Greedy Goblin

Wednesday, July 20, 2011

I report you!

The Pug update:
The setup was 1 tank, 4 healers, 5 DD. 2x2 DD doing shards, 1 free. 2 healers on shards, other 2 on tank. We wiped a lot until we figured out the following tricks:
  • the tank should have as little stamina as possible as decimation strike takes 90% HP
  • the first member of the shard pair should get 15 stacks because it give more stacks to healer. He shall use mirror on 8 stacks
  • the tank shall use mirror on fire blade
  • the boss must moved next to shad when melee pair has it, away when ranged
  • heroism last 40 secs to help healers, not DD

I had one of the most annoying WoW experiences. One of the rare cases when I miss that I can't hit the other player trough the monitor. I was asked in the guild to heal a random troll heroic. I was bored and was not valor capped. I know that these are very bad reasons to do a random HC. We were 4 so had to take a random DD. Again: I should have left the group and I am the one who always say "going with random is looking for trouble, you can only blame yourself". I am only blaming myself for getting a bad player. It's not the point of the post. "oh noes, LFD trash is ... trash" couldn't be a post.

The reason of me being upset and the reason of this post is his response:

No, he was not looking for excuses like low playing time or "just dinged" for his 6 empty glyph slots, 8 unenchanted items, 3 empty sockets, missing belt buckle, missing blacksmithing sockets or inscription shoulder enchant. No, he is not asking us to be "nice heplfull peeps" and boost him. He is not even deflecting and claim "lol itza game we play 4 fun dun be srs dud". He is believing that me not boosting him is a crime that deserves punishment from Blizzard. And no, he can't be upset about my wording (retard) as he calls me a scrub.

He believes that being useless is not an (excusable, understandable, out of his control) mistake but a right and not carrying him is evil. This is the true nature of the M&S. The begging, lolling punks are mostly kids. The adult M&S is proud of being M&S, feel entitled to leech and hate those "evil ones" who dare to not carry him. He doesn't ask for help, he tries to take it by force.

Not from me. The vote kick feature put a quick end to his demands and threats. We got a very good rogue. Possibly the matchmaker system gives good players to teams that proven to not be pushovers by kicking a useless punk. So it's rewarding to act properly with those who want to leach on us.


Anonymous said...

I think you are completely off base with this one, Gevlon. He wasn't saying you should boost him, he was saying you would not need to boost him, as he would hold his own weight and was capable of doing 12k DPS.

Sven said...

Reading the chat log, I don't believe he was objecting to you not boosting him. He was stating that (in his opinion) you weren't boosting him, because he was doing more DPS than the shaman (12K+, when you asked for 10K+).

I can see you *say* that he blew all his cooldowns, but there's no confirming evidence provided, nor any evidence that he would do under 10K normally. Further more, your #3 on the chart does markedly less than 10K.

He's not complaining that you aren't boosting him, he's complaining because he believes that you were rude to him for doing a far better job than your guildy.

Personally, I'd have thought /ignore was all that he needed to do, but the evidence you provide supports his case rather than yours.

Gevlon said...

@Sven, anonymous: it's just a rephrasing. His nonsense claims (that he can pull his weight) are nothing but ego-boosting lies. And yes, the shaman shouldn't have slacked on trash. But going all out on some trashmob doesn't make you useful.

Maybe the optimal move from him was to wait until he dies in the green labyrinth or does 5K on the boss, then my case was more obvious. But I had little to no tolerance towards him and wanted his useless butt out.

Squishalot said...

Gevlon - the Anonymous and Sven are right. You haven't demonstrated the case that he needed boosting at all. Even if he blew all CDs on a trash mob, he's not going to increase your DPS by more than about 30-50% (Death Wish 20%, Str trinket for around the same again), which would still put around the same or ahead of Adanedar.

I think you've gotten the completely wrong idea, especially when your team is asking for 10k or kick, and Adanedar failed to meet it, by a significant way.

maxim said...

When you call retards retards they feel offended and feel entitled to call you names back.

The part of him being offended caused the report. The part of him feling entitled to call you names caused him calling you scrub.

Boosting considerations only existed in your own head on this one.

The concern i have at this junction is whether the way you talked to this particular slacker (not moron, as he did actually pull his weight on the run) would maximise the probability of him converting out of M&S mentality. Something tells me you only served to entrench him harder in his ways.

Anonymous said...

I'm going to have to agree with Gevlon here. You have to remember that skill is mostly related to in game knowledge. When you see someone with none of the most basic tools for improving performance there is a good chance that they will waste more of your time then simply replacing them.

Although the above case "might" have been able to do enough dps the time spend figuring out whether he is actually useful is more then simply kicking them when above people appear.

As for why he reported you it's because you called him a retard. It has nothing to do with boosting or not boosting. He just believes he isn't a retard and is trying to prove both to himself and you the contrary. Add in the social aspect and you have the person who believes everyone should be nice to eachother and people who don't are evil and you get the response you see.

Gevlon said...

@Squishalot: again. We did not bring him to the first boss. His damage meter shows the first trash (the girl next to the green cauldron) and the second (the tiki warrior). He also posted DPS, not damage done, which can be easily inflated by idling around and then go all out using execute abilities.

While I accept that my inpatience to kick him instantly decreased the elegance of my post, claiming that he could pull his weight is at the verge of trolling. If you look at his armory, he is 6/12 ICC, Argoloth only in Cataclysm. He is way hit overcapped by intentionally reforging. I understand that these are less obvious and elegant than a damage meter of the first boss where he does less than the tank, and I'm sorry for not providing this. But please don't use it to make ridiculous and obviously untrue claims like he could pull his weight.

My mum never played WoW, therefore there is absolutely no evidence that shows she failing in any boss. But we can say without doubt that she would.

Leeho said...

What i hate is when people are judging my dps based on my ilvl and their skill. I'm not saying that i'm incredible, but usually when i'm in a PuG on an alt, i can pull my weight and i will not be the last on recount. That doesn't stop them from nonsense like saying that 353 ilvl is not enough to dps normal BWD though, and that kind of statements makes me crazy. You're doing the same thing - you haven't seen his dps on a boss, just ungemmed gear, which is a rather slight stats loss. You judge his performance based on your beliefs, not on any kind of logic and calculations or evidence.

nightgerbil said...

Wondered if you had noticed this gevlon?

I'll quote the best bit:

"What we typically see is a hunter who's missing several Cobra Shots each minute and delaying Explosive Shot a few tenths of a second on average (or more probably delaying it substantially just a few times), possibly shooting in Fox often when he should be in Hawk.

All of a sudden, you add all that together and you have a loss of thousands of DPS. In fact, adding it together is the same DPS loss as:

Using no gems at all, and forgoing all socket bonuses as well
Not spending the last six talent points
Not using a pet at all"

To sum up, minor errors in a combat rotation has the same or greater effect them all those missing gems and enchants. If a hunter is good he can do top 20% dps while dual wielding skinning knifes (saw that once, he was proving a point). If your punk knows he can pull the dps for the fight without needing the gems and enchants is he really a slacker? After all your definition of slacker was someone who wants something but cant be arsed to put in the work to achieve it. If he knows hes put the time into his class to achieve his results why spend the time to buy gold to grind gems he doesnt need?

Anonymous said...

Sven, as most melee DD, a warrior DD does high DPS with mediocre gear. It is a lolclass, after all. This guy is a slacker pur sang. He clearly knows enough about his class as I will show you soon.

He has Firebound Gorget, a melee/plate DD BoE drop from FL trash. He is also honored with Avengers of Hyjal as he has the ilvl 378 cloak. You heard it here on Greedy Goblin first: this is the type of slacker you get in your Firelands trade PuG. Yes, healers and casters, listen! This is the asshole who takes the loot for his "main spec". The loot which won't drop for you since there is only a 2H staff with hit and a MH caster for caster DD & healers. Casters & healers: don't do FL trash run with loot rule "MS > ". You are boosting others.

