Greedy Goblin

Monday, September 27, 2010

Don't sell bag, sell the cloth!

I got this as a comment for my bag-selling post. It said "if you can make ebonweave for 1c but could sell it 23g, then the opportunity cost for your bag is 23g. I.e., if the bag is not profitable at 23g, just sell the cloth." This sound like a good advice against the infamous "I farmed for free" statement, however it's not.

The "I farmed for free" morons sell their items below costs, or convert them to another item at a loss, since they do not count with the AH value of the item, as they farmed it for free. I even wrote about the pro version, when someone buys materials below market price from a moron and instead of selling this item on the market, he craft something that costs less than its materials and claim it was profit.

Now I'm advocating doing exactly that. Weird. Let me explain:
  • You can buy/craft materials for 50G
  • Materials sell for 150G
  • Products sells for 100G
The highest profit move is selling the materials themselves. Buying materials to craft items is directly moronic. But what about crafting a product from your own materials? At first sight it's stupid, as you give up 50G opportunity cost, it's the prime case of the pro version of "I farmed for free". However what if the materials don't sell in infinite quantities, meaning you could craft more for 50G, you just can't sell more as only 1-2 materials sell every day. This case it's smart to sell the product too, as with every sale you get 50G profit. The opportunity cost appears when you choose between two options. If you can do both, there is no such cost.

How can such awkward situation exist? Because of morons. There are morons who sell products and not competing with me on the materials market. They surely possessed the materials and choose not to sell it. If they would compete with me, the material price would go between it's creation cost and the product cost.

In WoW there can be a case when making the product gives skillups, so people mass-produce it despite the loss. However it does not explain why someone still not sell materials, as the material production cost is below material market price.
---------------------------

A quite moronic guild application, found by Victor. We seen several, and they are always amusing. But to get here, one needs to do something more. Like creating an official forum thread about not being accepted to a topguild unenchanted. Please note that he tells that he can raid every day on the application and then claims that the reason for his terrible spec/enchants is having a life. Update: another thread by the same moron. Worth reading as it tells a lot about "freindly heplfull social gulds"

46 comments:

Samus said...

I love how much more time this guy spends complaining about his rejected application than it would have taken to do some basic research and fix his character.

Zazkadin said...

While it is completely justifiable that this guy's application was rejected, I think the EJ-like responses from the guild weren't necessary.

You can reject applicants politely and without humiliating them, even if they did little to deserve it.

You don't have to be a jerk to be elitist.

Aljabra said...

@Zazkadin
"I think the EJ-like responses from the guild weren't necessary."

On the contrary, I see, that people from the guild was way too polite to the shining example of M&S they've got. They actually made an effort to show that specimen what's wrong with his/her character and even gave a few pointers on improving that sad cat. They spent more time researching that character, then was needed from its owner to learn how to improve (or, more accurate, not to damage) it in a first place. Considering that it was obviously not newbie mistakes, but intentional ignorance, that was nowhere near "elitist jerk response". They were as polite, as humanly possible, when talking to a person, that is proven to be less than intelligent.

Nikola Begedin said...

@Zazkadin: Sorry, I don't buy it. She was the one being a jerk first, they simply replied.

Pointing out what enchants you are missing is not being a jerk, it's simply being a good guild leader/officer. If someone cant handle that, he shouldn't ask to join.

ardoRic said...

"I think the EJ-like responses from the guild weren't necessary."

Why not? They serve to educate him on why he was rejected so he can look up how to improve. He was the one to take it as an affront to his game-style and chose not to investigate how to better himself instead coming up with that silly "i haz lief" comeback.

I think the answers are exactly what they should be.

Anonymous said...

Oh good grace. That guy is beyond idiocy. He has gone to the next step. Soon he will transform to ultra-M&S /ends manga references.

As for the post itself. It gave me some thought. Although, I have to point out that retards don't have a steady market. He can, one day, go farm eternal fire and the next day eternal earth. So keeping the materials and seeing when the price will rise and then re-sell them CAN be profitable.

Anonymous said...

I also personally consider the responses the guild gave were a bit inapproriate, but really they are allowed to run their guild in any way they choose and if I had run into that application I probably would have been tempted to say a few well chosen words also. However my answer would probably have been something along the lines "Unfortunately your character does not currently meet the standards we expect from all succesful applicants and we cannot offer you a trial position at this time. You are always welcome to apply again at a later date if you feel you have improved your character to match our requirements (please refer to the guild application guidelines)."

In a guild leadership position you just never know when being an ass is going to bite you in the back.

Bobbins said...

