Greedy Goblin

Tuesday, March 6, 2012

Griefer-safe EVE life

Griefers are the plague of EVE and make its bad name. They aren't pirates who go for loot but kiddies going for "tears". It's common belief that griefers can't be avoided, they are a menace that can hit you anytime and there is nothing you can do about it. You can of course stand up and start again but you are never safe. You must always look over your shoulder and still they will hit you. EVE is not safe. It's not for "carebears".

I'm completely sure that this belief is the most important reason why many prospective players stay away from this great game. Who wants to play in an environment where a 12 years old kid who stole the credit card of his daddy can destroy your ingame life at will?

What I'm telling here is not a trick to avoid most griefers. No self-restricting rules come like "make a 0-m dock bookmark to every possible station" or "check ships destroyed in last 24 hours statistic every 5 minutes and if it increases in your system instantly dock and log".

The point is neither that griefers are vastly overestimated. This scientific research says that people who fear something see them bigger than they are. Since people fear griefers, they way overestimate their number. If we'd listen to the amount of whine about them, we'd guess that an average person is griefed several times a week. I've never been killed in EVE in high sec. How many exact encounters can you recall that happened to you or someone you personally know (not "some guy my buddys roommate once talked about")?

No. I'm offering you advice that can make you 100% safe from this plague. The griefer is a simple creature, he wants to cause ... [intensive drumming] ... grief. He wants to see some evidence of his target is being sad or angry. His second account is reading the local chat and if you are in the newbie starter corporation, the corporation chat. He may even initiate direct conversation to taunt you. I have no idea what he wants or why he does it, it's completely alien to me, but instead of moralizing or analyzing, just accept his motivation to get "tears".

The griefer will be killed by CONCORD. He surely don't care about it, otherwise he wouldn't do it. That's why he looks unbeatable: he cannot lose anything he cares about, you can. However he very much care about your feelings about his ship blowing up. Remember that he thinks that loss of the ship is the way of suffering and seeing others losing ship is fun. You saw him losing his ship, so you're having fun. All you have to do is make sure that his loss is greater than yours, and somehow communicate this to him. Unless you are doing something stupid like carrying several hundred millions in lowbie ships, the first is given. The game is designed the way that in high security space pirating is not profitable against average targets. You can increase this difference by having a premium insurance. It's not cheap, but a worthy investment, not just ISK but safety-feeling wise.

Now you have to communicate it. The easiest to do so in your bio that you can edit on your character screen. Add something like "I'm paranoid, have my ship max insured and never fly or carry anything I can't replace easily". And do so! If you bluff, you'll still be afraid, even if the bluff works! This way you can never be griefed. Your ship can still be destroyed but all it gives you a good laugh over the idiot who was spectacularly blown up by the CONCORD.

This is the reason why the tag is "philosophy". I doubt if the fear of loss of pixels keep people away from EVE. It's the social idea of being in the mercy of 12 years old kiddies. The solution is recognizing that you are not. They can only harm themselves and give you a good laugh. This way you present them the unsolvable dilemma: "If you rickroll someone who actually likes Never gonna give you up, you are giving him a gift!". Because that is needed: while we don't understand what is fun of destroying some total strangers ship, but a true goblin always have fun when sees M&S suffer because of their own idiocy.

If you get blown up by some of them, please try to start conversation with him and send me the log where he desperately tries to prove that he won and you should be sad now and that he "knows" that you are crying and he is "having fun"! Let's share the laugh on this blog!

Of course the above doesn't mean you should ignore the basic EVE safety rule: never fly or carry anything you can't replace easily. Oh wait, the platinum insurance just replaced your ship, the only cost will be the new insurance.


PS: short business update: Cash + buy orders + sell orders = 912M (500M gift)

45 comments:

Anonymous said...

Again, you fail to understand what Eve is about. This is not WoW. Tears in WoW are completely different from tears in Eve. The fact that non-consensual PvP is allowed is the best thing about Eve. It keeps the most of the M&S away from even trying it.

Also, the first p.s. you wrote about ship insurance is a falacy. It only insures your hull, not your modules, not your cargo. While I think you should insure most of your ships, its not worth it to insure things like T1 industrials. The cargo expanders cost more.

Anonymous said...

I have chars that are on both sides of this debate.

I have 1 char who is a trader, and one who does piracy of various forms.

