Greedy Goblin

Friday, August 3, 2012

"Good fight" and "EVE is real" are mutually exclusive

"Good fight" is often written to local chat. Roams go out searching for "good fights". RvB exists to provide perpetual good fights. There is nothing wrong with "good fights". PvP games are games that are meant to be fun to participants. I played several PvP games, most relevantly HL-CS during the university. While we played competitively and "for the win" it didn't stop us from enjoying the game or honestly respecting the opposing team (assuming they did not suck).

"Good fight" means you enjoyed the match regardless the outcome. The gameplay was immersive, provided flow, tested and honed your skills. You don't have to introduce "good fight" to me, been there, done that, loved it, but outgrown it.

Can you imagine a platoon of US soldiers and a group of Talib insurgents exchanging "good fight" on twitter after a combat? Even if no one died, even if the encounter was immersive, tested their skills to the limit, provided them the sense of individual proficiency and gained them rewards from their superiors, can you imagine that either group has any positive feelings toward the other? Or would cops and criminals exchange "gf" or "gg" after a drug raid? Or let's just go to professional sports. Look at the face of the guys who just lost the match, the gold medal they worked so hard for many years. Do you see "gg bro" feelings on it?

"Good fight" means you enjoyed the match regardless the outcome. What would you call a US soldier (or a Talib) who can't care less who wins in Afghanistan as long as he has his adrenaline rush? (let me help, the words you looking for are "traitor" and "psychopath")

You don't have to introduce "good fight" to me. You have to explain what the hell good fights are doing in EVE. If "EVE is real", the conflict is real. Hulkageddon was real, (exhumer changes "fixed" it) as the miner did not want to be ganked. His tears were real. My enjoyment when I got in Jita with a billion worth of cargo during Burn Jita was real: I broke the 1B profit/day barrier the first time that Friday defying the largest entity of EVE. That was probably the pinnacle of my EVE play. The risk was real, I could lose 10-20% of my wealth. The victory was real, as back then the question if I can reaching titan money was widely doubted. When the Goons blown up those freighters, that was real too. Goons won, freighter pilot lost. He lost about 100 hours of farming.

Good fights, by definition are not real. They end or start no conflict, they have no past or future, they spawn no "butterfly effect", they are just a silly consensual game event. No different from WoW PvP.

I'm not saying that a PvP game with "good fights" is a bad game. I'm saying that it's not harsh, not unforgiving and above all not at all real. Prove me wrong! Tell me that there are groups whose actions are "real", their enemies are really defeated (instead of "gf" or "didn't want Delve anyway, we care about our kill count"). Tell me that someone is genuinely sad, angry or genuinely happy, grateful (like the saved miner in the EVE is real video), maybe learned something or changed his views due to your actions. That your EVE is real and not just League of Legends or WoW Arathi Basin bridge in space.

Why am I not unsubscribed yet? Because of two things: my girlfriend started to like it as "there are so nice quests here", "the scenery is beautiful" and "drones are cute pets". Definitely a satisfied customer. Hey, CCP, you should place ads in girl magazines as "the cutest MMO ever, type this code in and you get 21 days free trial and your career agent destroyer in pink". Secondly, my question isn't academic. I can be wrong, some groups may actually experience "EVE is real". Are there any out there? Or are you all satisfied with "good fights"?

As long as I find no purpose in EVE and actually considering leaving it would be utterly stupid to lead anyone. The corp I started is now disbanded. I apologize to those lured in, but if something is lost, it's better abort it fast.

Friday morning report: 127.0B (2.5B spent on main accounts, 1.9 spent on Logi/Carrier, 1.5 on Ragnarok, 1.1 on Rorqual, 1.4 on Nyx, 1.3 on Avatar, 2.6B received as gift).


serpentinelogic said...

We already had this discussion a decade ago.

Different players have fun different ways.

Anonymous said...

I think there are a few dozen corp/alliance leaders who are in "real" conflict. It is just that due to the "zomg EVE is so HC HTFU GF" mentality their success consists of a lot of motivating and cynically manipulating the GF crowd.

The complicated and sophisticated conflict occurs before the battle starts. Once the boys (of all ages & genders) start spamming F1, that is just a replacement for rolling the D20. Napoleon famously said that “God is on the side of the big battalion"

I just don't see how sustainable the older (as in EQ generation) design of EVE that is very time consuming can compete for PvP attention when it is so easy to hop on LoL/WoT/WoP/GW2/console...


I think the disconnect and the dissonance is "sport" or "conflict/life simulation."

When I started EVE I saw in the forums a few comments along the line of "if you are in a fair fight in EVE, at least one side made a mistake." That is great war and bad sport.

Anonymous said...

About the corp; you should have kept it running and slowly over time, make 'EVE is real' statement to all your members when you take all their billions for you. (was money to be donated straight to alliance? cool you can just split with director then)

About the good fights; I lived in lowsec for a long time flying solo in small gang actively looking for even fights and getting blown up. I hate blobs but they are in game and I can't do nothing if I don't fight with same-minded people as I am. I enjoy the fights itself when it is even, when it is good fight. That is my sole reason for playing eve, small scale PvP. The first time I won 1v3 with assault frigate? That was challenge, it really was. I go out and seek out such fights because that is what keeps me playing the game.

About isk to fund my pvp: I have trader alt that earns earns me ~70m/day, I could push it more but I don't want as that would cut into my pvp time, this keeps it nicely to plex accounts and replace ships I blow up.

Azuriel said...

Tell me that someone is genuinely sad, angry or genuinely happy, grateful (like the saved miner in the EVE is real video), maybe learned something or changed his views due to your actions.

If that is your goal, it is much, much easier accomplished via social means. I, personally, have accomplished those things several times over in WoW (it could happen in any game, really). How do I know? Because I still talk with those people outside of the game 2-3 years later.

The internal logic behind your post is broken. When your life is on the line, of course you are not going to say GG to the people who tried to kill you. However, the "EVE is real" isn't real anyway. It's still a game! A game where you can lose 100s of hours of time and/or real-life money, but there are dozens of games where that is both:

A) Also true, and
B) Can leave you with GG feelings regardless.

