Greedy Goblin

Monday, July 2, 2012

Logistics checklist

As you know a few months ago I started an account for null/WH life. My trader main and supporting alts will remain in highsec and NPC corp. Despite having 5M+ SP, this pilot still can't fly anything since learned zero spaceship command skills. This is the curse of remap-planning: until it completes, you are useless. But the blessing is the extremely fast learning. I gained 2600 SP/hour on average, learning nothing but int/mem support skills (with some int/perc ones). However I'll soon end that remap and go perc/will to learn the logistic ships and the logistic skill itself. Then I'll learn the carrier and remap back to Int/Mem to learn the capital version of the support skills and also to complete all skills.

The purpose of this first Int/Mem period was to learn all necessary support skills for a Logistics ship, and not to a carrier. Below you can see the skills. The purpose of this post both to be informational for further logi pilots and to ask you to comment if something is missing. Please note the word "necessary" above. I know that rank 5 is better than 4 but maxing everything out would take several months. So please only comment a missing or under-ranked skill if it's really game-breaking not to have them and they can't wait until I finish my perc/will remap (about 4 months). Feel free to comment if I over-learned some skill and a beginner logi pilot can live without that skill or at lower rank (before you do so, please check if the skill is not needed at 5 for another skill to train like Long range targetting for Logistics). The skills marked by * are updates in the posts.

Skills at rank 5:
  • Cybernetics
  • Energy Systems Operation
  • Engineering
  • Long Range Targeting
  • Mechanics
  • *Navigation
  • Remote Armor Repair Systems
  • Repair Systems
  • Signature Analysis
  • Targeting
Skills at rank 4:
  • Afterburner
  • Shield Emission Systems
  • Electronic Warfare
  • *Acceleration control
  • Armor Rigging
  • Electronics
  • EM Armor Compensation
  • Energy Emission Systems
  • Energy Management
  • Evasive Maneuvering
  • Explosive Armor Compensation
  • *High speed maneuvering
  • Hull Upgrades
  • Jury Rigging
  • *Science
  • Kinetic Armor Compensation
  • Nanite Interfacing
  • Thermic Armor Compensation
  • Thermodynamics
  • Warp Drive Operation
Skills at rank 3:
  • Nanite Operation
  • Cloaking
  • Energy grid upgrades
  • *Multitasking

I already started a cloaky scout alt (on my main account) who will help moving around in null/WH and do the WH-mandatory astrometrics scanning (Buzzards have bonus for that).

On this alt I tested the Cerebral Accelerator, a booster that you can buy around 200M. It gives +3 to all attributes and stack with implants. You can use it until your 35th day. During this time the implant provides 4.5 pt/minute = 227K skillpoints free. More info on this booster is written to my implant/remap guide. One little problem: to use the bonus, I must train this char and not others on the same account. Like my main. I didn't want to fly a freighter anyway... Make up your own mind if this item worth using!

Also, since people keep telling that I should spend more on "fun", I started another account. Ragnarok titan is perfect fleet booster for subcaps, but for supercaps signature radius helps nothing. They need energy. So my Avatar pilot has born. Dual-boxing titans in battle seems fun enough.

Saturday morning report: 71.5B (1.5B spent on main accounts, 1.3 spent on logi, 1.0 on Ragnarok, 0.5 on Rorqual, 0.9 on Nyx)
Sunday morning report: 76.3B (1.5B spent on main accounts, 1.3 spent on logi, 1.0 on Ragnarok, 0.5 on Rorqual, 0.9 on Nyx, 0.8 on Avatar, 2.6B received as gift). Someone out of the blue just sent 2.6B to me. EVE is a harsh, unforgiving place where everyone want to kill you. See it yourself!
Monday morning report: 79.6B (1.5B spent on main accounts, 1.3 spent on logi, 1.0 on Ragnarok, 0.5 on Rorqual, 0.9 on Nyx, 0.8 on Avatar, 2.6B received as gift).