I agree there is a lot of paranoia, in 5 years in Eve, I have never had problems in High sec, but then I don't AP through Uedama too much. I used to AP much less before they bought in the new mechanics where it actually docks you (I had a habit of forgetting I was on AP and ending up floating in space in a freighter for 45 mins or so)

On my more ethically questionable character, it is not about the ISK, I rarely loot the wrecks (unless it has been a pre-planned team effort), during something like Hulkageddon, it is most definitely NOT about the ISK.

One of the things rarely brought up when people say they have been ganked is whether they were war decced or not at the time...Stupid as it sounds, people do fly freighters, badgers full of shinies through high sec while war-decced, and yes, they do it on AP,they also go AFK mining in an unnamed Hulk, and when you (Quite legitimately, since you are at war) blow them up, they default to "WTF, I got ganked"

You can never compensate for stupid...people flying freighters through lowsec for example ^^ (And, again, I know of several people who do this...god only knows why, I would rather do a ton of jumps in my blockade runner than 1 jump in a freighter in lowsec)

Also, unless something major got changed, only T1 is insurable.

Gevlon said...

@Anonymous: non-consentual PvP shall mean profitable pirating and wars for 0.0 sovereignity.

Ganking is just idiotic.

A trader said...

A head full of implants can get very expensive. Also not covered by insurance.

And high sec suicide gankers don't care what's on your bio, unless it's particularly ridiculous when they might pod you just because of the bio.

Plenty of people will just do it for the killmail. Tears are a bonus.

Steel said...

Still having trouble fathoming the nature of mindless human evil... But I said all I had to say in previous posts and linked links and everything so I won't bother. I do believe that this whole thing is (relatively) overblown and overestimated - just don't do retarded shit and follow some basic rules and you'll be 99.99% safe - I guess you can go through your whole EVE career without being ganked, just like you can drive all your life and never be in an accident, you know... Also, I'm not that experienced in all facets of ganking, having never been ganked in my ~2 weeks I spent in hisec, and having only ganked as part of an organized campaign of terror. But I must confess the thought of mindlessly ganking a random noobship somewhere ( http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForTheEvulz ) did cross my mind a few times but I just couldn't be bothered (effort)

As for the Orca - you got me here, I only know what I've read myself (I'm in 0.0 PvP, /shrug). I asked my corp and yes, the corp hangar can be used with NPC corps, and you can configure your ship so that only you have access. Also, the pilot of the orca always has access to the CH, regardless of corporation settings, mostly to prevent several exploits. Do get a confirmation and more details from someone who actually has one and works with it first hand before you post though.

Oh, and speaking of NPC corps, vast section of the (pvp)playerbase have a big problem with them and all other mechanics used to avoid wardecs, and are pushing for CCP to 'fix' this. I read about this on a ton of forums and blogs: 'consensual PvP and softening/dumbing down MY hardcore_pvp_open_sandbox_with_landmines? Outrageous/fail!' These people...

Gevlon said...

@Trader: if you don't do stupid, there is nothing to mail on the kill. I mean a 14 men gang killing a Charon full of veldspar won't attract anything but laughter from the viewers. Maybe comments like: "I hope you had 20 top-fitted haulers ready to take all the veld away!"

The killmail is bragging right. You must kill something worthy to brag about.

Vincenzo Burnelli said...

Actually Gevlon ganking is often a trade, much like any other career in Eve. There are many parallels with being a trader or industrialist.

The ganker scans ships passing through his system, looking for opportunities. He assesses their cargo, and with his knowledge of the value of items he makes a judgement call on whether he can make a profit by ganking a ship. Items in cargo and modules have a 50% chance to drop. So if he sees a t1 industrial carrying 200m isk worth of goods and he knows his ship + fit costs 50m, he knows he is looking at 50m of profit if he can pull off the gank and loot the wreck with his alt before anyone else gets to it.

There are some moronic gankers to be sure, who are only after killmails and amusement. I think most gankers are motivated by the same thing that motivates every pod pilot in Eve Online, ISK.

Care said...

Nobody in the NPC corp has any access rights. By default this means: No viewing rights, no permission to take something, but still able to load something in your Orca's corporate hangar if there is room left (which can not be seen).

As you are the owner the ship, you have all access to the corporate hangar.

Azuriel said...

I'm completely sure that this belief is the most important reason why many prospective players stay away from this great game.

I'm sure that plays some part of it.

But then again, what exactly have you been doing this whole time? Essentially... running the AH? To get ISK to do what? Do you actually care about the spaceship bits about it, or just the planning (of which you don't even really need to be playing)? I could go farm Mana in Dungeon Defenders, or plan out skill mapping in Glitch or any number of arbitrary things in any number of games.

