Greedy Goblin

Wednesday, October 6, 2010

New players my ass!

About a month ago I was in one of my last random dungeons (I'm not running them anymore as I don't need badges). The tank had less HP than myself. At the start of the dungeon he told that he is new and offered that if we'd wipe because of it, he'll leave to let us get a better tank.

A rogue, with more 277 than 264 told him something like "np put vigi on the mage and lets go". The tank asked back "vigi?", but instead of "lol n00b" he got the answer "vigilance, 10% more aggro to you, but put it on the lock im arcane with -40%". Vigilance on the lock and off we went.

The rogue used ToT often and vanished many times. It wasn't hard to keep the tank up (the dungeons were designed for his gear), it was a bit harder to keep up the rogue and the mage because the tank's AoE threat was awful and the mage AoE-d with flamestrike+blizz (no -40%). Finally I told the mage to AoE with AE and stay in melee so I could simply spam CH. After a near-wipe pull (dead mage, rogue vanished at 10%) the rogue checked recount while I was ressing and recognized that the warrior is rage-starving himself with heroic strike, so he can't use thunder clap. He was told to forget HS on trash, use TC and cleave. And he did and the aggro problems almost disappeared! On bosses there was no problem as the initial ToT + HS held the aggro.

You know who was the only one abusive with the new tank? The warlock who got kicked before the last boss for doing equal damage to the "n00b tank lol".

I'm playing this game for four years and not once I've seen a genuine newbie who asked for information being bashed by anyone but "veterans" who sucked terribly themselves. Everyone, including myself is very helpful toward newbies who ask for help. We were all newbies once and we remember it. We need good players so we help them improve.

Then where is the hate that Tobold just wrote about? Why there are blogs and forums full of "hate" towards "new players"? You might figured it out, here comes the M&S. They are the "newbies" who are "bullied". Their misery start with the first response. The normal conversation is something like that:
Newbie: I'm new to the game/this role, so please be a bit understanding. I'm grateful for any tips.
Veteran: You shall change this or that talent, get this or that gem/enchant and X item is very bad for you. And use ability Y more.
Newbie: Thank you, will do the changes after this run and using Y more.

The conversation with the M&S is something like that:
M&S: [silence]
Veteran: You shall change this or that talent, get this or that gem/enchant and X item is very bad for you
  • stfu u prick i play as i wanna
  • lol its justa game chill
  • i cant do that i have life u now, not every1 is a nolife like u
  • i just need better gear lol
  • [ragequit]
  • [silence]
  • Why do you have to be mean? It's a game that should be fun. You are killing my fun. [continues doing the wrong way or leaves the group]
  • /ignore
  • ok willdo [and continues doing the wrong way]
The responsibility for negativity in the "community" is 99% on the M&S (1% truly annoying elitists, you know the kind who hovers above the landing post on whatever colored drake). The help, the understanding, the support that the leftist cry for is right there. Even in me. We want the new players to be better as we need more players. It's the M&S who don't accept help, don't show any kind of humility and insult us simply because we are not failures like them. They choose to be bad and choose to remain bad. They could stop being bad any time they want to. Help is just a "I'm new, please give some hints" away. And maybe a namechange away if they are called "icritudie" or "legolassdk".

Peter found this guy who must be a new player with rich real life. His problem has nothing to do with WoW mechanics, but it never stopped the "freindly heplfull ppl" to find excuses for M&S:


spinksville said...

I agree in general, but I have also seen vet players who did amazing dps be really horrible to new players in groups.

I think you're right that part of the definition of a good player is going to involve not acting like an illiterate tosser, regardless of how well you play your class.

Dboy said...

I love the content of your post, Gevlon, but I don't understand the moron/social post at the bottom. Unless I've missed something, the character 'Keiral' gave 'Peter' 5 Cardinal Rubies. 'Peter' made two of them into Bolds, which was his mistake, and then gave 'Keiral' the three Runeds that he asked for.

From what I can see, not only is Peter the 'moron' in this situation (as he made the wrong gem), but he is, as 'Keiral' claims, a ninja.