He probably didn't touch his legs because he is saving JP for getting 2pcT11 from legs. He already has chest. Notice he did gem (with expensive mats) his ilvl 333 green head. So he does have gold. He doesn't have inscription shoulder enchant because his inscription is lvl 193. I don't agree with Gevlon this is slacking (if he was raiding it would be though). He has enchanted his hands and wrist so he knows what enchanting is yet has not bothered to enchant his ilvl 378 cloak (+50 crit is cheap and good; not best, but good), or his chest T11 ilvl 359. His spec is 1:1 EJ fury TG (sans glyphs). He is reforging to crit and hit from haste AND expertise. Warrior DPS are generally expertise-capped (see warrior EJ FAQ; 2nd most important stat). Only rogues and feral druids aren't however if he plays his class and fight specific movement well this is minor nuisance on his side (and in most fights a DPS gain). In raids, you want and expect warrior to be expertise capped though. The cherry on the ice cream is his lack of glyphs. Not only is this fellow missing one prime glyph and two major glyph, one of his prime glyph he has is for arms: glyph of overpower.

His ICC progress is the most funny thing of his whole Armory: 6/12 normal with lootship on HC. The typical progress of the trade PuG.

His argument is he did 12k on first trash. Who cares? Someone who is barely geared (full ilvl 346 blues PvE) for the encounter does 10k. He could have easily done 18k if he bothered to use some more enchants and gems. It could've been green gems, it could've been cheap enchantments like the +50 crit on cloak. He could've at least use glyph of bloodthirst as prime glyph, and just get raging blow too, and replace glyph of overpower which is useless. When he is caught slacking on his gear (you cannot /inspect lack of glyphs by the way so Gevlon couldn't have known this) he demonstrates he is meeting standards. The massive hit he has indicates he had to get that for FL. He is pulling the same old trick he has been pulling all along: just enough DPS to get away with it, as he did get away with it in the FL trash runs.

On the bright side, he won't overagro the tank and die. Like many warriors do. And then dare to complain.

My question is rather: was Gevlon's way of addressing the issue the correct or most efficient way? It appears several readers think it was not. How would you have addressed the issue? Or would you just have ignored it and let this fellow get boosted by people who do put a lot of time and effort into optimizing their class (the non-slackers among us).

nightgerbil said...

Edit: meant grind gold to buy gems. I wasnt suggesting he was a gold buyer

Anonymous said...

You should be a little careful about throwing the word "retard" around. By all means kick someone for being ungemmed and unenchanted all you like, but if he did write a ticket using inflammatory language is something that Blizzard will react to when they look at the chat logs, whatever the reason.

Anonymous said...

So you're calling somebody obviously playing on an alt with which he got to 85 only 3 months ago and that still hasn't set foot into a raid with said toon a moron & slacker for not wasting gold on gemming a toon, that simply doesn't need gemming, and you're really surprised he's reporting you for being abusive?

On the topic of your Baleroc kill: Why didn't you simply go with 2 Tanks or even 1 Tank and 6 DPS. Either tactic reduces the required healing so much, that your additional healer is simply not needed.

nightgerbil said...

@ anonymous between my first two posts: I was playing devils advocate. I would have votekicked him for slacking.

Gevlon said...

@Anonymous: if it's an alt that doesn't need gems, than what exactly the purpose of this alt? What does it do in ZG? If he came for gear or VP where will he use them? ZG doesn't help PvP at all. His PvE is non-existant. So what the hell is he doing?

Anonymous said...

"[...] Blizzard will react to when they look at the chat logs, whatever the reason."

True, don't swear. However:

Gevlon called Slacker a Retard.
Slacker replied by calling Gevlon a Scrub.

Nothing happens. If you want to report someone, stay courteous and don't swear towards others. Don't lower yourself to their lack of decency.

The reply to his ticket from CS (doubt he makes one, but if he did): "Blahblah we will look into it and take appropriate action blahblah." GM looks in log. Sees 2 people swearing at each other. Yawns, and closes ticket.

Even then, if you do swear and the other person does not, chances are low you get a temporary suspension. I have sweared, occasionally with extremely foul language, to quite a bunch of people who did not swear back and said they'd report me. I even slept bad once because of this. Never got an infraction for it. Never. Blizzard not even contacted me with a warning. So while I don't recommend to swear a lot (save it for when it matters) I wouldn't worry too much about this.

Squishalot said...

Gevlon: "But please don't use it to make ridiculous and obviously untrue claims like he could pull his weight."

On the evidence presented (as you say, in your rush to get rid of him), it's there is no real reason to drop him. I couldn't care less if someone is ungemmed, if he is capable of pulling his weight.

And I did check out his profile. For your reference, since you don't seem to play a Warrior, I refer you to the stat priorities from the Wowhead Warrior forums for Fury warriors. I would also point out that his reforged hit % is currently around 20%, which is well below the dual-wielding cap of 27%.

You are correct in that he is intentionally reforging to hit rating. Where you are completely wrong is in that he has dumped Expertise, Mastery and Haste, the three weakest stats for Fury warriors (post Expertise cap) in favour of Hit and Crit, the two best stats. The only criticism I have of his reforging is that he has gotten a +Mastery somewhere in there too (from reforging haste away) when he should have used +Hit instead.

His reforging is decent, and his class knowledge appears to be sound, as the Anonymous above points out. The glyph reason is a much better one to crucify him, but again, not a reason to kick, since it's not visible in game. Especially if he is capable of pulling his weight (which, again, as you say, you never bothered to find out).

Squishalot said...

Gevelon: "if it's an alt that doesn't need gems, than what exactly the purpose of this alt? What does it do in ZG? If he came for gear or VP where will he use them? ZG doesn't help PvP at all. His PvE is non-existant. So what the hell is he doing?"

Have you considered that his Prot spec may be the spec he's gearing up?

Anonymous said...

"ZG doesn't help PvP at all"

Sadly, it does. VP earned can be converted into CP.

Anonymous, I have clearly stated in a post above that he could spend moderate amount of gold (earned via dailies if you must) to get cheap enchants (+15 stats chest, +30 sta minor runspeed (= DPS gain and cheap enchant)), cheap green gems instead of blues, get the additional gem on hands and wrist, get the buckle on his waist, and at the very least he should have 3 prime and 3 major glyphs ever since he reached level 75 on this supposedly lolalt of him. He is also top contributor in his guild this week. This may be an alt, but the owner is slacking on this alt. Period.

Giovan said...

Seriously? Why are you defending this M&S? He didn't care to prepare, check his gear and stuff before, why someone tolerate him in his run?

I had similiar situations in The PuG guild, most of non-gemmed and np-enchants guys procceded to call me names, say they will pull enoughs dps etc instead of just going and fixing missing enchants or gems.

What's funny, some of them have that enchants later, just have me on ignore, no idea, because i was demanding from them same things i put into preparing?

Anonymous said...

So what the hell is he doing?

Maybe he just likes to run dungeons?

I mean, I stopped raiding some months ago because I got bored, but even I will run heroics occasionally just for the fun of it.

Velcroe said...

@Gavlon: I am seeing both sides of this situation. As a fellow healer, one who was healing heroic dungeons within the first month of the expansion it frustrates me to no end to see other people purposely put forth so little effort into their toons. As a healer or for that matter a tank, you don't really have the option to be bad. If your running heroic dungeons in 329 gear, as a healer, you absolutely need the correct gems, enchants and reforging. Without these necessary things you go oom quickly thus giving your dps team the time needed to down the boss.

From a dps perspective though things change. If they are not optimal that may mean there dps is lowered by 1k or even 2k. The boss takes a bit longer to die but he still dies. Ironically the person it puts the most strain on again is the healer who must heal for longer amount of time without going oom.

So from the perspective I get where you are coming from because healers cannot "slack".

On the other hand you wrote a post a long while back (at least I think it was you) about raiding Nax or some other WOLK raid. In this post you stated that as long as a dps was hitting a certain dps value, I want to say 2.5k dps, that they were in no way being carried even if everyone else was doing 3.5k (substantially higher). Your reasoning at the time was that to down the boss everyone had to put out 2.5k dps in order to beat the enrage timer, anything else was just icing on the cake.

