Greedy Goblin

Friday, December 2, 2011

How far would they go for pixels?

The PuG update: 2 bosses down. We could not raid on Wednesday, Thursday was out first raid. The first 2 boss were atrocious. They did not even deserve a screenshot. I mean we had 4 melee, one of them pretty new and 1/3 of the healers was my girlfriend's smallest alt in 361. I checked if we are in LFR despite LFR is not available on 10. Naxxramas is back. Bleh!

Warlord Zonozz on the other hand is still alive, despite a 15% try. The sphere has a tendency of hitting the tank. Bit of practice and he will join the rest. I'm quite sure we'll be doing hard modes next week (like everyone else).

Rohan wrote an ironic but clearly true questgiver conversation about the destruction of Theramore, the city ran by the most positive and likable character of the WoW Lore: Jaina. She fought with us in several raids and instances, she was always working for peace between the factions, so it's unlikely that any player would want here dead. Yet, Rohan is right about player reactions:

Garrosh Hellscream (questgiver): - Lok'tar Ogar, Champion of the Horde, Slayer of Deathwing! The Alliance have held us back for too long. Even now their armies encroach upon our territories, and kill our soldiers. It is time for us to deal with the main Alliance stronghold on Kalimdor. Your orders are to sack Theramore, destroy their ability to threaten us, and eliminate their leader, the mage Jaina Proudmoore.
Horde Player: - What!?! Are you mad? This is an atrocity, an act of war. It is stupid and short-sighted! I will not do this.
Garrosh Hellscream: - I offer you this epic weapon, Champion, and this rare striped kitten. It is not just any kitten, it is a Kitten of the Horde!
Horde Player: - Theramore will burn, Warchief! The men and women will be put to the sword, and their children enslaved. Also, I would also like a gemstone collar for my kitten.

The morality of quests are discussed several times in blogs, especially since the torture quests. However all these could be dismissed as "no real evil" has to be done, as you are just hurting pixels. I find it unacceptable as everything in the game is pixels, including your avatar. Is corpsecamping a lvl 11 pixel wrong?

However the above quest gave me a very nasty idea to prove that the M&S, the people who are "in need of help" according to the socialists are obnoxious, amoral and disgusting beings. I will be the evil questgiver. I will offer on /trade 1000G for random players if they say something real-world-disgusting (racist, sexist, hateful) on a public channel. I will only recruit lvl 85s, so no one can feel himself "anonymous trollololo" behind a lvl1 alt. They will have to stand behind the obnoxious things with their online persona, guild tag, everything.

What do you think? Will I fail to find such people, or will I go broke in an hour? And more importantly, will they be successful raiders, high level PvP-ers or ungemmed morons?


Ermak said...

As my teacher is saying: "Human morality is deteriorating daily, and profits have become the sole motivation."
You'll get the a*** spam in /trade 24/7. Idiots know you and will be more than happy to see you in their low society. Don't try to convince me you'll stay at a distnce. People are very easy to fall down.

Ahtchu said...

Will I fail to find such people, or will I go broke in an hour? And more importantly, will they be successful raiders, high level PvP-ers or ungemmed morons?
You will go broke, barring external circumstances like getting banned. And the people you recruit will come from all walks of the WoW populace.

Does betting on this outside of the game incur a fiscal response? =P Non-jokingly, the bet remains.

JackTheManiac said...

Interesting, but the thing that bothers me is when to pay them.

What if they say no on the premise that they may not be ensured the money?

It's not like you can go and say to Blizzard: I paid him to say racist stuff on Trade Chat, but he didn't hold his end of the bargain.

So, either you pay first, and they do not do it... either they refuse because they might not trust you will pay after they talked.

Or, they do it and you pay them after... that's a possibility. Which will work?

Can't wait to see the results.

Riptor said...

I have met some of the most obnoxious and racist Players and Trolls in hc Raiding Guilds (aside from certain Shooter Lobbies). I don’t know if any of them still play, but should one of them have set up his retirement on your Server he/she will most likely come.

nightgerbil said...