Chess, Poker, Magic: the Gathering tournaments, non-professional sports, and so on and so forth. There is a term to describe those professional sports players who lose the match and feel as though there is no possible positive angle to the defeat: poor losers.

No game is real, by definition. If you can get up and walk away, it was all a simulation. And the "true feelings" you profess to seek (can) exist anywhere in any game. So when you say "I outgrown enjoying fights," you are really saying "I outgrew games." Period.

Gevlon said...

@Azuriel: not only your life can be on the line that is important to you.

The crying miners lost more than pixel ship, their belief in "ethics". They used to believe that if they don't attack others, they will be left alone. They were wrong and it made them upset.

The miner in the video could be genuinely happy not because of his pixel ship saved but because a stranger came out of the blue and helped him.

These are real things. Good fights are just Arathi Basin bridge.

NP said...

EVE isn't real. Comparing EVE to a real conflict, where human life is killed, is reprehensible.

In your reply to Azuriel, you suggest that miners who lose their ships QQ because of their challenged ethics instead of their lost pixel-ship. Really? What's your basis?

EVE is a game. If you find some arm-chair philosophers to fly with (or not fly with, as the case may be), then you're winning EVE. If you're a PVPer searching for those "local: GF" worthy battles... if you're finding them, you win EVE.

Anonymous said...

It just simple. Guys who plays EVE as real do not have "good fights". Anyone who allays keep in mind that it just a game can have a good fight.

It just about stakes, "good fight" happens when no one care about outcome.

Druur Monakh said...


Again your blinders lead you into mistaking two extremes for the whole, and seeing a dichotomy which doesn't exist.

EVE is large enough that you can have both 'gudfites' and 'EVE is real' going on in the same game universe - sometimes even with the same players.

Furthermore, humans are in general not one-trick ponies: they can be genuinely elated or totally crushed by a battle's outcome, and at the same time still be able to (grudgingly) acknowledge the opponent's skill. This is known as "it's just a game" or "sportsmanship" - or simply as "being grown up".

Oh, and you do surely realize that both the 'EVE is Real' and 'The Butterfly Effect' videos are commercials?

Alkarasu said...

I think, that this time you make a mistake of mixing what people say with what people really do and feel. EVE is quite real - that's a fact. Every action out there have an effect on the game world, though it may be small. Of course, it's partially diminished by the fact, that player character can't really die and there are means for it to recover from any blow (well, that's a game after all), but it's still the living world, where all actions have they consequences.
And, as part of this concept, there are actually no "gf" in EVE at all. "Good fight" is a fake, despite being mentioned so often. It's not an EVE-exclusive fake, it's well known to the humankind for thousands of years. It exist by many names, but the concept and the purpose of it was always the same - to soften the blow of the fact, that if you get into a fight, you may lose. So, for millenia, humans inspired themselves with the concept, that they can lose, but at least they can do a good fight in the process, and that makes the loss not that big deal. Basically, entire medieval warfare was one big "good fight" for nobles - who fought to death one day and got drunk together with they yesterday enemies the next one, celebrating the very fight, where they tried to kill each other, as a good fight. Enemy warriors, who fought well, but lost and was captured, was sometimes honored as family members of the victor, and sometimes was considered more, then blood relatives - all in the name of a "good fight" they had shown.
So I don't really understand your concern here. EVE is populated by humans, humans tend to use "good fight" concept even in much more harsh environments, you just have to aknowledge, that it's part of normal human behaviour and don't let it bother you. Your enemies WILL always claim, that they hadn't wanted what you took from them anyway, but that's a lie. Don't let it fool you, if they mention it, then your blow really hurt - enough to start trying to fool you and themselves, that it wasn't such big deal.

Anonymous said...

It's been a policy of mine that neither I, nor anyone in my fleet, ever posts "gf" in local. Do that and you're out of fleet.

Why? If I'm "Fighting" my opponent(s), I'm doing something wrong. Why give a target a (real) chance? There is something to be said for baiting an engagement and challenging oneself/fleet, but give the opponent(s) a chance? No. It's an execution, not a fight. Smart opponents I can have respect for that might transcend the target box, such as Miura Bull, respect is mutual by both sides giving it 100% to win.

You want more examples of mutual respect between real life opponents? Go look up Samurai history (Uusegi Kenshin (sp) comes to mind).

US Soldiers and Taliban fighters exchanging "gf" after a battle? Probably not. A grudging respect for each other and an honest attempt to do everything in their power to win? Absolutely, and that's where the respect is.

The soldier that's in it for the adrenaline rush? Revenge? That's the berserker. One of the signs of a berserker is the lack of respect, if not active disdain, of the enemy. I have more respect for the Taliban fighters, right or wrong in their beliefs of their way of life, than I do for the many people that would never pick up a weapon and stand a post to defend their country and obey.

For more on the berserk state and killing see "Achilles In Vietnam" and "On Killing".

Anonymous said...

about the soldiers argument: it's called fraternization

Gevlon said...

@Alkarasu: I agree that the loser may not honestly happy about "gf".

However people go out for no other reason than finding good fight. Maybe they mean "a good fight I win" but still. A roam, or the whole lowsec is about good fights, as you can reap no other rewards.

Alkarasu said...

"However people go out for no other reason than finding good fight. Maybe they mean "a good fight I win" but still."

That is the next step of this fake. If you fool others long enough, you will start to beleive the lie yourself. And don't forget about socials, who tend to mindlessly imitate others behaviour - if others talk about "good fights" and how "losing is fun", social will most likely try to show, that he's having as much fun losing, as others he sees around (inevitably seeking "good fights" for that). Actually, this behaviour also have many historical parallels.
Also, there are always people, who want to spend they wealth some illogical or outright stupid way, "good fight" is as good, as any, reason for that.

Avensys said...

I feel this excerpt from the CSM minutes which were released yesterday ( might be relevant:

"CCP Unifex wanted to explore the topic of conflict drivers a little bit further and asked, if moon minerals are taken off the table, what is it that drives conflicts in EVE?

