Greedy Goblin

Thursday, March 3, 2011

The smell of the M&S

The PuG update: Here we stand again proudly at the feet of a dead boss!
Oh wait, who is the boss? Is there a secret 14th boss hidden in BWD? No, the new boss is called "a pair of draconid drudge", aka "Magmaw trash".

OK. Congrats ... I guess on killing the third easiest boss's trash. Why do you post a killshot? Because, due to the no-attendance rule we had just one tank online. Magmaw can be one-tanked, but his trash? Wowpedia says "Linked pull should be picked up with two tanks and positioned on opposite walls of the room. The rest of the raid should create a triangle just off the path between the two tanks. They will occasionally (every 25-30 seconds) swap tanks charging and cleaving along their path, stunning the tank on impact." While one tank can hold 2 (meleeing 50K each) but they will charge out, killing a DD or healer, and cleaving the rest of them. 2 tanks needed, period.

This event allowed us to figure out something original, unwritten. The positioning: Ranged -- Tank ------ Sheep, linearly. Who is the sheep? We sacrificed one DD on every charge, who ran back. So we had 1 tank, 4 healer, 3 DD, 1 alive sheep, 1 dead sheep. Of course every DD was sheep one after the other.

To reward our unique bosskill, epic loot dropped.

I hope this "bosskill" tells a lot about our approach to handle the problems generated by the no-attendance rule. If you are looking for such guild where you can raid when you want (granted, sometimes in weird setups) and not when not, join! Just don't miss the rules before whispering.


I was about to create a moron screenshot, but I started to get a feeling that I was the moron. In short: a guy asked a question about the guild. He had terrible grammar (u, m8, i, plox), and asked something that is clearly in the rules. I referred him to the rules but he kept asking a short answer. I called him a "lazy idiot" which made him disappear. Real M&S either "fight back" by screenshot-worthy replies like "fukk u nolifer lulz", or keep on begging. This guy just disappeared. I armoried him and found him to be in one of the 2/12 guilds with 2/12 + BH achievements but fully gemmed, enchanted, 346+ items.

I realized that I scared off a prospective member. He was probably a good player who had enough of his "i cba 2 gem i play 4 lulz" guildmates and wanted to trade up. But why did he wrote in M&S dialect and why did he not read the damn rules where the answer for his question was?

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

It can be a dove who was born among ducks, raised by ducks, lived with ducks but feels inside that he is something more and wants out. He tried to reach out for a better place but was ridiculed and rejected because he was identified a duck.

We find it obvious that we can talk like a decent human being without "lol", "m8" and "i". We find it obvious that we read materials. We find it obvious that if we approach an officer of a guild where we want to join and he tells us something, we consider his advice. It's not hard to do it. Actually it comes naturally. I have to slow down and think to be able to write something like "i cba 2 red 4 a game lulz". I check wowhead before asking a person.

I naturally consider everyone who acts differently M&S. But actually it only holds if he made a choice to live like this, knowing about the alternatives. But what about someone who grew up in this sub-culture and find it natural, even if he feels he could do better? Can I actually blame him for acting like M&S especially when he shows signs that he wants out?

On the other hand I surely cannot blame a mosquito for being a mosquito. It is absolutely unable to understand that spreading bacteria and causing people itching red bumps is inappropriate. It is also absolutely unable to change its behavior. Yet it don't stop me from killing it without any bad feelings. Shall I suffer an M&S just because he was never given a conscious choice to be something else?

I don't have an answer. I'm lost here. What would be the proper action? Answering his hand-holding questions? Then on what basis do I ignore the morons who spam trade with "where iz the dk trainer plox?" or "how can i get to undercity?" or "can som1 plz help me with rign of blaad qs"? If I make a totally subjective distinction between "real M&S" and "unlucky people who look like M&S" don't I do exactly the same mistake that helpful socials do?

So what shall I answer if someone asks me "when do ur guld raids plz"?

65 comments:

Azzur said...

If someone asked me to read the rules REPEATEDLY, I would just read the rules. He was obviously a decent player, but not too bright.

Squishalot said...

I'm not sure what this guy did to you, but I could have (and did) tell you long ago - not all people you decree as M&S choose to be that way - they're just byproducts of the environment that they're brought up in.

