Greedy Goblin

Friday, August 5, 2011

When I was THAT raid leader

The common social guild goes goes nowhere, because they are carrying various M&S "friends". The archetype of this situation is the girlfriend of the raid leader who is invited to every raid, despite sucking.

My girlfirend is either #1 or #2 on the damage meters in every raids. However she figured that she tries raiding with her alt. She leveled a worgen warlock for guild achievement and now geared up and practiced rotations. She made a unique supporter spec that included replenishment, jinx and spell damage decrease. So the little worgen became a good supporter character.

But her DPS sucked. Not at the tank level, but about 2/3 of #1. But do you know what was the really shocking thing: other people damaged even less and I did not noticed. I checked the logs for fails after a wipe (and always found some), but never for overall low DPS. I think sub-consciously did not want to notice that her damage is low.

Even I'm not safe from the social sub-routines. That's why it's important to have an asocial environment where others tell that "hey, your girlfriend and 2 others damage terribly". Among socials you can suck terribly and no one tells you.

Now that I was informed of it, it won't cause any more problem. She won't raid as warlock, unless on bosses where 4 healers are too many, 3 are too few. She gives replenishment and have very good damage mitigation. And she definitely outdamage an extra healer. Her best position is at Baleroc. With Nether protection, Mirror of broken images, Demon armor, glyph of soul link and health funneling the pet to not die, she can take a whole shard alone, letting the healers to get very high stacks of vital spark. I finished the fight with 178 stacks (870% healing bonus). And got 40K mana from her too.

But we must always be aware that she is a special support character and not an overall DD. For that role she must come as hunter. Where her special abilities are not needed, she is just a weak DD who has no place in a raid (unless it's a boost raid).


Denethal said...

That's the beauty of dual spec. One DPS, one support.

Velcroe said...

While kind of not the focus of your post I would say to re-look at your girlfriend's warlock in regards to its utility. Utility has value. While her personal contribution in regards to her personal dps/hps may have been low perhaps other players contributions increased. So the question would be does her coming as a lock increase the raids dps/hps more than than if she came on her hunter. You would of course not be able to measure this effect in just one raid since people's playstyles might change given her contribution. For example if there is more mana being returned healers might feel more comfortable throwing out more expensive heals thus increasing their hps but of course this change in play-style would not happen overnight.

Leeho said...

Shame that logs are private (at least i couldn't find them on WoL), that's interesting why affliction did so low. I don't think you're right with your statement of never bringing her to raids more. Didn't you say that you allow people to learn and try again as many times as they want?

Anonymous said...

obviously a min/max type of guild would swap the lock out for the hunter on DPS fights. they would also swap the lock in for the utility when required.

a social guild would not be concerned about the locks perfermance at all.

a goblin guild might find they have to pay a premium if they want the utility. the premium isnt in gold though. its bringing a weaker DPS to some fights they dont actually require the utility so that when they require it, it is availiable.

i would suggest that in this case your girlfriend is being social. she is willing to sacrifice her warlocks progress purely because the guild doesnt put a proper value on her utility. a real a-social would find a raid in which the utility was valued and take her buisness there. (sure the options on your server may be limited so that probably isnt a option)

ardoRic said...

Why not bring her as long as there's enough DPS to kill stuff without an hitch?

If you're not dying to enrage timers or stupid stuff she's doing, as long as she's good enough* there's little point in denying her a spot if that's the character she wants to bring and with whom she'll want to contribute more to the pot.

Of course that when there's a problem with not enough DPS being put out, you should be objective and analyze her performance and contribution just like you would anyone else's. Velcroe is right, though: you should also try and loot at how much she's boosting other people's DPS.

If she's the only one bringing 8% magical damage in a caster heavy raid, it might be best to keep her lock than to bring her hunter, for instance.

*I believe you have a post about this "good enough" deal

Grim said...

Wasn't "The PuG" all about NOT having to raid with a class/spec that the raid requires?

Gevlon said...

@Grim: you can raid with any class/spec that is able to perform. Also, no one is required to respec or change character. But of course if no healers show up there is no raid. We will not blame those who could log to a healer alt or respec healer as anyone else could do that. But we still can't raid.

@Ardoric: the raid can carry one low DD. Can't carry 5. And allowing one but not the other 4 is favoritism. The exception is when special utility is required to kill the boss.

Squishalot said...

Gevlon: "Among socials you can suck terribly and no one tells you."

Let's clarify that assumption. Among socials, you'll be the very first to know that your girlfriend sucks, and you'll know it on the very first fight she does badly, unlike in your asocial raiding environment, where people won't speak up until after they notice you ignoring it, on the assumption that it's the raid leader's call on whether to keep her for overall reasons.

The reason the stereotype 'girlfriend of RL' exists is because it gets pointed out, and the raid leader then counters with "my raid, my rules" and doesn't drop her, not because the socials don't call out the poor DPS in their midst. The difference is in the raid leader, not the raiding environment.

zenga said...

I hope you don't use Recount or skada to judge if someone's dps is good or bad ... since it's bugged as hell (6k dps difference for elemental shamans is no exception between what you see on your recount and the actual dps I did as ele, since fire elemental is not shown). with live combat log update is the only way to go to judge dps. Same is true for shadowfiend and other pets by the way.

Gaku said...


Next time you'll log on open recount/skada options and look up for something like "merge pet with owner" or "add pet to the owner". Or learn how to add up two values from the contributors' list. It worked that way since, like, always, so there is no way it would stop, as every pet or minion is marked as "player's" pet/minion.
The only way to really confuse (as it isn't really a bug, more like current limitation of ui/targeting mechanism) addons is to name your pet with name of someone else from raid.

Anonymous said...