Seleene responded by saying that these days the major players in each alliance all hang out in the same jabber channels and conversations after fights are more akin to chat after a friendly match (even though titans and super caps were destroyed) rather than ‘hatred’ – everyone is so filthy rich that losses really don’t matter. The ‘romance’ of old times, where hate and animosity where driving factors are largely gone. The sense of loss has turned from ‘damn, now I have to go and mine to afford all this stuff again’ to ‘man, now I have to go to the market and spend money.’

Two step clarified this by saying that there would be conflict drivers if it meant something to lose, in order to get mad at someone they have to do something to hurt you. Even if alliances lose their space, all their stuff is sitting in invulnerable stations. He took an example from Wormhole space, where if attackers destroy you and all your things and brag about how much they are going to get from selling it, that hurts and makes people angry.

Seleene added to this that personal animosity is the best conflict driver in EVE, not resources or space. Currently things are like a bunch of fat people fighting over how gets to eat first at the ‘all you can eat’ buffet, no one will starve, it is just the question of who is first in the line.
CCP Soundwave then commented that it sounded like if everyone lived in complete misery in EVE, it would be a better game?

Seleene and UAxDEATH agreed to that. It was however added, and agreed by all of the session’s participants that seeking security is a very human thing to do and that behavior is reflected clearly in EVE. It could be said that people are perhaps ‘too’ comfortable at present and even though resources (such a moon materials) are tempting, they are not tempting enough to ignite a war."
(pp 47-48)

dobablo said...

A gf is one where you gain enough knowledge and enjoyment to offset the price of victory/defeat.

In life entertainment/learning have a cost. Getting enough value from those to offset the battle cost is a gf.

Unknown said...

@Gevlon, i 100% agree with u, RvB and "GF roams" is just a replacement to get the same CS/LoL/WoT feeling, but inside EvE's sandbox, which is clunky and time consuming, compared to those other games that exclusively focus on this aspect.

Thats why probably many EvE players still play those others games for better experience int hose "arena" battles.

I think it only exists in eve because players tend to try to focus on one "MMO" at the time, no matter what. Its commitment and time spend + friends. So most MMO players will unsub there old for a new and resub/unsub if the new sucks, they don't play both with the same commitment.

U agree with this?

bye Andy

dobablo said...

A suggestion for what you should do next. Find a C1/2 wormhole and build yourself a castle. Flood it with Carriers and Dreads and a Rorqual while your girlfriend runs sleepers when she wants a break from missions.

Gevlon said...

@Dobablo: and it would be interesting, challenging or fun because?

Dioxin said...

Can you imagine the US army and the taliban openly trolling each other on a public forum after a day of shooting, or take time off from trying to kill each other every year to get together for a drunken dick wave? No? That's because EVE is a game. But it's also one that produces real conflicts. Hence you can both exchange "gf" in chat knowing it's a game, and remember the fight as a real test of skill against another skilled human being.

If just one person bulk sold and undercut all of your orders at every trade hub and shredded your margins, would that conflict be real? If you two duked it out for days until eventually you were forced to completely bow out of the implant market, but in the process you learned some of his methods and gave him a real run for his money, would that have been a good fight?

Of course conflicts like this almost never happen to station traders, since so much of what you do is done against a faceless mob who doesn't even know you're there. But because that's the only type of conflict you've experienced, you're lead to believe all in game conflicts are like this. From your perspective it's easy to think good fights don't exist because despite all the real accomplishments you experience so far, you've yet to actually have a single good fight. How could you, when the vast majority of the good fights are at the ship pvp and metagame level? Breaking the 1B/day barrier is an accomplishment, but as far as fights go you might as well have been a ninja salvager who stumbled into the middle of a booze filled RvB free for all and made out with some idiot's deadspace loot.

EVE is not here to handhold you with quest goals, gear goals, or scoreboard goals. Some people chase them anyway, but they're not victory conditions handed down from up high. Even sov is a goal only if you say it is, since plenty of people don't bother chasing it at all. As have been said many, many times already, EVE is a sandbox game. There is no point to play if you can't make your own goals, simple as that.

Should you quit? Only you can make that decision. But if you do quit you'll forever be known as the guy who only did a lot of station trading while blogging about how everybody else was an idiot. A trade bot could have done the former, and any random blogger who's never played EVE could have done the latter.

Never mind being satisfied with good fights. How could anyone be satisfied with you when you don't do anything "real" besides station trade? Armchair theorycrafting is not real until you put it into action. If people in null truly are idiots, then show everyone how easily all their territory can be taken from them by a real professional.

Anonymous said...


I do not think you quite get "Eve is Real"....the majority of people I know who use that, and even when CCP use it on the FB page is showing crossovers to RL.

Your character looks like you...or do you look like your character..a cop car with "Concord" on the side

The people who come to eve, do trading (not hauling, the graphy type trading), then take what they learned and become RL Forex trader as a way of making money. The way players getting grumpy and shooting stuff in game had an impact on the developers. The way certain in game events make RL newspapers, and not in the games section. All the players faces being launched into space in a pod

This is what people mean with "eve is real"

And onto your comment "@Dobablo: and it would be interesting, challenging or fun because?"

An objectivist asking someone else to define how they have fun?
You did this in WoW, had a poll of people to get them to tell you what was fun in game, and then took their advice?

It seems that the poster yesterday was right when they said you are struggling with the sandbox. Lots of people do, even asocials (ones with proper labels to say they are asocial too).
Your endgame is defined by you, not by Test, Goons, RvB, whoever. If you want to own 0.0, that is your endgame, if you want to own one of each BPO in game, that is your endgame, if you want to be the sole provider of X ship in X area, that is your endgame. If you want +5 with all factions, that is your endgame.
If you want a 100B+ wallet with nothing to burn it on, then you have reached your endgame, so why not go for the TornSoul challenge, and find a way to get 10% returns on over 1 Trillion?
You are trying to define your endgame and fun by others. Your girlfriend has a better understanding, she likes flying her Rokh, and is just bashing through missions, probably with an idea of which ship she wants to end up in.