In your situation you stated that 10k dps was the number required to do the instance. If he can hit that number then it does not matter what his gear looks like (he could be in spirit cloth gear) he is performing his function at the specified level.

So yeah, the question comes down to this statement: yes this warrior is a slacker, no question on that but in the given situation if he performs to the level of expectation does it matter?

Bobbins said...

By refusing non-optimal players aren't you being boosted by others. By imposing a bar your guild members might be unable to achieve you are requiring people superior to other members in your group.

Zazkadin said...


I also feel you treated this guy unfairly. If you have a principle of not boosting players with ungemmed gear, you should just have votekicked him immediately on these grounds without discussion.

However you chose to call him names and he was offered to prove he could pull his weigth and when he did, you are just constructing excuses on how he must have staged that.

Make up your mind: kick on principe or don't kick until someone has actually proven to be a slacker.

Ephemeron said...

Rades said...

Considering your stance on performance, I don't see what the fuss was about. Especially considering you didn't hit a boss yet. Sure, if you were pugging him for a raid, you could reject him on the merits of his lack of preparation. But if he could hold his own - which we don't know from the screenshots, since it was just trash - then why complain about it?

Obviously trash means nothing, but if a guy who is unenchanted is outdpsing your (I assume) fully gemmed/enchanted guildmate, I think the M&S in this case isn't the pug.

Regardless, YOU signed up for the random Heroic - he didn't beg to come along with you, nor did he do anything wrong. In a random, performance is the only thing that matters. If I can do 15k (or whatever amount meets your personal standards) then it really doesn't matter how I'm geared.

Ulv said...

Would have been reasonable to see how he performed on something meaningful but I see your point about un-gemmed/gyphed/enchanted pointing to someone being a bit clueless.

On the other hand he might have been one of those rare individuals who tend to take little or no unneeded damage - the bigges boost to DD is simple being alive to the end of the fight.

By making a judgement based on gear he didn't get an opportunity to show what skills he has or doesn't.

I almost always wait until someone shows bad performance before hitting the eject button.

Anonymous said...

I think the master of don't-fall-for-the-usual-bullshit did it too. Gevlon clearly doesn't want to even look at someone he feels he is boosting therefore he kicks anyone who shows any sign of doing so using the socially acceptable norm, ie, gems/enchants/language...

Welcome to the Pro&Social!

Squishalot said...

@ Ephemeron: Gevlon's obviously moved on since those times. He no longer wants to provide a relative boost to a player, even if said player is 'good enough' by meeting the objective numerical requirements for completing their task.

This hypocritical attitude is exemplified in the '10k DPS or kick' response by Adanedar, and Gevlon's opening two lines.

1) Adanedar (and Gevlon, by extension) is demanding a level of performance greater than what is required (at a minimum, a la Patchwerk) to complete the dungeon.

2) Adanedar is demanding a measure of performance that is inappropriate (DPS vs damage done).

3) Gevlon is demanding unnecessary characteristics (gemming, enchants) that are merely correlational indicators of the actual characteristics he wants (intelligence, performance), rather than simply demanding the performance itself, when he's in a position to measure said performance.

4) Adanedar is, in fact, demanding a level of performance that is greater than his own, implicitly asking to be boosted.

5) Gevlon and team are willing to waste 15 minutes not running a dungeon, rather than run the dungeon with a Warrior who hasn't been shown to be sub-par, with the possibility of getting a sub-par player in his place and needing to wait a further 15 minutes.

Who are the M&S here?

Anonymous said...

You've come a long way since your anti-Gearscore days and the Blue project, Gevlon.
For the asocial, all that matters should be the performance. The only performance test that was given him, he aced. Then you kicked him.

For those talking about hit and expertise caps - remember that in a dungeon, bosses are maxlevel+2, not +3. This significantly lowers the required caps.

Was he optimal? No. But he didn't need to be. He met the performance requirements and wasn't a liability to the group. He didn't need carrying, from what we can see.

Not only that, but as Squishalot mentions above, you spent a lot of time /inspecting the guy, as well as going back through your chat logs while running the dungeon in order to take a screenshot, which must surely have been an impediment to your own performance.

This post is so far off kilter, that I suspect it might be a troll post, like your feminism post last year.

Sarge said...

From a goblin perspective the whole in-game discussion just based on inspecting his gear seems like a total waste of time to me.

If you think he is not capable of pulling his weight, start a vote-kick immediately.

Personally I give everyone a chance to prove themselves fighting a boss, not trash mobs. If they fail, you can kick them afterwards.
Remember from the blue project, that skill can beat equip by a longshot - I haven't looked at this guys armory, but I myself will not enchant or gem blue stuff, when I know I'm going to replace if after 2 Zul runs. 1000-2000 dps less isn't noticeable in most groups.
Remember: a 5-man ain't no raid, where everything counts!
Like you wrote, the shaman is not going all out on some trash mob, which is totally ok.

So overall I think you should reconsider your handling of that situation. Maybe next time you'll approach everything differently (and bring along a 5th guy from your guild ^^).

Fex said...

Regardless of weather or not the guy could pull his weighth, the fact that he shows up in a group environement ungemmed, and unenchanted is blatantely expecting others to make up for his lack of effort.

With gems and enchants he would undoubtedely do better then without. Not having them is intentionally gimping himself. And expecting others to "boost" him the rest of the way.

If he takes that mindset before even playing allready, it is unlikely he will be giving the best possible performance on other fronts. In reality he will likely be the guy that starts yelling at tanks and healers when something goes wrong. And after that when he is being ignored starts griefing.

He could be decked out in gems for under 800g if he went for the most expensive ones. ( and in my mind there is no excuse to gem inferior quality ). And 1200g is an overestimate and purely based on my own realm where all gems are still selling for 100 - 150g average. Likely on other realms the prices are much lower.

Next to that you can pretty much get gems one level below the top for as low as 15g each. making his investement cost less then the MH dailies provide in a single day.

DPS numbers mean nothing if they come from a guy who is intentionally using sub optimal gear. ( as in full pvp set, no gems, no enchants, using wrong stat items to gain Ilvl )

Doing things this "easy" way should never be tolerated, if the player in question would be using the proper things his dps would be better. Not doing so is plain rude to the other party members.

Regardless of whatever dps someone can bring without equipping the proper gearset.

For instance, it is perfectly possible to get through an HC doing 5k hps. IF every pull is orchestrated, and no mistakes are made. 5K hps was easily obtainable in wrath. Wich means that in fact there are no gear requirements on healers as long as they keep enough mana to finish a fight.

But i doubt anyone would accept a healer that needed a mana break after every pull. And would wipe the group the moment that a mob was not cc-ed properly, or a kill order was messed up. You all expect other players to gear up and bring the best they possibly can, not having enchants - gems, or using inapropriate gear for the content is not bringing the best you can.

Bobbins said...

A question ???

Why has an elemental shaman (Adanedar) reforged spirit to hit?

PS He does have elemental Percision.

Panthro said...

If you are saying that 10ks are way more what you need to complete a troll hc, then you really like to waste your time with useless people (or you are part of them).

This guy had bad reforging, didn't use cheap enchants and gems because HE DIDN'T WANT. Didn't use good glyphs because HE DIDN'T WANT. Why the hell would you wait til hit the first boss to see if he can pull his weight? Because all of you really want to waste your time. Gevlon didn't.

Oh right, you have to wait 15 minutes to kick him out, that's a waste of time, so better go to the first boss and see what happens? No, thanks. At least you are wasting your time doing nothing instead of rushing for free (and chances of getting boe's).

I can't believe people are discussing this. This guy was a moron, was treated like that and you all want a valid reason for doing that? Dudes, really, this is a good moment to pull a meme and say "Why? Because FUCK YOU that's why".

Fex said...

@ everyone stating that performance outweighs gear.

It does, no doubt about it, perfecting one's rotation will increase your dps and damage done by far more then min maxing that last additional 0.3% hit over cap away.

But however good your performance, it is no excuse to slack everywhere else.