I'm glad you finally realise that. But unfortunately, I don't have any 'one size fits all' solutions for you.

In the case of this applicant, however, I would have started off by telling him that one of the main guild rules was to use proper English. If he could do that, or at least make an effort, I would help him further. If he couldn't do that, I'd know that I'd be wasting my time.

Essentially, I'd use a couple of gatekeeper tests - similar to you asking "how do we distribute loot?" when someone applies and claims to have read the rules, I'd give them a task to follow, and see if they could. If they can follow a simple task, they're probably capable of following the rest.

Anonymous said...

Honestly, I think if he raids competently then why not invite him. The M&S get weeded out quickly (going to a raid and being told about there errors quickly make them /gquit). I think the new approach should be simple, just say, "If you would like to join the PUG than you need to speak like an educated adult and read the rules." If they continue to speak with lulz and emoticons than go ahead and insult, I think the current problem is that you are too quick to judge weather they are M&S or not.

Maybe just giving them one of the many rules will allow them to prove themselves to you as intelligent humans.

Or not.

Anonymous said...

Honestly, I think if he raids competently then why not invite him. The M&S get weeded out quickly (going to a raid and being told about there errors quickly make them /gquit). I think the new approach should be simple, just say, "If you would like to join the PUG than you need to speak like an educated adult and read the rules." If they continue to speak with lulz and emoticons than go ahead and insult, I think the current problem is that you are too quick to judge weather they are M&S or not.

Maybe just giving them one of the many rules will allow them to prove themselves to you as intelligent humans.

Or not.

Anonymous said...

I don't think it's too much to say something like "this guild doesn't allow lolspeak like m8". Anything beyond that indicating deficiency I wouldn't even bother with. The reason that I would include this warning is that the lolspeak is so pervasive throughout WoW that it alone isn't a guaranteed indicator of moron. A reminder should immediately allow a true ugly duckling to show himself to be a swan (or in your case, dove?) as he should be able to instantly speak up like an adult.

Lupius said...

Same feeling I get when random people ask me info about my guild and I refer them to the guild site/forum, only to be followed up with "wuts teh adress?"

If they lack basic googling skills, I'm not sure I want them in my guild anyway.

Anonymous said...

Don't worry about that guy, if he realy wants in, he'll read "da roolz" At least he's not slacking off in the gear-department, but then again he's in a guild that probably helped him get it. He could still be a leeching M&S.

Foo said...

My views as a 'friendly / helpfull / social' player.

You have a written guild requirement that new players read your rules.

You also have an unwritten requirement that members act with a degree of professionalism.

With those being your rules, referring your potential recruit to your recruitment page is approprite.

Calling him a lazy idiot is unprofessional. You might think it, but saying so serves no purpose other than to boost your own ego by putting him down. You are directly causing harm.

An appropriate response to a direct question, very quick and easy is 'We raid most nights, no attendance requirement. Our guild rules at yyy.com/somepage cover this and more.

If he asks about loot rules; A simple GDKP. Guild rules at ....

Answering 2-3 times in this manner is not unreasonable, and empahsises your point that you expect him to read your rules.

A final answer of 'Please read our guild rules before asking me any more questions.' also fits the professional rule. After which /ignore is suitable, where an insult is not. If he subsequently reads then whispers a guildy for an invite, he will get the /ginvite.

For your personality, answering 'How do I get to undercity?' with 'www.wowpedia.org/Undercity' is helpful for both his immediate question, and your 'no hand holding' philosophy. (proper question, real words). He may simply be new, and turn to wowpedia for future advice.

Unless you are in need of a party for ring of blood, ignore the 'can som1 plz help me with rign of blaad qs' (you don't need it; you don't boost; no spelling). They are no worse off for you ignoring them, just like hundreds of other players (including me) have already ignored him.

nightgerbil said...

Why didnt you just tell him to go read the blog, then come back to you with any thing he didnt understand and you would go through it with him? If he didnt then go read the blog hes a moron and your right to keep him away from the rest of us.

Anonymous said...

"give a man a fish, and you have fed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you have fed him for life."