Key to making money in your tailoring examples, more so than than bag cooldown is the tailoring specialisations. Producing twice the cloth for the same material cost is how you make the money. What you do with it afterwards is just realising the profit.

Also be aware of the 'risk' of holding the high level cloth and bags. As well as the reducing demand for the items.

Zazkadin said...

@Aljabra and Nikola:

I agree that the first response from the recruitment officer (?) was indeed very good. He took the effort to analyze this player's gear and talents and more than just saying "no" he also gave accurate feedback on what was wrong, so that the applicant actually learned something. And yes, the applicant's response to this could be said not to be very mature.

But if you are a guild with something of a reputation, I think it is possible to leave it at that. No need to kick the applicant while he was down already. The argument "but he started it" is as childish as it sounds. Someone has to be the maturer person and a good recruitment officer can be.

As one of the anonymouses said: sure it is the guild's choice on how they run their guild and maybe they have such a status that they can get away with it, but insulting applicants - even if they are hopeless - might scare away a lot of potential other good applicants. The insults also serve no purpose, other than the entertainment of the others.

In our guild it has been ruled a long time ago already that only the recruitment officer handles the feedback to the applicants, exactly to prevent flame wars like this one.

Markco said...

Understanding the equilibrium between snowfall inks and glyphs a year ago apparently was and still is beyond your grasp gevlon. I spoke with both jmtc's "Zamboni" and wow.com's "Gold Capped" for quite some time about this strategy to check its validity and premise before actually putting it to use with great success on my server.

That being said... the concept of the true value of an item based on the materials involved is a real and powerful concept that players should be aware of. If I'm to bear the brunt of jokes in order for them to learn it then I don't mind at all :) Besides, they can then browse Just My Two Copper or the JMTC forums and find everything they need for making gold.

Daniel said...

@Zazkadin. No, it won't scare away potential good applicants, because the reason they insulted this guy was because he was bad. If you are fully gemmed and enchanted, know about your class, and are smart enough not to put "UB3R DPS LOL" in an app to a raiding guild, then you will either be accepted or told that they are not looking for that spec at this time. If you're good at this game, you wont be insulted by any good players, just by lol'ing M&S.

Anonymous said...

@Daniel. I consider myself to be at least a decent player. I am not as skilled as the very top players, but I can and have performed all roles well enough to let my guilds defeat boss encounters in a timely manner after their release. I have previously raided in guilds who were close enough to the top to be considered good guilds for anybody looking for serious progression. I always bring my consumables, research the most current theorycrafting about how I should be playing my class and in general am I helpful and willing to do what ever it may take to get my guild there. I have also been involved in recruiting and can tell a good application from a bad in a heartbear.

And yet I would be hesistant to apply to a guild where the members openly joke about bad applicants in public forums. One of the things I am looking for in a guild is maturity. It just is not very mature to mock people in this kind of context, no matter how "M & S" they may be. I am almost certain that my application would never under normal circumstances be insulted simply because I know how to do it right. The answer might be negative, but in pretty much all guilds serious applications tend to get serious answers. So would I be a bad applicant? Your call.

Anonymous said...

I don't get how people defend the "moron of the day". The application thread looked like that in short:

M&S: I play every day, my connection is great, I bring uber dps lol!
No I don't have vent, I have only 2 addons one of them being recount, and I have annoying siblings who distract me, but don't take those as too serious signs of anything.
Officer: You lack enchants on X, Y, Z, pieces, your meta is useless for your spec, your X, Y, Z gems are bad, and you have no professions.

(Now if the guy was not a M&S, he would go and find out why his gems / enchants are bad and change them, instead he does...)

M&S reply: "Wow, you're such a nerd to know which gems should a spec need, and why are you such an ass to me???"

At this point officers go /point /lol at him, because:
1. Calling someone a nerd for what your class needs means he doesn't value knowledge, he just came to get a pat for his 10AP honour bought gem while he could buy a cardinal ruby for the same honour just 3 slots below...
2. When someone points out mistakes you don't go "cry, cry, you're such an ass".

Of course then the M&S goes to the forums and shows again how he believes "knowing class hit cap, expertise, which stats you need" makes you an utter no-life nerd.

P.S. The reason the guild asked why he has no single t10 piece is because if you're a knowledgeable dps, for like 90% of specs 4piece bonus > GS upgrade, for the last 10% it's the 2p bonus that delivers.

People on the forums who replied "why don't they see maybe you could bought a cloak instead for your first badges", are purely uninformed, if any dps buys his cloak or belt before t10 pieces means he values his GS more than dps, or has no knowledge how tier bonuses influence dps, simple as. Therefore he lacks knowledge to be in a progress-oriented raiding guild.