Demanding 10k dps or meeting it is redundant. EVERY player should do his utmost best, if he is not playing with friends. You're teaming up with strangers in LFD, and you all want a run to be as smooth as possible.

If you are intentionally making a run harder then it could be, you are in effect spitting in the faces of your team mates, you are stealing their play time for your own benefit. Regardless if you manage to complete a run, or not. Cause wipes or not, you have screwed them over.

If you want to be boosted, then say so, and find players willing to do that for you.

Not gemming - enchanting, is demanding to be boosted. Your lower performance forces other players to fill in the gap you leave, regardless of you doing 8k dps or 18k. Those gems would have improved your performance, and not having them, is just insulting to the rest of your group.

There is never an excuse for not bringing your top performance to a situation where you are playing with others. If you want to slack of find others willing to accept your slacking, or do solo content. But never, ever, show up in a situation where you are forcing others to carry extra weighth you could have carried yourself.

This is not some elitist view, its rather a very simple statement of fact.

Not bringing your best, is being selfish. And in group content you are dealing with a team. There is no I in team.

Squishalot said...

@ Panthro - do you play a Fury Warrior? Can you explain why reforging haste/mastery/expertise over cap for 20% hit is a bad thing for a Fury Warrior? Please, do enlighten us.

See the link that Ephemeron posted. Gevlon has argued in the past that 'good enough' is sufficient. If someone with 2k DPS is capable of beating Patch within 6 minutes, a few seconds before the enrage timer, then he's 'good enough'. Likewise, 8k single target trash, no CDs, is 'good enough' to go through troll heroics.

You're missing the point though. The demand was for a performance level higher than what was provided by the demander. Again, Adanedar was (essentially) demanding to be boosted by someone better than him/her.

So again, who is the M&S?

It's a discussion because Gevlon suffered from many M&S symptoms in kicking the guy.

Anonymous said...

@ Squishalot

I have a warrior alt with prot PvE and fury PvE. I don't play it much (too simple).

This is what EJ warrior FAQ says

Q: What are my stat priorities?
A: Get 8% Hit (including Precision), 26 Expertise. After that, TG prioritizes Strength > Crit > Hit > Mastery > Haste. SMF prioritizes Strength > Crit > Hit > Haste > Mastery.

He is TG. He is reforging correct. He knows his stat priorities. He probably knows his class. He is also reforging for raiding. I was wrong when I said he was wrongly reforging his expertise away: he has 45/45 expertise, far above the cap.

Fact is, upon a simple inspect (takes me 10 sec with about 80% of all classes/roles; I know most pretty well) you notice he isn't gemming and enchanting a lot of his gear even when there are cheap gems and enchants available. He has License to Slay, so he has done TBP dailies ~100 times. This yielded him at least 1600g. All the time, he did this while slacking on his gear. I have already pointed out that his glyphs are a complete failure due to slacking although this is something which you cannot find by /inspect there was enough reason already to not play with this person.

To the person who thought he was gearing up his prot spec while DPS: Yes, he is gearing prot up as well. You can see that in his history. Or he is needing and then vendoring. Lets not assume such. More important however is that he didn't buy cloak ilvl 378 for tank. He did buy the melee/plate one though hence we can safely assume he isn't serious about his prot spec, it is his OS.

Now, to those who say that its all about skill and that gear cannot make up for it: yes, but gear can add to skill. If this fellow put effort in his character, minimal even, he'd pull out much more DPS. The group would clear the instance quicker (unless, like many warriors, he is dumb enough to overagro). Since the instances are easy, and there are other ways to get good gear, the only time lack of skill comes in the way is when the person is severely undergeared or barely geared for the content.

Steve said...

Squishalot, what the hell is wrong with you? More times than not it really seems that guys like you and Azzuriel only argue for the sake of arguing or to vent your hatered of Gevlon. You should really find a different outlet.

Fex already said it best in his 2 posts here:

Regardless of weather or not the guy could pull his weighth, the fact that he shows up in a group environement ungemmed, and unenchanted is blatantely expecting others to make up for his lack of effort.

Not bringing your best, is being selfish. And in group content you are dealing with a team. There is no I in team.

If you still don't understand that, I suggest you read those 2 posts again, and maybe once more after that, just to be sure.

Moreover, it is also essentially irrelevant what Gevlon wrote 2 years ago. People are allowed to modify or even change their opinions, even when they express them as vehemently as Gevlon usually does (*gasp* ... shocking, I know ...).

Others then are certainly free to point to that discprepancy which in turn could develop into a meaningful discussion. It is completely beyond me why one should expect people to stand by every statement they ever made for the rest of their life.

By far the most ridiculous thing you have posted here so far is this:

Adanedar (and Gevlon, by extension) is demanding a level of performance greater than what is required (at a minimum, a la Patchwerk) to complete the dungeon.

I have highlighted the interesting passage. Suggesting that Adanedar is some sort of extension of Gevlon's mind is utterly absurd. The screenshot doesn't give any direct indication of what Gevlon deems acceptable performance. He outright doesn't accept the fact that someone wants to participate in a group activity without adhering to standard norms (just as Fex already explained).

You are, of course, free to interprete the group's silent treatment of Adanedar's performance demands as consent. That remains, however, an interpretation.

The only thing that Gevlon has done "wrong" here is, again, calling someone names. That kind of behaviour is never acceptable!

Anonymous said...

From the limited evidence presented the chain of events would appear to be:

A, Random person joins LFD for a 5 man heroic.
B, Finds himself in a group with 4 guildies.
C, Says "morning" in response to initial greeting.
D, 30 Sec later is verbally (in text context) abused.
E, Receives arbitrary performance requirement from guildie 'A'.
F, Responds to initial abuse.
G, Receives 2nd helping of implied abuse reiterating initial abuse.
H, Receives criticism (useless) based on the initial abusers opinion.
I, Guildy ‘A’ reiterates arbitrary performance requirement.
J, Receives 3rd helping of abuse based on the initial abusers opinion.
K, Provides evidence of performance in only way possible at that time, to guildy ‘A’s twice stated requirement. (Test virtually meaningless, but only one available at that point)
L, Guildy ‘A’ fails to meet self stated standard specified. (Reason unknown)
M, Attempts to defend position using only evidence available.
N, States that he isn’t being boosted because he meets the standard required. (To take this statement to mean he is reporting guildy ‘G’ for not boosting him is a self serving possibly deliberate misunderstanding, see below). “Scrubb” is a retaliatory response to previous abuse, and is empowered by his apparent vindication having met the required standard.
P, “Harrasment” (Sic) (evidence supports this) and “spoiling his enjoyment of the game” (not an unexpected consequence given the treatment received) would appear valid.

No evidence of un-acceptable behaviour available. If there were, no doubt it would be presented.

“He is believing that me not boosting him is a crime that deserves punishment from Blizzard.”
“He believes that being useless is not an (excusable, understandable, out of his control) mistake but a right and not carrying him is evil.”

Incorrect conclusions based on (possibly deliberate) self serving misinterpretation.

Gevlon, you should search out this guy and apologise. Additionally you should post here acknowledging that you made a mistake in interpreting his words, to bolster your own beliefs. Your post is baseless.

Anonymous said...

'Not bringing your best, is being selfish. And in group content you are dealing with a team. There is no I in team.

If you still don't understand that, I suggest you read those 2 posts again, and maybe once more after that, just to be sure.'

You say that as if being selfish is a bad thing. I thought the goblin philosophy quite valued selfishness. Or is that only when it applies to the goblin.

Maybe he's a goblin. Maybe he thinks there are better, more profitable ways of spending his in game time than enchanting/gemming or whatever, just to keep random PUG members happy.

Shintar said...

Regardless of whether you agree with the idea of kicking someone for lacking gems/enchants/glyphs or not, I think this post is interesting because it shows Gevlon either being hypocritical or clearly having changed his mind about the "Good enough" post that someone already linked. Of course he is allowed to change his mind, but I for one have been getting the impression that he still prides himself in not having unreasonable gear requirements for joining group activities in The Pug. Considering that this was only a five-man, making such a fuss about missing gems strikes me as way over the top.

