Greedy Goblin

Monday, April 4, 2011


Patch 4.1 re-introduces Zul-Aman and Zul-Gurub as 5-man heroics, providing ilvl 353 gear. What is the point? I asked for long. I mean the relevant raids provide 359. It would make sense to provide 359 items when Firelands is out to let new players gear up without raiding old content. It would even make sense to provide 359 now to "casuals" who "don't have time" to raid.

But no, Blizzard give people 353 gear. For long I thought they are making a mistake. Then I remembered the old saying "Blizzard makes billions, not mistakes". The 353 gear is just perfect.

The key to understand is that only serious raiders can fail. "ppl who play 4 fun" never-ever fail. They simply don't have gear. The reason why they can't do Magmaw is definitely lack of gear, since while they have 4 valor epics and 346 in the other slots, they clearly need 2 more months of farming to get the last valor piece. Without pre-raid BiS gear they obviously have no chance at a raid boss, no one can blame their "skillz" or their (lack of) enchants and gems.

However sooner or later they will have full valor gear and at that point they cannot "gain strength" so they will lose interest. If Blizzard would nerf raid bosses, it would make them busy for a couple of weeks until they get new shinies but when they farmed the "lootship 4.0" and hit the unnerfed bosses, they leave anyway. They can't nerf all bosses since it would mean that the raiders complete everything and leave.

The genius of 353 is that it give the "casuals" what they want: "gear progression" (like the term would have any meaning), while keeping them undergeared! This way they keep playing to gear up (on 10 alts), they are motivated by the raid epics and they are not frustrated by not killing Magmaw. After all until they have 353 in every slot + valor to every available, they clearly lack the gear to kill him, so no point even trying. "dakrgnomkillaz lf more peeps for all kinda fun and help membrs gear up we gonna start raiding soon".

With 353 Blizzard turned the gear-fetish of the M&S against them. They recognized that the M&S can be kept content and busy as long as there is a carrot hung front of them. They stop playing if they can't believe in reaching the carrot or if they reached it.

Being the writer of the Greedy Goblin provides some security against obvious moron intrusion. But sometimes "some" is not enough:
By the way he first tried to buy me out. My fallback is 45G, his is 100. The crafting price is around 15G. The letter tells that the buyout action did not go well.

Also, the PuG hall of shame is updated!

This picture reminded me of the Morons of the Day series. Not many moron pictures are displayed nowadays because you don't send enough! Stop slacking, send me the specimens!


Andru said...

The problem of Moron of the Day is that there's only so much creativity in moronness.

No one is interesting is seeing yet another page of coarse thread sold for 10 gold each.

Anonymous said...

Funny thing is that Grobbie acctualy went to the Wrath og the Alliance.

Anonymous said...

at first I also thought it was a mistake, mostly because it does not grant the "Cataclysmically Epic" achievement to non-raiders, and achievements are srsbsns (did I misspell that correctly?)

but your reasoning makes sense, never mind that Paragon et al. killed the bosses those people wipe on in quest greens, it clearly is that they are only lacking gear, and without full 359 they clearly still lack gear, and that's why they fail on normal modes.

Anonymous said...

Possibly something you need to emphasise is that 353 gear is considered "epic" level too. It's not just half a tier above 346, its purple.

Looking at something like crafted pvp gear, which is 339 and then heroic/jp gear which is 346, a half tier increment doesn't usually require a change in rarity/gear value.

But making 353 "epic" gear is where the real genius is. Sure, it's going to take them a while to get those 353 epics, but then they will be in full "purples" and therefore more "awesome" than those in a mix of 346, valor and raid boss loots, because "I am all in epics and you are not lol."

Jumina said...

I would like to see the actual data Blizzard uses to make such decision. (not that I think they will ever show them).
I wonder which group is more profitable. M&S who are easily bored but there is more of them. Or raiders who tend to play and pay for a long time. And often pay for the game even after they stopped raiding.
But it looks like they are trying to make money from both of them.

Ephemeron said...