If you would have answered his question directly, instead of directing him where to find the answers he's looking for, then he would continually ask questions in gchat rather than look it up himself. The player would have most likely been a useful asset to the guild, but I doubt it was a place he truly wanted to be if he left it alone that easily.

If the M&S truly wanted out so badly, they would listen to what you requested. The "leetspeak" is acceptable until they read the rules, ignorance is not, even for the M&S.

The Doctor said...

Chances are, the prospective person that you denied found out about the PuG through WoW Progress and simply wanted to upgrade from a 2/12 guild to a 9/12 guild. He or she probably had no idea the values of the PuG, nor would have enjoyed them.

Personally, I treat interviews with Guild Leaders with the same professionalism that I treat interviews with potential employers. Yes, WoW is a game, but that does not mean all traces of civility and coherency can be thrown out the window. Typing like an intelligent person should be common sense when trying to join a new guild. Until you learn the standards of a guild, it should be assumed "lolz" and "gz" and "u r kewl" are not appropriate. Anybody at 85 who cannot figure this out is an M&S.

Yaggle said...

Maybe you should(if you haven't) make a macro to reply with the web address that has your rules. Because I am guessing that typing this sort of thing out(in-game), when the person is asking in noobspeak, would get to be annoying and it's easier to say "You are a lazy idiot". But if they know your rules(including noob speak) and know where to find them, then you can at least hope that they thought about the conversation as much as you did, and concluded that they should go look at your rules. Then maybe they would ask to join again. I don't see how you could do more than that. It sounds like you did your best to be fair but were in a very difficult no-win scenario on how to respond properly.

Fifth said...

I think the simplest thing would be to make a small change in the /trade macro so they know you don't want lolspeak. If they really want out they will read it and respond with proper English.

thenoisyrogue said...

What you're discovering is that everything is not simply black or white. People are made up of shades of grey. They might lean towards one extreme or the other but there is still a grey area to be found. If we take this example as a corporate hiring situation, this person would not have ticked all the boxes and thus would have been eliminated at the beginning. But sometimes it pays to look at things from a different angle, as you did with checking out his armory. And then you may find that the situation is not as clear cut as you originally thought.

So now you have a decision to make. Is the potential reward from taking this person on worth the current risk? The risk is that they will simply turn out to be your common M&S, but the consequence of this is simply that he is asked to leave the guild. But the potential reward could well be that you have found a strong and dedicated member that will help you meet your objectives and goals. And perhaps all that they require to excel is some simple direction from you.

This is what leadership and team building are all about. You will never get your team handed to your on a plate. And sometimes identifying a potential member requires not just effort, but skill and patience.

chewy said...

Squish points out that he doesn't have a "one size fits all solution" and he's absolutely right, there isn't a one size fits all solution.

Because you've structured the guild on black and white, binary, rules of conduct and so forth it will only work for such cases.

What you appear to have realised is that there are shades of grey. Your choice is simple, either accept that your binary criteria will not invite the grey, potentially worthwhile members, or use a less binary criteria and accept that you will invite M&S occasionally.

Ask them to wait while you check the armoury, take a chance if the armoury suggests they have the potential to not be M&S.

Decisions can always be reversed later.

Kring said...

If he doesn't read the rules (even after being told so), he won't read tactics either (even after being told so). He might be a nice and good player but he's not what you're looking for with your guild.

Grim said...

???

Why are you surprised about this event? I thought that you are fully aware that many people who look like M&S are actually not and you just made the conscious choice to live without them.

It has been talked about many times how someone named Arthasdklol might as well be a good player, but you won't accept him just because 90% of Arthasdklols are retards.

This case is no different. Either change the policy or live with it.

Uranax said...

What I think you do wrong is the insults. Even if "arthasloldk" himself whispers for an invite I try to be as polite as possible. If they get insulted they will seek revenge. Revenge for them is trolling in /trade about how bod "The PuG" is. While we obviously don't care about it, socials do, and we might lose the working social recruits from the 2/12 guilds.

RaduKing said...

So what shall I answer if someone asks me "when do ur guld raids plz"?

I would answer: Log out, get an education, then come back and talk to me when you have one.

Anonymous said...

How do you respond?

You cannot assume that every person who applies to your guild is fully matured.