But hey, the M&S not only lacks knowledge and realizes he does, what makes him a M&S is he's PROUD of that lack of knowledge.

It's not about lack of time, that he rather spends whole evenings in game than 1 hour reading up on his class, it's about the childish refusal to learn "learning is for school and I hate school, I refuse to learn, that makes me cool".

Anonymous said...

first the riveting tale of a retarded cat druid, followed by marko trying to start something?

is it troll christmas? who do I send the thank-you card to?

also, a minor nitpick: Gevlon, your OP seems to lack something of a conclusion.

Wilson said...

Worth reading as it tells a lot about "freindly heplfull social gulds"

It tells us that .... they also gkick whiny immature dicks?

Cyrell said...

Your moron of the day post was particularly entertaining because arguably the guy picked the hardest class/spec to DPS with in a raid. Sure, feral's great and lazy for leveling, but at level 80 it's like learning to play a whole new class. Many people who want to DPS as a feral druid end up giving up and going moonkin precisely because it's so hard to keep a good bleed rotation up on a boss that guarantees your damage isn't lower than the tank's.

These are things he should have noticed and caused him to be frustrated. I'm sure he did, because he hinted in his WoW forum post when he cried about "HCs being boring". What that really means is he was kicked from 90% of the HCs he did because he had about 1k DPS. That should have propelled him to either respec moonkin or find out what he was doing wrong as a cat, but no, typical welfare victim mentality, he blames the system and the players.

I truly despise people like this.

At least he's only 17 and I have hopes.

Derrek said...

@Cyrell

While you're right that feral is relatively one of the hardest spec to raid with, given the proper addons, macros and keybindings, the task becomes quite simple. Unfortunately, this takes learning, researching and the willingness to actually use the capabilities of the mind; this is exactly what M&S hate doing.

Tonus said...

@Zazkadin: "I think the EJ-like responses from the guild weren't necessary."

The guild in question appears to be working towards completing all ICC content, both normal and heroic, both 10 and 25 man. So they probably have a pretty high standard for recruiting and little patience for someone who applies when they are so ill-prepared.

In any case, the first reply to the OP was pretty straightforward and helpful even though it was clear that this was someone who was wasting their time (intentionally or not). When the OP responded by calling this person an ass, it's no surprise that the responses got rude after that.

Daniel said...

@Anon directly after my post. No, of course you would not be a bad applicant, as I said, if your app is good, and you're not accepted, the guild is most likely not looking for that spec at the time, or the position has already been filled. No one will insult you if that is the case

Anonymous said...

"The opportunity cost appears when you choose between two options. If you can do both, there is no such cost."

WoW, the auction house, and your blog have real world value. I am very impressed. I wonder how many real-world entrepreneurs got their initial inspiration from the economic lessons of WoW.

-Aeignus (80 AffLock), Cenarius

Aljabra said...

@Zazkadin
"I think it is possible to leave it at that. No need to kick the applicant while he was down already."
And why not? It's not some pointless action "just for lulz", it's usefull message to anyone with the same mental state as this M&S, in a language such people understand best.

"but insulting applicants - even if they are hopeless - might scare away a lot of potential other good applicants. "
But do they need applicant, that can be scared by such things? For it to really matter you need to be sure, that many, preferably most, of such potential applicants are any good, which I highly doubt.
On the other hand, it will naturally scare away many bad applicant of the same kind as this moron. One such conversation on a visible place, and moron will hit /enrage before even making his own application, and will go bother someone else (like throw a tantrum on official forums). Pure profit.

Squishalot said...

@ Aljabra: "But do they need applicant, that can be scared by such things?"

Apologies that this response is so late, you might not end up reading it.

It does matter, because a good applicant will look at such posts and realise that said elitist guild is overly social. Consider the logic:

1) An asocial guild would not insult or degrade an applicant - it would ignore them.

2) Therefore, the elite guild appears to be a social guild.

3) As a social guild, the social environment is an important factor to consider when joining the guild.

4) Given the degrading responses to the applicant after the initial recruitment officer's response, it is clear that there is a negative social environment in the guild.

5) Therefore, a good applicant will not want to join the guild because it's full of rude, social morons, as opposed to polite, social helpers.

QED.

Aljabra said...

@Squishalot
"It does matter, because a good applicant will look at such posts and realise that said elitist guild is overly social."
You do forget, that that guild is not The PuG with its declared asociality. It's normal hardcore guilds, and normal hardcore guilds pretty often IS social as well. Now, you must remember, that for any normal social group it's quite normal to help members of the group, but also it's very normal to bash outsiders. In fact, most social groups tend to see it as mandatory behaviour, and especially strict to those outsiders, that made an attempt to get in and failed it. So every normal social will see, that this group is strong, united and don't neglect they duty to bark they support to they leaders. Most socials will sacrifice all they wealth just to get into such a society, and "social" is not equal to "bad player". All they need is to apply perfomance-filter to the long line of applicants and they're good.
Your mistake is that you forget about the main social imperative and view social group as group of asocials.