People rely on these kinds of good faith transactions all the time in this game, and 'Peter' is simply being dishonest and immoral. I have been reading your blog for some time, and I have never seen you advocate that we advertise a service and then steal the other person's materials.

Townes said...

I love the conversation about the cardinal rubies. It reminds me of my ex-wife, who thought I was cheating her out of something by keeping the reimbursement checks from my flexible spending account. She didn't ever understand that I paid the money up front and got what I paid reimbursed - that it all came out even. Maybe she is now buying gems in WoW.

I agree that many people offer helpful advice to newbies, but think you may overgeneralize with the "always" and "never". I have seen the helpful advice given and gratefully accepted, I've been the one giving it, the one accepting it, and I've seen namecalling when the level-20 tank hasn't trained RF but sincerely wants to learn about it, or namecalling and quitting without giving any advice to a newbie who could use it - and who wound up asking for help later.

It's a big WoW world. I agree with your main point, but I think there is a lot of variation in how people behave - including good players sometimes being rude to new players who sincerely want to learn their class.

Azzur said...

I'm a bit confused by the screenshot. Keiral gave Peter 2 Cardinals and paid for the last Runed outright? And then Keiral wanted his 2 gems back??

nonameform said...

That's one great "moron of the day". Reminds me of one guy I met who refused to put stuff into trade window before I entered the amount of gold that I was going to trade him as he told me that he was scammed by someone and lost his goods.

As for genuine newbies, I've met one or two of those in 5-man dungeons. I remember a run in UP heroic with a druid tank who had 24k hp or so in bear form with buffs. A rogue we had in group who had a mix of ToC/ICC gear said something like "lol my warrior tank is ICC geared and can hold aggro better than you". After the rogue died once or twice, he and some other DPS started some long whine about how shit the tank is and the guy actually felt like he was doing it wrong, so I had to tell him in whispers that he shouldn't pay attention to such scum (neither rogue, nor hunter used ToTT or MD).

Most of the time I meet M&S though. Last one I recall was a DK tank who left after starting LK escape event in HoR HC. I complained about his almost non-existent threat generation and he said "fine. then i won't tank at all" and stand there for several seconds and died himself. Needles to say, we got replacement in a couple of minutes and finished the place just fine with some undergeared tank.

Actually HoR HC seems to be the hardest dungeon for M&S. About 3 or 4 times I was there with people who actually said "sorry, it's my first time in this dungeon and I don't know what to do", so me and some other DPS did use CC on mobs (yep, CC) to let tank familiarize himself with the dungeon. I never wiped in such a run and I doubt anyone even died.

Gevlon said...

@Dboy: he asked for 3 (as he tells). He gave 2 uncut and paid for 1. He got 3 cut gems. He started demanding the 2 bold since those were made from his uncuts.

Dboy said...

Ah right, that makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up!

Nate said...

"he asked for 3 (as he tells). He gave 2 uncut and paid for 1. He got 3 cut gems. He started demanding the 2 bold since those were made from his uncuts."

That makes it clear, but I wonder whether this is just something that Peter said? Or is it that Peter didn't say anything and you just assume the above?

Seriously, a great deal of the moron stories you post are not clear cut at all. Your predisposition is playing tricks with you, and I bet that in a fair amount of cases you - or your submitters - see something that just isn't there.

Larísa said...

I've seen a bit of both to be honest. I've met decent veteran players who've offered newbies a pice of advice, which they've taken to their heart. Happy end, like the situation you described. But I've also seen out-of-the-blue hatred and abuse, people who enjoy bashing at others because they're probably complete losers in real life and want to take it out on someone in game, no matter if it's reasonble or not. The guy who happens to come in their way doesn't deserve it, he's just unlucky. What I'm trying to say is that it isn't one way or the other. It's not like EVERYONE is a hater, but it's not like it doesn't exist either.

What people like Tobold, Klep and me are trying to do is not to excuse or encourage sloppy, lazy players who answer in a rude way when they're offerend advice. I think we'd rather like to see more of the friendly (yes, I use that word, ha!) environmment that you describe from the pug you participated in. I don't know if it will help very much. How much impact can you really expect a blog to have on the game and the community? Not very much I'd dare say.