Also, the whole situation as described just comes across as Gevlon acting extremely "social" and not at all logical. It makes sense to kick someone if they don't perform, it doesn't make sense to kick someone just because you don't like the look of their shoes. He mocks the warrior for supposedly blowing cooldowns on trash, as if that's a bad thing (they should easily be up again by the time they get to the boss). On the other hand he brushes off the shaman's less than stellar performance as slacking but at the same time doesn't mind it because he's a guildie.

I'd like to see a follow-up post to this with some sort of clarification of how this is supposed to make sense.

Panthro said...

Sorry, I can't tell you right now all the bad reforging/enchanting of this warrior because he/she logged off with full pvp equipment WITHOUT ANY GEM OR ENCHANT ON IT, and he/she's doing pvp being a fury warrior with titan grip AND USING A ONE-HANDED WEAPON IN HIS/HER MAIN HAND. HOLLY MACARRONI, we can't afford us the luxury of wasting his/her talent with stupid things like "performance" and "not-sucking-in-gearing-up"! Send him/her an idinvite, make a real-crossed party and go hit those meany trolls in da face!!!

If Gevlon told in the past that you could down Patchwerk only doing 2ks, I wouldn't care less than a fuck about it. Because Patchwerk is not actual content. If Gevlon wanted to go with a full raid and pray to all his gods that the boss would be killed by a not-optimal raid playing absurdly perfect, it's his own stupid problem (or point, don't care).
Thing is, right now, he doesn't want to "try" and see if the performance of this warrior matches its hilarious gearing, and you know why? BECAUSE TIME COSTS MONEY. Welcome to the!

Coralina said...

I am curious as to why you inspected at that point?

I pug all the time. These days I am a casual non raider and only ever do 5 man dungeons. I haven't done a single guild run in the whole of Cataclysm. I have never felt the need to inspect someone in all that time and I don't have any kind of GS/ilevel add-on either.

I certainly wouldn't feel the need to inspect someone after the first bit of trash when they are outputting more than a guildie. It is almost like you entered that content looking for trouble.

If someone is preventing us from progressing due to “not enough” or failing on mechanics then I kick them. I don't bother inspecting and dishing out advice because I know they don't listen. Also calling someone by the “r” word tends to switch them off and will result in a ban for you if he carried out his threat.

It is expected that people will join these groups missing enchants or gems. There is little point moralising about it and saying it is selfish etc. That rule applies to your guild but it isn't worth a penny in a random group.

Blizzard are aware that people join whilst missing enchants and gems and so they give you a whopping 15% buff. In this case there was no buff but that just emphasises the fact that the guy was doing “enough” on his merit. They also nerfed bosses in the troll dungeons to make it easier for you.

I started out healing these groups in 346, I had no guildies backing me up, I was in a group of strangers that would kick me for the slightest mistake and show zero tolerance despite it being my first run. I just had to hope and pray I had not forgotten anything from the youtube videos I watched. I was also healing people that failed on mechanics and no doubt missed enchants and gems.

I therefore find it amusing that you hotshot raiders in your fancy raid gear find it necessary to “cheese” this content and stack groups in your favour in order to clear it. Instead of inspecting the guy (I mean why did you?!?) you should have knuckled down and got on with it just like I do. I also find it amusing that one of your dps is barely average in terms of what I see in DF and the other DPS and Tank are well below what I tend to see. Hardly a group I'd expect to see dishing out kicks or finger pointing!

You pays your money and you takes your chance. I could wait forever to get four optimised guildies together at the same time of whom none are capped, none have “dinner soon” and none are busy doing dailies or PVP etc. Or I can join via DF instantly on my tank or in 5 minutes on my healer in the knowledge that I may have some guys who aren't reaching their full potential but whom I can kick if they don't do enough. You know what to expect but it is your own choice.

As it was you could have probably one-shot every single boss and had 140VP within 30 minutes. Instead you got debuffed and will probably face a short ban. That is a high price to pay for a moral crusade. I totally agree that he is a slacker, but you were there to collect 140VP and lost of sight of that fact.

This type of behaviour by your guild is what led to Blizz placing terrible limitations on kicking. As a result of your actions it is harder for casual players like me to remove really bad players and clear this content.

Anonymous said...

Random guy in Random 5-man performs better than better geared Guildy, Random gets abuse and flak 'because if he was geared better, he'd outperform Guildy even more'.

Sorry, but this just stinks.

Sure, he would perfom better with better Gear, but this is clearly not judging people based on their actual performance but on wether they are Guilded.

In a PUG Dungeon Finder environment, no less.

If you want to create a Group befitting standards that go above Blizzard's standards, you should make your own Group before using the Tool by getting that last member by e.g. Trade.

Of course that requires more effort, but wasn't the basic premise that people that don't want to put in effort are Slackers?

We never ran into these issues when you had to go to the actual Dungeon, by the way. The Tool has made people lazy.

Anonymous said...

Countless of times have I done LFD with M&S. People who had PvP gear on, only PvP specs, PvP gear in their bags, or did not enchant or gem their gear.

When one doesn't even want to start to play with someone means that what he observed is so severe that there isn't even reason to try.

Also keep in mind you cannot kick until 15 min have passed. So you can sit there, or teleport out do something useful.

The initial evidence was some ungemmed/unenchanted, and the slacker theory is further supported by the fact the person does know about class stat priority (reforges correct), isn't in his off spec, and misses important glyphs a leveling fury warrior would have. Yes, a leveling warrior!!

You lot keep attacking Gevlon on all kind of grounds, and do make good points (linking "Good enough" article, verbal abuse) but completely ignore the fact that while Gevlon judged quick and did not bother to try he is completely within his right both moral as well as according to Blizzard rules to NOT play with this warrior. You cannot be forced to play the game with someone.

Some pointed out that it was a 4m guild group with a 5th PuG. They all got penalized when they agreed to votekick the warrior no matter if the kick was justified or not. Blizzard has a protection mechanism built-in against harassment from 4 people who queued together.

The warrior also replied unfriendly (verbal abuse) so he has no reason to complain about that.

Problem solved; there is no problem. Nobody will receive infraction on account for what happened here.

Bronte said...

At least he didn't claim you were a "bad healer" because you couldn't heal hi through a "little firewall".

Count your blessings Goblin.

old wow bastard said...

I think I have to agree with Gevlon on this one more or less.

Unfortunately in these circumstances you have to occasionally make a quick judgement about someone else's potential performance.

ZG tends to be a bit of a pain with bad pugs; most notably the first fight (due to the poison maze) and the last fight (due to the fact that people actually have to think, deal with a target priority, and not stand in stuff.) As a veteran of too many PUGs myself

I cannot find fault with Gevlon for kicking the guy after realizing he was not gemmed/enchanted properly. Here's why; if that player can't even equip themselves properly, how can you expect them to play properly.

I'd honestly have to say, good job Gev. You saved yourself some time and headache.

old wow bastard said...

@ coralina

"I am curious as to why you inspected at that point?"

This is pretty common in 5 mans.

"I pug all the time. These days I am a casual non raider and only ever do 5 man dungeons. I haven't done a single guild run in the whole of Cataclysm. I have never felt the need to inspect someone in all that time and I don't have any kind of GS/ilevel add-on either."

I'd have to argue your performance requirements are drastically different than Gev's; additionally you probably do these runs as a main activity. He was there to pick up some VP.

"It is almost like you entered that content looking for trouble."

Have you run a 5 man Zulroic recently? Trouble is easy to find in LFD pugs…..

"If someone is preventing us from progressing due to “not enough” or failing on mechanics then I kick them. I don't bother inspecting and dishing out advice because I know they don't listen."

This is not true; I've taken pugs that were on their 7th Jin'do wipe and talked them through a good strat. I've gotten bad DPS to drop group without a kick by calling them out. It's always good to try and communicate.

"It is expected that people will join these groups missing enchants or gems. There is little point moralising about it and saying it is selfish etc. That rule applies to your guild but it isn't worth a penny in a random group."

See my above line about differing performance requirements.

