Several communities have nasty language or "pranks": college fraternities, certain forums and several MMO guilds find it normal to call members "niggers", "faggots", refer to PvP as "raping" or "fucking", calling females as "bitches" or "cunts" or even commit nonverbal harassing acts like pushing their heads to toilets or intentional friendly fire in games.
When someone complains, their answer is "HTFU": "harden the fuck up", meaning that one should be a tough guy (like them) and accept this treatment as a form of friendly bonding. They vehemently reject that their behavior is harmful, they claim that they encourage everyone else to threat everyone the same way. They claim to believe in a kind of spartan society where everyone is tough with everyone in order to keep each other in a combat-ready state to smash our enemies when the time comes.
People usually don't follow their advice. Instead of HTFU, they follow one of the two common responses. One is quitting or turning hostile to the organization, this case the person is either considered weak or simply "did not belong here". The other is silent obedience, trying to get out of their sight and hope that after the "necessary" initiation period they find new targets to harass and leave them alone. So the "HTFU" approach remains undisputed and at least the theoretical chance join them as equal due to "harden the fuck up" is believed to be there. To disprove HTFU one has to indeed do as suggested "take the hazing as a man" and still not be accepted.
After joining TEST I started to participate on their forums. I was probably ignorant to many game mechanics and accepted doctrines but hey, it's the alliance that wears "bad at EVE" as a badge, what can go wrong? So I posted what I believed both in comments and in new threads. Soon I started to draw - not criticism and disagreement - but hostile responses. I mean they did not even try to offer arguments just some "funny" picture or the kind suggestion to "shut the fuck up", maybe with some labels like "publord", "shitlord" and "faggot" or the legendary "kill yourself".
This was the time when the theoretical advice of "HTFU" was put to the test. No, not purposefully, I did not see the importance of that. I am simply naturally immune to social effects and considered them random idiots. After all 20K people were allowed to post on those forums (TEST and blues), so having a few dozen drunkens, braindeads and trolls is normal. However as time went on, this behavior just worsened. At first they responded this way only to things they disagreed with, later they dug out every post I made, even totally technical ones and started their own ones for no other reason than express their hate. Yet, I kept posting without minding them. I did not throw them insulting replies, just ignored them and kept posting whatever was on my mind. By then I was already labeled the worst/best troll TEST ever had despite you wouldn't find my post trolling. I mean how much trolling lies in the question "Do you know who is Cha Ching PLC?" (a non-blue alliance living in near proximity). Please note that I just said you would find my posts technical, on-topic and non-trolling, I did not say that I was unaware that this harmless-looking question will indeed infuriate them, nor that I did not wish it.
This went on until the point I post my findings about TEST culture here on the blog. I wrote that they are effective because their automatic and bureaucratic system distances the simple member from the obnoxious and bossy people polluting every social space. They were celebrating in a 100+ comment thread. What did they celebrate? That I finally quit. That I was weak like the others. They even gave me a special in-game title "paid 60b to get trolled out of TEST and probably EVE". When I clarified that I never intended to quit, merely expected to be kicked over calling the small-corp leaderships useless, they were very upset.
The "shut the fuck up publord" one-liners, "kill yourself" comments and other niceties became much-more frequent than before, but still with no effect. OK, that's not exactly true, I started to look at them as forum tears and started to word my posts in a way to harvest maximum amount of those. I started to brag about my downvote status. I was the living example of "HTFU", the guy who isn't simply remain unbroken by "friendly pushings" but actively participate in these "acts of spartan friendship".
However the "HTFU" guys were not so happy. Besides becoming less and less original, they started to demand me to change my destructive behavior and inform me that I'm offensive and harmful. My favorite topic was the one where I suggested to use the existing stratops-announcer so people can participate. This topic was probably my only with net positive votes: it was so popular that my hating "fanbase" couldn't cast enough downvotes. Here they explicitly told that while the idea itself is good, I introduced it in an insensitive way that could cause the people feel that "I'm talking down to them" or "consider myself smarter than them". The same people accused me insensitivity who wrote "kill yourself faggot" half an hour ago! When I replied with "HTFU", they weren't happy at all. It seems they find their own medicine bitter!