Anonymous said...

I remember funny discussion on trade channel when someone was selling boots for healer with Tuskarr's Vitality enchant. Immediately someone started to write that the enchant is wrong, lol etc. When the guy stated the healer don't need such enchant I wrote to the channel. "Yes, If you don't move in the raid you don't need it".

Anyway in my experience real "veterans" always give good advice if asked politely. And they don't /flex with their drakes.

Grim said...

He made the first 2 gems by mistake and then says "crap, i'll get other gems, sec"

That's when he gets new gems (presumably from AH) to replace the wrong order. The moron never gave/paid for 5 gems as far as i can tell from the log.

Breevok said...

Gevlon, for once you speak complete sense. Although Spink is right that you can be a vet player and still be an idiot - but being able to play your toon doesnt exclude you from being a M&S.

Experiencing the new role of tanking recently has lead to a new appreciation of decent human beings in the game - and finding the diamon amongst all the grime does revitalise the soul in those moments for darkness.

Nice post Gevlon, good to have you back

chewy said...

When I was raising my hunter alt I had an occasion whereby I was fishing and was called into an LFD group.Before I'd had time to re-equip my weapon I was called out as a "n00b with a fishing pole equipped".

What this demonstrated to me is that, as several other commentators have mentioned, there are those simply looking for an excuse to abuse people, safe in the knowledge that they are behind their screen out of harms way.

While I've advocated or supported education as a principle, I have to concede that education for these types is pointless. They want to vent a frustration that has nothing to do with the game.

It is pure chance that you will get someone asking for help combined with those willing to provide it, it could be just as likely that you'll get the askers combined with the mindless abusers taking advantage of the situation.

Nate said...


I agree the JC made a mistake with the first 2 gems. I don't see how you could say from the log that:

"The moron never gave/paid for 5 gems as far as i can tell from the log."

The log does not mention any payment terms at all. The two sides just allude to them and they might be alluding to different things.

Alternative explanation of the log: Keiral gave Peter 3 gems, asked for Runeds, Peter screwed up first 2 gems, took 2 of his own, made 3 Runeds, gave them to Keiral with Keiral paying for all 3 gems a full price as if he never gave 2 of his to Peter, then Keiral asks for his 2 gems back and Peter ninjas.

You think that sounds unlikely? Well, maybe, but "unlikely" is a bit weak if you want to call someone a moron.

Bobbins said...

You may help newbies but your posts encourage other players to be disrespectful of newbies and morons alike?

You cannot control your reader base but you do encourage negative behaviour whether it is justified or not!

Grim said...

After Peter made the mistake and said he'd go get more gems there is no talk of changing terms, so Keiral should have just paid the amount of gold previously agreed and the log gives no reason to think he paid anything more. The default assumption must be that they stick to the agreement.
And at first Keiral doesn't even really contest it.

Peter: You have your 3 gems so we're even.
Keiral: Yea

And then after that his jumbled brain kicked into 5th gear of moronicity and kept demanding gems despite agreeing that he got his due already.

If he was a sensible person who just suddenly remembered "Oh, shit! I paid for all 3 uncuts, not just 1!" he would have said that. If he just didn't think of that, he is a moron for not being able to come up with the obvious argument.

In before "log might not be complete":
Sure the log might be incomplete/shopped/whatever, but if we stop believing screenshots then the MotD becomes pointless.

Aljabra said...

" I think we'd rather like to see more of the friendly (yes, I use that word, ha!) environmment that you describe from the pug you participated in."
Well, if you really do, then you must hate M&S way more, than Gevlon ever capable of. It's not elitist jerks, that kill that friendly mood, it's morons and slackers. Most don't see anything bad in helping genuine new player, it don't take too much time and feels good. Most people derive a lot of good emotions from helping people, that ask for an advice and grateful for the one given.
On the other hand, people tend to get much more bad emotions in case they advice was laughed at, or got one of the responses Gevlon provided in this post. Only people with steel neural system with no emotions can take that kind of abuse many times without an explosion and lasting damage to trust in people in general. Therefore, potential helpers start to dislike helping, forming the opinion, that anyone, who visibly needs help, is some kind of M&S, that will bite the helping hand and spit poison in the wound. Of course, those, who politely ask for help, are different matter, and that's why they usually get more help, than they can expect, and often from the very same people, who just relentlessly bashed some moron.
So, there already are those friendly environment you want, but it is hidden under that huge pile of trash M&S produce.