You cannot estimate the possibility of self improvement in his behaviour on the spot. While he acts dumb now, he might change it, given the right advices. He might as well not, or only painfully slow. You will never know until trying it out. You would take the role of a teacher here, or maybe the one of a clever merchant who invests some time to make his goods more valuable, if you want.

Weigh up personal investment vs the chance of making a person a better one. Some might be lost causes, but the majority just needs some work.

In the end, the response can only be dependant on the amount of work you wish to do in order to educate him. Parents and teachers have good motivations to do this all day long, i dont know if you want that.

Camo said...

I think Grim is right, it's all about "Unworthy until proven worthy".
You told him to read the rules and he didn't, you are not the one that has to check if a potential new member is worthy, they have to show it.
The requirements are laughable, all you request is to read the rules and then to ask an inviter in proper English.
Maybe he was just a sheep that was instructed to gem and enchant if not he still has a second chance.

Mightyduck said...

Remember you're a goblin.

You made really good rules to identify a moron from a mile of a distance. If this player broke the first two (read the guild rules and not noob speaking), then who cares what ilevel does it have?
If this player was really a dove among ducks, when you tell him/her that the first rule to join your guild was TO READ THE RULES, he/she would read the bloody rules. Maybe it was a pretty duck, but a duck at last. And you, as a goblin, you EAT THOSE DAMNED DUCKS!


PS: Are you having this doubts because of the guild atendance problem?

Anonymous said...

Calling him a lazy idiot is unprofessional. You might think it, but saying so serves no purpose other than to boost your own ego by putting him down. You are directly causing harm.

An appropriate response to a direct question, very quick and easy is 'We raid most nights, no attendance requirement. Our guild rules at yyy.com/somepage cover this and more.

If he asks about loot rules; A simple GDKP. Guild rules at ....

chewy said...

So now you have a decision to make. Is the potential reward from taking this person on worth the current risk? The risk is that they will simply turn out to be your common M&S, but the consequence of this is simply that he is asked to leave the guild. But the potential reward could well be that you have found a strong and dedicated member that will help you meet your objectives and goals. And perhaps all that they require to excel is some simple direction from you.

This is what leadership and team building are all about. You will never get your team handed to your on a plate. And sometimes identifying a potential member requires not just effort, but skill and patience.

healer24 said...

What you're discovering is that everything is not simply black or white. People are made up of shades of grey. They might lean towards one extreme or the other but there is still a grey area to be found. If we take this example as a corporate hiring situation, this person would not have ticked all the boxes and thus would have been eliminated at the beginning. But sometimes it pays to look at things from a different angle, as you did with checking out his armory. And then you may find that the situation is not as clear cut as you originally thought.

Hirvox said...

My preferred approach is to give half an answer. For example, I can tell where the answer/solution is, but not what it is. And if someone asks about where something is, instead of giving them the exact coordinates, I mention a landmark. If they're M&S, my answer is useless to them. If they're not.. I just taught them how to fish.

xenxu said...

Gevlon, you did the right thing. We don't try and rehabilitate and change the mosquito: we eliminate them.

If this player carried M&S genes, whether by choice or not, the M&S genes need to be eliminated from society.

Anonymous said...

dont be rude... just say him that this kind of language isnt allowed and he should read the rules. years of lolspeak arent going away if you dont say something to them. why should anyone read the rules? the first thing i do when i am looking for a new guild is ask a guildmember for infos... some link is not the same as someone to talk to.

Anonymous said...

why dont you just ask them if they can speak normal?

Squishalot said...

@Mightyduck

The problem here is precisely that those rules don't really identify morons. Morons identify themselves. I think that Gevlon's problem is more of the ethic type, since he realized that persons can behave differently from their skill or potential. Someone can be a master craftsman without being a smart person. My grandfather knew everything about crops but never learned how to read. I know proper enchants and gems and a little bit about everything but i would fail at agriculture. Knowing the rules is not enough. The rules, as with all tests, fail many times and only good sense can truly filter whatever we want to filter.

Anonymous said...

If they know your rules(including noob speak) and know where to find them, then you can at least hope that they thought about the conversation as much as you did, and concluded that they should go look at your rules.

Anonymous said...