This went on for a few more weeks: I posted something that an outsider would consider technical and on-topic (maybe ignorant but still harmless), they spammed insults in a more and more desperate way. These people had a status within the alliance and by openly ignoring their bully I questioned that. Even the most harmless technical post of mine was a "the king is naked" exclamation. I wasn't among the cool kids who were allowed to speak and yet I did! As a new color the fan-of-fan emerged, these posters did not support me but expressed amusement on the misery of my "fans" with comments like "You couldn't silence Gevlon by writing "shut the fuck up publord" 1000x, and now you hope that the 1001.th will work?" Forum moderators wrote "hahaha, you can't imagine how many idiots report Gevlon as offensive instead of just ignoring him".
Finally, when no less man then Montolio, the alliance leader realized that there is no amount of insults and hateposts can make me ragequit or even scale down posting (actually it made me scale up), I was kicked.
So no, HTFU isn't even a theoretical chance. Being insulting, racist, sexist isn't a form of bonding. It's an offensive act that is aimed to force someone into obedience or to display power. "HTFU" is merely a form of damage control, it's a lie claiming that their behavior is OK. They know it's not OK and if anyone else does it to them, they aren't happy. If you refuse to be bullied into obedience or ragequit, they won't accept you as an equal as they promised but try to bully you harder and if that fails they quit defeated. By kicking me Montolio protected his staff that pays their privilege to be assholes by slave-work. If he didn't kick me, this collection of obnoxious idiots would have ragequit over their inability to make me ragequit. He couldn't afford them ragequit as someone has to process the reimbursement forms, fuel the towers and welp fleets faster than self-destruct or the alliance stops functioning.
If you see "friendly pushing" like that, you can do two things only. One is flying under the radar, disappearing from their eyes. TEST is a perfect place for that due to its size. If you don't speak on the forum or in fleet chat, they will never notice you. The other is quiting. You can't make them accept you as equal (not to mention why do you want to be an equal to someone who calls people "nigger faggots").
When someone complains, their answer is "HTFU": "harden the fuck up", meaning that one should be a tough guy (like them) and accept this treatment as a form of friendly bonding. They vehemently reject that their behavior is harmful, they claim that they encourage everyone else to threat everyone the same way. They claim to believe in a kind of spartan society where everyone is tough with everyone in order to keep each other in a combat-ready state to smash our enemies when the time comes.
People usually don't follow their advice. Instead of HTFU, they follow one of the two common responses. One is quitting or turning hostile to the organization, this case the person is either considered weak or simply "did not belong here". The other is silent obedience, trying to get out of their sight and hope that after the "necessary" initiation period they find new targets to harass and leave them alone. So the "HTFU" approach remains undisputed and at least the theoretical chance join them as equal due to "harden the fuck up" is believed to be there. To disprove HTFU one has to indeed do as suggested "take the hazing as a man" and still not be accepted.
After joining TEST I started to participate on their forums. I was probably ignorant to many game mechanics and accepted doctrines but hey, it's the alliance that wears "bad at EVE" as a badge, what can go wrong? So I posted what I believed both in comments and in new threads. Soon I started to draw - not criticism and disagreement - but hostile responses. I mean they did not even try to offer arguments just some "funny" picture or the kind suggestion to "shut the fuck up", maybe with some labels like "publord", "shitlord" and "faggot" or the legendary "kill yourself".
This was the time when the theoretical advice of "HTFU" was put to the test. No, not purposefully, I did not see the importance of that. I am simply naturally immune to social effects and considered them random idiots. After all 20K people were allowed to post on those forums (TEST and blues), so having a few dozen drunkens, braindeads and trolls is normal. However as time went on, this behavior just worsened. At first they responded this way only to things they disagreed with, later they dug out every post I made, even totally technical ones and started their own ones for no other reason than express their hate. Yet, I kept posting without minding them. I did not throw them insulting replies, just ignored them and kept posting whatever was on my mind. By then I was already labeled the worst/best troll TEST ever had despite you wouldn't find my post trolling. I mean how much trolling lies in the question "Do you know who is Cha Ching PLC?" (a non-blue alliance living in near proximity). Please note that I just said you would find my posts technical, on-topic and non-trolling, I did not say that I was unaware that this harmless-looking question will indeed infuriate them, nor that I did not wish it.