Point being: why EVE? Why play this game if not for the whole "I could die at any moment" adrenaline boost? Scams and griefing and betrayals are punished everywhere else, but encouraged in EVE. If you have to minimize those negative feelings, you are playing the wrong game. You should be exalting in them.

Gevlon said...

@Vincenzo: that's not ganking, that's profitable pirating.

@Azuriel: the point is to prove that the "evil" EVE is not at all evil. All the carebear games come from the socialist idea that "you need the state to protect you from the big bad evil people". I want to prove that if you are not an idiot or a lazy punk you can do fine in even totally ruthless capitalism.

Steel said...

Not sure if you found this during your googling, but this is a cool story, and maybe you can learn more about EVE from it: http://www.mylootyourtears.com/?p=207 . Anyway, at some point he gives the advice 'don't corp your Orca pilot', so flying Orcas with a NPC corp alt is actually the right thing to do.

Fade Toblack said...

Gevlon, you're still looking for motives behind some of the ship kills - when they do it simply because they can:

This is the killboard for one of the biggest griefing corps:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=alliance_detail&all_id=1364

Take a look down at some of the things killed.

I'm sure the guy in the practically-instantly-warping shuttle thought he could get that faction module past safely. But more to the point there are plenty of kills in that list where there was nothing to gain...

Alkarasu said...

@Gevlon
"if you are not an idiot or a lazy punk you can do fine in even totally ruthless capitalism."

I'm not sure that EVE is all that ruthless. After all, there are unavoidable, resistant to corruption, undefeatablle government in a very large chunk of the map. You can literally eat babies alive while in 0.0, but still Concord will blow up anyone who dares to touch your ship while in hisec. Being in NPC corporation you are safe from wardec, flying safe you are nearly completely protected from gankers. No competitor can bribe some official to throw you out of the buisness. There are literally no way even to really cheat you. In totally ruthless environment there are no protection above what you do to protect yourself.
So, I guess, to really prove that point, you have to move to 0.0/WH eventually.

Peter Petermann said...

hello,

my name is Peter, i'm 31 years old and i'm what you might call a griefer, i harvest tears.

most of us are not 12 year old's with access to a parents credit card. In fact, most people i know who occasionally gank others for the fun of it are older than me.

so, why do i do it? foremost because its fun - i don't even need to profit from it, i have other income sources, for me its to some extend trading.

And i've lost ships in highsec to other players before aswell - in the last 6 month there where 2 tries to suicide gank my freighter, 11 runs on my blockade runner (i lost two of those by suicides in that time).

I don't read your bio before i shoot at you. I dont read your shipname. I might not even read your name - all i look at is if the corp/alliance i'm in has set you blue or not.

Is this really giving eve a bad image? hell no. this is what makes eve different to all those mickey mouse games like wow.

Space in EVE is a dark and dangerous place - you should allways keep that in mind. We, the capsuleers are immortal demi-gods, we are supposed to do things where the motivation is unclear to others. With me killing you, no matter if the profit is isk or your tears i contribute to this dark atmosphere.

As a corp mate of mine once put it: My largest reward in eve is knowing that when i blow up another ship that on the other end of the world there might be a keyboard thrown out of the window.

This is what i want the game to be, and contributing to this atmosphere is reward enough.

Whenever you try to explain the motivations with business / profit explanations, you reward people like me.
Whenever you give hints like 'write this and that in your bio' you entertain us.

Gevlon said...

@Peter: could you explain how is it "fun"? I mean running around and blowing up random ships looks to me as exciting as watching the grass grow, or grinding random mobs in WoW.

Also, I don't understand why would anyone throw a keyboard out of the window because he lost a ship. It must be calculated risk in eve, he grabs the insurance, buys a new ship and done.

This whole "griefing" thing is completely bizarre to me.

testarossa said...

Regarding the orca, I own one myself and talk from experience. The orca pilot got 100% access to what's in it. It doesn't allow members of a Npc corp access to it, and people you fleet with can deposit, but not see into the orca corp hangar.

Anonymous said...

@Gevlon

You cannot insure a freighter for the cost of replacing it....that is without the cost of what was in it..

Imagine you are tasked with moving a serious amount of goodies, whether it be minerals, skillbooks, whatever, 800k m2 is some serious iskies (One of my friends moved his corps stuff in a freighter, took about 10 runs), and just as you get within a few jumps of home, BOOOOM.