My mum had a saying when I was growing up "he who encourages the half wit gets smacked first".

I would suspect after the 5th Nword in trade and 3rd joke about burning Jews, the Gm handing out the mass bans would be including you in it.

dobablo said...

Incitement to cause hatred is normally treated a lot more seriously than a hate offense. I expect you'll probably get a very big ban if you do it for long enough.

I don't see what it would prove. We know there are arseholes that will do anything for a reward. The GIF theory is universally accepted.

Anonymous said...

I think you will achieve nothing, just gonna spend some gold.

Bones said...

I think Nightgerbil has a very good point, you might want to rethink that one, I could see your name popping up a few times and I don't think the experiment worth the ban.
I'd take it as a given that there are plenty of idiots out there, nothing to prove here except how clued up or not the GM's are.

Anonymous said...

Oh Gevlon, I'm so disappointed ... up till now your analysis of the human and more particularily the M&S condition was spot on perfect, your insight scathing and your ideas brilliant.

This is just silly ... yes, you will go broke within the hour, unless a GM is REALLY on top of his game and starts banning at once, and more importantly unless Blizzrd somehow manages to let everyone know exactly how many bans were handed out and for which reason, which, curiosly,happens to be against their Terms of Use. You would go broke in real-life as well as long as the reward you offered was greater than the oppurtunity cost of the hate-speech (fines and/or jail time).

In fact, I could almost argue that it would be goblinish, NOT M&S behaviour to take you up on your offer and take advatage of it.

"shakes head in sorrow*

Anonymous said...

I hope you use some out of the game channels to communicate what they must say, otherwise you can get a suspension yourself, if they report you.

Andru said...

Don't do it. You already have a suspension.

Blizzard can very well ban you for "inciting racial hatred" or some other such invented rule.

That aside, I would take your payment and say whatever you want me to say.

I've never been suspended on WoW, and as such I would risk at most 3 h suspension.

Sure, you can argue that 333 g/hour is dumb, but I can do other things in those 3 hours while the ban ticks. (much like you do other stuff while mass-crafting at the mailbox, and leave that time out of your g/h calculations.)

That makes me amoral. So sue me. Morality is an invented buzzword. Not to mention that words are not bullets. Words cannot hurt. (Actually you wrote about that.) If someone gets hurt by random words said on a random chat is their own damn problem. If they take seriously something said by random, unknown, people over the internet, then they're the morons, not me.

The problem is belief. You cannot prove that those people who will take your dare actually believe what they say. And even if they believe it, so what? Words are words, not actions.

Mal said...

I quite like the Sylvanas attitude of "everything that we can't use must die".

Though I'm guessing it would require some lore butchering also. Gelvon, I know you've been playing for quite some time now, have you played the previous games? If so, what is your general opinion of where the lore is heading? Pandas not withstanding.

Anonymous said...

I think that part of the issue with players doing unpleasant things in WoW has to do with how the story is presented. By and large, anything offered in a quest is essentially 'canon' in the Warcraft setting. It's part of the story, rather than a real choice the player might make. So, since it's happened anyways, the only question is does the player want the rewards or would they rather pass? Since Cata came out, that's not even really an option either, since just about every quest leads to another down the line. There's plenty of quests that, if skipped, stop the progress in that zone dead.

Really, in WoW there's not much choice at all. You can do the quests you're presented, or go to a different zone, or just stop playing.

Anonymous said...

Anal spam will not get you banned, or even a warning.

Racism will. Quite easily. Even using the 'n' word, which is a normal word for these people in my native language, is forbidden.

I remember someone getting a warning on their account for starting in trade chat a BH racist run for humans only. He was acting serious, but it was obviously a joke. Someone made a ticket, and a GM had a talk with him.

Jim said...

What does the point that you can get people to say some pretty disgusting stuff for money have to do with morons and slackers?