Anonymous said...

What is very true is the M&S will simply take no advice.
This is extremely frustrating for me.

I am right now leveling a Healing Priest through dungeons. Currently level 35.
So each level I have to go to 3-4 Groups / Dungeons and meet random people.

What did I see?
a)Warlock warding and not responding to either /W or /g.

b) Tank having Aggro problems, and was willing to learn.

c) Hunter with pet taunt (surprisingly responding to turn it of quite often)

d) DPS that over Aggro

I can easily life with b) c) and d). but I really have problems with a).
Even if I understand their motivation "save mana" and therefore wanding. Taking no help from the groups is so against everything I stand for. They are clearly carried.

What is worse than that?

The group members rejecting my vote kick. This way they are carrying this slacker. I think this is what this blog is about.
Understanding: that it is in no way good to support this kind of behavior.

OK... said...

The person crafting - who crafted the wrong gems, clearly states he will get other gems.

How is there any room for misunderstanding?

He crafts the wrong thing, replaces the gems with others he didnt have when he began crafting (clearly not from the person being traded to).

Squishalot said...

Gevlon, there's a fair bit of difference between your portrayals of the newbie and the M&S. There's one thing that stands out:

The newbie asks for help.

And the corollary:

The M&S didn't ask for your opinion.

One set of advice is wanted, the other is unwanted. Why do you think one is listened to, and the other ignored? It seems pretty self-explanatory to me.

Gevlon said...

@Squishalot: if you see the difference between the two, and this difference is obviously his responsibility (he chooses not to listen) why are you arguing against labeling, excluding, rejecting, ridiculing the M&S?

Nate said...


What you are saying does not disprove my point.

Things could have gone either way, the scenario I outlined remains possible. As well as a million others. The log is just not clear enough.

I'd venture to say that most of these moron posts are like that, by design.

But, anyway, we can't really talk about this, as Gevlon is censoring posts and at least two of mine did not get through already. So, I guess we'll have to stop this discussion.

Nate said...


By the way, the log sure *is* incomplete. Sparatic has come online somewhere between "You create [Runed Cardinal Ruby]" and "[Keiral] whispers: :) Thx mate" yet the log doesn't show it.

Thus, it's not a question whether or not the log is incomplete, it *definitely* is incomplete.

Anonymous said...

It's pretty obvious what happened. Peter crafted wrong gems from Keiral’s stones but got replaced with gems from other stones bought by Peter on the AH. But, is Keiral just and idiotic M&S?

Since Wow doesn’t have a parameter for quality I guess it's more of a philosophical question. Let’s say I have been breeding my 3 pigs for a year, and I leave them to the slaughter. The service/agreement/contract is I leave my 3 pigs; you slaughter them, cut the meat and then return them to me. When I return I get told that 2 of them was mislabeled and they where ground to mince. But they have been replaced them with 2 others. Should I right-out accept this? They broke the contract.

Peter did just what the slaughterhouse did. He returned gems created with unknown raw material. Now, we don’t get to see the start of the conversation, but if the agreement was that Keiral would give “Peter” 3 of his stones, these should be cut and returned, then Peter broke their agreement i.e. their contract. Keiral is in the right. He should be compensated for Peter’s mistake.

Now, granted, with absolutely no difference in raw material this all get’s a bit silly, but a contract is binding.

Nate said...


It's simpler than that.

We only get to hear the story from one side, the log is incomplete, and even then what happened is not obvious and leaves room for interpretation.