Last time I bought a freighter, it was about 1bn isk, the insurance payout is lolwut, so they are not insured, the contents of said freighter is probably several times the cost of the ship, again contents are not insurable...This is why people throw keyboards out of the window.

Do some quick math on your Badger II...check the insurance payout, now calculate the value of a full cargohold of whatever it is you transfer, and then add on the cost of the ship + modules, and see if insurance still covers it.

Anonymous said...

I understand why you have come to this conclusion, since you have most likely not been part of the 'chats' which goes on within the griefer/pirate corps.

The thing is, the griefers are not just after your tears, they are also after hilarious killmails. As far as they are concerned, the after-combat chat afterwards is a bonus, I trust you have read in-depth about the 'Hulkageddon' events within the past. (Before people call this 'profitable' pirating, it really isn't. It was quite simply just suicide ganks with the goal of simply causing as much damage as they can.)

The pirate corps, which come in play, also reward griefers for killmails, since as far as they are concerned, blowing up any kind of ship in hi-sec is 'worth it'.

The big issue you will be facing Gevlon is the 'ganking' ships are really not all that expensive to fit out to blow your ships out of the water. A Thrasher with T1 fits is usually enough to take out a good deal of ships in the 'low' range, they aren't all that expensive either.

From what I am attempting to understand from your post, your objective is to make the griefer suffer more damage than you would. You feel that your protection is the insurance. While you are in your low tier ships, this may be the case, but when you are in higher tiered ships, you will want to have modules which make them worth their weight. That is when the insurance > cost really tips the other way.

You always could of course stay in your badger II, but that wouldn't really be much fun for you.

-the mittani sends his regards.

Alkarasu said...

@Gevlon
"could you explain how is it "fun"?"

I think you can do that yourself. More then that, you already did before, on multiple occasions. Peter here is a perfect example of a strict follower of an Inner Ape. And for an ape domination doesn't have to be motivated by something else, then by the need for domination itself. Evolution made it clear, that the most dominant ape gets all the females, and his offspring have much greater chance to be born. Games like EVE warp this instincts to more complex behavioral patterns, but the goal - the goal never changes.

"Also, I don't understand why would anyone throw a keyboard out of the window because he lost a ship."

The very same reason - he had been pushed down the domination chain. It's unpleasant, and, depending of self-esteem, can be quite painful. And that, of course, come before any reason can kick in. Therefore, keyboards and windows meet more often, then it's rational.

Gevlon said...

@Alkarasu: I don't accept that exactly because the target is random. You did not climb higher on any top chart, nor you defeated some rival. You gained no status or power. You just wasted your time.

Alkarasu said...

@Gevlon
"I don't accept that exactly because the target is random."

That's you. And you are very rational, most of the times. You need a clear reason, a visible goal, a calculated risk, a way to show your mind, that you won. Most griefers don't. The very act of domination over someone (in form of blowing his property, or, even better, causing a fit of powerless rage) is enough, it is rewarded by they own organism just the same, as the victory over some important enemy with some tasty reward. Parts of the brain, responsible for emotional reactions, don't have any capacity to understand the difference anyway. A simple trigger: someone cries - you won. It's purely social reaction, if you don't have the very same (and you tend to sound proud of how little social reactions affect you), you can't relate to it. You can understand it origins and effects, though.

Gevlon said...

@Alkarasu: so my guess of them being 12 years old is true in a sense that they are irrational, immature people who do something stupid that most of us outgrow?

Alkarasu said...

@Gevlon
Yes, in this sense, it is true, though "most of us outgrow" part isn't the case. Most people never outgrow that, most learn only to mask it under some "serious buisness" guise.

Peter Petermann said...

two parts because comments cant be long:


@Peter: could you explain how is it "fun"? I mean running around and blowing up random ships looks to me as exciting as watching the grass grow, or grinding random mobs in WoW.

the knowledge that another player is at the other side of the kill (to me) makes alot of difference to killing a random mob in WoW. The main reason why i love EVE and dislike WoW to me is that WoW is a static world, where the outcomes of what i do have no meaning at all. In EVE, if i kill a freighter full of veldspar, a mining frigatte, or a noobship, i kinda have a real impact on what someone else is doing in the game. (see answer to second question aswell) Someone might quit EVE because of it (bad for him, but probably hes not made for this game then) or he might look into improving his play, or he might find a way to get back to me.

