I wrote how gold bit fits better to a non-fixed roster (casual) guild than any other. However there is much more here: using gold bid naturally makes your roster more open to players!
To understand why, first we have to recognize that there are 7 different types of armor and everyone wants only one for main spec: cloth, int leather, agi leather, int mail, agi mail, int plate, strength plate. For rings and necklaces there are 3 types, int, agi, str. For weapons there are melee, ranged and caster types. There are sub-types, but I ignore them since reforging allow to "fix" a hit-int item into a healer item which is better than a previous tier healer item.
Let's say that for an average loot you compete with 20% of the raid. This competition is inherent and does not depend on loot system. He rolls against you, he bids against you DKP or gold or the loot council can vote for him against you. The only ways to decrease this competition is to remove them from the raid or making sure to pick the most geared ones who won't need your items.
However the other 80% is not your competitor. Will they want gear or not is not your concern. But wipe count and run speed is. The more geared these players are, the faster the run, so you are still interested to pick the most geared ones. This means that always the same players go raid, even if it's not in the rules. Simple personal interests of the raid members dictate to pick them. Even if the guild is formally casual, a non-core member won't get spot unless core members are missing.
Here comes gold bid: in every other loot system the non-competing classes are loot-irrelevant. If a strength item drops, and you are a cloth caster, you get nothing. It's true for DKP too. You get your DKP for being present in the raid, if the boss would drop nothing at all, you wouldn't get less DKP. While other players bid DKP on the loot, so you get higher on the DKP ranking, it's irrelevant as those players are not your competitors. If you are a caster, you can't care less about the DKP standing of a rogue, as he'll never bid against you.
However in gold bid system you get a share from the pot after the loot you can't use. If the boss drops a strength plate and it sells for 10000G, you just got 1000G. If it would be disenchanted, you'd get 20G (as a shard goes for 200G). So unlike in all other loot systems, you are interested in bringing players who want the loot you don't. If you are a caster, and you go with full geared plate melee, you'll get 20G/str plate. If you go with people who need gear, you'll get much more!
So, if you use gold bid, 80% of the raid members would prefer the undergeared guy over the geared one, assuming he won't make too many wipes. This is the reason why everyone get a chance in our guild on farm raid. The best thing is that if the raid leader is corrupt and wants to maximize his own income, he will bring undergeared people who don't compete with him, so the guild retain a large roster, giving chance to everyone to raid except the competitors of the leader.
Theoretically this benefit could be implemented into a DKP system if it's closed. The raid members get the DKP that someone bids. If all loot is disenchanted, no one gets DKP, if there is a bid war, lot of DKP is distributed. However this has the problem of setting the initial DKP. As no DKP is created, people can't start with 0. OK, let's give 100 DKP to every member when he joins the guild. However it makes the raid open to ninjaing: the guy burns his starter 100DKP and the gquits and goes to another guild. Or simply don't raid more. In gold bid system you bring your gold with you from outside when you join.
If you want your guild to have a large roster, just implement the gold bid system and see the invisible hand handling everything else.
PS: to answer the dumbest comment "people don't need gold": if you use gold bid, gold is loot, so everyone wants it.
To understand why, first we have to recognize that there are 7 different types of armor and everyone wants only one for main spec: cloth, int leather, agi leather, int mail, agi mail, int plate, strength plate. For rings and necklaces there are 3 types, int, agi, str. For weapons there are melee, ranged and caster types. There are sub-types, but I ignore them since reforging allow to "fix" a hit-int item into a healer item which is better than a previous tier healer item.
Let's say that for an average loot you compete with 20% of the raid. This competition is inherent and does not depend on loot system. He rolls against you, he bids against you DKP or gold or the loot council can vote for him against you. The only ways to decrease this competition is to remove them from the raid or making sure to pick the most geared ones who won't need your items.
However the other 80% is not your competitor. Will they want gear or not is not your concern. But wipe count and run speed is. The more geared these players are, the faster the run, so you are still interested to pick the most geared ones. This means that always the same players go raid, even if it's not in the rules. Simple personal interests of the raid members dictate to pick them. Even if the guild is formally casual, a non-core member won't get spot unless core members are missing.
Here comes gold bid: in every other loot system the non-competing classes are loot-irrelevant. If a strength item drops, and you are a cloth caster, you get nothing. It's true for DKP too. You get your DKP for being present in the raid, if the boss would drop nothing at all, you wouldn't get less DKP. While other players bid DKP on the loot, so you get higher on the DKP ranking, it's irrelevant as those players are not your competitors. If you are a caster, you can't care less about the DKP standing of a rogue, as he'll never bid against you.