This went on until the point I post my findings about TEST culture here on the blog. I wrote that they are effective because their automatic and bureaucratic system distances the simple member from the obnoxious and bossy people polluting every social space. They were celebrating in a 100+ comment thread. What did they celebrate? That I finally quit. That I was weak like the others. They even gave me a special in-game title "paid 60b to get trolled out of TEST and probably EVE". When I clarified that I never intended to quit, merely expected to be kicked over calling the small-corp leaderships useless, they were very upset.
The "shut the fuck up publord" one-liners, "kill yourself" comments and other niceties became much-more frequent than before, but still with no effect. OK, that's not exactly true, I started to look at them as forum tears and started to word my posts in a way to harvest maximum amount of those. I started to brag about my downvote status. I was the living example of "HTFU", the guy who isn't simply remain unbroken by "friendly pushings" but actively participate in these "acts of spartan friendship".
However the "HTFU" guys were not so happy. Besides becoming less and less original, they started to demand me to change my destructive behavior and inform me that I'm offensive and harmful. My favorite topic was the one where I suggested to use the existing stratops-announcer so people can participate. This topic was probably my only with net positive votes: it was so popular that my hating "fanbase" couldn't cast enough downvotes. Here they explicitly told that while the idea itself is good, I introduced it in an insensitive way that could cause the people feel that "I'm talking down to them" or "consider myself smarter than them". The same people accused me insensitivity who wrote "kill yourself faggot" half an hour ago! When I replied with "HTFU", they weren't happy at all. It seems they find their own medicine bitter!
This went on for a few more weeks: I posted something that an outsider would consider technical and on-topic (maybe ignorant but still harmless), they spammed insults in a more and more desperate way. These people had a status within the alliance and by openly ignoring their bully I questioned that. Even the most harmless technical post of mine was a "the king is naked" exclamation. I wasn't among the cool kids who were allowed to speak and yet I did! As a new color the fan-of-fan emerged, these posters did not support me but expressed amusement on the misery of my "fans" with comments like "You couldn't silence Gevlon by writing "shut the fuck up publord" 1000x, and now you hope that the 1001.th will work?" Forum moderators wrote "hahaha, you can't imagine how many idiots report Gevlon as offensive instead of just ignoring him".
Finally, when no less man then Montolio, the alliance leader realized that there is no amount of insults and hateposts can make me ragequit or even scale down posting (actually it made me scale up), I was kicked.
So no, HTFU isn't even a theoretical chance. Being insulting, racist, sexist isn't a form of bonding. It's an offensive act that is aimed to force someone into obedience or to display power. "HTFU" is merely a form of damage control, it's a lie claiming that their behavior is OK. They know it's not OK and if anyone else does it to them, they aren't happy. If you refuse to be bullied into obedience or ragequit, they won't accept you as an equal as they promised but try to bully you harder and if that fails they quit defeated. By kicking me Montolio protected his staff that pays their privilege to be assholes by slave-work. If he didn't kick me, this collection of obnoxious idiots would have ragequit over their inability to make me ragequit. He couldn't afford them ragequit as someone has to process the reimbursement forms, fuel the towers and welp fleets faster than self-destruct or the alliance stops functioning.
If you see "friendly pushing" like that, you can do two things only. One is flying under the radar, disappearing from their eyes. TEST is a perfect place for that due to its size. If you don't speak on the forum or in fleet chat, they will never notice you. The other is quiting. You can't make them accept you as equal (not to mention why do you want to be an equal to someone who calls people "nigger faggots").
30 comments:
Great job. Your post didn't come off whiny nor did it sound like the normal liberal tree hugging crowd trying to force you to "just love everyone".
Unfortunately the HTFU crowd is becoming all to prevalent in online games. Your point is well put; they don't want you to be an equal in their group and just ignoring them to fit-in will not work. Standing up to the 'new age' bully will have the same effect it did in so long ago, cause them to scream until they quit in a rage.
