Greedy Goblin

Monday, January 9, 2012

Goblinish advice on need-greed in LFR

The PuG update: In 4.3 gear really makes difference. We cleared 7/8 farm content with a handful of wipes only.

The post of today is a further update on my gearing page, comment it here. It's a pretty short update, but extremely important. I copied it here:

Now the loot: you did not go to LFR for the fun. LFR is not fun. LFR ranges from "OK, we done it pretty well" to "one more like that and I uninstall the game". You came for loot for normal raiding. There is one and only one goblinish advice here: need on everything. If you win something you don't really need, you can trade it. The effect of this largely depends on group size. If you queued up with a large group, your group gets lot of loot, allowing you to get trades. Many randoms refuses to trade. Even without trade, "your shard/vendor gold > the BiS of some random". You can also pay well geared guildies to come with you and need for you.

Finally something funny: this weekend was IoC. On Friday and Saturday we chain-massacred the horde. But on Sunday we lacked people and were only 3-5 wanting to run IoC. And we lost. And lost. And lost. No matter what strategy I tried, we lost. Finally I found the solution and spammed "All to hangar." And we won. Why? Because Hangar is the only place where you don't need to drive vehicles. Driving vehicles is way too hardcore for most people who has a rich and happy real life. I mean, it's great that the keeps have only 3 doors, because out of 4 demolishers 2 will surely attack the same gate. Also, glaives are way too fun to be used to shoot boring doors when they can oneshot players! So if you are on IoC, hangar is the key. That can't be messed up by even the most "fun" players. You and your premade shall hold quarry and refinery and you'll be fine.


KhasDylar said...

About the gearing advice: since the very beginning one of the guilds my several alts are in, does this way. The organise LFR runs where everyone can join, not only raiders, but friends of friends etc. and we need on every possible loot we can. Sometimes we are 10-15 from the same realm, maybe from the same guild too. After the run is finished, we try to bargain the LFR scum to trade those which are usefull or needed by us. Sometimes we can convince them, but of course mostly they just ignore us. After the raid is over, we stay in group and sort the loots out between ourselves. The general rule here is: if you needed something for yourself, you don't have to give it away, it's yours, but you are free to exchange it for anything you want: if you want another piece of loot or gold, it's your choise. We don't really care about the whining of the randoms: if I have a 397 tier piece and the same slot item drops in LFR, I'll need on it, despite the angry whispers/yellings from a random idiot: "fuck u why u need u haz better".
I'm pretty sure that most guilds, who want to maximize the loot for their raiders does the same way or something very similar. The guild who wants to do this, needs a stable core of raiders, who can distinguish between their left and right hands and some good reputation is also welcome: you won't get anybody who wants to join with you if they don't know you.

Anonymous said...

Another tip that is quite obvious but a lot of people don't realize is to do the LFR on Tuesday. Will usually mean more people who already looted the boss and there to help or just cap the valor.

Bristal said...

So, why is someone abusing loot rules and spoiling YOUR fun in this game a moron and/or slacker, but when you do the same to me, you're merely an honorable Goblin?

Isn't it just a matter of perspective, thus the whole argument breaks down to just us v.s. them?

Defining yourself as a better player, with whatever benchmark you choose, in order to circumvent rules that you yourself created to judge others, is elitist.

So then isn't Goblinism just the power to change the rules to justify your own needs?

How is that sustainable?

Andru said...


Nowhere does Gevlon say that abusing loot rules make you a M&S. Being below the healer of damage meters, however is.

Considering the fact that whoever reads WoW blogs also read EJ and maintankadin and what have you, I'd say that it's a pretty safe bet that they also boost the M&S.

Thus, needing on everything is levying a 'boost tax'.

Don't like it? Whine to Blizzard. I'm sure they'll change it, just as they did with LFD. (Making LFD even more of a cesspit.)

Anonymous said...


If everyone acts in their own self interest, no one is taken advantage of. The only time someone gets taken advantage of in this system is if they believe they should work to benefit the group as a whole over themselves. In that scenario, they will get screwed every time for their failure to adapt. Thus it is the smart/adaptable that take advantage of the m&s.

Anonymous said...

OK, this game sounds so unpleasant now. I was thinking of resubbing to try out LFR but I think this talks me out of it.

Anonymous said...

@ KhasDylar, guilds who want to maximize loot for raiders do tricks for example like the one you explained. If they are 25m and hardcore they already did this with 3 MS (for each token) plus alts.

@ Bristal, what Gevlon described here is NOT abusing the loot rules. By calling it that way you are spreading misinformation.

It is completely legal, and what I have been doing with guildies for a long time. We queue one MS + other alts who can need roll for him. We also simply roll on everything. Main spec, off spec, some spec, already have better, moonkin rolling on feral, enhance rolling on ele it all does not matter! You Need when you can.

I made a ticket about this and similar behavior, and Blizzard replied that if you can press Need and you win it is yours. You can do with it whatever you want. You can be socially pressured into being kicked for "ninjaing" even though according to Blizzard it is not ninja.

At worst it is morally wrong. Well, you can Need on everything in LFD and then DE it. Morally wrong perhaps, but Blizzard won't do anything. It is legal.