Gevlon, your decision to reject that player was right. If you'd broken your own rules and invited him, you'd be faced with other decision immediately: to kick him from the guild for kidspeaking in guild chat or to break another guild rule. You see, it's a slippery slope: you break a single rule one time, only to endanger other rules. And then you'll start to wonder if Rofldots was a professional but misunderstood player.

Or maybe you're so desperate (seeing from your spectacular trash tactics) for new blood in the guild that you are willing to tolerate lulz and f-words in guild chat?

Anonymous said...

Unless you are in need of a party for ring of blood, ignore the 'can som1 plz help me with rign of blaad qs' (you don't need it; you don't boost; no spelling). They are no worse off for you ignoring them, just like hundreds of other players (including me) have already ignored him.

Iris said...

I think for some people, leet speak/text abbreviations is a habit, not an inherent part of their personality. My guild has a pretty strict interviewing process to make sure people will 'fit'. Sometimes people who are being interviewed will use leet speak or smileys, at which point the interviewer points out we don't tolerate that in our guild chat. At that point most people stop using that language.

I've been in my guild nearly 4 years and obviously really like it there, but before joining this guild I was a prolific 'lol' user (as in pretty much using it in every sentence, sometimes twice). I'm glad the person who interviewed me told me not to use 'lol', that I adhered to that rule and was accepted into the guild. If they had assumed that because I was a 'lol user' I was also a person they didn't want in the guild that would've been a real shame (and probably not a guild I'd want to be in).

I think in terms of your example though, asking someone to read the rules is a good way of 'weeding out' the undesirables. Reading rules takes a minute of someone's time, but will tell you whether they are seriously interested in joining. It's kind of like asking someone who comes for a job interview to tell you something about the company. If they really want the job they'll have done some research.

Larísa said...

Xenxu wrote: "If this player carried M&S genes, whether by choice or not, the M&S genes need to be eliminated from society."

This gives me creeps. It really does. Sometimes we shake our heads in disbelief at the holocost, at the terror during Stalin's reign or at the collective insanity in Rwanda some years ago. We can't understand: "how did this happen?" "How were they thinking?"

Reading comments like that I'm not surprised. It's a mindset that is more common than we want to know.

Gevlon - reflection and reconsideration of your own beliefs is never a bad thing. Even if manmy of your followers probably would prefer you to remain firm or even fantatic. I guess you could call them a little bit sheepish?

Anonymous said...

I think I've mentioned this in an earlier comment, but I always thought it pointless to insult M&S. I don't think you really mind it being impolite, but you don't gain anything on it either. (I'm assuming you don't derive pleasure from telling faceless people on the internet you don't like them.) At worst you turn away potentially good people who'd have shaped up had you asked them to, or end up giving your guild a terrible reputation (which is bad if you want to recruit new players), and at best you make a stupid person sad.

Aljabra said...

Wait, wait, you mean, no one like this ever got to you before this time? They did found me out several times, and I'm not even an inviter.
In fact, I don't see any problem with this one. No matter, how he was brought up by ants or something, he still is a human, capable of reading and writing, and (probably) equipped with a brain. He can understand a basic request, he can understand, that his question was indeed answered with the "please, read the rules, it's all there" with a link, and it's only his personal choice to react to that in a way he see appropriate. And his choice was to ask you to carry him, if even a little, an action, that irritates you so much, you banned voice communications on guild events to prevent this type of activity. So he probably not an idiot (which is arguable, smart person tend to read the rules when asked politely), but he is, indeed, lazy and want others to carry him, making him a perfect specimen for a second part of M&S - a slacker. And that choice is the one he made, not his environment. If he want out, it would take him some effort to do, not you. You can only show him a way, and that you did.

Ðesolate said...

"So what shall I answer if someone asks me "when do ur guld raids plz"?"

I personally prefer answering: "please change to a decent english and read up our information site at: URL. Please only reply after solving theese issues, to avoid beeing ignored." I had to translate the standart-reply to bad grammar / lazy questions of our recruiting officers.

If he keeps up asking questions that are answered in the rules I usually tell them that it is a pity that they are not even able to read something up.

Some people do not fit in the usual sheme. You can't tell if he bought the account at ebay three days ago from a decent player. Possibilitys are infinite.