Anonymous said...

You need hull upgrades 5, energy emission system 5 would be wise aswell. In fact alot of your level 4 skills should be level 5.

Anonymous said...

Hull upgrades 5, is definitely a necessity.

Anonymous said...

I would highly recommend your base x1 skills to 5 (navigation and electronics) and I'd put Energy Management on a "high priority but don't let that stop you getting into nullsec" list.

as you're flying logistics, you're basically converting your capacitor into hit points, but you also need to microwarpdrive as necessary to keep up with the fleet and you will be a target for enemy neuters. a larger capacitor means faster recharge rate, so even though energy systems operation directly effects recharge rate, Energy Management indirectly effects it.

EM to 5 is also a required skill for a perma mwd drake. I'm not sure how that translates to supporting logistics fittings.

Anonymous said...

Multitasking lvl3 is enough (=10 targets, and logis can't lock past that anyway)
High Speed Maneuvering 3 or 4 !!!!!
Electronics to lvl 5
Hull Upgrades lvl 5 !!!!

Ok, I stopped thinking additional thinking after I saw hull upgrades skill @ 4. Please invest a bit more time into developing a plan.

Also, which logi and which carrier are you planning to fly?

You should also launch EFT and check whether your planned logistics fit is cap stable/fits well with this plan (most alliances use similar logi fits).

Gevlon said...

I know that lot of lvl4 should be 5. And having them would take like 3 months.

Microwarpdrivers are a surprise to me. I mean they not only eat up cap in no time, but also decrease capacitor size by about 20%. That counts as "Energy Mangement -4". With faction afterburner a Guardian can go with 680m/s. Isn't that enough? I mean what's the point of outrunning the battleships of the fleet?

Anonymous said...

and here it goes again.
about once every two weeks someone starts the argument by claiming that level IV is ok, and level 5 takes to long and is only needed by elitist freaks.

you are wrong.

ships are designed by ccp with all-level-5-skills in mind.
fleet setups are designed, usually with level 5 skills in mind.

If you cannot afford to train all relevant skills to V you shouldn't be flying the ship yet.

I mean you don't move your car arround with 80% of a drivers license, do you?

Gevlon said...

@Last anonymous: the only reason I did not delete your post is an opportunity to tell the readers that you are a capital case idiot and the No1 reason why EVE has the bad name of "EVE offline".

If it would be true, all pilots before 20M SP would be useless and shouldn't fly - anything and should only log in during the first 1.5 YEARS of playing to queue the next skill.

No, I don't think you are elitist. You are simply dumb like a piece of rock.

Don't even bother to answer, your further idiocy will be deleted.

Anonymous said...

Microwarpdrivers are a surprise to me. I mean they not only eat up cap in no time, but also decrease capacitor size by about 20%. That counts as "Energy Mangement -4". With faction afterburner a Guardian can go with 680m/s. Isn't that enough? I mean what's the point of outrunning the battleships of the fleet?
you should think twice about putting faction stuff at fleet ships.
also, no 680m/s is not enough, infact your slower than for example a standard fleet abaddon (710 m/s)
which means you cannot keep up with 'em.
but even if you where at the same speed like your battleships, you'd be doing it wrong. high speed = getting out of bubbles fast (nothing worse than the logistics being under tackle), highspeed = if you have spread in you main fleet - for example through bombing attemps you can get back together, and more importantly if you are under fire its your only chance to get to other logistics to save you.

Gevlon said...

Skills updated:

Acceleration control
High speed maneuvering

Anonymous said...

@Gevlon you don't need 20m sp to max out a tackler, and thats the first thing you should fly in a fleet.

and here is one for you to think about:
“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”
― Mark Twain

Gevlon said...