When i kill an industrial ship, a noob frigatte or so, i'm competing with others - not necessary with the pilot of the vessel i kill - but it affects my stats on the killboards, knowing that i have a isk efficiency in killing stuff that is above 92% is fun, working on getting it higher is fun, knowing that a pilot who runs into me has only 14% of survival is like an achievement, just better than any badge. Competition is fun, and you can make almost everything to a competition. Look at hulkageddon, while i didn't take part, that competition on who suicide ganks most hulks was a great event.

Knowing that someone lost something because i planned and executed the gank gives a special satisfaction - opposed to killing someone in wow where he still has all his gear once he raises at the graveyard. And thats allready part of the answer to:

Also, I don't understand why would anyone throw a keyboard out of the window because he lost a ship. It must be calculated risk in eve, he grabs the insurance, buys a new ship and done.

Most players, especially if they don't chose to go for a true PVP path emotionally attach to their ships after a while, be it because they had to grind to get it, or be it because they had some special moment related to that ship - hell, even i was a bit sad when i lost my officer fit nightmare that i used to pirate in (the guys who killed it still have my kudos for the planning and the execution of the trap for it).

I've heard on teamspeak how people smashed their keyboard after doing something stupid and losing their ship, ive seen hatemail some people send out, i've had people sending me their respects for killing them - there are alot of ways how people react - and if people don't i either move on to the next, or i'll do it again with the same person till he reacts.

Peter Petermann said...

part two of two:

This whole "griefing" thing is completely bizarre to me.
Personally i kinda laugh when people start talking about 'consentual pvp', logging in to eve is consent. If you don't want to lose your ship, protect it, scout, teamwork, have an escort, know where the people who are out for you hang out - better infiltrate them. In the dark world eve is you need to adapt and cooperate to survive.

to quote CCP Wrangler: "EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for."

also i remember some discussion with several game designers of several mmo, cant remember which ccp dude was there, but they where talking about level differences, level caps for pvp and stuff, and the ccp dude is not really taking part. At the end of the discussion the hosts asks him "don't you have anything to say about this" and the ccp dude just stands up, looks arround, takes the microphone and states "eve online is not fair"

maybe its something about living in a world with so many social conventions, so many rules to follow, that it is kinda nice to be in a game where i can set my own rules (or lose trying). maybe it is just about feeding the inner beast, maybe its because its a difference to the hour long ops we go on in 0sec, the constant battle for sovereignty, for moongoo, for power..

or maybe it is just because i can.

Peter Petermann said...

Alkarasu is right in some of his points,

@Gevlon what you ignore when you say 'because the target is random' is that the competition i'm having is not.
if i compare my killboard stats to a corpmates, the 1 kill of a noobfriggate might be the difference between him or me having more kills.

Fade Toblack said...

You did not climb higher on any top chart

You added another kill to your KB stats, and the ISK value of the ship to your total value killed stat.

There are competitions between griefers to see who can grief the most players/most ISK.

Gevlon said...

@Peter: it mostly explains is. Since being antisocial is defined as "treating people as objects" I'm simply can't see the difference between an NPC ship and a player ship of equal strength. And I am happy with it.

@Fade Toblack: then the chart sucks. If easy kills matter than the position depends mostly on play time. You grind the newbies the same way as arthasdklol grinds mobs to get exalted with some faction.

Belloche said...

The above comment from CARE is correct about the Orca. Even if you are in a starter npc corp, you have access to all of your corporate hangar divisions in your orca. The 40,000 m3 of space is unscannable by players but IS scannable by NPC's (so don't carry contraband drugs you will get busted) and if the ship is destroyed the corporate hangar drops NOTHING! Also, if you put a Damage control in your low and use reinforced bulkheads you have more HP to destroy then a freighter which makes a gank that much harder for the griefers.

mbp said...

I think you worry too much about griefers' feelings Gevlon. You are a businessman and griefers feelings are irrelevant. Indeed griefers themselves are irrelevant other than as a risk you must factor into your calculations. Balance the risk verus potential reward and make your decisions accordingly.

A lot is made of the fact that any ship in EVE can be blown up but it is also true that every single thing in EVE can be replaced with ISK. So what if you lose your ship and your implants. You are earning more than enough to replace them.

Extreme caution may be justified for a new player who is learning the ropes and does not yet undertsand the risks but if you keep playing that way forever then you will miss out on many lucrative business opportunities for fear of losing some utterly replaceable ships.

Casares said...

The tip you are giving out today (show the griefer that he has lost more than you did) is wrong, making your entire article (and your claim about how to make EVE 100% safe) obsolete.

You can safely assume that a griefer has
- too much ISK and
- too much free time
to bother even the slightest, independent on how lopsided the losses of both of you are in your favor. His gain comes from totally different sources than the material win/loss comparison. See Peter's and Alkarusu's posts.