Just in case, here is another possible scenario that could be in play and we don't know enough to rule it out:

After having given Peter 3 uncut gems and seeing 2 of them mistakenly turned into Bold, Keiral could have bought 2 more to substitute for the wrongly cut ones and have given them to Peter. If so, he would have effectively exchanged 3 uncut gems for 3 cut gems, presumably paying the amount of gold they agreed upon before, and his demand for the mis-cut gems would be legitimate.

Some people are simply too hasty to jump and call others morons. That's all.

Gevlon said...

@Moron-defenders: the moron gave Peter 3 gems. If he would give more, then Peter would be a scammer and a GM would intervene. Also, I've never seen a ninja making public statement about being ninja. There is one possible scenario: the moron provided 3 gems (2 as uncut, 1 as price), and received 3 cut. He demanded 2 more, simply because his gems were used for other purposes and received "alien" gems.

Nate said...

And the last thing I am going to write on this.

Consider the following remark:

"It's pretty obvious what happened. Peter crafted wrong gems from Keiral’s stones but got replaced with gems from other stones bought by Peter on the AH."

Why automatically assume that the stones to replace mis-cut ones have been bought by Peter and not Keiral? Stop reading for a minute and think about it, there is an answer. Ready? OK, go. Why? Right, because Peter said "crap, 'iil get other gems, sec" *and there is no reason not to believe him*. Keiral then says that Peter is a ninja, but you just *feel* that this can't be truth, Keiral is a moron and Peter is an upright man who sent the screenshots to Gevlon's blog. You can't say anything exactly, and, frankly, right now you are already muttering to yourself that this all is overblown and you don't care, but if you actually stop and think about it, you will realize that you have chosen to believe Peter and contempt Keiral because that image of what happened that you drew in your mind matches how you feel about WoW players in general - most morons, incapable, silly and demanding.

I have news for you. In soft matters like the behavior of people, the way you think about things *defines* them. WoW is full of morons *because* everybody assumes it is full of morons, with the definition of the word "moron" slightly drifting over time.

You want WoW to be a better place? Stop sending silly screenshots to Gevlon and start being positive.

Anonymous said...

I like the idiot quotes as much as anyone else but there is a point where you have to realize you're exclusively scoffing at children and writing insane free-market explanations of WoW to explain child's behavior.

and the three gem thing was dumb, the guy was just trying to get more out of you.

Nate said...

Hrrm, noticed this right after clicking Publish on my previous post. I will answer this and be done with it.


"the moron gave Peter 3 gems. If he would give more, then Peter would be a scammer and a GM would intervene."

Well, this assumes that Keiral knows that he could get his gems back by involving a GM and actually wants to do this (yes, yes, I hear you, he is a moron if he doesn't know or doesn't want... spare me, please).

"Also, I've never seen a ninja making public statement about being ninja."

As in, Peter wouldn't be so dumb, right? Yet you are perfectly willing to assume dumbness on the side of Keiral. That's some strange logic...

Anonymous said...

If there's one thing I hate more than players who don't learn from their mistakes, it's so-called "veterans" who have to /ins and nit-pick every single person they play with and teach them how to LOLDOITRITE

It is a game afterall, it's supposed to be fun - not a place where you get harassed constantly for not knowing any better.

This obsession with gearscore and playing your class as efficiently as possible is what's ruining WoW for people who just want to have fun and enjoy the game on their own.

Derrek said...

Refusing to take advice isn't always bad. I give you the following example:

Talent spec A is optimal. I have the talent spec B even though I know that A is optimal. I've chosen B because it is more fun for me than A. Can any raid leader force me to use A? In a PuG (A gives credibility) or an world elite or topnotch guild, yes. In a regular guild (which could also has high performance), no! Why no? Because as long as I do my contribution to the raid, which means doing more than DPS_required_todown_boss / number_of_dmg_dealers, more by a fair, safe margin I can use whatever spec I want. Extrapolating, if I am the number one on the damage meter, in a successful raid, with a 0/0/0 spec, due to my own aptitudes, there's no problem. In such case, 0/0/0 is simply and purely sufficient.