@Last anonymous: that's merely reformulating EVE Offline: "In your first 1.5 years you should only log in to update your skill queue and to do something utterly boring, unrewarding and pod-death-guaranteeing". (if you are in scramble range, you are in smartbomb range = you are podkilled)

No thanks. I want to fly a logi so I will fly a logi and not a tackler Rifter.

Anonymous said...

Acceleration Control IV and High Speed Manouvering IV (if you need to use MWD's) are the only things I noticed missing (besides the Logistics skill, which, while IV is the minimum, V is where it shines).

Oh, and Navigation to V.

Babar said...

I fly in drakefleets in my alliance, and they use a perma-mwd fit. Usually the anchor is running around at 900m/s - 1000 m/s, and if you can't keep up, you're very likely to be tackled and killed. I assume it's the same for logistics ships (my alliance uses two fits, perma-mwd and afterburner depending on the doctrine).

As for not playing before 20m sp, usually people start in tacklers (rifters). A T1 drake with T2 defence can be used after about 30 days, and a Blackbird for ECM before that. Logistics is probably 6 months after that again, but the good thing is that logistics are welcome in any fleet usually, so no need to train specifically for a fleet doctrine.

You should probably start shopping around for an alliance/corp sooner rather than later, and then train specifically for their logistic ships. It can make a big difference, for example if they use shield or armor tanking.

Anonymous said...

One thing I suspect you have not taken into account is the raw, feeling in ones gut when first engaging in combat in eve. There's far too many variables and "unknowns", combined with a lack of experience, to ensure a lack of adrenaline rush when engaging. Adrenaline rush, tunnel vision, rookie mistakes, all come together and lead to unnecessary losses. Getting a feel for how you react under such pressure is perhaps the single best reason for flying suicide tackle for the first few dips into pvp. From there, move up.

Anonymous said...

People usually argue that you need a lot of skills at 5, where 4 is fine for "ok" flying the ship.

Especially Hull Upgrades to 5 is important because of a lot of Tech2 Armor plates/energisers/etc. require it.

Same with most of the "base" skills (Up to x3 modifiers), they are required for the T2 stuff.

The argument only becomes religious with high modifier (x12) skills, for example Jump Drive Calibration. For some ships it's required by fleets because it closes the gap between short range jumpers and long range jumpers quite a bit), while for other ships 4 is fine.

Electronics V is disputeable but okay because you can help out with cloaks and cynos, so well worth as a utility skill.

I could iterate over every and each skill with the same arguments: IV is considered "basic", while V is called mandatory within some Fleet operations, always depending on ship/role and utility moves.

So basically, since you will need some Lvl V skills, the first poster is correct in the sense that you should look at each of them according to your role and develop a plan how you will handle them together with your remapping plans.

And sorry to say it, Gevlon: Insulting random people over the net like you did instead of showing the proof of your side of the argument... just shows a big fail in your personality, nothing more, and, which I think is much worse, puts you right among them.

Anonymous said...

"No thanks. I want to fly a logi so I will fly a logi and not a tackler Rifter"

That is WoW thinking. In WoW, healers need zero experience of other roles to heal. As long as people don't go out of range a healer can get do very well with reactive wack-a-mole and use of cooldowns when boss-mods alert them. Everyone has one role and there is very little cross-character support beyond passive buffs.

In EvE, people are doing things that are slightly more complicated than just standing around a nuking. Fleet members need to co-ordinate their actions. A little experience in other roles makes a pilot a much stronger because they can what the fleet needs from them.

I don't see the point in maxing your tackling skills though. You can get some half decent tackler experience in a day one character in an E-Uni blob.

Anonymous said...

Again - please invest more time! By now you should be better at ship fittings than couple months ago.

You didn't answer which logi ship are you going to fly?

lvl3: all armor compensations. There are definitely more important skills for you right now.
Jury rigging IV? Really? Because you are going to use those T2 cap rigs, am I right?
Armor Rigging IV - also can be downgraded to lvl 3
I assume you are going to fly armor logi, so why shield emission systems? (unless you are aiming to Thanatos, but then it will have to be lvl5 anyway and can wait next remap)
Nanite Interfacing -> lvl 3

Regarding SPs: I had my 15m SP pilot specializing in logi, and he could fly almost perfect guardian and scimitar.

