph. That is where you can go compare how 2 different setups work against for instance a structure or a battleship. Once you do that, you'll notice that a moros outperforms by 30% a phoenix against capital targets. Now take for instance a heavily webbed and painted battleship: the moros will easily outperform the phoenix by a factor 10. The thing is: the citadel torpedoes have such a large explosion radius and such a small explosion velocity that even against a heavily targetpainted and webbed battleship you lose a massive amount of damage. Damage loss that cannot be overcome by tricks gun users use. So, not only does the moros outperform the phoenix against subcaps. It outperforms the phoenix by an increadibly large margin.

Anonymous said...

@Anonymous: you merely demonstrated that people fly shield moroses. That's not an evidence for them any more than "every women in Saudi Arabia wear nikab so it's the right thing to do".

different Anonymous here.

And what you are doing is the equivalent of telling all Saudi women to leave their nikab at home - only to be surprised when skin cancer rates skyrocket a decade later.

If there is one thing that the last 50 years of sociology and anthropology have taught us then that it is often the best approach to start by asking yourself "Why is a good idea?".

The flaws and shortfalls are usually trivial to find but the benefits and reasonings are often hidden and non-obvious - all too often they only become clear once has already been made impossible by ambitious reforms (which then don't work out the way they should have as an important piece of the puzzle was attributed to "natives are uneducated, superstitious and stupid" and thus completely overlooked).

Anonymous said...

The evidence I have for shield the shield Moros is that they are used, almost universally, for PvP in pulsars (and PvE for that matter).

23% extra ehp for double the price doesn't sound 'great' but it does make the moros viable. The selection here is not for its "godlike" tank, it is for its "godlike" DPS. Everything about the fit is about getting the DPS of a moros on the battlefield...damn the costs. The 'purple' fit gets it over the EHP threshold in order to make it survive an attack from multiple capital ships to give it the maximum amount of time on the field to apply that DPS.

Remember the goal here is just to survive a single siege cycle of 5 minutes - 5.54 million EHP on the fit that bitit lost requires the enemy to throw down over 16k DPS before you take into account the local rep before they will take the moros down. After that it is all academic as long as you have rep on the field. you can see by this that above a threshold tank DPS is more important in the battle.

Your EFT warrioring does not factor in reality - your phoenix has impressive volleys but way to much wait time between them. Couple that with the fact that it is useless against a capital ship's number one predator (namely neut boats) because capital missiles are absolutely useless at hitting anything other than another capital....

A web supported moros will be able to blap the neuts off the field and then spend the rest of its time chewing on and spitting out phoenixes. The phoenix will be capped out, and out of the fight because of its inability to quickly deal with hostile neutralizers.

You are making a rookie mistake here - oooing and aaaaing over EFT loadouts. The fact of the matter is that the superior pulsar PvP dreadnaught is the Shield tanking Moros. They may not appear to be "on paper" (although you seem utterly obsessed with tank, in every other meaningful way the Moros takes the phoenix to school)


Can I get your admission of being incorrect now, and the correction of the half dozen or so posts where you laughed from on high at these "morons" who are actually doing it right?

Gevlon said...

I do NOT question that a Moros outperform a Phoneix killing subcaps. I'm questioning that it outperforms it in killing enemy shield Moroses. EVE ships are pretty much rock-paper-scizzors. I also question that it makes sense blinging it.

Next anonymous: you know what, you are right in one thing: the Shield Moros must have SOME intelligent reason to exist. So anyone fitting it is maybe wrong (sub-optimal) but not stupid. I remove the shield moros from the post and will no longer rally against them.

Anonymous said...

I struggle to understand why you are so against pimping?

I'd have thought that you of all people would favor a zero compromise, gain every advantage imaginable fitting?

Gevlon said...

I'm for optimal solutions. I would spend the same money wiser by having more accounts.

Anonymous said...

Yes but NOT pimping is sub optimal, can't you see that? you may only get 20% more on a capital ship by pimping but you are starting from a much larger base. That 20% is another *million hit points*.. or 2 battleships worth of buffer.

Similar stories for the mag stabs and so forth.

If you
1) have the money to spend
2) don't care because you can honestly make more money than god in a wormhole
3) can give yourself a massive advantage by fitting this way

why wouldn't you?

Basically in wormholes we have a name for people who *don't* pimp their stuff. They are called scrubs. They usually die. Quickly.

Gevlon said...

But why not spend your money on another account and have 2x firepower and 2x HP

Anonymous said...

The more accounts you have the easier it is to make dumb mistakes, if it's a serious fight you don't want to be consistently alt-tabbing.

Anonymous said...

partly because of mass limitations in wormholes Gevlon. Each roll of a C6 will only allow 3 capitals across it. Whilst 2 capitals is better than 1 of course, getting the most out of your capitals as possible is paramount. The same goes for your whole fleet.

Sure if you could get unlimited ships in...but if you can only be certain that you'll get 3 in and not be able to chain collapse to the target again in time, surely you want your very best value for those 3?

Wormhole PvP is just ... different. You need to unlearn what you have learned.

Ennor Odunen said...

The 5B Mach looks suspiciously like an Incursion fit.

Anonymous said...

By the way, there is something i don't get: What do you mean by 'JFs in wardeccable corp'? You need to have your JF in a player corp if you want to dock at friendly outposts. You just don't fly them through highsec when wardecced?! Why say 'wardeccable' instead of 'wardecced'?

Gevlon said...

If it's wardeccable, it's soon wardecced. Dock it up in lowsec (cyno it to the docking ring) and enter highsec with a normal freighter or (if you are very-very rich a neutral JF)

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