Finally, about GF...for me, it is not about winning or losing, sometimes you are going to lose from when the fight starts (Rupture Vs Devoter for example), but then you suddenly realise you lasted longer than you thought, and you might have a shot...then a Nyx suddenly appears to help the other guy...fuck, you are screwed, then 2 randoms turn up to white knight for you, in T1 cruiser and BC ships, and buy you enough time to finish taking down the devoter...your loss? 15m, his loss? 249m, having fun on a gate in lowsec at 2am? Priceless.
So, GF for me, fun for me..please note the use of the singular personal pronoun.

As in life, in eve, you define your own fun, and what you wish to do. You can let others define things for you, but I doubt you are that sort of person, or I doubted that previously.

Alkarasu said...

"and it would be interesting, challenging or fun because?"

Depends on what fun you intend to get from that. If hunting AI in anomalies is your definition of "fun", then any WH is an endless source of that fun. If solving sometimes unsolvable logistic problems for large profits makes you happy - WH life is just for you. If you are interested in some extremely random PvP in places your WH open to - well, guess, where you can get plenty of that. Want to play with nearly-most-powerful "pets" in EVE universe without much fear, that some huge supercaps blob will land on you enroute to they own battle and crush the fun in two volleys? WH carriers await you. Damn, even if you just want to roleplay Dwarf Fortress in New Eden with couple of friends - WH is your logical choice.
But, as many mentioned that before, you must make your own choice yourself. There are no endgame in EVE. More, than that, there are no "game" in EVE at all - except if you make your own and bring it with you. Or join someone elses - which is, as I assume at this point, is not what you want.

evemonkey said...

the only thing I have to add is my own reasonings for putting GF in local.

if I can clearly see the enemy used skill or out-witted our fleet in some way or showed exceptional courage I will respect them whether I lose or win. I get angry and frustrated when we stomp all over the opponent (as with my posts about the providence war a few years back) I want them to show some gumption and creativity in fighting back, but when they don't it's not satisfying (note the use of "satisfying" not "fun").

finally: Every time my ship blows up I learn something, whether it is a new habit or a new tactic or a lesson learned about the oponent's play style.

Penuruloki said...

Those who engage in "real" activities usually take the time to practice. Certainly the US Army isn't going to "gf" the Taliban, but I'll bet two groups who square off in wargame or training simulations will engage in that kind of friendly behavior. The same activity, but different attitudes, because one is "real" and the other is practice. That's what the "gf" in Eve represents: practice. That doesn't mean there is no such thing as a real fight in Eve, where there's something on the line and both sides are invested in the outcome. And looking for "good fights" to hone skills doesn't mean that they avoid "real" activities with consequences.

Certainly, the stakes are limited by the fact that it is a game. If Eve players faced consequences for their actions comparable to real life, they'd behave differently, but they're playing a game specifically to get away from real life. If they seek to avoid "real" conflict, that's their choice. It isn't safe to assume that's true of everyone engaging in "good fights" though, much less everyone in the game. It isn't a choice of one or the other, you can have both.

Sugar Kyle said...

Giving the good fight has many aspects. Some have been pointed out already.

In a game it can help to calm and focus everyone to acknowledge the skill, acomplishment and tactics of another.

The loss of the fight does not mean the loser brought no value to the fight. You may mock me, but winning isn't everything and sometimes not even most of it. It may be cliche as hell but I'll say it. Acknowledging their sucesses and attempts makes it easier to learn from them as well as the situation. If your view is only "I won because I am awesome" then eventually you will stop growing due to an inability to adapt.

You sound so sad and so angry as everyone moves around you playing and enjoying the game. There is no other reason then the pleasure from ones actions sometimes. You said that you have out grown that. Then you sound angry that others are still happily in the state of enjoyment.

Some of this also sounds like an attempt to stomp on the ego of those that.roll with the hardcore thinking by forcing them to prove themselves to you. How will that happen when you don't believe what they do has value or can have value when it does not fit into your definition of value. You are asking people to define themselves inside your view and not their own.

Inside of what you have laid out as value, reason, cause and goal I can only stand before you and say I have none of what you value as sucess.

Anonymous said...

you know, i've been following your blog since you started playing eve now, and while it was interesting at the start it became more hilarious and obvious where this was going with each post.

you write that you don't find purpose for yourself in eve? well maybe thats even after the time that you spend with the game so far, you never started playing eve.
you came with that mindset that all should work in a specific way, that you could grasp the motivations of others by just looking at it without doing it - and you where wrong. People kept telling you that you are wrong, you didn't want to see it.

EVE is real does not mean EVE is like the reality you know. It means that if you take part in the eve universe, something you avoided, eve becomes a part of your life.

It means that the stories you experience in EVE are real stories. No sitting on the campfire in Goldshire at the end of a day, and every fucking player having the same story how they beat the great evil that is.
Every "real" eve player you meet can tell you his own story on how he lost his first ship, how he was in a battle that took a totally different turn as planned, his greatest victory etc. And to people who play like this, wo take part in the EVE Universe EVE is real.

Getting in (RL) news for metagame, or for a huge scam, getting into eve news (ISD, or the tabloid en24) are achievements that are "Real".

Just being trader 123456789 who manages to play spreadsheets a bit obviously does not give you that feeling.

Anonymous said...

There are no good fights in EVE.
"GF" is just a way for the loser to hide his frustratrion and anger both from the opponent and from himself. It's a lie with which he tries to convince the winner that he's not mad at all and that he enjoyed the fight. And when talking about RvB and stuff: those fights can't be good or even bad, because they aren't fights from the start. They are abominations.
You might see a parallel here with the responses different miners give to gankers during Hulkageddon. Some just silently go away, some rage. And some express "sincere" interest in the making of a gank and after that say that they "learned" their lesson(with smilies of course). Gankers are most entertained by the third type. But if they looked closely, they would see themselves. Typin "GF". In Local.

Johan March said...

Gevlon, it's just a video game. Stop trying to analyze it to death. Take a hint from your gf. Look at the pretty graphics, the ship details, the cute drones.

Take an unknown alt. Join RvB or some pirate gang. Learn to asplode and asplode others. Stop worrying about titans and learn to smell the frigates. Go probe out a wormhole and enjoy the mere finding of it.