Regarding MWD: many many logi setups are based on MWD fits. Yes, even with MWD cap penalties.

Gevlon said...

I understand that T2 armor modules need Hull upgrades 5, but faction and deadspace modules do not. I have to check out their prices before delaying my entrance one more week. I mean if the fitted ship will cost 150M instead of 120, I won't bother training it.

Anonymous said...

MWD Guardians are *extremely* uncommon, Afterburners are the norm.

Energy Management/Energy Systems Operation are nice to have at V but at logi V you will run a standard 4/2 Guardian cap-stable (with only one Energy Transfer on you) even without them.

You should consider training a few levels in the booster-related skills (Biology, Nanite Control, Neurotoxin Recovery)- X-Instinct is a (pvp) Guardian pilot's best friend.

Anonymous said...

Addendum to my 08:37 and 10:19 posts:

downgrade repair systems to lvl 3 (you don't need active tanking for logi anyway!!)
downgrade remote repair systems to lvl 4 (energy mgmt 5 / logi 5 are much better for cap)

Anonymous said...

I realise this is not a discussion forum, but I'd like to address a couple of things:

First, to those that say you need everything to V to even think about going into nullsec: you know this isn't the case as you all advocate getting into fast tackle and getting experience first regardless of your skills. on that note: @Gevlon - tackle range far exceeds smartbomb range. most large fleet engagements (small wormhole or lowsec fleets may be different) don't utilise smartbombs on any ship.

Second: absolutely you need a microwarp drive. if possible, research common fleet doctrines (drakefleet is very popular at the moment because of the 1km/s and the fact that in my alliance at least I make a 1m isk profit everytime I lose one due to reimbursements (it's not the isk, it's the fact that they are throwaway). as a logistics pilot you'll need to keep up with watever fleet you're flying with.

Third: on the other hand, logistics can make or break a fleet. the composition of a drakefleet is 170ish drakes, 20ish logistics and the rest dictors/hictors. as a result a poorly performing logistics pilot has a much larger impact than a drake pilot who doesn't have the skills to perma mwd or tank as well.

Fourth: I realise you'll be flying a guardian - that's your choice. you will need to understand the differences between armor tanked and shield tanked gangs. (I linked in a comment a while ago a youtube video about FC basics which explains very clearly the capabilities of different types of fleets). You may even want to choose your alliance/coalition based on this factor. E.G. The CFC (northern guys) have a tendancy towards drake, tengu, hurricane and maelstrom fleets. These are all shield tanked. Recently the southern coalition has been seen fielding Legion fleets (armor tanked). Choose wisely as a guardian in a drake fleet will be laughed back to the station. you'll want to be flying a scimitar or nothing for those.

Fifth: as for hull upgrades - buffer tanks are everything in null, that extra 5% hit points may mean the difference. also if you're not T2 fit you may be subject to ridicule until you are (regardless of whether faction is better or not).

For what it's worth - I don't believe experience tackling is necessary to understand. I played a mage in WoW and so I chose Kitsune as my first pvp ship even though I had to wait for frigates V. then I moved to falcons, then they nerfed falcons and so now I'm happy with my Onyx. I don't feel my fleet knowledge is gimped because of this, but be aware your learning curve will be huge once you start in fleets.

Anonymous said...

Your forgetting, 5% increase in armor hp. You can fly faction logi without it, but it should be in the level 5 list.

Gevlon said...

@Evemonkey: Guardian is just my first guess, not my final decision.

However if the fleet is shield tanked, why do I need +5% ARMOR HP or armor modules?

Also, why Scimitars and not Basilisks? Basis has much higher output and there should be enough of them to trade caps.