I have been waiting for this post a long time, because it was bound to come one day.
You do realize that you are not very different on your own blog, do you? You insult groups of people because you consider their way of play/lifestyle inferior to yours, generally considering all of them idiots/morons/slackers/whatever based on incomplete or biased theories that you have only validated from your point of view often ignoring the more experienced comments about your previous posts.
This may be attributed to your use of the English language for one part and your "social immunity" on the other side making you incapable of seeing this, but you do "come off" and are perceived as ignorant of other people opinions and blindly insulting "everyone". Examples can be found all over your blog, just take a step back and you'll see for yourself.
My point is: Even as technical as your blog posts may be, you very often write in a style that shows the same way of disrespect to others than those "bulls" you point out in your post above.
I'm not saying that is a bad thing, but it is a fact. And if your forum posts were in any way similar to your blog posts, it is understandable what happened.
And no, there's not that large of a difference between insulting someone as a "faggot", "moron" or "mate". It's a matter of perception and respect. Also, a flawed theory and a few samples are no better excuse than no theory and no samples at all.
Example: You call people stupid on their actions. I can assure you there are highly intelligent people that do a lot of stupid things. That doesn't make them idiots. I can recall a certain Ragnarok (later silently replaced by an Avatar)- Fitting I saw somewhere. It was a stupid thing to do, doesn't mean the person is stupid, or do you disagree?
The big difference between them and me is that I always provide a theory about a certain point. They contributed nothing to ANY point they merely try to insult me.
With a simple example:
- X says "let's fly beam laser Rokhs"
- They say: "X you are an idiot stop posting"
- I say: "Rokhs have no bonuses to lasers, anyone fitting a laser Rokh is an idiot"
@Gevlon
'Being insulting, racist, sexist isn't a form of bonding. It's an offensive act that is aimed to force someone into obedience or to display power. "HTFU" is merely a form of damage control, it's a lie claiming that their behavior is OK.'
However according to the code you are now agreeing to
'- Keep local clean. Miners should be courteous in local and should refrain from the use of profanity.'
Please note this applies to miners only the New Order can swear and use as much profanity as they want. The now includes you Gevlon. Perhaps you should try and get this changed to 'everyone' rather than just support exceptions of your Fouled Mouthed Order.
@Bobbins: that's clearly on my list.
"- I say: "Rokhs have no bonuses to lasers, anyone fitting a laser Rokh is an idiot"
I'm sorry, if you find that you offering a helping hand at the same time you put the person down is not bullying/"same as those other guys", you are fooling yourself.
You think that you have a free pass to put people down because you offered something back? That may work in your concious, but that does not take you out of the sociopath basket.
@Garlain: you miss the very point: laser Rokhs are indeed stupid, fit by stupid people.
Let me further simplify:
- I say: if you do stupid, you are stupid
- They say: you are stupid period.
This is where bluntness and insulting behavior begin to merge into a gray zone depending on interpretation. Social niceties exist because they help us communicate and avoid insult with people we do not have a social or emotional relationship with but must still work with.
While the laser rokh may be stupid and the person stupid the word usage and the blunt Calling out of the thought or choice as stupid or idiotic can be as insulting and emotionally harmful as the handful of slurs above.
While you are focused on the fact of the issue many others gather on the usage. Stupid/idiot was not needed when a more neutral or polite choice could have been made. You are not bothered by their usage of insults to you but others can not see the forest for the trees in your word usage. Thus causes a rift in communication.
How you say it matters as much as what you are saying because you can inadvertently create roadblocks in your communication. It is as simple as saying g to someone that you care about them even when all of your actions show it.
Some people are going to be so put off by the word usage that your information becomes lost. That is what causes some of the co Stanton rebuttal about you being abusive in your treatment of some groups.
You go "But they are stupid so I said what is simple fact"
Others hear only insults being said.
You may not care but it does dictate your audiences response.
Those who say "HTFU" rarely want people to. It is more that they want you to GTFO their little corner of the internet and let them play with their toys in peace.