Learn to ENJOY the GAME as opposed to fretting about how it's supposed to be.

And, if you do quit, can I haz your stuffs?

Gevlon said...

@Johan: I know it's a game. However every commercial, every press piece, every blog told that it's something "real". That doing something here affects the gameplay of other player, while killing 10 fozzles in WoW affect nothing.

I just recognized it's not true. It's no more "real" or "harsh" or "unforgiving" than WoW.

Anonymous said...

Ricdic was able to RMT 330b from the money he stole from EBANK which allowed him to meet his mortgage payments even when he ahd to stay at home after the birth of his child (which had some serious medical condition I don't recall).

EVE is real.

Anonymous said...

Concernong Taliban and Nato trolling each other ...

Anonymous said...

@Gevlon: "I just recognized it's not true. It's no more "real" or "harsh" or "unforgiving" than WoW."

Yes, when you stay docked 24/7 and station trade the game is not harsh.
When you hire others to move your cargo with full collateral - it is not harsh either.
When your idea of visiting dangerous places is to do it with covops with rigs for extended MWD cycle (amazing! you maybe tank it "just in case" too and put warp stabs)

Your ego will somehow justify your leaving but for the general public you failed in every possible way other than stockpiling money.

You failed at making a mining op. You failed at making a corp (well, you DID made it and it lasted 3 days).
You failed at finding a fun thing to do in the most unrestricted game available on the market.

So, mate, don't try to evaluate a game that you never played.

Ignatius Hood said...

EVE in its most basic sense is about warfare so its said anyway. I am humored how many folks spout Sun Tzu in EVE yet have no idea how to embody his teachings as it pertains to warfare *in* EVE. One of the fundemental flaws in the game is the near impossibility of deception in the game on a Strategic Level, watch lists and local chat make these concepts difficult to pull off and therefore neuter warfare in the game. Fog of War is what lets the little guy beat the big guy. Strategic fog of war is almost impossible in EVE.

The only place you can smoke screen folks is in WHs and you can do it exactly one time. Once they see you, you're on a watch list and you'll never get the same guy again unless he's a total moron or you wait weeks/months for his guard to drop.

Frankly put, I look for curb stomp battles in EVE. I look for tactics and strategies that allow me to achieve objectives with minimal losses and maximum destruction of my enemy. I don't want a good fight. I want a one sided slaughter.

Think the guys fighting through hedgerow country in France on the March to Cherbourg wanted a fair fight with the Germans? Nope, they crushed them with airpower and 10/1 numerical superiority. They didn't want to die they wanted to kill every German they could see.

Eliminate local, eliminate watch lists, the blood will flow, Supers will die. If things stay like there are we'll just have a bunch of Jutlands and no Trafalgars. I want less of the former, more of the latter.

I'm not a big fan of the CFC but one thing they do very well is force decisive engagements by using the one mechanism available, grinding structures. They do it well and with such numbers that cute tactics account for nothing. But they also make heavy use of spies and local to keep tabs on their enemies. Likely they know what you have to respond with better then you do. I applaud this behavior in the sense that they maximize use of a broken mechanic. But to be contrary, its hard to kill Goliath as David when Goliath is bigger, stronger, and HAS EYES IN THE BACK OF HIS HEAD.

Anonymous said...

tbh I am surprised that you haven't realized yet that 9 out of 10 times somebody says "EVE is real" it is in sarcastic reference to a bad CCP marketing campaign that was crowned with a hilariously bad trailer ( which spawned some pretty good parodies (e.g. , or

"Butterfly effect" is not any better as the whole story is built on a completely unrealistic premise.

The trailers most actual eve players would tell you to watch to get an idea of the game are probably "EVE Never Fades" ( and the Dominion Trailer (

Gevlon said...

@Anonymous: and don't you find it strange that someone who don't play the game can but a Titan. Isn't that a problem by itself.

I didn't "play" because nothing made me. Why should I go the hard way when the easy way is right there.

Sure I could add extra restrictions like "get money only by pirating". But what's the point? The game should be challenging itself, because either the code, or the opponents.

My problem is indeed that you can "win" this game without playing it.

Khanh'rhh said...

You can't "win" EvE by having a lot of ISK, because literally no one cares about your balance.

It's what you do with it that counts, and all you have tried to do you have failed at.

Druur Monakh said...

@Gevlon said: "That doing something here affects the gameplay of other player,"

Doing something in EVE /can/ affect the gameplay of other players (maybe those of a whole region, maybe just those in your local system) - but it is not automatic. You have to put some effort into it, and possibly even take on all-or-nothing risks.

So far you have been playing EVE in safe mode - no wonder you're bored.

Anonymous said...

Gevlon, I'll make it simpler.

There are two players playing chess. You watch from aside and make betting for the other viewers.

You make good predictions and soon you earn a lot of money but you don't really play chess.

It is the same with EvE. The game is actually a space ship simulation game where you fight against other players (same as chess but you can choose your own pieces and your own board).

You pretend that you know all about chess by watching others play chess and by getting money from the public. Well, maybe try a game or two?

I don't see a problem with the fact that you can own a titan while not playing the game. Titan is just another form of your money. It has nothing to do with your SKILL.

From my perspective you and the guy that buys plexes for 10 000 EUR and converts them to ISK are indistinguishable.

And you are not winning the game. You are ignoring the game.

Sugar Kyle said...

How is buying a Titan winning Eve? It's not the best ship in the game and the IWIN button, its just the biggest and most expensive.

Avensys said...

@Gevlon there children that you can give a bag of standard LEGO bricks and they will be entertained for hours - and there are children that need some TV series to tell them how to play with their single-function action figures.

EVE is the adult equivalent of LEGO bricks (and I'm not talking about newfangled Star Wars-themed LEGO with tons of special-purpose part).

Anonymous said...

"My problem is indeed that you can "win" this game without playing it."


I think you are finally discovering that the only way to "win" EVE is to not play.

But thank you - you provided content and lots of discussion. And you provided CCP with paid accounts for a couple of months.