"ppl who play 4 fun" never-ever fail. They simply don't have gear. The reason why they can't do Magmaw is definitely lack of gear, since while they have 4 valor epics and 346 in the other slots, they clearly need 2 more months of farming to get the last valor piece. Without pre-raid BiS gear they obviously have no chance at a raid boss, no one can blame their "skillz" or their (lack of) enchants and gems.
After all until they have 353 in every slot + valor to every available, they clearly lack the gear to kill him, so no point even trying. "dakrgnomkillaz lf more peeps for all kinda fun and help membrs gear up we gonna start raiding soon".

As we know over half of lvl85 members of The PuG have never killed Magmaw, despite having every opportunity to do so. Clearly, one does not need to be named "dakrgnomkillaz" in order to be a leeching M&S and enjoy guild perks and an illusion of social status ("Our guild killed Cho'gall last week! We R SO awesome!") without lifting a finger.

But hey, maybe one day they'll kill Magmaw too. Or even Cho'gall. Right after they finish farming ilvl353 epics for all of their now-allowed alts, of course...

Anonymous said...

Do you really thing "Blizzard makes billions, not mistakes" is that valid any more? Wouldn't any employee with ambition have gotten themselves transferred to Titan and not still stuck on WoW?

Activision-Blizzard Inc's stock market valuation declined by a billion US$ one night recently, so no all employees seem to be superstars.

I will be interested if/when we read upgraded subscriber numbers. I'm assuming there have been non-trivial subscriber declines in countries with monthly subscriptions.

Anonymous said...


There are many people in The Pug. MOST are not socials.

There are many PvP's that are simply not interested in raiding. There are goblins from other servers that just log in every now and then to have some fun with people that, you know, aren't mouth-breathing morons. There are even "true" casuals that actually don't have the time/ don't want to give the time (the slacker goes to the one that doesn't want to give the effort but demands even opportunity. The one that doesn't give the effort, knows it and thus accepts lesser opportunities is a casuals, not an M&S)

etc etc

so yeah, I am sure there are 1-2 lolkids, but it is definatelly not the majority (or even a big minority)

Grim said...

Their stock has been stable for 2 years. Minor hikes (Cata release) and drops (dropping back to pre-Cata level) doesn't really mean much in the long run.

The last drop that they never came back from is from their all time high of summer 2008. a 40% drop over the end of 2008. down to where they are now.

I looked up the data on

Squishalot said...

@ Anonymous - You merely serve to prove Ephemeron's point. Not everyone is interested / has time to raid. From a lore perspective, Zul-Aman and Zul-Gurub are more interesting than, say, Throne of the Four Winds.

@ Gevlon: The new heroics are harder than current heroics, and thus deserve better loot. However, they are easier than raids, and thus deserve lesser loot than raids. Hence, ilvl353. Is it designed for non-raiders to gear up? Of course. You might as well argue what the point of releasing Firelands is.

An enhanced end-game heroic is new progression for non-raiders. Think of the 3 ICC 5-man dungeons. No new gear tiers, but more lore and more progression for those who are unable to raid for any reason. That's reason enough to create new content.

Riptor said...

In wotlk we used to call the epics from the 5 man ICC Dunegons "Welfare-Epics".

But hey, they are shiny AND, most importantly, they are purple...

Me said...

Making it a bit lower ilvl caters to 2 groups, the "m&s" and the gear score lovers. Those a bit more casual get higher lvl gear and the others can retain their epeen?

Bristal said...

Please. 353 is much more about raiders and elites than your reviled M&S.

It gives a tier of gear that players like me can begin to work toward (i.e. give me a reason to play) without players like you complaining about the same gear being given away too easily a la Wrath.

You still have your hard-won raid gear, and I have something to do in-game besides chasing achievements.

Right now WoW is getting dull for me. I don't have the time or energy to devote to endgame raiding. The fact that the gear is purple certainly may appeal to younger players.

It's interesting that Blizzard seems to be trying to be sensitive to issues you have complained about, but yet you still interpret it as an M&S conspiracy.

Ephemeron said...


"There are many PvP's that are simply not interested in raiding. There are goblins from other servers that just log in every now and then to have some fun with people that, you know, aren't mouth-breathing morons. There are even "true" casuals that actually don't have the time/ don't want to give the time

etc etc"

Oh? So, basically, they are people who just happen to act exactly like leeches and M&S, but for entirely different reasons?