However in gold bid system you get a share from the pot after the loot you can't use. If the boss drops a strength plate and it sells for 10000G, you just got 1000G. If it would be disenchanted, you'd get 20G (as a shard goes for 200G). So unlike in all other loot systems, you are interested in bringing players who want the loot you don't. If you are a caster, and you go with full geared plate melee, you'll get 20G/str plate. If you go with people who need gear, you'll get much more!
So, if you use gold bid, 80% of the raid members would prefer the undergeared guy over the geared one, assuming he won't make too many wipes. This is the reason why everyone get a chance in our guild on farm raid. The best thing is that if the raid leader is corrupt and wants to maximize his own income, he will bring undergeared people who don't compete with him, so the guild retain a large roster, giving chance to everyone to raid except the competitors of the leader.
Theoretically this benefit could be implemented into a DKP system if it's closed. The raid members get the DKP that someone bids. If all loot is disenchanted, no one gets DKP, if there is a bid war, lot of DKP is distributed. However this has the problem of setting the initial DKP. As no DKP is created, people can't start with 0. OK, let's give 100 DKP to every member when he joins the guild. However it makes the raid open to ninjaing: the guy burns his starter 100DKP and the gquits and goes to another guild. Or simply don't raid more. In gold bid system you bring your gold with you from outside when you join.
If you want your guild to have a large roster, just implement the gold bid system and see the invisible hand handling everything else.
PS: to answer the dumbest comment "people don't need gold": if you use gold bid, gold is loot, so everyone wants it.
24 comments:
One problem with this system is that it presupposes that everyone wants gold, and that's simply not true.
For a large number of end-game players, i.e. players that can raid hard-modes at all, gold simply has no value. They already have enough, from dailies, AH, and raids, that they already have next to nothing to spend it on. What good is gold bid to them?
Anonymous: You didn't see the part of the post referring to this system creating CASUAL raiding, did you?
For HM raiders, this system isn't much useful, as they got fixed core groups most of the time.
Gevlon: "PS: to answer the dumbest comment "people don't need gold": if you use gold bid, gold is loot, so everyone wants it."
You're committing a causal fallacy. Let me paraphrase what you said:
"If you use rat kebab bid, rat kebab is loot, so everyone wants it."
Considering the high balances of gold sitting in peoples' banks, extra gold is about as useful as a rat kebab - there is no use for it for someone who is already geared. You are presupposing that the geared members are happy to raid with undergeared people, because they will earn gold that they can use to win upgrades. But the geared people don't need upgrades, and are likely to have sufficient stocks of gold, so what other motivation do they have? Nothing.
If you don't spend your gold, an extra 1000g is almost as useless as an extra rat kebab, except that it doesn't waste space in your inventory/bank.
The whole point of gold bid is that gold = loot. If you have more gold than you know what to do with, it gives you something to do with it. It gives value to the what would otherwise be valueless.
Is there an addon which implements a closed (secret) auction with the item going to the top bidder at the price of the second highest? IMO this would be the most fair auction style for raids.
with DKP the most active DKP Raiders hold sway over the Loot Distribution. With GDKP it's the ones with the most Gold.
I have always found GDKP Runs very practical for PUGs but in a Casual Guild, GDKP or DKP don't relally make that much of a difference.
No Loot System is perfect and can always be exploited in some way.
Gold bidding is similar to a zero sum DKP system, except that it's not closed: you can inject funds from outside :)
It's indeed ideal for casual players. I am pretty casual nowadays and I can imagine raiding in a GDKP system.
Squishalot: You're right that the argument is a fallacy, but the conclusion is still true in some sense. Once you are geared enough, you don't need any more gold if what you want is loot. But in that case, once you are geared enough raiding is useless for you anyway. So if geared people are to get any utility at all it must be from the experience of raiding itself. Either they are ok with raiding with the rest of the casual, undergeared raid, saving up gold for when the next patch hits, or they are not, and would do better to find a more fixed, hardcore group to raid with.
I don't think this is a failing of the gold bid system so much as the simple fact that some people prefer to team up with equally skilled people, so maybe they are better off doing just that, having outgrown casual raiding.
In our guild the player with the most gold was also the one that contributed the least to a raid success and made the most mistakes.
Which means in a gold bid system he would be the one getting most of the cloth drops, while the healer who made him survive the fire he stood in only gets some shiny pieces.
Either everyone has a surplus of money, or you have a max amount you are allowed to bring into a raid to even things out. Like the different money ranges at poker tables.
Injecting gold from the outside is easy.
Zero-Sum DKP systems work better, once the gold-need is out of the equation (and it is, for 90%+ of the raiders).
It'd just be rewarding to AH tycoons who make 50k a week from their 'other' game.