EVE is a game you have to evolve with. You sound like a "bitter-vet" after only 6 months. As you noted at the beginning of this project - you have to find your own "why". Stop trying to change the world and just find a way to enjoy the game.

Alkarasu said...

"I just recognized it's not true. It's no more "real" or "harsh" or "unforgiving" than WoW."

Nope, you recognized, that most other people solo actions are too small to somehow affect you and your game. Funniest thing of all, is that right here, in this very post, you described your own experience with "EVE is real", but somehow failed to recognize it as such (despite mentioning, that you do).

"Isn't that a problem by itself."

No, that is not a problem. In fact, you tend to go "Let them eat cake!" direction again. Most people don't have your mind for trade and/or your dedication to make a titan through trade. You think it's something trivial, anyone can do it? Well, technically it is true, but technically I can walk from, say, Paris to Seoul - it doesn't require anything more, than a skill I had obtained when I was less then year old, no? But somehow no one does that - despite it's accessible to anyone.

"Why should I go the hard way when the easy way is right there."

And here is your main problem with EVE (though you was showing some signs of it while in WoW). You fail to grasp the meaning of the game. You do things rationally and only rationally. It's awesome when you tackle a real problem, but when you try to do same in a game without a clear goal, you doomed to stumble to the point you are now at - try to be rational in a place that is irrational by definition. You do everything according to rules you can't break - but also do everything to bend those you can bend. You find fastest, most effective way to the target - and the moment you do, you already lost the meaning. You trapped by the fact, that rational way is always easy. But - that's very, very important, probably, most important thing about games in general - games are not meant to be played rational. Games are all about irrational, often self-imposed rulesets, where you, not someone else, create the problem you then solve. Without this, the game is meaningless.
Look at your blog. It's very easy to trace your progress in this terms. First, from the lack of knowledge, you find yourself a problem to solve. You start your brilliant (I know, that's not what everyone thinks about it, but I made sure it is) head on it, you make plans, you inspire, you gain more knowledge and then... you find, that rationally it's best not to touch the problem at all. So you scrap the project and start searching for another. You did it for a while here, and in a process, made yourself an image of extremely short attention spam silly noob, who knows only his trading charts and tend to have a new world domination plan every next week. Rationally you was right every time - from that knowledge you had, when you started, there was a problem worthy of some effort to solve, it was natural, that with more knowledge on topic it became no problem at all, or not worth the effort, but each time you did it, you lost the game once more. Because when you set the goal and the rules you either win, or you lose. Now you got to the point there are no problems in EVE, that are worth any attention from the rational point of view - so you want to quit. It is rational, after all. But by doing this you will lose EVE one more time - by being unable to create yourself a goal in it, a goal, that can make you use all you power to reach, that will challenge you on every step, and which is, rationally, completely meaningless, as everything else within the game.
So what you really need here is a way to learn, how not to stop solving a problem, that is irrational to solve. That's a game, after all, and that's how you supposed to play them.

Gevlon said...

@Alkarasu: and if it's not problem solving, than what shall I do? Run around, shoot everything that doesn't have a blue icon and spam local with "lol"? Because that's what most of the players do here.

Anonymous said...

I'll help you to understand what is real, with stuff from your own blog:

The guy that lost his spot as diplo for Test trying to scamm you.

All the mission runners that you help make a profit so they could buy ships to blow up.

All the people that took time of their lifes to tell in the comments of this blog that you don't get EVE.

All these thing were real. These are things that you did for the game that we all play. They are very small indeed, but you are part of the real history of New Eden now.

It's kind of sad that you can't see that. But not everybody gets EVE.

Gevlon said...

@Anonymous: you are right. These were real. I'll probably stay. Thank you.

Alkarasu said...

And why do you, of all people, care, what most of the people do? Find yourself a problem worthy of solving. In any case, you must solve this one by yourself, don't make me decide on your "why" of EVE. If you want any advice, ask your girfriend. I remember her being good in finding her "why" in WoW, and she knows you way better, then I ever will. If anyone can help you, it's her.

Anonymous said...

Ok Gevlon :

Here is a goal : Build the perfect small gang (10 px maximum) for small fights

Or: Dominate a C6 Wormhole with your corp, build a pos at every moon there and become really really ritch .. by the way i think there is no corp who is ermanent in a c6 stationed (could be wrong)

Eve is a HARD place because (i started like you .. i'm also a engeneer) everytime you think you understand the game some retarded guy comes by and kills you and lols at you ... but to be true to you .. i traded just 2 months .. afterwards i valued my time more than to do a thing that every cheap programm that i could programm could do better so i'm more into the hole tactical and millitary stuff from eve .. building great new fits thinking outside of the ruleset ... if you play with the rules other people dictate you .. if you can break free from the mainstream mindset you could be an creative military genius ...

Steel H. said...

EVE is not a game, it’s a virtual world. You should read Wolfhead’s blog at this point; some of his older posts go into great detail on this. What do you don in a virtual world, instead of a game? Whatever you can and whatever you want. One challenge in a virtual world sandbox, as opposed to a game, is COMMING UP WITH AN ORIGINAL, AWESOME IDEEA, AND THEN MAKING IT HAPPEN. The scoreboard is how original your idea is, how bigger the impact is, how many applauses you gather on forums, how high in the international press do you get. Hellicity invented Hulkageddon, that was a big one. Mittani burned Jita, that ended up in Le Figaro. That other guy disbanded the most powerful alliance, at the height of its glory (made it to BBC), that other guy stole $40000 equivalent ISK. So go steal more?
- Create your own game, in EVE. The Alliance Tourney is as close to a game as you want. So create and sponsor your own tourney, invite teams to fight for prizes under your rules, and so forth. The challenge here is to make it exciting, to have good teams participate, to have a huge number of spectators, to have people say that was awesome, let’s do it again.
- Sponsor intergalactic terror campaigns, hire mercenaries to blockade systems, kill freighters, and interdict mining and resources. You don’t like that M&S can just grind L4s like robots and get risk free ISK, inflating your better ISK? In your EVE? So go kill them (all). The challenge here is to catch as many as possible, make them scream as much as possible, get the price of commodity X as high/low as possible, and maybe tilt the market is such a way that you make even more obscene amounts of money.
- Own all of station trading. The challenge here is to eliminate all 0.01 punks, create perfectly balanced markets in all of the major hubs, and if “you buy ... , you buy it from us”
- Create a mega corporation in hisec and outcompete other indy corporation in whatever. Steal Red Frog’s business. Steal someone else’s business. Create a casino like Somer. ...
- Come up with an idea of your own. All you need is creativity, thinking outside the box, understanding the actual workings of EVE (as opposed to thinking that you understand) and ???
This is how a sandbox works. The challenge is to create content. The better the content you create, the better you “win”.