Sorry, but this explanation doesn't hold water. As Gevlon pointed out on more than one occasion, reasons and excuses don't matter; only actions do. Therefore, if someone is a member of a raiding guild and yet actively refuses to participate in raids (while enjoying the benefits of guild perks and social status), he or she should be judged by the same standards as any other person who engages in the same behavior, regardless of the motives.

Hisgreatness said...

The guy with the glyphs is right though. Sure you hooked him up for a nice batch of glyphs, but as a goblin you should know as well that time is money.

Have fun milling, crafting inks, crafting glyphs for 27,8g per one.
Also if he knows your schedule on which you can play he just buys it out relists it for his priec and still makes the same profit you do for a tiny fraction of your time as well ( buying them is the only extra effort he does for his daily routine ).

Ive personally made 1 million gold from glyphs alone since jessica changed ink ( and I was prepared for it ), with glyphs going to 200-300g lately and still selling as they would normally. Im not saying you havent,but with 28g profit margin per glyph, I doubt you made 1 million since then and he probably made more than you as well, so who is the moron of the day in the end ?

Anonymous said...


The requirements for getting into the PuG are very low. Therefore, you gain minimal social status for being a member.

Also, it's hard to take advantage of guild perks without giving something back (usually guild xp, and/or looted money). Additionally, as more guilds level up, and 4.1 makes guild leveling even easier, most all guild perks will become "baseline."

Eaten by a Grue said...

Gevlon, the Internet is full of crazy conspiracy websites - this does not need to be another one of them.

Blizzard doesn't want people to stop running raids for the 359 gear, so they cannot hand out 359 gear in 5-mans.

They also want to provide some progress for people who want to do the new, harder 5-mans they are releasing. So the gear is middle road solution.

I do not know why you have to make a complicated conspiracy theory out of it, where Blizzard has somehow adopted the same "M&S" mentality as you.

Inno said...

You have to wonder how many people really want to be end game raiders. Many of the comments that I read describing m&s fit perfectly with a group of players that I personally know. These players try their best and have a good time.  I walk them through what they're doing and explain to them that they're not ready to raid and I've even put my own raiding on hold this expansion to monitor them. It's hard sometimes to explain to my children that just because dad is raiding doesn't mean they should. Most of the descriptions of m&s also fit into another group. Think 8-11 years old. This is the group at my house that is tanking those instances for the people complaining about heroics. Normals and heroics are right in line with my children's skill level. Raiding is a bit demanding with the "required" research that goes along it. Each new instance that offers new gear for them does help them perform better and might even make them a bit happier.  I can live with that as long as they can live with a vocal minority complaining about m&s in raids. I really don't see how raiding and m&s can continue to be a point you keep bringing up. By your constant recruiting and your blog you have built a guild populated by like minded people that should be able to ignore the m&s and let you feel that you've accomplished something. I wonder at times what your true experiment is. 

Caramael said...

I wish I had numbers, but I'm confident there is a huge amount of WoW players who do not care about raiding and only spend time with the 5-player content.
So I think you're blowing this out of proportions. It's new 5-player content, including a new level of gear progression. And it's 353 as to not piss off the raiding folks. That's all.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps Blizzard is trying something different by making the new 5 man dungeons drop 353 gear. Many people have posted about wanting a 5 man dungeon progression path. By having the new dungeons drop 353 gear it implies that the new dungeon will be harder but not a full tier harder (if that makes sense). Thus giving players who enjoy 5 man's an endgame apart from raiding or pvp.

Anonymous said...


When the next raiding tier comes out at (something like) 372 normal and 385 heroic, there will be a couple new 5-mans that drop 366. Valor will move from 359 to 372, and honor from 346 to 359.

Andru said...


Funny how you managed to quote one of Gevlon's posts, but completely ignored the post where he describes exactly what M&S are.

Because just not raiding is *not* a sufficient (or even necessary for that matter) condition to be a M&S.

The PuG tries to be an a-social raiding community, in which one, if wants to raid, they can without even so much as a social hitch or constraint.