The woman who wanted to make a series of videos about portrayal of women in video games got a whole load of shit from random internet idiots (whether you agree with her idea or not is not the point, the response she got was way out of proportion)
There are many examples of this infantile behaviour, and yes, it is infantile, if the only response you have to an argument is ad hominem, or some puerile comment, then you are acting like an infant.
Excellent post with lots of real life applications.
This is the very reason why I avoid most people.
About the
"If you do stupid you are stupid"
vs
"you are stupid either way"
I've seen people pick on that, and they're somewhat right.
Everyone do stupid things - SOME PEOPLE MORE THAN OTHERS, OF COURSE - but the thing is, how does this work?
Equation:
"You do stupid thing = you are stupid"
Ok, for how much time? Forever? 24 hour periods? Until mistake is corrected?
Maybe he was just ignorant. Maybe he didn't find the information (I don't know if it was available). Note that some games (GW2) don't have Elitist Jerks ressources and I had to discuss what I wanted to do with a player from the guild I am in, even so like Gevlon, I don't like guild socializing. Even so, it served it's purpose.
Anyway, what if he, elsewhere, he does things that makes him considered smart? Does this balance this out?
I get this is only considering the game since you lack the information of his behaviour elsewhere. In this regard, you're right.
To be honest, if it was me, I don't give a damn. I'm like you, and most likely I didn't know or made a mistake. Sometimes you don't always have ressources for builds and need to learn it the hard way.
Sometimes, you WANT to avoid ressources and learn it the hard way, trying things out. Does that make you stupid, if that's how you enjoy a game?
I don't know about laser fitted rokhs and how clear it is they are bad though.
Gevlon, I forgot this:
http://alphagameplan.blogspot.ca/2012/12/an-excursion-into-rhetorical.html
In addition, this doesn't apply only to "rethorical" and "dialectic". The main message from that link is "communicate in the most effective way considering the person in front of you and what you want them to do".
Like Sugar Kyle said, not adding an insult (or the sentence "anyone doing so is X) after a neutral response may cause better results.
Only stupid people communicate in ways other won't understand.
See what I did there?
@Jack: mostly "until fix stupid". I also thought stupid things (titan with point) but I improved since then. I no longer believe that stupid so I'm no longer that stupid.
I disagree that being nice is effective. Don't forget that the standard response of a social to his mistake is "bad luck lol". You have to make him face that he did stupid and he shouldn't do that.
The "bully guys" isn't communicating in a mean WAY (they have a message that they convey in an unfriendly manner), but they are communicating a mean MESSAGE. They say "you are below us, obey us". You can't say that in a nice way even if you wanted to.
I didn't mean being nice worked better. I meant not adding an insulting word (from their point of view, not matter how messed it may be be).
There's a difference between the two.
A common refrain in parenting books (and a lot of what you try to do is parenting) is that actions are good or bad, not people. You get the message across (laser rokhs are a stupid choice) without commenting at all on the person making the choice. This makes it clear that the action is the problem, and that changing that action immediately solves the problem.
I told you this when you started playing EVE: The mark you set will stick. People will consider you (insert opinion here) because that was the impression you have made on this blog. It is not easily reversable and will stick with you for a long time in EVE.
Just listen how you are percieved. It doesn't matter socially, but hinders your future development. You should have accounted for that.
Some examples:
You were trolled from TEST and even paid for it.
You are the LOLFIT Titan wannabe pilot.
You can't do anything but play 0.01 games.
Having you in an Alliance means drama.
You insult people without knowing what you are talking about.
You backstab people into revealing their information by playing stupid.
Etc. Etc.
It's all out there. True? Probably not, but the Truth matters little in EVE. The consequences however, will.
You offended the carebears, the WH dwellers, the Bittervets, the F1 monkeys and you will receive the bill for this.
I'm not saying you did anything wrong, but you were able to forsee this, and it was avoidable.
The only thing left is to learn and adapt. Not being nice, that is crap. It's about efficiency of what you are capable of. And stripping the occasional "stupid" or M&S from your posts would help at that. It's not a social thing, but a smart thing. When educating people you have to speak their language to make them understand, because what you are trying to say will sound like gibberish to them otherwise.
I always wondered why you never used the most fomidable weapon you have against them: Learning to adapt and then break the M&S free after they have accepted you.