Alkarasu said...

"i think there is no corp who is ermanent in a c6 stationed (could be wrong) "

You are wrong, there are plenty of C6 which is held by one corp permanently (I live in one of those). After all, what can you really do to remove a corp from such an "accessible" location where you can't even bring a proper fleet into and hope to have it back? Naturally, no one builds POSes on every moon though, as there are many moons and only so much tasks you may need to be done in WH. It's C3's which are constantly contested - with hisec WH opening every other day, WH mass capacity allowing to get sizable fleets in, and bored C6 inhabitants visiting all the time and shooting your structures and your ships just for fun.

Cinammon said...

I'm going to explain it very simply:

Goodfights are to eve as eve is to RL.

It's a game within a game.

In 'real eve' the player gets to fight a space war without losing his RL life, in RvB a pilot gets to fight a space war without losing his in-game life.

A 'real' eve war is no more real compared to a RL war than a RvB war is compared to the 'real' eve war.

You could consider goodfights an in-game sport as well, since sports are games too.

Steel H. said...

Regarding gudfites
Again, it’s a virtual world sandbox; people can create and play whatever game they want. Roaming is just one of them (quite popular). You set out just like a primordial band of hunters to hunt for trophies. Remember how Predator was hunting for trophies? You go out with your gang, sometimes you find nothing, other times a single dual tanked Myrmidon carebear and you murder him, other times you find a worthy opponent that kicks your ass. People PVP because the act of flying, piloting, fighting and killing internet pixel spaceships is fun in itself, and the exercise of these skills creates flow. Does a football player like football itself, or does he just like pwning the other team?
Then there’s also room for total serious business mode. Fights over techmoons, sov conquests and wars of extermination/survival get as ugly and as real as they can get, they would make even Sun Tsu run for the exit. Listen to Mittani’s Art of nullsec war and the Branch campaign SOTG (google it). The goal (challenge) here is none other than TO MAKE THE OTHER PLAYERS QUIT PLAYING THE GAME. Let that sync in for a while, can you think of any PVP game anywhere where the goal, and the way to win, is to force your opponent to stop playing the game itself? All honor goes out the window, and I have personally seen FCs shout at fleets to stop GFs in local, during ~serious~ wars. Blobbing, hard-counter fleets, espionage, covert ops, cloaking campers, propaganda, forum flame wars, insulting and humiliating, fomenting actual hate, racist and homophobic speech, grinding structure timers to wear out their morale, force them to fight at absurd hours, make their lives (in internet space as miserable as possible). Then you have DDOS attacks on alliances comm servers, spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on RMT (legal and illegal) to finance capital fleets, hacking forums and servers, cutting the power to the house of the Titan pilot during the critical battle, and infiltrating the game developer itself with your agents to push for game mechanic changes in your favor (my personal favorite). Is that real enough for you? (

Kristopher said...

As others have already stated, Eve is whatever you want to make of it.

A gudfite is no more "real" than a game of chess, or Eve itself for that matter.

And getting a reddit'tard booted from a major corporate roll in a 1000+ player alliance was just pure win on any level.

( and you own no one an apology for breaking up goblinworks. No one lost anything, including me. )

Anonymous said...

Isn't gg in real life called 'respecting the opponent'.
I can see soldiers sparring tell each other GG. In war they 'respect' the opponent.

I tried to explain when you joined EVE (PvP) that it lacked a ladder system and that it does not encourage competitive PvP. It is world PvP on a massive scale. Battle preparation is one of the major factors and this discourages competitive play, despite the stimulus of limited resources. Does this make it less fun, no. Does this provide the competitive element where people go from gg to 'i hate/respect/fear player/group X', no.

EvE is WoW world PvP on a large scale. I would compare it with a faction controlling Tyrs Hand (a place to get resources), Felwood raid buffs, or a faction controlling a daily quest area. This is a fun numbers game that can appeal to a wide audience. Individual skill isn't the major factor, although it has influence (and thus can feel rewarding). It however is not as competitive like WoW arena.

One could control/play trade and markets to create a better flow of resources than these quest/grind zones. Controlling these areas would still impact the world to some extent. EVE provides this experience on a larger scale.

I've mainly used 'good fight' in WoW arena when they taught me a strategy that I could test out and apply in new matches, effectively increasing my overall rating.

Alkarasu said...

"I've mainly used 'good fight' in WoW arena"

WoW do have "good fights", as it's not "real" in EVE terms. There are no losses, therefore, a fight can be good for both sides equally, despite one of them lose.

tangurena said...

"GF" in local is the same as the bows at the end of a Judo/Karate match. It is a ritual to end the situation. In a real fight, martial arts moves are meant to kill or cripple the opponent. So the final bow is to say "it is over."

In Eve, it is quite normal for the anger and rage from a fight to drive you to want to go kill or cripple the other guy. Do that and you get a permanent lifetime ban from the game. So you have to have a different ritual to end the situation - which "GF" fulfils. Reading the CSM minutes shows this to be a concern of those who have their RL identy exposed as a requirement of being a CSM.

Pim said...

There was an article entitled "Combat as Sport versus Combat as War" over in some Dungeons and Dragons forums a few months ago.

Iirc, there was also a key moment in a film with Brad Pitt and Robert Redford in which the apprentice spy
(Pitt) is upset with the master spy (Redford) because the master treats everything too much like a game. The master spy replies, "But it is a game. And the stakes are life and death."