Lethyria said...

None is above the set rules, you can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs.

Campitor said...

Create a macro that states "If you want to join the guild please read the rules at ihatem&s.com. I don't discuss guild rules or raid times online".

Just spam the macro if he continues to persist with questions. If he doesn't go read the rules you just saved yourself from another headache.

Healer24 said...

My only thought is that you might be a little less insulting when responding to these guys. If you tell him repeatedly that he needs to read the rules and the answers are in there, then he should do that. If you insult him repeatedly (as I've seen you do in other screenshots) all you do is drive him away. Ultimately I don't think you can tell the difference right off the bat between someone who can learn and someone who can't or won't. That still doesn't mean you should let them in if they obviously haven't read the rules.

P.S. Not sure who that other healer24 is in the comments, but this is a different guy. Odd, as it's not exactly the most common name/number combo.

Daniel Silva said...

I think there is no remedy to this, short of letting potentially saveable M&S in for a trial period. But I would expect that a dove who was raised by ducks will always swim rather than fly, becaue that is what feels natural and right in their reality (perspective). I don't think there is hope. And I wonder if there should be, lest we consider being productive citizens with religious zeal.

Anonymous said...

To play a bit of Devil's advocate: When searching for a guild, something that's really important to me is the raiding schedule. It doesn't matter to me if the guild is an otherwise great fit if raids run too late or on bad nights for me, etc. So my first instinct, before even thinking of bothering with a website, would be to find out the schedule. I also anticipate that if someone drops a recruiting macro in trade, they aren't so busy they can't find time to chat for a couple about their guild.

On internet garbage speak: it's persasive, mostly annoying and I applaud you for calling it out and not tolerating it in your guild. However it's out there and you should be tolerant of non-M&S players who use it - until they read the rules.

energybomb said...

3 years ago, I spoke with lolspeak.
What changed? Simple enough: I understood it was retarded. I had really NO idea it was retarded but then, I entered a forum were they expected proper English.

Then again, this same forum bans users daily for lolspeak. I never got banned.

You should have told him about the no lolspeak rule. Actually, I would go like that:

"Thank you for you interest. This guild requires PROPER English. This means that no "u" "lol" etc are allowed. Additionally, no emotes are allowed in the guild chat. All these are outlined in the guild rules "

If he asks more questions, answer 1-2 more in the same manner, all linking to the rule page. If he doesn't get the memo by then, he is an M&S, gems or not.

ps: something I wanted to write about a week now. You seem to confuse "has" with "have" in some cases. Has is used only for he/she/it (has). Have is used for all other cases.

Healer24 said...

One more thing.

I think you're posting this and your only concern is the lack of raiders for progressions. Am I right? Had you lots and lots of attendees and you wouldn't care if he's a duck or a goose living among ducks.

Or maybe this is one of your experiments and tomorrow you'll post something about dealing with M&S with skill.

Anonymous said...

When searching for a guild, something that's really important to me is the raiding schedule. It doesn't matter to me if the guild is an otherwise great fit if raids run too late or on bad nights for me, etc. So my first instinct, before even thinking of bothering with a website, would be to find out the schedule. I also anticipate that if someone drops a recruiting macro in trade, they aren't so busy they can't find time to chat for a couple about their guild.

Alrenous said...

Overall, you should probably just message him back and ask him about it. "Why do you want to join?" "Why do you refuse to read the rules?" He'll either say something impressive or immediately put his foot in his mouth.


You can't invite him anyway, because you'd have to make an exception to the chat rules.

I was thinking that if you're feeling particularly asocial today, you could seek him out, apologize, invite him and just check directly whether he's M&S with hot gear or not, and use the info to refine your selection process.

But he's not willing to read the rules. He'd use his 1337speak in chat. (/g hay m8s, thx for inv) So you'd have to kick him almost immediately.

Conclusion; he almost has to be M or S. He's almost certainly incapable of following the rules.


Even if he was willing and able to learn, starting from where he is, you'd have to hand-hold him a great deal to get where he'd be useful to the guild. In all likelihood.


You could drop the 'idiot' and just call him 'lazy.' You don't actually have evidence for idiocy, only laziness. Do so and there's a chance he might actually show a flash of determination and try again. At present, he obviously doesn't want it that bad if he's so easy to scare off.