Giving advice when it isn't wanted is also bad. One day, I was playing my frost mage, got to 20% hp and 20% mana. As I Evocate and prepare to use a bandage, this total stranger whispers me: "get glyph of evocation" so I reply with "oh really?". A polite and complete response would've been: "Thanks for your suggestion, but I know very well how to play my class.", but M&S don't deserve such answers or any explanations, they're a waste of time.

Anonymous said...

Keiral in the log is not only moron. He reminds me the lying school children. The ones who try to use all of your small mistakes to their advantage. The ones who can be dangerous even to the teacher.

As for the example with the pigs. If company makes mistake they must compensate my losses. But to ask for more than my two lost pigs is blackmailing.

Soge said...

Gevlon, I have a suggestion for your blog. It seems that the MotD discussion is kinda "poisoning" the comments, with two totally different discussions taking place simultaneously.

You should instead create two posts every day, one shortly after the other, one for your blog, and one for the MotD. IT will also improve searching on the future, with all the morons together in the same category without interfering postings about other things.

Strutt said...

@Gev. You can show absolutely NO proof of that. Hence people saying the log in inconclusive. If the Log showed trades that were made then you can come to that conclusion Gev, but you are going by just what the person told you that submitted it.

Untill you can show scree ncaps of trades you cant say for sure. peroid.

Derrek said...

One more thing: if M&S ask (or pay) for explanation, then it might be given to them. I think this is (or should be) the true goblinish idea behind Gevlon's post.

Daniel said...

Yeah I think one of the biggest pet peeves for good players is to see players of their same class who don't know what they're doing (poor DKs). Whenever I see a shaman doing something wrong I'll usually correct him or her on it. And while I sometimes get "itza game lol" responses, mostly they change their ways. Although I was a tad bit peeved when I saw a shaman gemming spirit being taken to my old guild's 25 man raids. By that point you should know what you're doing. No exceptions.

nonameform said...

People seem to have problems reading the log. Even if some whispers are missing it's pretty obvious to me from these phrases:

Keiral: even though they failed
Keiral: my friends can use them maybe :)

that Peter didn't ninja the gems, since if he did Keiral would be already calling him a ninja by that point and not having a pointless discussion trying to explain that Runed Cardinal Rubies were made from some "other" uncut gems. By the way, "failed"? Like in "Man, I made Bold instead of Runed. I failed to cut those gems in something useful, so I'm gonna vendor/throw them away?"


Peter: you have your 3 gems, so we're even
Keiral: Yea

From this bit it's not hard to see that nothing was stolen, as Keiral agrees that he got what he wanted.

Don't know which realms people are playing, but I've never met a JC who makes other people not only pay for cutting, but also for gems to get them back. Peter provided a replacement [Peter: crap, 'ill get other gems, sec], but Keiral wasn't satisfied.

For those who still don't get the picture:
* Keiral gave 2 gems to Peter and asked for 3 Runed Cardinal Rubies
* Keiral bought another Cardinal Ruby from AH [presumably] and traded it to Peter
* Peter messed up and made 2 Bold Caridnal Rubies in the meantime
* Peter got 2 Cardinal Rubies from somewhere else (AH, bank)
* Peter cut 3 Runed Cardinal Rubies, traded them to Keiral and got his tip for work

From this point it's a fucking joke.

Anonymous said...

I thought the post was about all the elitist blogging, not in game. That is what makes less sense. WoW is the overwhelmingly mass-market game. People who voluntarily subscribe to it instead of a niche game and then are surprised when it is a mass market game are illogical. You don't get to become the most purchased movie, TV show, book or "restaurant" by being sophisticated and challenging; you get it by giving the customers what they want.

RaduKing said...

The moron-defenders don't realize that this is a classic case of moronic behavior where a moron can't see the forest for the trees.

Glyph, the Architect said...

"Peter did just what the slaughterhouse did. He returned gems created with unknown raw material. Now, we don’t get to see the start of the conversation, but if the agreement was that Keiral would give “Peter” 3 of his stones, these should be cut and returned, then Peter broke their agreement i.e. their contract. Keiral is in the right. He should be compensated for Peter’s mistake."