I think you are making an association between the two that is unproven.

Babar said...

Just a quick hint on Warlord Zonozz. This was the only of the first 4 bosses we actually wiped on, and we needed 6 tries to get him down. The ball seems to be really buggy, but our tank solved the problem by slowly moving backwards, away from the ball. This made the ball hit the boss most of the time, rather than him.

As for your experiment, I'm pretty sure you'd go broke. I've always been amused by how some people just never have gold, even in my previous guild which did hardcore raiding with many server-first end bosses in Wrath. Even non-M&S seem to have problems making gold sometimes.

Anonymous said...

"The sphere has a tendency of hitting the tank. Bit of practice and he will join the rest. I'm quite sure we'll be doing hard modes next week (like everyone else)."

B: Boss
M: Meele
T: Tank
R: Ranged
H: Healer

start casting first sphere
after sphere was consumed by boss
repeat until boss dies.

Attention: the sphere is immun to conusming and reflecting a while after it was reflected. Distance between boss and ranged camp has to be enough.

chewy said...

How will this prove that the M&S are obnoxious ? It might prove that there is a group willing to take your offer but it doesn't prove that they are the group you've previously defined as M&S.

It does raise a more interesting question though. If you were to do what you are proposing on the streets of the UK then you'd be arrested for inciting perhaps racial or some other type of hatred. Perhaps you would if you did this in Hungary, I don't know. But because you're doing this on the net you're not breaking any country laws... Or at least I don't think you are. Maybe I'm wrong ?

The point being that without country boundaries it's difficult to know where or indeed if you're committing a crime that you certainly would be within a country boundary.

Anonymous said...

interesting but it wouldnt prove anything cept posibly the GIF theory (as if needed)
a good example is ninjas lots of people do it w8 a month and then none remmebers you.
i think i can stand saying the holocaust was a ploy to foster sionist interest or something equaly stupid, ridicolous and/or WRONG.
but thats just me and i have said similar IRL to people in civics for no gain whatsoever,
(a comparison communism Vs nazism pissed of my teacher so much she gave me detention, i refused)

Horpner said...

I think it would be a better experiment to only start a rumor that somebody is paying gold for spouting hate speech in /2. That scheme leaves you less likely to get banned, and will expose only true morons and slackers.

Anonymous said...

As people have pointed out it would be meaningless and only self-destructive to pay people to be racist in /2. But maybe you could try doing something else, like paying people to ninja stuff? Pay people 10000g to organize a raid, ninja everything and provide screens of this. Not sure if this is viable or anything, but it would, if it works, prove more than getting people to spam /2 with anal. People spam /2 with all matter of ignorant stuff all the time. It's meaningless and something you just tune out. Ninjaing, however, is one of the few real 'crimes' in WoW. People do care about that.

Goodmongo said...

This is a really dumb thing. In the US you have a 1st amendment right to say something really offensive. Offer $1000 and you will go broke in 10 minutes with all the people lining up.

See here the problem. Saying something for money doesn't mean you believe it. Actors, politicians and just about everyone says stuff they don't believe for money. Some of it is very offensive (look at many comedians).

So what is your point anyway?

sam said...

@ Ermak...

"Our Earth is degenerate in these later days; there are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end; bribery and corruption are common; children no longer obey their parents; every man wants to write a book and the end of the world is evidently approaching." From an Assyrian clay tablet, circa 2800 BC.

It's in Isaac Asimov's book of facts.

Silly people who freak out at change have denounced the world as degenerate as long as people existed.

Andru said...


The First Amendament does not cover free speech on private property.

Or rather, it does not shield you from being thrown out of the black man's house if you call him a nigger.

Same with Blizzard. Their property, their rules. They can even ban you for wearing green on any other day but St. Patrick's.

Anonymous said...

I would take you up on that bet, in fact i would make so many alts on so many accounts that you would be broke before you could even hand out the first 1000gold, why you may ask?