Finally if you think that I give a damn if some retard who can't use the compare tool prefers T2 over faction you don't know me.

IO said...

If the fleet is shield tanked, you need to change part of your training list to shield tanking skills (e.g. Shield Management/Shield Rigging).

Scimitars because they are much faster than Basilisks, and main doctrine ships (Drakes/Maelstroms) don't need energy transfers anyway. Shield fleets are in large part about speed anyway.

Why you see Guardians in armor fleets but no Basis in shield? Firstly because Oneiros used to suck before and therefore unusable, but now you see increasing number of them. Secondly because main armor doctrine ship is Abaddon/Armageddon, which are cap hungry and Guardians can help with that. You don't have this problem in shield fleets.

Anonymous said...

@gevlon I'm not a logi pilot but quoting from goon's wiki (I'm sure they won't mind):

"The logistics ship of choice for shield doctrines. The Scimitar can run cap stable without a cap transfer buddy, making it the best shield logistics. If an Alphafleet has enough of these ships (30+), it can become obscenely difficult to kill."

They do acknowledge that the guardian is the best pos recharger but is not used for mwd fleets due to it being the slowest of the logistics ships.

Dangphat said...

@ Gevlon: One of the reasons the average fleet person would use t2 is because there will be a reimbursement fit that requires them to take t2. If ISK isnt an issue (like yourself) then go for it.

I while back you said you didnt intend to shoot guns/missiles is that still the case? Would you be willing to fly ECM or tackler with no guns in the high slots to gain fleet experience?

And who cares if you get podded? You have contributed to a victory, you will have made a more expensive ship redundant or vulnerable for a period of time and a lost a tiny amount of ISK (or gained with reimbursement) your implants will be tucked away in your jump clone.

You could even start an extra alt so as not to delay any of your others, heading towards something like a falcon. Get it sponsored into an alliance as a newbie and gain a firsthand perspective of how nullsec alliances work.

Gevlon said...

@Dangphat: you can't clone jump in 24 hours. So if you are in a throw-away clone (+2 implants), then you are losing 6500 skillpoints every day.

Dangphat said...

I agree hence why I suggested you do it on an alt/another account. It takes a couple of weeks to have a really basic blackbird that can act as a force multiplier. You can then put that alt on hold while you train for something else, it never needs to get another SP. And it then affords you to use it as a "throw away charactor", still never firing but locking down ships in a blackbird or tackling them in a frigate. You still see the fleet fights, and if you die you laugh and say to yourself " I wish I had warped out quicker when I was targetted"(your main defence)

Anonymous said...

most people don't use implants in nullsec, because you get podded alot anyways, and its common to use pod-kill traveling for large distances.

as for fitting deadspace/officer on your ship, the availability of that stuff isn't that great. And if you are in a fleet, besides performance issues due to lack of skill (which puts the numbers that the FC has of the fleet off), you cannot reship at a carrier, sc, titan with an corporation guardian in the middle of the fight after yours gets blown up and your pod survives - if you don't have the skill for that.

Anonymous said...

Strongly recommend Electronics 5:

- It's a base fitting skill. 5% CPU can be a big deal, depending on fit.
- It's a rank 1 skill and thus fast to train
- Many corp recruiters will auto-reject if you don't have it to 5, citing "lolfail". Agree or not, you'll artificially limit your pool of potential corps.
- It's prereq to all advanced EWAR skills. If you can fly logi, then it's a very short step to fly recon, which has similar fleet support role. Though Amarr recon is not as fleet friendly as Amarr logi.
- is prereq to cyno field theory. Not for flying logi, but again for some flexibility. Can use this alt as cyno-beacon for carrier alt, friendly caps, etc.

Also recommend: astronautics rigging IV. You may find that speed > personal armor.

Acceleration Control III+, Fuel Conservation III+ are missing on the list. Both are no-brainer. (Int/Perc, train with Int/Mem remap obviously)

Science V: why? I don't see a prerequisite chain.