The system to work requires that everyone involved values the same amount of gold roughly the same. This is not true because for a "goblin" 1000G is pocket change but for a "broke" could be his whole wealth.
This means it can work well only between same wealth-class players. Given that pugging casuals should roguhly belong to the same category it might work reasonably well, but as soon as you get a goblin or a broke in the group the system will show its problems.
Not that I agree with Gevlon but the argument that geared people don't need gold so therefore won't participate is a fallacy.
If they really are geared then they won't raid period. They don't need gear or gold. So this line of argument against gold as an incentive is a non sequitur.
"The system to work requires that everyone involved values the same amount of gold roughly the same. This is not true because for a "goblin" 1000G is pocket change but for a "broke" could be his whole wealth. As soon as you get a goblin or a broke in the group the system will show its problems."
^ What problems? The goblin buys up all the loot he needs, the broke gets a ton of gold as his share of the pot. He's not broke anymore and can bid on the next run or even the next item.
After almost 6 months not playing, I played Wow again. I checked the AH and it looked like the economy mostly died in the last 6 months. But I was reminded again it is still the best MMO. Gold bid probably is the best way to spend money now. I didn't see anything on the AH that I would want to spend it on.
Some of your arguments are already answered in other gevlons GDKP posts, for example you saying someone with a lot of gold will get all the loot isn't true in a any time frame longer than one or maybe two raids, since the gold goes to the other raiders, their gold stock increases while the buyers decreases, eventually creating a balance. Everytime the rich one wants to get an item he'll have to pay more to get it since money from his last purchase is now used to bid against him.
I created a somewhat casual raiding guild (we're casual in the sense we don't play a lot, but we have a fairly constant roster, 14 raiders in a 10 man guild) together with some friends a few months ago, and for our first couple of weeks raiding we used GDKP. It worked reasonably well, but we experienced some major flaws.
A few people in the guild (me included) had a lot more gold than everyone else, and as a result got all the loot they wanted. It wasn't really a lot of help to everyone else that they would have enough gold to challenge us in a few months if this kept going. There's also the "gold arms race" factor of it. I got tired of gold making when I hit the gold cap just before christmas and realised there was nothing left in the game to spend my gold on except for stupid vanity mounts and outbidding my guildies for loot. And I didn't really want to spend hours making gold just to deny my guildies any chance of loot.
We also discovered that in 10 man raids many of the items have no competition at all, and would hence go for the minimum bid, and when there was competition most of the time only one of the bidders had serious amounts of gold.
We changed from GDKP to EPGP a few weeks ago, and we're much more happy with that. We're able to award EP at whatever rate we see fit, and are not forced to award farm raids more than progression raids. We also like that people's loot priority is solely based on what they do within the guild; they can't farm EP on the AH in their free time to get a massive loot advantage.
I absolutely see GDKP working in pugs, especially as /roll is the only alternative, and we all know /roll sucks. But in most guilds some kind of DKP system would work better. As many other people have pointed out, a zero-sum DKP system has most of the pros of GDKP, gut lacks the big con of people getting loot priority without benefitting the guild/raid. I think I'll call it the gold arms race.
@ Goodmongo - read the Anonymous who replied to me earlier.
The primary motivation for a geared raider to raid is for the raiding experience and/or progression (and alternatively, to boost guild members/friends), not necessarily for gearing or gold.
Gevlon is presupposing that the goal of raiders is to gear up. However, I don't think that's necessarily the case. There is more to raiding than to get better gear, and to suggest that the only utility a raider is concerned with is loot/drops is to ignore the utility that comes with the social element of being in a good raid.
The "balancing" mentioned (broke gets the money needed and will be able to get loot the next time) is achieved with many dkp systems too. This does not change the fact that the system can easily be abused by a goblin (as can other systems in different ways).
The unique features of gdkp are the utility of gold outside the raid and the fact that gold earned outside the raid can be used to get loot and vice-versa, and the fact that it's easier to use an already existing and ubiquitous currency than to implement a new one outside the game.
If they really are geared then they won't raid period. They don't need gear or gold.
The premise is that everyone there still needs gear, with the "geared" players still needing 1-2 pieces (or wanting off-pieces) to complete their set. That is outlined in the post.
So, no, it is not a fallacy to point out that "Gold > faster/safer farm runs" only works when people value their time less than the potential gold gains. The marginal utility of gold decreases exponentially in WoW, whereas the value of time is relatively constant.
On the contrary to what the first anonymous said, gdkp is very successful with hard-mode raiders. Perhaps because they already got a lot of gold they can spend willy-nilly. Obviously, they'll only use this in pugs with their alts, so they can a) quickly gear them up or b) make 5k gold per hour.