I dont care what people think about me, all i care about is what i can get for as little effort as possible.

Infact as you said you would be an evil questgiver, and then its my duty to abuse and destroy this faboulus source of income, i would farm you to the bottom of the deep sea.

Words are words, there is no way you could actually know people would say what they really thought, in fact i can assure you that 99% would just lie and say the stuff anyway. Anything for the retarded easy cash.

You sir are a moron if you do this Gevlon.

Goodmongo said...

@Andru I was referring to $1000 US and saying it in public. Point is that not only could you get people in a game to say it you could easily get people in real life, in public to say these things.

Point is people do a lot worse for money then say offensive things. Whatever point Gevlon is trying to make won't be supported by this experiment. Its flawed.

Anonymous said...

Nice experiment. Be grateful that there aren't many high end pvp-ers on your server. I do wonder if other populations besides pvp-ers will be interested.

Blizzard has proved that players are willing to do this for a chance on rewards. Mindgames are a part of the pvp meta game. Shocking/confusing your 'enemies' is a good thing in this environment. Getting on your enemies nerves is considered a strategy. The players name can become a weapon, although Blizzard has forced many name changes (your naming policy is a barrier to keep arena players out of your guild). Insulting other players, being unlikeable, creating lies are all common practice. Showing weakness is punished.

They even managed to turn (assuming they have not done it before WoW) players into criminals. Previous seasons there were DoS attacks on specific teams to keep them from taking back rank 1.

Check out some of the stuff that is going on arenajunkies at the end of seasons. I watch the posts to see how a hostile/competitive environment in combination with anonymity and other elements creates such an unique environment. Trust is rare. There is much hate going on. It has been surprisingly friendly this season though. It still surprises me how far people are willing to go for pixel rewards.

Not every pvp-er behaves like this. Morality is present in most.
Some are very professional for example.

Anonymous said...

Please disregard my previous post. I did not think it through. These pvp-ers will most likely not risk a reprimand from Blizz for a trivial reward. Gold is too common to risk being banned for. And sadly for them, the length of bans increases depending on the frequency of offenses.

Anonymous said...

@ Anonymous 02 December, 2011 21:29

"You sir are a moron if you do this Gevlon"

You sir are a moron, because you can't be assed to read the whole blog post and understand it.

Gevlon said LVL 85 only.

Pim said...

In vanilla WoW, as I was levelling up with my buddy, we entered Desolace. There we heard the story of the Magram Clan Centaur and the Gelkis Clan Centaur.

In the original pre-cataclysm storylines, the alliance at Nigel's Point offered us quests to stir up the hatred between these two centaur clans before eventually choosing one over the other.

There was no reason given in terms of morality. Neither centaur clan was evil or good. There were simply two clans of people living their lives and occasionally squabbling over territory. The alliance questgiver told us to deliberately escalate their squabbling into full scale war, and after that, to get in good with one faction and utterly massacre the other. The purpose, if I recall correctly, was simply that the Alliance presence in Desolace would be strengthened by having favor with a winning centaur faction rather than maintaining neutrality.

I refused to do it. My buddy chose a faction (flipped a coin perhaps) and did some of their quests. To him they were just some more quests. To me, the whole thing reeked of evil.

Many years later, when achievements were created, I went back to Desolace and chose one faction over the other, in order to make progress toward the Loremaster title.

Having that title over my head meant a lot to me. It was my precious kitten with the gemstone collar.

Anonymous said...

I know that I mean no actual harm, and I would treat my statement as completely meaningless. It's just like any business transaction: if gold/time spent with hidden costs taken into account make it profitable, I will do it. If I know there's no risk of getting banned permanently, in normal circumstances I'd do it without question.

Anonymous said...

"Perhaps you would if you did this in Hungary, I don't know. But because you're doing this on the net you're not breaking any country laws... Or at least I don't think you are. Maybe I'm wrong ?"

Do you seriously think no country laws whatsoever apply on the Internet?