I see you trained EWAR IV. Why? If planning on using any ECM modules, then because of the way ECM works, you shall also train Signal Dispersion III+ (preferably IV), as well as Frequency Modulation and Long Distance Jamming III+. ECM is not a logi's strength though, not really wise to train into it just for logi use. If using ECM drones, then EWAR IV only is sufficient. But I see no drones skills.

Speaking of which, drones skills. Drones are Mem/Perc and thus should be trained on Perc/Will rather than Int/Mem, so I assume you are waiting for remap. Guardian can and should fit 5 armor rep drones/ECM drones. You will need Drones V and Repair Drone Operation III. Do not train for Tech II repair drones, the return on investment is very poor. You will also need some combination of Scout Drone Operation and Ewar Drone Interfacing to get some drone control range. Also you can skip Drone Interfacing (which is usually the most essential drone skill) since it does not benefit ecm or repair drones.

Gevlon said...

@Last anonymous: thanks for the ideas.

Electronics 5 added
Science was a mistake. Jump drive operation needs it, so it's in the late plan. Somehow I mis-learned it now.

Anonymous said...

if you are going into wormholes, astrometrics V, and astrometric support skills all to IV *minimum*.

most serious wormhole corps wont let you near the place if you can't fly an armor tech 3. Some will want tengus for PvE.

Its also worth having 2 toons (seperate accounts) who can do cloaky/scanning. If one gets locked out you can use the other to probe your way back in - or use your spare to keep an eye on enemy holes. Or use one to spawn anoms in the same constellation as your home system.

Anonymous said...

@ Deadspace mods and +5 implants.

While you may be able to afford flying with these, these look bad on kill mails. While this may not bother you, it might bother the people you fly with.

Join a corp/alliance before you decide on ship/fittings to train into...

Anonymous said...

I've spent many years in 0.0 as a capital and logistics pilot, I'll give you some advice:

You are focusing here on skillpoints, which is only half of what will you need. To be a good logistics pilot you need to know how the fleet will work. It is easy to neglect this from your position, as nobody can account for an unknown.

Typically we ask new pilots to fly tacklers because new pilots are poor, and tacklers are cheap. You are in a rather unique position for a new player in that you have plenty of money, thus this requirement goes out the window. So, perhaps we can find an alternative beginner ship for you that won't result in you getting podded, but will teach you ESSENTIAL skills that are too numerous to list here.

Which ship then? A drake. Normally these are off limits to new players due to cost, however they are less than 30 days away, and you are clearly prepared to wait several months anyway. You don't want to disrupt your logistics training, which is fine. I suggest you create a 54 day trial account, then PLEX it once (necessary as trial accounts can't fly drakes), and train for a 30 day drake. For the cost of 500m you can pick up a load of essential skills, then biomass the account afterwards. 500m is not a lot of money in the grand scheme of things, I've lost several times than that on a single module before, and I believe that investment will pay off later (You're going to screw up the first time you hit a gatecamp, or aggress on a station, or shoot the rifter instead of the caracal).

Flying capital ships requires a lot more advanced knowledge: when do you log off, when do you aggress, how do you modify your fit in realtime to adapt to changing circumsdances (combat refit), etc. You should learn these before flying a capital or you're going to die.

NP said...

It seems to me the mentality of "first pvp in a T2 or capital" is, by definition, EVE Offline.

If you want to PVP, then do it at your current SP. You didn't wait to fully minimize out tax and transaction fee to start trading, did you?

I fly t1 hulls with t1 guns (sub 2mil SP), and yet I've got some shiney, high sp kills to my name due to my experience overpowering their SP and isk-fit ships.

Khanh'rhh said...

Has it occured to you that you can purchase a perfect logi pilot for less than 10bil on the character bazaar, legally?

Might be something you want to look at.