A smart trainer becomes part of the pack before teaching it.
@anonymous 18:10. That's a very good description to what I meant in my wall of text.
I would endorse such a Goblin product.
And possibly give it a platform as well.
Depending on how it turns, I might come forward to Gevlon should I get the impression he is able to pull it off. Not by offering Sov. or Shinies, but with an Alliance where his words and actions matter
@Gevlon Don't forget that the standard response of a social to his mistake is "bad luck lol".
Hmm, I have to tell the socials I consort with to get with the program. They are still responding with "what could I have done differently".
(In small words: your bias against socials prevents you from seeing them as they actually are)
I despise Test for how it has corrupted the idea of the site I love, Reddit. Reddit is an open, free for all system of exchanging ideas. The sign up screen is a single pop-up, not even it's own page.
Now look at Test. Ridiculously auto-cratic with a clusterfuck of rules, sign up is near impossible for new comers who didn't join in the glory days.
Test is the anti-reddit.
Why did you let the haters get to you?
If I were you, I would have played the yes man until I was in a position of power and then robbed TEST blind.
@Garlain: you miss the very point: laser Rokhs are indeed stupid, fit by stupid people.
Actually, you miss the point, Gevlon. The "fit by stupid people" is an entirely superfluous part of that sentence, its only purpose meant to be "an offensive act that is aimed to force someone into obedience or to display power." You are not just correcting an error or questioning the logic of laser Rokhs, you are actively demeaning and bullying the other person for... well, only you can answer for what end. If I were being charitable, I'd say you are trying to shock them into doing more research before making (bad) suggestions. Alternatively, you are trying to establish that you are smart and they are dumb therefore they should listen to you in all things.
As a professed creature of logic, surely you can see the bullying tactics at work in your own writing, how your posts are frequently the other side of the same HTFU coin? Logic and reason stand on their own. If someone suggests laser Rohks, the proper response is "Rohks receive no bonus to lasers," with an elaboration on what weapons would be good on Rohks or on which ship lasers would be appropriate, if you wanted to actually be helpful. Claiming they are stupid people for making stupid suggestions simply makes them less likely to make any suggestions, just like if you called them a faggot instead.
I disagree that being nice is effective. Don't forget that the standard response of a social to his mistake is "bad luck lol". You have to make him face that he did stupid and he shouldn't do that.
Which is different from the HTFU troll... how, exactly? You are both doing the same thing: attempting to change behavior through insults.
The "bully guys" isn't communicating in a mean WAY (they have a message that they convey in an unfriendly manner), but they are communicating a mean MESSAGE. They say "you are below us, obey us". You can't say that in a nice way even if you wanted to.
There is no difference between the two, as the results are the same. You aren't educating anyone by calling them a moron, you are browbeating them into accepting your line of reasoning wholesale. You are appealing to their social desire to not look bad in front of peers. While this can result in behavioral changes, it is not because you taught them to think for themselves anymore than the HTFU victims learned anything from the abuse other than to be quiet and get used to it.
Great post. I'm tired of the internet "hard men" on eve just spewing out this kind of random hate. Women, gay people, non-white people, jew, anything that is different to them will be used as an insult.
It's puerile in the extreame.
For the comments that accuse Goblin of the same kind of insults, have at look at what he is saying. He is criticising people for their actions and choices, not who they are. Big difference.
Yes, he is arrogant at times, but heck, I can choose not to read his blog if I don't like it, what he is talking about is different.
Have a great new year Goblin, and keep writing!
You are conflating two completely different things in this post.
The first is what you experienced:
Alice: [Unpopular opinion]
Bob: Kill yourself, faggot jew
The desirable outcome for Bob is the following:
Alice: Your hateful comments have caused me to stop voicing my opinions and/or leave.
Bob: Good
Whereas what happened in your case was:
Alice: I will continue voicing my opinions despite the apparent thanklessness of the task.
Bob: Fucknuggets
Bob does not want Alice to HTFU, as such a thing would be counterproductive to his goal of silencing her/driving her off. At no point would he encourage Alice to do so, unless he's retarded (spoiler alert: many people are).