Once you've outgrown sport, you will turn to war. Once you've outgrown war, you will realize that war is sport.

(I don't know how it goes after that, but I assume the evolution continues. People don't stop growing.)

Also, take a moment to consider the things in Eve which are the most impressive. They are all "real life" accomplishments: the creation of useful, functioning organizations such as E-UNI and RvB; the people providing jump clone services; the creation and implementation of Hulkageddon and Burn Jita.

Just like WoW, and just like real life, ISK is useless until you spend it. Your best adventures in WoW were not so much spending gold, but on organizing campaigns such as Undergeared, The PuG, and the various shenanigans in Wintergrasp and Tol Barad.

Anonymous said...

I have found Devlon's post some of the most entertaining in Eve's history and as such he is part of the real history of Eve the game and some of our "real" life games too where we simply read blogs and philosophies. After all "real" life is just a game too where we all die in the end, at least so far. Good on you to be a memorable character. Can't ask for more than that really.

Anonymous said...

I personally think that your view of good fights are in the game, because alliances are sitting on too many ISK.

Losing a fight no longer means that someone has to spend hours mining in order to get a new ship, but rather just go to the market and get one. The sense of risk feels lower than what it used to.

Trektar said...

I wonder - in WoW you didn't stop after making lots of money. You reached your first goal, proofing that you can make money as easily in Eve as in WoW.

But you didn't stop in WoW. You started a guild, tried unconventional tactics in inis, organized bg slaughters. To experiment, to show the world things can be done an unconventional way, or to show the M&S that an organized group can slaughter them and win bgs without a problem.

You wanted to influence things, like making Wintergrasp a nightmare for the horde and a farm festival for alliance. Sure, you denied them honor points and caused them repair bills. But in EVE you can destroy hours of play time! While in WoW Arthasdklol writes "omfg n00b team", leaves and joins the next bg, in EVE your actions can cause longer lasting damage/effects. And if you organize raids, you don't just annoy players on one of many servers - but ALL players in the game in one area.

Maybe you should look back at what achievements you're proud of in WoW and what you would like to try in Eve. I'm sure a smart man like you can come up with some challenges, maybe to cause the game designers to change something just because of something you did...? Then you really influenced the game.

Anonymous said...

Gevlon, I've followed your blog since WoW and, to be honest, you have some interesting ideas.

I think, in the Eve context, you are possibly looking at it wrong though.

In WoW, you were focused on (1) earning gold and then (2) raiding/pvp activities. The difference there is that such activities are, to a large extent, self contained because it was against the AI (for raids) or in a very controlled environment (battlegrounds).

That worked but EvE "end-game" is too unstructured for that.

I think that if you want to find a purpose in your own "end-game", it would be to find some form of structure you can control, whether it's by way of forming your own economic cartel or your own controlled pvp environments. Trying to "win" the whole of EvE isn't going to work and it's too ambitious a goal for now I would suspect.

Steel H. said...

Your other mistake was rushing headlong into the “endgame”, ignoring the natural progression curve that everyone else must go through. Now, I read a blog post by some guy named Gevlon (you may want to google it) some time back, where he was saying that you must start small, because when you make your inevitable mistakes, you only have so much to lose, instead of everything. I think he was using lemonade stand metaphors or something. This is why people start out in rifters and drakes, and as grunts, before going on to Avatars and alliance leadership. Pus you make a silly amount of assumptions about everything, from basic PVP to 0.0. You are bored with the game before firing a single shot?

So I say start slow, roll a RvB rifter alt or something, and get a feel for it. See if you like it or not. The CFC, 0.0, alliance leadership, supercap fleets weren’t built in a day.

eudaimonean said...

All right Gevlon, here's the truth: winning Eve is being the Mittani. Until you're Mittani, you haven't won Eve. Of course, in order to *be* the Mittani, you need to acquire followers.

In that sense, Eve is the most social game there is, because it does not enforce sociality. In other MMOs, there are mechanics that force you to be friends and help each other (raids, can't steal from each other, etc.) In Eve this "enforced sociality" does not exist, and as a consequence, your social ties are actually that much more valuable, as it is only these out-of-game social connections, not artificial gameplay restrictions, that empower groups.

And the player with the strongest and most social ties, can motivate the most players to log in and shoot internet spaceships on his behalf, is the winner. This dimension is further enhanced by the fact that in Eve, much as in real life, numbers count. If you have a bigger army and more resources than your enemy, that can compensate for marginally less "quality" among your troops. Hence the reality that wars in Eve are basically won when one side stops logging in - pilots in spaceships are the most scarce resource there is.

To the extent that Eve is real, it's about building the social cohesion of your group while demolishing the social cohesion of your enemy group.

So go become the Mittani already ;D.

Kass Boor said...

pro athletes can certainly exchange "good fights"

Anonymous said...

I think your gf, like many others, is winning EVE - she is getting reasonable entertainment value for her time/money. That others think she should be doing something different doesn't matter.


How is where you have ended up with EVE different than WoW? It seems like in both cases you thought what most people were doing was moronic/slacking. It seems EVE is more social; it really is much more about the group you belong to and those you fight. And WoW is much less judgmental about people doing what they want. Whereas the overwhelming consensus in EVE is you need to be PvPing or you are doing it wrong, regardless of the amount of ISK.

Re 3Aug 20:29:

I think designing systems where some customers benefit by causing paying customer to leave is incompetent. It's an anti-recruitment bonus - instead of getting a bonus for "recruit-a-friend" you and your alliance get benefits from causing them to ragequit. Surely this needs to change when F2P RMT console players join in a few months.

Jessica said...

Sad to hear Eve turned out to be a letdown as well. I'll pop in here once in a while to see what's up next in your mission to make a difference to the world. Be it by the means of game or without it.



David said...

Interesting to see my combat as sport / combat as war article popping up on the blog again.

I wrote it very much with Eve in mind as I think that the difference between what the article calls good fights and real fights is a meaningful distinction between playstyles (and, to at least some extent, editions in D&D). The basic idea came from a comment thread on Tobold's blog with him failing to understand why people would like "real fights" more than "good fights."