So what happens in LFR, an example:

1) You boost a random tosser arcane mage who does 11k DPS.
2) Chest drops, your rogue has it but rolls need and wins it.
3) Your buddy druid can use the chest for his OS. You keep that in mind till raid is done.
4) Next boss, the mage wins the shoulders which you needed for your 4-set. He wins it. You ask him to trade it for the chest. If he trades it, you won. If he doesn't you did not lose, he just lost his boost tho. Plus, your buddy wins since he will use it for his OS.

Therefore, do not queue alone in LFR. You get much less chance at loot. Plus, some gear is simply horrible for some classes, much better for others. I mean the str/crit trinket should go to a warr DPS. If you're on your DK and win it, you give it to your warrior buddy. Next time, he will pass for you.

Anonymous said...


Why is being below healer DPS a sign to be a M&S?

In a world where leeching is supported (LFG/LFR in WoW for example) working more than you need to is stupid. Or in other words: the goblinish way to abuse LFG/LFR is by leeching.

So where exactly is the difference between Gevlon telling the sub-healer dps "You suck, you are stealing my time" to the random guy telling Gevlon "You suck, you stole my loot."?

Anonymous said...

Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD. While it's not against the TOA to bring 10 friends and loot all the gear, I don't think it was the original intent.

Blizzard is going to try to "fix" some of this in the next patch, but I'm sure there will be ways to get around some of it. I guess this goes in the category of "all's fair in love and war(craft).

Aethryl said...

I've found queuing with friends we can usually get the Glaives ourselves and use them from the correct spot to smash the ?west? door.

I do agree with your assessment of how randoms fail with Glaives though. I've even seen them drive them up to the door to shoot point blank rather than hanging back at the overhang.

As for LFR, I like together with guild hunters and divide up possible drops beforehand. Course I've yet to see what I want even drop. Ever.

Anonymous said...


Exactly - I spend as much of my time in lfr letting the scrubs do the work for me - I have herbs to mill.

Anonymous said...

Your IoC discovery is no surprise. People queue in random BGs for PvP: player v.s. player. Not player-in-vehicle v.s. door.

Same reason people in SotA fail to attack demos or drive spare ones. Same reason people fight on the road in AB or in mid in WSG. Same reason people abandon towers or flags in every BG that has them.

The only BG that breaks this trend might be AV with it's pseudo-PvE objective of killing Van/Drek. BG objectives are too hardcore = boring.

Andru said...

@Anonymous excusing below-healer DpS.

There is one difference.

Supposedly, if you're in LFD, your goal is to actually COMPLETE the damned raid.

If you don't put effort into it, then why are you there? Expecting others to boost you? Not bloody likely, since they're all already terrible to begin with.

Intentionally not working in LFD is just wasting your time. The opportunity cost of 'not working' is a lot of time lost.

Explain to me what the opportunity cost of pressing 'need' on all buttons is.

Anonymous said...


If everybody needs on everything you end up with random loot distribution. Simplifying and assuming 3 types of loot (tank, healer, dps) this means random loot distribution will result in you needing 3 times the time to get the loot you want.

How is that not a rather heavy (opportunity) cost?

Anonymous said...

Even if you hold quarry and refinery, how can hangar outdamage workshop+docks?

Hangar used to be good, but lately when I've tried the cannons on hangar you can barely maneuver them to hit the door(the edge of the hangar gets in the way).
And having more than eight people running bombs inside their keep is just a waste(four stacks with a small respawn timer - two people per stack).
Do bombs get the extra damage from refinery+quarry too?

I often do IoC and yes, it can be bad, but it's actually very rarely people attack more than the west gate.

Andru said...


Tragedy of the commons. When that happens, it would be in my best interest to stop people from needing on all, and enforce a looting structure. Or alternatively, not use LFD at all.

The ideal strategy changes under different market conditions. Wow, that's new. You should write an economics paper on it!

I'm not interested in taking a cost now just in case *maybe* in the future, there will be a heftier opportunity cost.

Anonymous said...

Just because something is "legal" doesn't make it right. Blizz is currently tweaking the system to mitigate the asshats like yourself, and will continue to do so as long as you continue to try and game the system. They may not have done it when it first came out for whatever reason (thought the community would only need on needed items, lazy programming, etc.), but they are changing it to match their intent.

Blizzard's intent was to have people who need the gear roll need, people who would like to have the gear but don't "need" it roll greed, and have people who want enchanting mats roll DE. Why else put those buttons on the loot? They added role bonuses to rolls, and restricted items to class because "goblins" are the selfish little turds that like to ruin the party for everyone else. Typical neocon "I have mine, so f*ck you" attitude.

I have had zero issues gearing up in the LRF runs, and I only need on upgrades - anything else gets either a DE or greed roll. Any of you making an excuse for doing differently are just deluding yourselves.

Imagine that your contry's economy continues to not only cirle the drain, but eventually sinks and your lawmakers decide to pass laws that all personal property now belongs to the state (including your hedge fund in the bank deposit box) in order to allieviate its fiscal needs. I guess you would be fine with that, because it is the law; it must be right.