The only possible reaction is no reacion at all.

The fact alone that you contacted the griefer shows already that you care about the kill. See again Peter's comment: " ... and if people don't [react] i either move on to the next, or i'll do it again with the same person till he reacts."

But even in the best scenario (no reaction from you whatsoever) you will have lost some isk and time (regardless how few it is), which means you are NOT 100% safe.

Casares said...

On a more abstract level:

I find your disability to comprehend the irrational nature of humans really disturbing by now. You build theories and write articles based on assumptions that don't hold a simple reality check.

You wrote:
"Since being antisocial is defined as "treating people as objects" I'm simply can't see the difference between an NPC ship and a player ship of equal strength.".

YOU might not see the difference, a lot (I dare to say most) people do. The fact that griefing and its motivation is alien to YOU doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Nor that it doesn't matter if it doesn't matter to YOU.

This very much feels like the current discussions in economic theory: there are a lot of beautiful and complex economic models based on the assumption of a "homo economicus" as actor. Yet, it's pretty obvious that humans don't fulfill the assumptions - and strange enough, those theories fail (or are at least incomplete) to explain the real world economy.

It's nice entertainment to theorize about certain topics (I wouldn't read your blog otherwise), but very often when you give concrete tips like today I just sit there, puzzled about how disconected your tip is to (my) reality.

Peter Petermann said...

@Gevlon ok, if thats your definition, i wouldn't say antisocial requires objectification, but yeah, objectification is antisocial.

however if you speak about motivations of other players your clearly are not objectifying but discussing social behaviour, which kinda validates making the split between npc and pc

Anonymous said...

Gevlon, to understand those who derive pleasure from 'griefing', you need to become a griefer.

This is a good case for another of your experiments!

Although you already did experience this... in WoW, when you started an Alliance PvP guild trying to drive out the M&S horde. If you read back on your posts, you'll find there was not only logical, rational reporting, but also a lot of gloating and making fun of the M&S --- ie, you took joy in their ineptitude and in dominating them, and therefore took joy in griefing them.

Also, if you want to hurt a griefer financially, it's not just about comparable cost -- it is about comparable cost relative to their wealth.

Buggrit said...

A correction: T2 is insurable, but only a small % of it. Still very worth it if you're going to PVP as 3x something is better than nothing.

As for your efforts, part of the hassle can be countered by skills.

An interceptor fit for align speed or an assault frig fit for resistance can allow decent travel times in relative safety.
Even an Iteron can be tanked a bit, you just sacrifice cargo space. This is not PVP: tank shield AND armor.
If you're hauling a T2 ship somewhere, fly it and add a passive tank in case somebody is feeling smart-assy.

Make insta-undock marks. Get a fast mwd frigate, exit station and accelerate forward to say 200k. This is fast. Compensate for random exit angle, try to hit an average.

When you use them, you exit at full speed from the station and just go.

As for valuable cargoes, there are... shinier shinies. Sometimes you got to carry them.
Make sure that what ship you're carrying them in costs more to blow up than they can get from the cargo. This is VERY possible. 10 tornados with artys can ruin your day, but those 10 die and they cost over 600 mil. Since only 50% of your stuff drops, roughly, you can figure out the value of the payout needed to break even.
If you fit hard enough, those 10 will not cut the cheese.
Unless they're specifically fit for you, they will NOT be ready for a fully tanked ship.
A lot of the ganks in faction ships happen to mission ships - all active, no passive. Don't be a dumbass with a 4 billion active fit worth only a lolmail.

Raymond said...

Back when I played EVE, I was doing a quest with a corpmate of mine. A random player jumped out of nowhere, took the quest item my corpmate needed, and opened fire on us. He blew up my partner, and I barely managed to kill him. I looted both wrecks (both my partner's and his), so he essentially lost everything to me. After that?

He sent me an in-game mail thanking me for the pvp, and saying that he had a lot of fun even though he lost.

Not everybody in the game is an evil 12 year old pirate. Some people really do just enjoy that side of the game.

AureoBroker said...

The orca's hangar can only be accessed by corp members in your fleet.
Also useable in npc corps.

Rodos said...

Here's a goblinish idea: When the pirate contacts you to gloat, take the opportunity to offer to sell him a new ship to replace the one CONCORDE disintegrated.