"I started out healing these groups in 346, I had no guildies backing me up…"

Pretty sure this comment outlines a few things clearly.

1) You are concerned with Gevlon's approach because of your own personal experience with rejection in these instances. You might need to accept that your view is pretty biased.
2) I've rarely kicked healers for underperforming; I never kick them for letting dps die to bad mechanics. Your statement about being kicked for the slightest infraction seems odd, especially considering the nature of the kick system in LFD as it is implemented.
3) Maybe if you had mentioned to these people that "hey I know I'm not keeping you all alive, but half of you are standing in poison and the others aren't enchanted or gemmed" you could have avoided a kick….

"As it was you could have probably one-shot every single boss and had 140VP within 30 minutes. Instead you got debuffed and will probably face a short ban. That is a high price to pay for a moral crusade. I totally agree that he is a slacker, but you were there to collect 140VP and lost of sight of that fact."

They won't be banned, if you die and then leave group it's a ~8 minute or less debuff. They would not have 1 shot everything with that guy.

"This type of behaviour by your guild is what led to Blizz placing terrible limitations on kicking. As a result of your actions it is harder for casual players like me to remove really bad players and clear this content."

This is a bit contradictory; you state that you shouldn't care about performance, gemming, etc. But then you complain because you can't kick people……..

Anonymous said...


It's expected that people don't gem their gear for a TROLL HEROIC? Geez, someone should let Blizzard know about all that time they wasted putting sockets on those 346s you're required to have to get into the place.

Coralina said...

Plenty of strawmen popping up here again.

For example when I say that it is expected that people won't be gemmed or enchanted in these dungeons what I clearly meant is that if you enter a random dungeon you are a fool if you are expecting not to bump into players that have neglected those gems and enchants. It goes with the territory.

I mean hey join via DF and a guy in your group has no gems. Wow what a shocker! Better call the news papers and sell your story!

If you want to be anal about it though, Blizzard could quite easily restrict access to DF if your toon fails the character audit and the system is already in place and ready to go. Yet they choose not to...

Total nonsense about my performance requirements being different. For a start I have a hell of a lot less mana that Gevlon, a lot lower regen rates and my heals are far smaller. I actually require a higher DPS output and a greater avoidance of boss mechanics from my team mates than what Gevlon can get away with. Plus he had four guildies in his group who should have been providing that.

I aim to cap my VP each week. Yes I don't raid any more so effectively it is my end game but I still aim to cap that stuff as quickly as possible. I want to gather as many VP as possible in my limited play time. Hence why I choose DF rather than waiting hours to find a set of guildies who all want to do the same thing at the same time. Even with suboptimal players doing low dps it is still quicker in DF.

Gevlon could have scoured trade and inspected people. Instead he chose the quicker join via DF route and took a random pot luck DPS which of course carries a potential price that he was well aware of. I put it to you that the price he paid was not high given that the random guy beat his guildie by the very same standards they had chosen to judge him by. So it has nothing to do with my standards, we are talking about the clearly defined output standards that Gevlons group stated at the time.

When talking about “I started out healing these groups in 346, I had no guildies backing me up… “ I was merely highlighting the fact that if I could do it with no experience, no second chances allowed and the minimum gear required to get in then why did Gevlons premade group with four guildies who have done it many times before and kitted out in raid gear need that 5th guy to be optimal in order to complete it in a reasonable time?

The worse strawman of all award goes to this utter “I didnt read a word you wrote” garbage:

“This is a bit contradictory; you state that you shouldn't care about performance, gemming, etc. But then you complain because you can't kick people…….. “

I said I cared about performance – if a guy blocks my progress by doing “not enough” or repeatedly failing on mechanics I kick him. I couldn't care less whether he has gems or not, I don't even bother inspecting him. I only care about the performance. In this case the guy was performing to the standards that the group had set. Not my standards – Gevlons teams standards. Thanks to the actions of people like Gevlon I now have all sorts of restrictions preventing me from kicking the true baddy DK in PVP gear pulling 5k dps and running towards me when we get toxic linked.

Squishalot said...

@ Steve: I disagree with Gevlon's moral crusade, because I think it's a pointless, worthless endeavour. I think it's important to point out flaws in his arguments and any analysis so that the social fanboys who blindly follow him and worship his words (as opposed to critically analysing and questioning) aren't lead astray. Where better to point that out other than his blog?

I'm happy to credit Gevlon for a good idea when he comes up with one. The issue is that he's turned his blog into a more philosophy-based one, rather than 'gaming idea innovation' one. Morality is not Gevlon's strong point, especially when he tries to bring in things he's even weaker in (like clinical psychology) to back up his arguments.

Gevlon is not fighting a crusade against 'being selfish'. He believes that ungemmed, unenchanted gear is an indicator of M&S performance. His primary concern isn't that the person isn't being 'the best he can be', his primary concern is that the person is a lolling idiot in ilvl350+ gear who will cause the group to wipe, or unduly cause the group to take significantly longer than required.

Regarding Adanedar's demands, is demanding a performance level above your own not boosting? Is he still a part of The PuG, despite asking (implicitly) to be boosted? If he's still part of The PuG, despite the demand, is that not an implicit acceptance of his behaviour by Gevlon? It is interpretation, certainly, because there is no explicit demand by Gevlon himself, which is why I pointed out that it is "by extension".

Regarding Gevlon's change of tune, he's entitled to be a hypocrite, just like the rest of us. However, if someone intends to be a hypocrite, he should be ready to be called out.

@ Panthro: "Thing is, right now, he doesn't want to "try" and see if the performance of this warrior matches its hilarious gearing, and you know why? BECAUSE TIME COSTS MONEY."

Did you completely miss the fact that he sat around waiting for 15 minutes so he could kick the guy (and took the chance of needing to sit around for a FURTHER 15 minutes if he got another ungemmed / fail DPS in LFD), or are you intentionally trolling?

No, Gevlon wasn't optimising his time. He was enforcing his moral opinion on 'boosting', at his own cost.

Anonymous said...

Gevlon, you misunderstood him at 10:29
G: "Do you want to boost him all the time?"
G: "You report me for what?"
PUG: "your not boosting me you scrubb"

He wasn't suggesting that he reported you for not boosting him. At one second after your second question, he was responding to your first question about whether to boost him. He misspelled "you're"; it should have been "You're not boosting me, you scrub". The "enjoyment of the game" you were spoiling was the enjoyment of being free from insults and objectification in a random pug; no suggestion that you must carry him or face official sanction.

I don't see anything reportable in what you said but I do think his defensiveness is understandable. He was clearly upset about your wording and calling you a scrub was a direct consequence of your shitty attitude. Many people would reach for some sort of defense/protection in similar situations.

Say what you like about the M&S. They exist. I just don't think you were grouped with one there.

Anonymous said...


Not bringing your best, is being selfish. And in group content you are dealing with a team. There is no I in team.

Oh noes! Being Selfish! How utterly terrible! You poor dears must clearly have no idea that the title of the freaking blog is "GREEDY GOBLIN".

Gevlon has made the point here time and time again, that such social ideas of 'belonging to the group' or altruism for the sake of everyone else is stupid. No one should be forced to take care of others just because they a lol friends. To that end anyone should only be required to do an amount of work/damage that will get the job done. If you're forced to do above and beyond that, then that's because you need to carry someone else who's not pulling their weight. There's no 'guys we need to do 15k dps so my best bro who only does 2k can come along, because we are friends and a team' sort of nonsense.

Azuriel said...

Not bringing your best, is being selfish.

There is no "selfish," there is only social and asocial.

Putting that aside, as others mentioned, Gevlon is way out beyond the realms where his social theory first began. For an asocial individual, performance should be the only metric. If there are no wipes and the run was smooth, what does it matter that the hunter was in greens? Even when you start adding arbitrary benchmarks like 10k DPS, what does it matter that a warrior is unenchanted and ungemmed if said warrior exceeded it? Is it somehow "better" that a fully enchanted, glyphed, gemmed shaman playing at 100% capacity is just barely passing 10k, as opposed to another shaman with nothing of the sort, playing at 60% capacity, just breezing past 11k without trying?