World of Warcraft doesn't work the same as it does IRL. All gems are exactly the same as the others in WoW. Even though this is technically what happened, there is no difference of quality between one ruby and another like there is between the pigs. Kieral asked for his three gems to be cut, and he received three cut gems. Contract fulfilled. If the guy had three rubies in his bags before the transaction, he could cut those instead (which would stack up and you wouldn't be able to tell which were Kieral's rubies anyways), not say anything about the switch and hand them over. this is because which rubies are cut is irrelevant as all rubies are the same.

So in the end, everything is even between the two. And the Kieral wants to be compensated for Rubies he "lost", even though he didn't lose them and they are in his possession cut. He is the moron here and anyone who says "Kieral should be compensated" is as well.

Sven said...

My experiences are much closer to Larisa's than yours, Gevlon. Whilst rude responses from underperformers offered advice do happen, it's far less common than abuse of newcomers. Many's the time I've seen someone doing 2.5K DPS in full T9 abusing the guy doing 2.1K in blues fir being a n00b.

Alrenous said...

"I have news for you. In soft matters like the behavior of people, the way you think about things *defines* them. WoW is full of morons *because* everybody assumes it is full of morons, with the definition of the word "moron" slightly drifting over time."

I always love running into postmodernist bullshit. You do know no-one actually espouses postmodernism anymore, right?

The way I think about the behaviour of people is that it's rigidly defined. Therefore, behaviour is rigidly defined *because* I think of it as rigidly defined.

Oh wait, isn't that a contradiction?

"You think that sounds unlikely? Well, maybe, but "unlikely" is a bit weak if you want to call someone a moron."

You obviously understand what the log is trying to portray. You also agree this would be a moron move. Everything else is just empty rhetoric.

It's true that it's not crystal clear. But it doesn't matter - Gevlon is simply illustrating the idiocy endemic in WoW. Do you really think that, if you could prove it didn't happen this time, it has never happened at all?

Certainly no court could convict Keiral just on the strength of the log. But it's perfectly reasonable for the rest of us to assume guilt because behaviour like that is everywhere. Because of the M&S, anyone who ISN'T has to go out of their way to prove it. Eg: Gevlon's guild rules. Keiral doesn't. Keiral's a moron or slacker just for that, even if for nothing else.

Lucid said...

I was the "moron defender" yesterday known as "First Anonymous". Just wanted to say that today's moron is much more of a classic moron. It is fairly clear what happened(even with the conspiracy theories from today's moron defenders).

The guy demanding "his" two gems back is clearly an idiot trying to profit from an honest mistake for which he was already properly compensated by being given the correct gems.

@conspiracy theorists:
stop trying to defend an example of an actual moron. This is the type of submission we should see; the moron didn't even require being drawn out, as he gladly showed himself.

Aljabra said...

"Many's the time I've seen someone doing 2.5K DPS in full T9 abusing the guy doing 2.1K in blues fir being a n00b."
Why do you think, that shining example of M&S, trying to hide his own abysmal performance, is something about experienced abusing newcomers? This trick is much older, that humankind itself, most social animals use it as well, so it's not a big surprise, that some humans do try to hide they own errors diverting public attention to someone else's.

Squishalot said...

@ Gevlon: "if you see the difference between the two, and this difference is obviously his responsibility (he chooses not to listen) why are you arguing against labeling, excluding, rejecting, ridiculing the M&S?"

Because it's not your place to label or ridicule the M&S. It's rude, it's immoral, and it ignores the fact that there is a real person on the other side of their screen being bullied by your childishness. Your 'goblin' role is to ignore, lest you stoop to their level.

If someone is doing subpar DPS and not accepting help, you boot them from your raid / not invite them next time if you're the raid leader. That's your place as a raid leader. But as just another raid member, you should either a) raise it to the raid leader for him to deal with; or b) ignore.

For the same reason that you don't run around Stormwind or Thunder Bluff, inspecting random people and tell them that their gearing / gemming / spec is wrong, and ridiculing them when they ignore you, there is no reason to call out an M&S who has not asked for your advice.