As for Peter and his ilk, the reason that he still feels good about destroying a target that is of low value, unskilled at PvP, or simply uninterested in returning fire is because Peter is already at the bottom of the "dominance scale". He will never admit it, even to himself, but it's true. He has not gained the respect that he feels he deserves through regular social means, so he invents a new scale - a griefer scoreboard - so he only needs to compare himself to like-minded individuals.

Take a look at chimp society, it's not the successful alpha males that bully others and steal their food, or harass and rape females. Ganking is a game for losers, pure and simple. It is the last resort fun for people who cannot achieve respect and success elsewhere.

Anonymous said...

..Gevlon, I was thinking of many elaborate answers, but I'm not going to go that far, as the reason is simple.

Because it feels good.

I've lost billions from ruining someone elses fun. I've been compensated by their tears.

Just as in WoW BGs, you tried to manipulate your team via harassing comments in local, I have and do manipulate the target in giving me what I want: him crying.

I think back on some of my griefs, and I do not regret them. They were fun. They felt good. Targets losing millions is the end game in Eve.

And don't say that you can make it not worth the grifters while. Need to raise standing for your trading venture? Well, I'll gank your Raven, which insurance will cover, but the 100's of millions in mods that are destroyed or dropped will not be paid for. I.E. you won't be in a forfeit ship for ever. And if you are, because being scared of griefers, well my friend. We REALLY ruined your game play.

Hell, even you losing the money it takes to insure your ship is worth it.

And if losing 1, 2, 3 of your ships doesn't get a reaction from you, well now I will grief to the death of me until you rue the day that you decided to try robe above emotion.

You will be tanked, camped, griefed, taunted, posted on the forums, untl you can't take any more. Or until the whole community takes it as a challenge to be the one to break you. Or make you quit, whatever.

Your asocial routine has a major flaw: it is not dynamic. Look at a person as a number to make a buck- good.

Look at a person as your end boss- good.

Both are very satisfying, and can be achieved at the same time.

Azuriel said...

All the carebear games come from the socialist idea that "you need the state to protect you from the big bad evil people".

No, no, no.

The carebear games come from the demand of players who don't want to have to worry about bad things. Telling someone "You can be just as safe in EVE, just do X, Y, Z" is destined to fail, by definition. It is not just they believe they shouldn't have to to take all these precautions, they don't want to.

And, again, all for what? Let's assume you succeed in your goal of taking the teeth out of EVE. Now a bunch of players get to... what? Mine ore? Blowing up peoples' spaceships is the whole point of the game! Yeah, yeah, people can create their own exploration or ISK-gaining goals... but they can do the same exact thing in any number of games. The only thing that sets EVE apart is the wanton killing of other players in high-risk environments.

EVE is ultimately about fighting on the bridge in AB. If that doesn't make sense to you, go read some Nietzsche:

“’Useful’ in the sense of Darwinist biology means: proved advantageous in the struggle with others. But it seems to me that the feeling of increase, the feeling of becoming stronger, is itself, quite apart from any usefulness in the struggle, the real progress: only from this feeling does there arise the will to struggle—“
--Friedrich Nietzsche, The Will to Power

“Nihilism does not only contemplate the “in vain!” nor is it merely the belief that everything deserves to perish: one helps to destroy. This is, if you will, illogical; but the nihilist does not believe one needs to be logical. It is the condition of strong spirits and wills, and these do not find it possible to stop with the No of “judgment”: their nature demands the No of the deed. The reduction to nothing by judgment is seconded by the reduction to nothing by hand.”
--Nietzsche, The Will to Power

Anonymous said...

I've been on every side of this debate over the years. From my experiences there's 3 main motivations behind suicide ganking - if you really to protect yourself you need to consider all 3.

1) Money, which I know you know all about.

2) Killmails, which are a commodity unto themselves. You won't run into KM farmers too much in haulers (since they're not worth many points on pretty much any killboard), in other ships keep drones out and they'll avoid you because they don't want a lossmail (deaths to CONCORD or any other NPC don't count, but if you tag them with anything at all you'll be credited with killing them)

3) Tears / bored highsec lolops. You can't do much about these except learn who to look out for. Again though, these mostly focus on belts and miners. Keep in mind that posts like this only feed these people - they don't care about ISK, be it yours of theirs, they just want to see you get bent out shape about something you cannot understand and can do nothing to prevent.

There's no question suicide ganking has greatly increased in popularity over the last couple of years. Whether or not it's a problem is an open question, but Crucible definitely did lower the investment required, despite the removal insurance payouts.