He posted from Hungary (I assume), so that law applies, since he resides there. is hosted in USA (I assume) hence US law applies. The USA still hosts, so their laws are pretty lenient towards racism.

What is more interesting: does inciting certain behavior in WoW, but outside of WoW, can get you a ban? I can curse whatever I want on voice chat, but if I call someone a "cock" for ninjapulling I get a warning on my account. Thing is, Blizzard can easily trace "Greedy Goblin" to "Gevlon on WoW (Glotan @ Agamaggan), and this fellow "Glotan" is doing transactions with all kind of accounts for 1000g after they said something foul. So that part is easily covered. Therefore, if this has severe impact, I believe Gevlon is soon getting suspended. Is this Gevlon's way of quiting WoW?

The reason anal trade spam is not reprimanded is because anal is not a genital. Seriously. That, and so many do it, that they cannot go after them all. The trick is to make such a statement which is not offensive to Blizzard to get a ban, but offensive enough for Gevlon to shell out the 1000g, granting you 1000g/1 min (for making it up, typing it out, pointing it out, and trading the gold). He can always refuse to shell out the 1000g since he never wrote about this deal in WoW itself.

"Ninjaing, however, is one of the few real 'crimes' in WoW. People do care about that."

GMs don't unless loot rules were clearly stated. And even then, they often will not reprimanded. Seen it, reported it, seen nothing happen in clear cases. Loot rules were asked. Mount would be rolled, highest roll wins. Mount gets ninjaed. GM said yeah we will look into it. Fellow still has mount. And that was something as lame as the OS3D mount. Trade knew about it, but cannot verify, so they don't bother much with "rumors".

chewy said...

You have your answer Gevlon from the anonymous moron at 06:01 - "I know that I mean no actual harm" which is the same as my children used to say when they were called to task for being rude to their siblings "I was only joking".

Pugilists will happily beat the crap out of each other for your entertainment if you pay them, mercenaries will shoot your enemy for you if you pay them and a hooker will perform whatever perverse sexual act doesn't kill her/him if you pay for it. They'll most likely rationalise it as Anon 6:01 does in order to assuage their guilt or not face the consequences of their actions.

But the bottom line is they are chasing the lowest common denominator, money and it's not rocket science to work out that whatever you offer to pay for eventually you'll find a taker.

Anonymous said...

Giving these offensive quests to players is against WoW's terms of use. You'd be looking at a ban hammer, lose your gold, your game, your guild and your platform for fighting the m&s.

2. Rules Related to "Chat", Interaction With Other Users or With Blizzard Entertainment Representatives. ... When engaging in Chat in World of Warcraft, or otherwise utilizing World of Warcraft, you may not:

(1) Transmit or post any content or use any language, in writing or orally, which, in the sole and absolute discretion of Blizzard Entertainment, is deemed to be offensive, including without limitation content or language that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, hateful, sexually explicit, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable, nor may you use a misspelling or an alternative spelling to circumvent the content and language restrictions listed above;

DeGei said...

For 1000 gold, no I would not. For 10,000 gold, I would consider your offer. For 50,000 gold, I would find myself speaking several things I would consider unsavory. For 100,000 or more I would speak any words you could possibly want, short of something I could be banned for. I understand exactly how much of a prostitute I would appear. However, this is being as much of a goblin as you are.

Instead of time I am leveraging my image against money. I do not have lots of time in game at the moment, so I do not play the market or any such thing, so my funds are low. I would be what you call a casual. I know how to play my Warrior Tank in dungeons.

Gold in game is more important than any form of "image" that could exist in Trade chat.

jtrack said...

"Social retard" does not equal "game retard".

With a large enough sampling there might be some overlap between the groups, but you don't have time to make that analysis.

On my server, the most obnoxious trade foul mouths are big-time raiders in HM 25-man guilds and their over inflated raiding ego's think it gives them more authority to behave thus. But, I know they aren't exclusive. The more epeen they have the worse they talk as if they earned that right.