The second case is the actual use of HTFU:
Alice: Hell yeah, I raped the fuck out of those botting ice miners!
Bob: I am offended by your use of a word I personally consider taboo
Alice: HTFU
The desirable outcome for alice is the following:
Bob: *hardens the fuck up*
Alice: Guess what, I raped some more bots today
Bob: Nice work, mate
Alice&Bob: *fistbump*
The undesirable outcome is simply an infinite repetition of the first exchange.
Hello Gevlon,
it has now been quite a while since you started playing this wonderful game, and when you started blogging about eve i was expecting alot of great posts on your blog.
Rather than going for the logical approach, seeing that you find your way to an "elite" alliance, people who actually work on learning the game mechanics, and being good at the game you connected quite fast with the idea that test/goons are a good side to join.
Back then people where telling you about test/goon culture, about their behaviour, about their smacktalk, about their lack of respect, and about how terrible they are, and you where like "but they are so big, they must be efficient" and so you put yourself in a culture of insecure kiddies that get hard by the notion you might be hit by their petty little words.
So, how come you seem suprised about their behaviour? That kind of smack was to be expected, infact you provoked it.
Now as to your posts, and how much they are on topic, are they? It is easy for you to claim they are, and probably you feel like they are, but for example asking about a neutral alliance? how's that on any topic, if that alliance had any relevance towards test, they would have positive or negative standings.
"suggesting" the use of the stratops announcer? who are you again? a random new guy with a blog, no leadership, its not up to you to make such "suggestions", so yes, you are indeed talking down to people there.
I give you, as someone who tends to ignore social aspects might not be able to comprehend fully how your posts and your behaviour work and effect people in a social context. But hey, it was you who decided to join one of the alliances that are known for having an established community, and therefor a social protocol (which you broke).
Bragging about downvotes? thats like telling a bully that his punch hurt you. You say you refused being bullied, however all of your reactions in the complete process showed that those guys actually got to you.
HTFU doesn't mean "act like those guys", it means "shut up, suck it up, and focus on whats important", you find it funny how many reported you as offensive instead of ignoring you? but in your way, thats exactly what you did. in both cases, to you and to them, a bit htfu would actually help.
Maybe, just maybe you should have looked into an alliance which is closer to your mindset, instead of burning your name by joining test/goons.
Fwiw I've read many of Gevlon's posts on the Test forums. They're often similar to posts he has written here, for example the high value high effective hit point cargo Tengu.
There's no question that his posts attracted a lot of unproductive trolling. However his posting style encouraged that trolling.
For example someone replied and used the phrase "600 million isk." Gevlon told him he should have said 0.6 billion isk, implying he's a noob for thinking in millions. Naturally that completely derailed the thread and antagonised the community. It was classic trolling.
I do think there are problems with posting dry informative technical posts on the internet (as I often do). If you juice it up with provocative elements people will comment and retweet your post - but not really for the right reasons. It's a posting style that has worked great for this blog but one that makes it much harder to integrate into a community.
You might be better off, Gevlon, starting your own corp and joining a coalition in nullsec if null is where you'd like to be. You will always be a problem to any corp that needs members to tow the line (as to a lesser extent I am).
@anon at 08.32. reread, you've missed the point. And ad hominem against Test/Goons doens't help your case.
that's a great post.
I firmly disagree with almost 100% of Gevlon's philosophy.
But I've kept reading him for literally years, because when he;s right, he's so right.
And his obvious lack of a need to dress up your comments in faff, mean that the message is so much clearer.
I'd congratulate him , but I reckon he wouldn;t care...
One connection regarding topic that hasn't been explicitly made within the span of the comments is this.
You can tell a person acting stupidly that what you perceive to be his actions are conflicting with what you perceive to be their goals, but still not get them corrected. In other words, just telling someone that he is doing something wrong is not guaranteed to have any impact.
This happens, because what you think they are doing "e.g. being stupid by flying a beam laser Rokh" is not the same thing they think they are doing "e.g. being smart about finding a use of Rokh they perceive as productive".