Catalysts can take down pretty much any T1 indy (excluding hilarious battle fits), mining barge, and even Hulks in 0.7 and down for about 6M, assuming 50% module recovery and after looting/salvaging the target on alt it's usually a break-even operation. Even if nothing can be looted, 13M for a gank catalyst is a pittance to most anyone who's been playing over a year.

Same with larger hulls - the new Tier 3 battlecruisers (particularly the Tornado) completely offset what would have been an increased cost of suicide ganking in battleships. They can fit the same guns, do the same damage, they can't tank worth anything but that hardly matters in a highsec gank.

I don't forsee this situation changing too much anytime soon, since CCP has said repeatedly they don't want to turn highsec into a true safe zone and as long as highsec is seen as being filled with soft targets that depend on CONCORD to defend them there will always be criminal elements attracted to that.

Buggrit said...

@Gevlon,

As some pointed you are failing in the evaluation of your opponent.

Do not apply your way of thinking to his, because it is totally different.
Do not deny it, because denying reality is the M&S way.

Accept it and deal with it.

Limit your possible losses, use bookmarks tactically, diminish the window of opportunity when they can hit you, make it hard for them to break you, play smart. Remember not to take such ridiculously crippling measures that they've effectively won.

But do not say you can convince them to stop, or make it not worth their while, or that there isn't a point. There is, its just outside your plane of reference.

Anonymous said...

My alt has 66 kills atm, most of them solo kills of hi-sec carebears. I have not lost a single ship to CONCORD.

Not all griefing follows your narrow definition. Understanding agro mechanisms, corp mechanics, directional scanning, ship capabilities and weaknesses and general situational awareness make griefing one of the most intensive activities in EVE. Flip a can in the middle of a five ship corp mining op and the adrenaline WILL flow.

The argument you are making appeared on the EVE forums on day one of the game. They say griefing is illogical, immature, not in accord with someones made-up "Space Bushido". It rages on. And still we roam the systems. Because it is VERY fun.

Anonymous said...

Azuriel said...

Now a bunch of players get to... what? Mine ore? Blowing up peoples' spaceships is the whole point of the game! Yeah, yeah, people can create their own exploration or ISK-gaining goals... but they can do the same exact thing in any number of games. The only thing that sets EVE apart is the wanton killing of other players in high-risk environments.

Now you're missing a good couple of pretty major reasons for playing EVE. Show me one MMO with as complex and complete a player economy as EVE. Within a sci-fi setting. With effectively hundreds of different ships. Because I know from a good 20-30 people, out of 40-50 I've spoken to about these things, that they would instantly leave EVE and play a game like that if it were less griefer-friendly. Currently, it's a pure monopoly thing - EVE is the ONLY game that meets these criteria, and if you want that, you have to put up with the griefers.

Anonymous said...

Having played various games over the years that allow PVP in one form or another, after some friends were telling me about EVE I decided to give it a try and see what all of the fuss was about.

When I first got in, it was obvious that this wasn't a point and shoot game, there was much to learn and even more to digest. An infinite number of combinations and variations limited only by one's understanding and imagination. I though to myself; holy sh.t; this is what I have been wanting my whole life!

I trained and read the helps in EVE and did the missions with Aura and moved on to better/real missions and over the course of a few months; I had hit a stage where I thought I could present myself to a corp that specializes in PVP without showing up on their doorsteps helpless, hapless and with no foundation in skills.

I was quickly accepted into a corp and we immediately set out to PVP. We went straight to a belt and shot up a miner from a corporation that our corp had just gone to war with.

Needless to say they guy flamed out right there and they podded him. I couldn't believe it. A MINER!? We are a 30 member corp who just wardecced a mining corp of 3 people. WTF.

We got back to the station and I asked our CEO if those guys robbed us or something and he stated that they did nothing to us, we were just needing to kill some miners as nobody should just sit out in a belt all day shooting at rocks.

I said, I thought we did PVP here in this corp and he said that we did. So I looked back through all of the corps we had been to war with and every one of them was a mining corp.

I went back to the CEO and said how is it PVP against miners? Let's go get some other corps that do PVP and shoot them up. Even in WOW most people PVP their equal or near to it.

Anyways, I got tossed because I am not a true PVP person or so I was told. How funny, I am actually the only true PVP person I think that has played EVE. So I quit the game because PVP in EVE is for pussies who beat up people who don't, won't or can't fight back.

Yes, you can go to EVE and PVP but it should be changed to be PUVPE for Pussies Versus People. If you think killing miners is PVP while you are in a t3 cruiser, come to WOW, we will show you true PVP.