To Gevlon, this is now a matter of principle, not fact. It matters more than performance that someone be dressed to Gevlon's proper standards. No doubt he would accept a M&S in a suit and tie ("but the suit and tie proves he's not M&S!") over a shaggy bum that could run circles around his best guild members and prove to be much more of an asset to the raid's success. After all, it is not about success anymore, it is about proving lipstick on a pig makes a difference.

Anonymous said...

The stated point of the post:

"He is believing that me not boosting him is a crime that deserves punishment from Blizzard"

"He believes that being useless is not an (excusable, understandable, out of his control) mistake but a right and not carrying him is evil"

"He doesn't ask for help, he tries to take it by force"

Would appear to be untruthful reflections of what actually happened.

"The vote kick feature put a quick end to his 'DEMANDS'(my emphasis) and threats"

He did not make any demands in the screen-shots published

A possibly more correct interpretation:

10:29:05 - You ask your party/Adenedar if they wish to boost him

10:29:12 - Gordellius states that (In his opinion) you aren't boosting him

Could you possibly comment on this Gevlon?

Anonymous said...

Meh...I'm looking forward to tanking the troll stuff in bloody gear...and don't expect I'll spend much on enchantments. :) Just think of it as a 'direct' path to gearing up...nothing like hitting 360ish before your first heroic.

You don't have to boost'll end up waiting a bit. :)

That said, while the gear probably predicts performance...your article would have been more convincing if you waited for boss dps. If the guy does normal dps and takes normal damage...meh...I wouldn't kick him for not gemming.

Yaggle said...

To me, if you want to hold off on buying glyphs, gems, or enchants, if you are soloing that is fine, in fact it is even "goblinish" not to spend money if you do not need to. But when grouped up it is effectively a "team sport", whether you liken that to highest level pro sports or Wednesday night bowling league, when you play on a team, you do your best. If you are the best on your team, you don't use your worst bowling ball because you are the best on the team already. You bring the best equipment you can and try the best you can, because even if you are better than average, you still do your best when you are on the team. So if you show up for a pug without gems or enchants, it is disrespectful of the other players, even if you think you can do your share anyways.

Pretension said...

As a slacker myself, and someone who would concievably come to a troll heroic with unenchanted and ungemmed blues, I feel somewhat ... intrested, in posting the reason I would do such a thing in other to see the responses thereof. So here goes.

Note:Skip to the next paragraph after this one for my point, this is backstory in how I would end up in ZA/ZG with unenchanted blues/greens
"Woo Hoo" troll heroics, bosses dropping near raid level gear while taking maybe 1/10th of the time to clear, not to mention extremely easy to get a group for. This is the first place I would go upon hitting 85 for gear, while saying a big "no no" (normally this bit would be a vulgarity, but sadly I'm currently in my ... "high class" voice)
But guess how I would get into that place? running heroics for gear? The only thing that would accomplish is to make the ZA/ZG gear LESS of an upgrade for me, DECREASING efficiency at the cost of time, and I might be a slacker, but I'm not a moron. Doing quests for reputation? What the heck for? I had 5 levels worth of questing I did which was necessary, if there was something nice I could get on the way, I'd have it, and any more questing is more or less a waste of time when you can get near the same level gear for far less time in ZG. Which of course leaves the third option for gear, buying it, likely off the AH, but wait, if I buy gear off the AH and equip it, I suffer the same diminishing returns as running heroics for gear, the ZG/ZA instances will now be less efficient since the upgrades are now worthless or worth less (ha, ha, ha, pun ...)depending on whether I bought blues or epics off the AH, so my solution is obvious to simply buy whatever BoEs of the AH with high level I can, and then HOLD ON TO THEM, selling them once they're no longer needed to boost ilvl. The result of that would mean that I would squeak by the 346 ilvl barrier using (as a rogue) 2 DM cards one for tanks, as that's the cheapest, and another one that I have on hand. Then comes the crafted belt and chest, I had purchaased those eventually, but at the time I dinged it was pretty late, so no crafters were online, so I simply bought a caster belt and chest, for resale after I obtain my chest and belt. And then I bought the ilvl 346 reputation gear avaliable to me from question (naturally ignoring such things as stats or armor type since they're only there for ilvl) And bam I hit ilvl 346 despite my equiped ilvl being around the 300 level. (Naturally some of these questing greens/blues would be enchanted with whatever scrolls I had on hand during questing, and gemmed the same way. Since you obviously level faster if you kill stuff faster.)

Note: Broken into two since the post was too big

Pretension said...


Now that I've landed a spot in the actual dungeon, while being dangerously low on ilvl and enchants/gems, what do I do? Obviously an extra large helping of skill is necessary for this part, in order to pump out enough DPS that people don't inspect my gear and find out I'm using greens in ZA. Which is usually upon 10k DPS, something I did with slight difficulty, as I was unfamiliar with the subtlety spec (It's primary attack is backstab, and somewhat suprisingly, while leveling, most mobs didn't want to turn their backs to me for some reason, so I had to level as assassination)

It should be obvious that I am slacking big time in going in with questing greens, obviously expecting to be "boosted" by players with "superior" gear. As might be expected, my 10k DPS didn't really attrack alot of attention since that seems to be the median DPS for ZG/ZA, though the mean might be higher. So with that my rogue ran a few troll heroics untill I got enough gear and justice/valor points to fill my character page with nothing but blue and purple. This took me maybe 5 hours, played, since I probably queued for 3 additional hours, queue times are horrid for DPS, good thing my main is a warrior.

Obviously during the process I would end up with various pieces of blues (from justice points to prevent capping) and purples (from drops/valor) which would either be immediently gemmed + enchanted with gems (mainly red agi ones) and scrolls (mainly agi scrolls) give me several pieces of ungemmed and unenchanted gear which provide significantly more damage than my enchanted greens and blues from questing. Naturally this might get me kicked if I get inspected, though I doubt it since I was pumping out around 17k DPS near the middle of the process due to a better understanding of the rotation.

Note: Turns out, I needed to break it into 4 pieces

Pretension said...

The intresting bit is what my response would have been if looking for gems/enchants became the norm. (cheers for the tragedy of commons) Am I going to spend 15 minutes walking around after every instance I finished which provided a drop to find an enchanter/jewelcrafter if I didn't have the gem/scroll on hand? HECK NO. What I would have done is intentionally wear only the encanted questing blues and greens which, while lowering actual performance, would bypass most peoples idiot/moron/slacker filters, since obviously someone who enchants gear is less likely to be stupid. (Which is true, though in this case the smart=more DPS theorem is broken, heh) This would have been my modus operandi had I have been kicked for having unenchanted gear, I would simply run the rest with my crappy leveling items. (Naturally needing everything that's an upgrade even if I have the exact same thing in my bags, hail capitalism)

It should then be noted that this is a game of prisoner's dilemma where the slacking genius always wins. Either you don't kick for unenchanted gear, in which case I get fast upgrades despite being "boosted" while during superior DPS due to my superior "cough" skill "cough," or I get boosted using enchanted greens/blues since I appear to be simply a competent player who hasn't been lucky with his item drops. (While I get slightly more gold since I can need on more items without penalty, though at the cost of doing the run slightly slower due to sub-optimal gear.) So naturally this should be the method which people like me turn to to gear up should this become the norm, which punishes only the votekickers. (If you don't kick, you "suffer" from having someone who would have done more dps had he bothered to pay 5k a piece for epics nearly identical to the ones he's getting at around 2/hr in ZG/ZA + gems/enchants. Should be noted that my performance is above the mean once past my first run getting used to the rotation, so the non-kickers are actully winning from this. Whereas the kickers would suffer from the fact that I was in fact above average. Therefore over time, the replacement will more often be worse than better, not to mention the penalty of kicking.) Now if only I could get more copies of me to play WoW, so that the huge numbers of actual morons doesn't skew this prisoners dilemma.

Note: You get the point by now, I really need to be more concise

Pretension said...