Most of the time i agree with your post (or the main reason why you write it).
And i hope you wrote this post, to tell us, that you were blind and didnt see the low dps.

However this whole "support spec" doesnt fit into the current wow metagame.

Every spec (expect maybe 3 out of 30) is possible to perform well in Raids! And every spec has buffs, they bring. So is every spec a support spec?

Is a Frost DK a support spec, because he brings attackspeed, increased phsycal dmg, attack reduce, str + agi buff? No!

A Frost DK would be a support spec, if you let him spec his aoe slow and he kites adds (i.e. magmaw, council).

Does this mean, that the Frost DK support spec, cant deal dmg? NO! He loses maybe 10% dps, but it's necessary for fight mechanics.

So the Warlock brings, replenishment. So do, healing druids, paladins, shadow priests, frost mages and maybe a other spec that i forgot.
So the Warlack brings, bringts a trinket (that everyone can use) and some other dmg reduces. Dont let me list every dmg reduction ability a DPS can use. Just 1 example: A Shadowpriest can easily survive 1 baleroc shard, with 1 skill :)

I hope those examples are enough, to say, that what your support warlock brings, is nothing special.
I can show you thousands of Warlocks that can bring you this support and do awesome dmg....

Putting up curse of elements is 1 GCD every 5 min... Casting shadowbolt's every 30s (as destro) for 5% crit debuff is not only a raid dps increase, but also a personal dps increase. Putting jinxed on aoe packs... Also increased the warlocks own bomb performance.

I m sorry, but every spec is a "support spec". Of course there are gimmick spec that trivialize several fights, that have a huge loss for this player. But thats why you have dual spec. And if you have a PVP second spec, you can always port back an respec manually....

In the current Game, there is no reason to suck in DPS!

Anonymous said...

Worgen warlock is good combination. Darkflight and 1% crit are nice perks.

I know Tweeq uploads logs to WoL. Maybe if you search for his name.

Various other classes also give replenishment (which is heavily nerved since WotLK): frost mage, shadow priest, restoration druid. Have a look at healer 2pcT12 it has a replenishment-like effect built-in.

And various other classes have utility such as Ardent Defender and Cheat Death.

Bill said...

What rule did your GF violate? I see
"Raid leaders have the right to remove someone from the raid ... for ... abysmal DPS".

And "As a general rule: slackers pay, those who have problems that cannot be repaired in 10 mins or really undergeared are replaced."

But she isn't really undergeared or slacking.

Somehow being 2/3 of the #1 DPS is wrong? Doesn't that mean she is required to switch her spec or play her hunter or she doesn't raid?

This sort of touches on the "No forced specs." rule. If there isn't room in the raid for a utility warlock who is 2/3 of the #1 dps, then sure, I guess raid leaders have the right to pass over her.

However, I guess showing up in 333 blues and cheap enchants isn't going to fly in your guild anymore, if your raid slots are based on the DPS of the #1.

Bill said...

Thinking about my last comment, I realize I'm missing one piece of information: Why did you start looking at the damage meter? Was your raid failing more than usual?

If your raid isn't failing (or is progressing at the same rate as previous weeks), does it matter what someone's DPS is? As other people have mentioned, you can't measure the value of utility as easily as you can DPS.

Andrei said...

It is not just the question if she is pulling her weight or contributing enough. Assuming that she is - does she get her raiding spot over equally able players because of her girlfriend status? Is this "support role" exists specifically to justify her inclusion in the raid?

Tenko said...

Can't she just dual spec? She can have one support spec and one damage focused spec. Locks are in a pretty good place right now damage-wise.

Anonymous said...

Well, afaik she sits out and rolls for the spots like everyone else.

And DPS Meter matters in the moment we hit enrage or can´t beat a soft enrage. Thou for the latter, healers are taken into consideration too.

Yaggle said...

This kind of reminds me of the story when you had a shaman in the group who had an offhand item instead of a shield so they could have more spellpower. You made him use a shield so he would not die as often. People can focus on DPS too much, right?

Anonymous said...

I did some web hunting and found this:

Affliction locks are currently the third highest dps class/spec. Survival hunters are 4th from bottom.

If your girlfriend is an experienced survival hunter, but has only played a lock for a couple of months it should be no surprise that in the pressure of a raid enviroment she can maintain a decent amount of dps with the hunter she knows backwards but it falls apart for her with the warlock shes still coming to terms with and doesnt have the experience with in a RAID.

The answer isnt to permenantly bench the warlock, its to get more experience with it in raid enviroments. Your describing a L2P issue not the state of warlocks.

Frnit said...

This type of alt is a completely different way of playing and supports the team, don't you think?

Sounds about the exactly same reasons I gave you regarding alt rule back in the day.

Did the alt rule change more at some point since at least on Al'akir, DPS logging a Healer alt was a bit no-go?

I'd be interested in joining, if i played still.

Yours, Jinchu

zenga said...

Gaku said...
... "merge pet with owner" or "add pet to the owner". Or learn how to add up two values from the contributors' list. It worked that way since, like, always, so there is no way it would stop, as every pet or minion is marked as "player's" pet/minion.

That doesn't solve the issue with recount. It's been a known bug for months. You can easy test this yourself: find an elemental shaman or shadow priest, group with him and let him hit the dummy. Ask them to use their fire ele/shadowfiend. Than ask them to report their damagemeter and compare with yours.

The shaman his recount will record the dps of the fire elemental more or less correct, your meter won't.

Reason being is that the owner of the pet is not the shaman but the totem. This was changed somewhere in in february if I recall correct and has been reported on many places ever since (and it has nothing to do with the merge pet setting). Thus makes recount not a reliable way at all to judge ones performance. Worldoflogs however does it correct.

Gevlon said...

@Jinchu: the alt rule was changed a few months ago to ONE alt.