This obviously ties into goals, because "smart / stupid" is only defined in relation to the goal. Whereas a person considering someone stupid for flying a Rokh with laser has the combat optimisation goal in mind, the one actually flying a Rokh with laser might have another goal in mind.
When there is a disconnect between the understanding of goals (and, by proxy, of understanding the nature of what's actually being done), any attempt to point out that what you think is being done doesn't work towards what you think is the goal will fall flat. Because that's not what is being done and that's not the goal.
Calling people stupid allows to somehow circumvent this problem in a few very specific cases. Specifically, the person in question needs to put at least some value on your version of the goal, and at least some value on your opinion of him. Given both of these conditions, a positive scenario can be realised.
In terms of TEST trolls, though, it seems at least one, or both of these conditions, were problematic.
P.S: HTFU is not a lie. It is a "become like us" message, which can be translated as "submit to us", if you equate becoming like someone else to submission.
@Maxim: while I cannot know ones goals, I can assume some reasonable goals to exist like self-preservation. Someone acting against self-preservation is more or less an idiot by definition.
A laser Rokh in a PvP situation is a dead Rokh. One can have a laser Rokh in a safe situation and not be stupid (he is in a new years eve lasershow event), in a combat situation everyone must optimize for combat or he acts against self-preservation.
On your stance of:
I disagree that being nice is effective. Don't forget that the standard response of a social to his mistake is "bad luck lol". You have to make him face that he did stupid and he shouldn't do that.
I'd say this is highly situational. I feel like you are trying to avoid "being nice for the sake of being nice", but instead you go a step too far and act "not nice for the sake of acting not nice" to preserve your image or something like that.
"Acting nice" can be highly beneficial for various situations, such as if you have to work with a random stranger in order to reach a common short-term goal. Assuming the chance of working with this exact person again is small, the benefits of making this stranger cooperate more easily by "acting nice" may be well worth it.
Thinking about it - this may not necessarily apply to Eve (I do not play Eve). So, my response is probably a bit out of context.
I read your postings, often they were good, sometimes they were stupid, occasionally they were shit, just like anyone else's on the TEST board.
I do not know when exactly it happened, but at some point people started to switch from being funny and little rude to being outright assholes for the sole purpose of being mean and nothing more.
HTFU was the advice that they should have listened to and put up with the fact that somebody did not run away just because people stepped over the line. Instead, to the untrained eye, it looked as if some people took the fact that you kept posting personal and made it their agenda to proof their power by trying to make you leave.
I miss the postings, the ruthless pointing out things that are stupid, unfair or obviously not working without regards for pissing people off, sometimes being right, sometimes being wrong, always being relevant and on a topic that should be discussed.
I wished the TEST forum would have HTFU'd and dealed with it, instead of this ending but i guess people got to be people.
Sometimes i regret encouraging you to never stop posting - seems that did not work out in the end. I figured people would come around, they did not.
I am confused. I truly am. You handled this TEST situation like an idiot.
You play the internet game well. You know how to get in the spotlights, get your blog a massive amount of visitors. One of your strengths is that you agitate people with their style, making them feel down because they are with your logic inefficient or bad, while wanting social validation. Some choose to cope with it by insulting you (in return). It gives you a lot of haters, who have nothing better to do than to hate you and want to hate you for something new. It creates a lot of internet buzz and viewers. One of the other strengths is that you sometimes give insightful posts about mechanics (although some are just stupid). Which creates a vicious cycle because of your writing style.
You showed people that they were bad for failing in ICC (with the blue gear project) and you managed to get kicked by TEST because you posted on forums following their rules (with a different opinion). By kicking they admit that they are not tolerating their behavior from people who do not follow their social rules, which makes them intolerable hypocrites.
By doing both these things you probably generated a lot of visitors for your blog. Which is great and all, but it is only a blog.
If you had played these situation correctly you could have earned 1000-10000 euros through donations and ad revenue.
If you use other mediums that provide ad revenue you could also reach new people, who generally won't visit blogs.
Accepting donations creates more loyal 'fans', especially if you use the donations (the comments) as medium to communicate with you.
The money would actually provide benefits in real life. You missed out twice already. Something which is unexpected of a 'goblin'.
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