The other point to note is that you have no authority. What credentials or qualifications do you have? To them, you are just another trolling random with no social skills on the interwebs. Why should they listen to you?

Squishalot said...

Actually, it's also worth noting, your conclusion about the M&S being the 'newbies' is incorrect. The M&S are the 'veterans', who are bullying actual new players. Considering the high proportion of people you would deem M&S who are running random dungeons / heroics (compounded since you believe good players primarily do raiding), the majority of 5-man groups will be composed primarily of them.

Anonymous said...


That is hardly postmodernism, whoever wrote it is merely pointing out that perception is subjective and often selective. It is to a larger degree than expected determined by expectations, biases and "state of mind".

This is a prime example of a cognitive bias and is not dependent on postmodernism, but rather well founded in psychology. Quite a few "morons" are easily explained by such cognitive biases rather than real cognitive shortcomings. It's quite easy to be fooled by your own intuitions and type 1 reasoning.

Most, if not all of us, have at some point made an assumption that in hindsight was obviously wrong. For many it might even have taken a while to adjust to it and realize the mistake.

nije said...

The screenshot isn't exactly clear cut, but unless he was trying to doctor it for screenshot purposes (which is illogical, since gm's don't bother with screenshots as they can see in the log exactly who received what from whom), you can only assume the thing most of us did, because the crafter says that he's getting more gems (which would be pointless if he had recieved 5) and "you wanted 3 runed you got 3 runed". The customer never denies this, he just demand his original gems back even though nothing has changed (except for the crafter who at the end of the transaction had 2 plain cardinals changed into bold as a result of his mistake.

nije said...

I forgot to add that while it is possible that he did in fact ninja the mats and then send the "doctored" screenshot here, it's highly unlikely because of the nature of this blog. The people who would go to such lengths in matters like these are the number one (or 2 if you're kind enough to just call it social and not moronic) subject here, and not exactly in a positive way.

Gevlon said...

@Squishalot: "it ignores the fact that there is a real person on the other side" is a philosophical disagreement between us. I want to treat the RL M&S (welfare leeches, criminals...) the same way. I absolutely reject that anyone is entitled for anything but neutrality (do not harm) and even neutrality is only in effect if he is neutral too (if he robs my house, I'll shot him down).

However for technical issues: I do not run around in SW inspecting people. Every such are in my groups, therefore (implicitly) accepted to pull their weight in group activity. By not doing so, they expect me to boost them. I have every right to fight them off.

They should listen to someone who is objectively doing better (higher on the meters). By doing better one proved that he knows better, therefore has the authority of the expert.

Anonymous said...

the example of butchering 3 specific pigs with butcher messing up and returning different meat is absolutely ridiculous. Why? because all cardinal rubies in game are completely identical. they are not real life rubies that might have different inclusion, different origins, etc - they are exactly the same as every other cardinal ruby in a game.

As a jewelcrafter, I've made mistakes like that. Would accidentally select a wrong gem cut, notice it, then just take my own gems and cut them correctly, keeping mistakes to sell or use.

Even in real life, majority of the time if manufacturer for whatever reason makes a mistake, they purchase replacement materials and create a correct item, keeping mistakes for themselves. Except in real life, its rare that you will make profit off mistakes, usually you just eat the costs. You still don't refund materials and most companies will request that you return incorrect item.

Squishalot said...

Gevlon - philosophical difference indeed, so I won't get bogged down into it, since you and I obviously won't see eye to eye on it. It is, however, an example of how two reasonably rational, logical people can come to completely different, opposing results.

My point is that in a raid, if you're the raid leader, you're within your rights to boot them. If you're not, you should be leaving it to the raid leader to deal with, by notifying them privately about the subpar player, because you're joining the raid leader's group. The subpar isn't joining your group.

Regarding that a subpar player should listen to you just because you're doing more DPS than he is, consider the fact that a) the newbie was a tank (i.e. all DPS should be doing more than him), and b) you were healing (i.e. you weren't ranked relative to him). He still has no evidence to listen to you.