That does not imply that every single person inside must raid. Sure, they're objectively worse raiders for not even trying, but there's a world of difference between being objectively worse, and being a M&S. If I enjoy driving around in my car without breaking speed limits, that does not make me a M&S because Schumacher won 7 GPs in a row, and we both drive cars. That line of argumentation is surrealisticly stupid.

Ephemeron said...


Fact: There are many players both inside and outside of The PuG who have the opportunity to raid, yet choose not to do so.

Explanation A ("Cynical"): This behavior is caused primarily by reasons outlined in Gevlon's "353" post (buying into gear myth, refusing to be accountable for mistakes, etc). If this explanation is true, then The PuG is a prime feeding ground for M&S.

Explanation B ("Optimistic"): This behavior is caused primarily by reasons stated in the comments to "353" post (having a preference for PvP, genuine lack of interest in raids, etc.). If this explanation is true, then Gevlon's post above is a nonsensical diatribe against strawman foes that are a minority at best, and exist solely in his imagination at worst.

Explanation C ("Magical"): The cause of this behavior is determined by the player's guild tag. If a PuGGer does it, he is a rational human being who has a life and knows how to balance priorities. If a non-PuGGer does it, he is a stupid, superstitionist M&S who bought into the "gear > skill" myth. If this explanation is true, then all we need to do is use patch 4.1's new guild renaming feature to rename every guild in existence to "The PuG", and all of WoW's problems will be magically fixed.

Being an old wicked dreadlord, I lean towards explanation A, myself. However, I'm also willing to accept explanation B as true; it wouldn't be the first of Gevlon's rants against the phantoms of his mind. Explanation C, however, strikes me as a pinnacle of hypocrisy and double standards.

Chasey Protection Paladin said...

Maybe the wanted to fill slots that were missed when Cata was release. Maybe they wanted to give us something to do while 4.2 came out. Maybe they wanted to allow mid level players a way to gear faster w/out the rep/JP grind.

Tens are so much more common now, instead of bringing in a keyboard smasher, let a trusted guild member fill in some neglected slots and join the raid.
You mentioned Paragon, I'm going to say probably not everyone that plays the game is that skilled.

I was always curious as to why someone would spend so much time playing a game, writing about it and hating on it so bad at the same time.

Andru said...

How about Explanation D:

All of the above.

Not all people are rational. Some of them may be irrational. Some of the PuGs members might even be M&S. However, if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it still make a sound?

If a person is a M&S and harms no one but himself, does anyone care? Should we care? If yes, why? If no, fine, let's discuss the atomic mass of beryllium instead!

Again. You are taking Procustes' bed and trying to fit people into people-shaped category boxes.

Thirdly, you have absolutely no proof to back your claim that they're a minority. Same as Gevlon, who has no proof that claims that all non raiders are M&S, a fact I've previously expressed my discontent in his previous posts. (I've since began to skip all of the analyses that claim that all people below a certain raiding treshold are M&S as a theory that may be true but I won't subscribe to it due to insufficient evidence.)

Now then, moderation seems to be dead. It's either one shade of black or a shade of green, or red, or whatever, but no one took the time to examine stuff on a scale and drop the whole 'if you're not with me, then you're against me' line of argumentation.

I find some truth in Gevlon's conspirational theory rant, mainly because it sounds true at least for a part of the population. How many is a matter of contention and only Blizzard knows.

I know this might sound like some kind of ego stroking that comes from a certain superior mindset of me>them, but I'll be damned if my feeling isn't reinforced from reading the damned R&D forums every day.

I'll return to the beggining of my post. The PuG tries to simulate an raiding scene in which you have the opportunity to raid while unburdened from social ties, and harmful M&S.

Because, let me tell you, by Gevlon's definition, I am a moron. That's right, I love achievement points and I chase them because they're fun. I have absolutely full confidence that I would be able to join the PuG without infecting anyone with my moronicness.

The degree to which one is a M&S is a red herring. Shouldn't we just be asking ourself to which extent one is harmful?

Anonymous said...

The person who puts the glyphs on at 100g-200g is right because by the time everyone posts the price will get alot less.there is no point at starting at such a low fallback.
on another realm i make
5000g-7000g but my fallback is 250g