Note: This might be an repost, but can't tell since my posts aren't visible yet

The Afterward, which is completely unrelated to the Preface:

Hit is an excellent stat for warriors untill HARD CAP, which is something in the five thousands or something. It's a huge number. (For fury of course, arms has it easier, but then, arms doesn't use expertiese. Freaking overpowered overpower.) This is because some 33% of a fury warriors DPS comes from auto attack, which is boosted by hit, which reduces the 26% miss rate on dual wield attacks. It should be noted that since dodges generate rage, (Dunno about parry, but you should be behind the boss anyway) while missed hit doesn't, hit has the double advantage of also increasing rage gained, which = more special abilities using rage, since warriors are constantly rage starved now. Expertiese only helps in increasing auto attack damage and special attack damage, though at a better conversion ratio. Long story short, white hit (auto attack hit) is roughly equal to expertiese after factoring in rage gained. Also it should be noted that expertise only turns white dodge/parries into misses last time I checked, which was 2 years ago, so that might've changed, so you'd need hit anyway in order to make white auto attacks do more damage. (This seems like it should be fixed, since if this was the case, expertise LOWERS rage generation, "LOL".) So in anyway, crit and hit would be the two best stats for warriors, since both increase damage AND increases rage gained, crit obviously being superior since it increases white damage at a rate greater than or equal to hit (Deep Wounds means crit is stronger for white damage) and since crits generate 2x rage, crit gives the same amount of rage as hit, since hit increases at roughly the same rate as crit, their conversion that is, and 1% more white attack is roughly equal to 1% of white attacks giving 2x normal rage. (1 is roughly equal to 1) Expertise suffers from flexibility issues in the hit vs. expertise faceoff (crit trumps both easily.) Since one, it has a easily reached cap beyond which it's completely worthless, and which can be reached with 3 pieces of gear with expertise. (2 if you're using the elixir, for the prismatic flask resistance) and 2, it scales poorly for arms, since overpower means expertise is far worse than white hit, which unfortunately has a lower hard cap, so I guess mastery/haste gets better in comparison, don't know how much, but I think mastery would be the 2nd best rating stat after hit is capped. (Crit is still king) So expertise flat out loses if you're even a tiny bit over the cap or use arms (unless your weapon was the item with expertise it, but it's kind of retarded to gear for weapons with expertise for that reason.) Besides, even in PvP gear, warriors suffer little from the rating loss, STR is worth around 2x YELLOW HIT, which is the strongest rating stat ever, so an ilvl boost of say ... 12? should more than compensate for half of the ratings being useless if you're using PvP gear. Also, to those saying melees are easy, try an subtlety rogue, and tell me it's easy after you can hit 20k DPS in ilvl 350, on a patchwrek fight. (Though admittedly the fury rotation is somewhat ... lackluster, having an ability that you either spam 50% of the time (not enough haste to hit 1s GCD) or 33% of the time (Heroism or stacking haste like a moron) with basically random filler inbetween which can probably be filled with a /castrandom macro at maybe an 10% DPS loss. But hey, that's why I play subtlety)

Péter Zoltán said...

That's why you don't speak to retards, just kick them right away when their underperformance is obvious. 99% of the cases the votekick will pass.

honj90 said...

@Fex and supporters

As others stated before, you can't kick someone for "being selfish". At least gevlon, who has advocated for the idea of asocial, selfish behaviour certainly can't. Also, what do you care if he plays at his maximum performance? Would you rather play with an ungemmed, slacking paragon fun-alt who plays while watching TV and still doing 15K dps, or with the honest, hard-working but not so skilled guy who does his best at 11k dps?

I think on this one you kicked him more on "moral principle" than actually following your own goblinish logic. You assume a correlation between skill and gears/enchants, which, while it stands true most of the time doesn't necessarily have to be. You had counterevidence that he was actually pulling his weight and there is no proof about your argument of him blowing all the CDs. You intentionaly placed a "punishment" on yourself (loosing time inspecting, arguing, kicking etc.) just to follow your principle of never boosting someone. Assuming you don't care much about the speed of trash killing (you said yourself your shaman was slacking on trash, as if you didn't mind it) and that the warrior was skilled enough for trash (he proved that) you'd better wait until the first boss. The worst you could risk was one single wipe (which wasn't even sure) while you'd start with your new, hopefully better player directly at first boss.

Anonymous said...

"I put it to you that the price he paid was not high given that the random guy beat his guildie by the very same standards they had chosen to judge him by."

Yawn. No, not by the guild group. By an individual: the shaman. It was a dumb metric because warrior DD do high DPS. A friend of mine played warrior as main in 4.0/4.1. He was prot PvE, arms PvP. I went tank on one of my tanks, a DK. He did 20-22k DPS single target as arms in full PvP spec and gear. Why? First, warrior DD is highest melee DPS in patch 4.0 and 4.1. Second, a faceroll rotation (fury more so than arms). Third, he has 5% hit in PvP gear which is enough in PvE lvl 85 random HCs. No matter how much DPS this warrior we discuss did he was a slacker, and he could have done a lot more if he was replaced by almost any other warrior.

Second, he had 3x luck of the draw buff. If you add 15% to the shaman's DPS and subtract 15% off the warrior's DPS (which is in total a 30% difference) then their DPS would be equal. This was while the warrior was trying to prove his high DPS on one trash mob. The shaman was not.

Third, if you have someone in your group who does not gem or enchant their gear you have a slacker. A lazy scumbag. Do you want to play with such a person? Would you want to have such a person as your co-worker? Your friend? Some sloppy punk who stinks, looks unwashed? I wouldn't want to sit next to such a person. Let him play with other people of his kind: other slackers, punks.

As for you not inspecting anyone in a random group of PuGs, Carolina: your choice. In my opinion utterly retarded. If you are with a group with random people in it you want to know how well they are doing. What can you expect? What are your chances? What could be problems? You want to know everyone's role, spec, and how well geared are they. If I tank, I always inspect the healer. I even check his spec. Since I know all 4 healer classes this goes quickly for me. In 20 seconds I have seen them both. If I heal, I always inspect the tank. Is he a stamina stacking moron (I still see them on trade: "tank 171k ub LFG Nefarian")? And if I queue with 4 people I inspect the 5th because if he is a slacker I can kick him out with no hassle.

"Did you completely miss the fact that he sat around waiting for 15 minutes so he could kick the guy (and took the chance of needing to sit around for a FURTHER 15 minutes if he got another ungemmed / fail DPS in LFD), or are you intentionally trolling?"

I once got queued with guilds "WARTH OF TEH PPV KIGNX". They are known for acting like lolkids and talk like that, everywhere. Except when they want to sell something on trade. So in /g, in /trade, and yes in /p in LFD. I ended up with 4 of them as healer. I respecced. Tank pulled immediately with me on low mana, no CC. Then surprised we wiped. They tried to communicate with me, but in their silly language I'm not going to invest time. I decided to bail out and gather herbs. They had to wait 15 min before they could kick me, and that served them right for being assholes (this was before the limit of X minutes being outside of instance before you could be kicked). Did I waste time? Yes, I wasted time: I didn't leave the instance right away when I was 4 of those buggers. Otherwise, I wasted 0 time, since the herbs were useful (it was in the beginning of patch 4.0). They kept saying: HELAR? WHER U??? I ignored, and laughed at the fact that I was wasting _their_ time.

Even if they are wasting your time: do not express! They win that way! I have been tanking and refused to carry on unless person X left. Person X could've been a moron who needed on agi gear while being a str user. Person X could've been a PvP geared scrub. It doesn't matter. Just stand at the entrance and go do something useful. I just grab my laptop and use it, while having my desktop on the side because some rogues and hunters are smart enough to ToT/MD you and then leave. If they do so, I make a ticket for harassment.

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry, Gevlon, this one doesn't pass the sniff test. It appears you were having an impatient day and didn't wait for evidence to pass judgement. If he's pulling 10-14k, you're not boosting him. He's guilty of not gemming/enchanting his blue gear, but in today's environment, you don't need to do that to beat ZG/ZA bosses with quest given 371 purples and crafted gear. - Cydd of Deathwing.