Hard Mode Guilds have no reason to use GDKP because they actually benefit from the lock-in effect of DKP.
"What problems? The goblin buys up all the loot he needs, the broke gets a ton of gold as his share of the pot. He's not broke anymore and can bid on the next run or even the next item."
Ton of gold? You realize a ton is 100.000? Not a chance! When I raided 10m in The PuG some people were so poor they were not able to put any serious bid, they could not compete OR they would get it cheap. In practice it meant people could get item cheap, and barely any gold for pot. I found it not compete with my AH business at all; the 30g I get because "Bob" gets DCed again is not worth my time, nor worth the frustration. The people who made profit were the ones who were making cauldron (e.g. 400g/hour) and feast (e.g. 100g/wipe).
I rather just trade PuG on a quality realm. With a bit smart making of group, and showing your HC progress on main, I can easily get into trade PuGs and get all the loot I want. So can you. Tossers are not punished for gold; they are warned once, and then replaced. If I'd really want an item I could buy it from the other fellow, but if you raid with a main he probably won't sell it. I'd sell item, if the offer was good.
Most people are just utterly dumb when it boils down to making a good group for raid composition, buffs, and rolling for certain loot.
"If you are a caster, and you go with full geared plate melee, you'll get 20G/str plate. If you go with people who need gear, you'll get much more!"
If you are a caster and bring melee, they won't compete with you on caster gear. Only your damage will suffer because you lack buffs. You can also make composition for tier loot, or simply make your own group and make sure people don't need the item you need for their MS. If you bring geared people you can clear the instance quickly, and you have more chance getting the loot you need.
"isn't true in a any time frame longer than one or maybe two raids, since the gold goes to the other raiders"
What if he is casual and quits after 2 raids. He got gold, maybe got an item very cheap (no competition). What did you get out it? Nothing, since the amount of gold you got due to this player was relatively nothing. Not only was he undergeared meaning we clear the instance slower, and that he gets carried, he also did not contribute gold.
Essentially you get 2 groups of PuG: one using /roll with people who have achievement, who have LFR gear and some from DS normal and VP and the other group with PvP heroes, 359/378 ilvl who never did it before. Guess which group clears the instance twice as fast? Means the rest of the time you can play AH, or do it again on another alt. That is what I did in FL. I ended up with all my level 85 full clear (some pre-nerf, after full clear I generally lost interest), some even heroic kills, and my main 6/7 HC (some pre-nerf). The latter got me into hardcore raiding guild HC alt runs leading to even more heroic kills on my alts (and them more progress on legendaries). Glotan managed to kill 6/7 normal with GDKP system, only killing post-nerf Alysrazor and post-nerf Majordomo once never killing Ragnaros even post-nerf. And that is normal difficulty. My current goal is my main's progress (we are 6/8 HC now, 5/8 pre-nerf), getting some of my alts geared for alternative for main run, and getting 4-sets on my alts and off specs (because I enjoy the mechanics behind those).
PS: @ Anonymous 5k/hour isn't much in patch 4.3, and 5k an hour means the pot is 50.000 per hour since your share is 10%. I do not believe the pot in The PuG is 50.000 per hour, but I can believe some of the heroic pieces from their Morchok kill went for 10.000. If an item went for 10.000 you get 10.000/10 = 1.000 for it and that is on progress. They had 22 wipes. You really believe 22 wipes occured in one hour? That is one try every 2m40s. Not plausible, let us assume it was 2 hours of raiding (I believe it was more, but OK). Let us assume 2 items dropped, leading to 1k/hour on progress kill per item. No goblin who takes themselves serious finds that a good income, and that is on progress.
PPS: All of the above applies to 10m raiding. In 25m raiding there is more healthy competition and every drop is good for more than 1 person. You can also have certain people flagged as carrier (they are overgeared and experienced, not allowed to make any mistake in tactics (1 warning, then out) and people who need gear and are carried (show effort in gear, but don't have experience and/or gear, and have gold which they show beforehand with amount they want to bid, more lenient for mistake). The boosters will get more gold in such a PuG. I've trade PuGed 25m many times, and it works, but it isn't something I'd do on my main for progression since it has to be easy enough for those who are carried. So while it can be challenging and you need to perform, you get gold not progression (I want progression). You get much further putting effort into a fixed attendance raiding guild, perhaps with quality alts.
Gevlon, I believe your forgetting about tier tokens, where Int/Agi/Str doesn't matter. One would be competing against 40% or more of the raid and in a gold bid system, one would also be competing against other's off-spec.
You "stole" my idea :D
Now do a post on the MOAG (Mother of all gold sinks). Aka, rep and other stuff for gold.
ithme @ wowhead
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