Yagamoth said...

I remember this type of comment-conversation from quiet some time ago. It's basically the question about the Guilty/Innocent prisoners. Should you free 100 people because two of them are innocent and you can't determine which?

Here it would be: Should you give every possible person who uses 'lolspeak' another chance despite that there is only a very small possibility, that it might not be an M&S?

I'm interested in your answer to this

Doing so would mean, you are doing something social - you click the standardized reply-macro in such cases. One more click per person at max.

I highly doubt that it would be too much effort to create and press the macro. So why would you not? Because it's something social you would do, helping a misguided human with the high chance of not gaining anything? But it could also benefit you

Xense said...

Rules are rules. There's almost always a "special case" that the rule can't deal with justly, but you have to ask yourself if you're a guild of "men" (social!); a guild of laws; or if you're a dictatorship that can change the rules at a whim.

Since people get tired of the dictator (which would lead to a failed guild) and you've firmly espoused not being social, then you have to follow the rules.

However, you can still change your approach to be less insulting and slightly more tolerant for at least the first 2 sentences. After that if a potential recruit doesn't read the rules then they are a Slacker and don't deserve an invite.

Dzonatan said...

You did nothing wrong Gevlon.

Dont you find it ironic that he is gemmed/enchanted corectly yet talks incorectly? Well I do.

How come someone can set up a character that requires goggling, reading and a bit of math to push out some potential out of his/her character but cant properly communicate?

I call switched priorities on this one.

format said...

I think it is enough to say read the rules and maybe answer a few questions they may have. You should open the dialect with a prospective member like you would the best player in the world.

Maybe his english reading skills aren't up to par so he missed something in the rules. It shouldn't be too much to type out a few answers to his questions.

By judging him so quickly you became what you hate. You made broad generalizations about his character when you had little basis to do so.

It isn't difficult to /gkick him later if he keeps up with the bad behaviour.

Mightyduck said...

@Squishalot

Your point with your grandfather' story is that playskill is not correlated with understanding skills?

For example:

- I have an apple
- You want to eat it, and you tell me "Give me your apple please"
- I tell you "Only if you pay me X money"
- You don't or not want to understand that I'm giving it a monetary valeur, so you tell me "Give me your apple please, I've been polite, you have to give it to me!!!"

You wanted something. There were rules to get it. You didn't or wanted to understand it, so I'm gonna smash my apple at your moron face.

In this case, it's the same. Guild's rules, in its ultimate base, are always arbitrary (in some cases, they're for maximizing people performance, others for a good social ambience, others are completely taken from Shitdicksland), and if you can't or wont get that, you fail. It doesn't matter what is this player's ilevel or playskill (demostrated by achievements), if he/she can't get that "read the rules" actually means "READ THE RULES", what do you think this person is going to do in a raid session?

Gevlon, don't hesitate: it's much, much better to get only two or three raid nights in your guild per week with normal playskill people than having 6 nights full of craptastic failures.

Lighstagazi said...

This actually relates to the comments in Adam's lastest blog post, in my opinion. Specifically, dunwich's comment, which I'll quote in part here to show what I'm talking about:

"people should learn to use the internet and not to buy things wich only cost you minutes. 2$ are not much… but thats not the point."

Rules are tools to make decisions easier, not to make decisions for you. To me, this seems to be one of the defining characteristics of an M&S; rules are followed without being challenged. In the quote, he sees challenge, accepts it as valid criticism, and then flat out rejects it based on an abstract preconception that he's right.

That you saw challenge to your rules, and then decided to actually question them suggests that you aren't M&S. The second you stop asking if the rule makes sense is when you become M&S. But you have to actually question it.

Of course, not everything can be questioned all the time, we simply don't have the mental capacity for everything in this world. So at times, some will appear to be M&S when they aren't because you disagree with whether something should be challenged.

Squishalot said...

Another Squishalot poster? Really?

Be aware, for anyone who thinks that they're replying to me.

Anonymous said...

I would be more likely to forgive the bad 'leet' speak (on the first tell) but not forgive the inability to follow your simple reply to read the rules.

For the first point, he doesn't know the rules yet and may be 're-educated' to learn proper speaking - since it may be a product of his poor 'duck' upbringing.

But the second point shows that he is not really 'ready' to move out of the duck lifestyle since he refuses to learn when given the opportunity by his dove brethern.

That is how I would distingish it.

Anonymous said...

When I apply for a job, I speak and write proper English, mind my spelling and grammar, etc. because I want to make a professional impression. I know that's what's expected, so I make communication decisions which I expect to be pleasant to the listener. In WoW, lolspeak is so common that it's reasonable to assume most people will be OK with it. He may have been talking in a manner he (wrongly) expected you would hear in a positive way.

Personally, I don't use lolspeak and the extreme examples are annoying. I've sometimes said things like "I really can't understand you when you mumble like that" or "Please take the marbles out of your mouth". People who can write always give it more effort after that.

chewy said...

Gevlon - There's a pattern of inappropriately used colons amongst many of the anonymous and some self named respondents. I suspect you're being trolled.

(Just an observation for your own information, no need to publish it doesn't add anything to the debate)

Squishalot said...

Just to address a point that I don't think anyone has raised yet.

In relation to the mosquito analogy, you mention that a mosquito isn't able to be anything but a mosquito. That, to some extent, goes back to the crux of the issue - can you reform a duck? If you can teach him to act like a dove, like he is, then it's a cost-benefit analysis to determine how much effort you should put into it.

If you assume that he can't change, then slap him like a mosquito. But then, as your self-reflection has noted, it's a poor assumption to make.

Olga said...

@chewy

Different languages have different punctutation rules. So russians for example have common mistakes with english punctuation, basicly just using their native language rules. Same may be true for colons.

Orcstar said...

And here I was trying to find a way of asking you to reconsider your "rule" about naming conventions.

I played in a "good" guild (top 1000 25 top 500 10 men, but that was way back in Lich King).

We didn't care about names, just perfomance and whether people could take criticism. Actually, if you go through the list of the worldwide top-guilds, you see quite a lot of members with unacceptible names to "the guild".

Seriousness and results are what counts. To a pro-raider the name of the character doesn't really matter because it's a tool. A tool to beat the challenges the game presents. And why would you care how a tool is called, a hammer works even it's called a roflnailslammer2000.

Back to your issue about the guy might or might not be an M&S. I've had to do with people who were terrible really really terrible at English. And if they've been in a lolspeak sitaution too long that's what they pick up.

The Dutch are notorious for speaking very very rude English because we didn't dub our movies but subtitled everything. And that's where a lot of people pick up their speak.

Oh by the way, my name as a tank translated to "mistercow" I don't think I would get into the pug with that name. But on my server it became synonymous with the best geared/played tank on the server. Nobody cared about the name.

Chewed said...

Good point Olga. It's not something I'd considered (or even knew about to be honest) but it is a good explanation.

It just seemed an odd pattern which I'd never seen before and Squish commented that he was being imitated.

Kristopher said...

I would have been more polite, but if someone is too mentally broken to be able to read instructions ...

Well, it is not your job to correct his illiteracy or his mental problem.

You gave him two simple tasks to perform to enter the guild: Read the rules and follow them. Unless you intend to set up a reform school for M&S players, I suggest going no further.

William said...

Saying lol isn't a sign of immaturity at all. It's so common among people who grew up during the internet age that it's pretty standard text vocabulary for teens/young adults nowadays. Other short forms like u, ur is pretty common internet vocab too. Leet speak (e.g. pwnz0rs) is just annoying though.

Using capitalization/full grammar when you're typing in a game or in instant messaging just makes you look like a pretentious jerk. Constantly misspelling words, e.g. more than once a sentence does make you look kind of dumb though.

Anonymous said...

I was a blathering M&S until I found this blog. I ran around with 200 gold and begged for direction. I used lolspeak and went un-enchanted.

My point is that people can change when the error of their ways is pointed out. Even an uneducated, apparent M&S.

Sthenno said...

Here's a simple formula: Instead of "Did you read the rules?" say, "Anyone can join our guild provided they read and follow our rules. You can find them on our website."

The *next* time they whisper you say "Did you read the rules?" and then proceed to mock all you want if it is clear they have not.