Squishalot said...

@ Aljabra: Did you stop reading after my first point:

"3) As a social guild, the social environment is an important factor to consider when joining the guild."

My point is, as a good player, I wouldn't want to join a pack of arseholes who take pleasure in making other peoples' lives miserable, for any reason. There are plenty more decent guilds out there. The only people such a guild will attract are those who have similar dispositions - bullies, lowlifes and generally unsavoury people.

Aljabra said...

@Squishalot
" Did you stop reading after my first point:"
No, your actual mistake was in №4, and at that point it was visible, that you, despite calling the guild social (which is correct), still look at it as on the bunch of asocials.

"My point is, as a good player, I wouldn't want to join a pack of arseholes who take pleasure in making other peoples' lives miserable, for any reason."
But in this case any social guild is closed for you. Especially those, who really make any decent progress. You absolutely correct to view them as the pack - it is very similar to the pack of wolves, who happen to be extremely social and, at the same time, extremely effective.
Your mistake was to consider social environment inside the guild and behaviour of the guild members towards outsiders the same thing, which will sure be the case in case of asocial guild. But in social one what happens inside always quite different from what outsiders get. People do praise they own group and tend to dislike others. For hardcore guild even an attempt of moron to get in is a direct attack on the group, as moron inside will harm the group. Therefore, they response should be quite agressive. And in this case you can see even more - moron was actively attacking the guild after she was rejected. Not recruting officer, but the guid as a whole.

Squishalot said...

@ Aljabra: "Your mistake was to consider social environment inside the guild and behaviour of the guild members towards outsiders the same thing, which will sure be the case in case of asocial guild. But in social one what happens inside always quite different from what outsiders get."

I disagree with you, if a member did exactly the same thing and argued exactly the same way, I think he would have got exactly the same response, plus /gkick.

But, on that note, we'll have to agree to disagree, since there is no objective data that will prove either of us correct.

Aljabra said...

@Squishalot
"I disagree with you, if a member did exactly the same thing and argued exactly the same way, I think he would have got exactly the same response, plus /gkick."
You don't disagree with me, as I think that yes, it most likely would've been so. There are, however, one factor, that you don't take into account. Guild member is a person, who got inside, and it quite obvious, that this guild have pretty strict filter on that. So, probability of such event is highly unlikely (no person "with a life" can care about the ingame perfomance enough to get in, they always have some sign, like "no gems, no enchants, 71/0/0 build", dps below healer on probation run and so on). Only way for M&S to get in such a guild is to be close friend of some officer or even guild master, and such kind of people perfomance and views on life don't bother social guildmembers much, there are plenty of ape subroutines to take care of that. Naturally, such people don't raid serious content that much and, therefore, don't affect raid perfomance (if guild leaders are not insane, of course, but that part we'll never know).

Squishalot said...

But this is my point. Such an attitude in-guild, irrespective of how often it arises, is a destructive social environment, and one that an intelligent player would avoid. Same way that an intelligent person would avoid a destructive work environment, irrespective of whether they think that they would be in the firing line.

For example, even though I'm male, I wouldn't want to work for a company where the senior management groped / indecently touched young (or old) female employees, because it's disrespectful generally, even though I will never be the target of that disrespect.

Aljabra said...

@Squishalot
"Such an attitude in-guild, irrespective of how often it arises, is a destructive social environment"
Destructive? Why? If you are bad and act badly you'll be scolded - that's, basically, definition of normal social environment each of us learn in early childhood. The only reason you (as social) may find it undesirable is if you think, that you are as bad, as moron from the example.

"an intelligent player would avoid."
Why? Because people there don't like morons? It's not a big secret, that most of the intelligent people don't like morons as well. In that example they don't disrespect anyone, who deserve respect - on the other hand, the hero of the story shows extreme disrespect towards all players, that took a little time to get some information on the game.

"For example, even though I'm male, I wouldn't want to work for a company where the senior management groped / indecently touched young (or old) female employees, because it's disrespectful generally, even though I will never be the target of that disrespect."
To be accurate, you must also consider, that this company don't ever hire females and no females work there.

Squishalot said...

1) The guy was scolded by the guild recruitment officer in the first reply. He was being abused by the rest.

2) People deserve respect by existing in the first place. This goes back to my issue with Gevlon's 'filth' attitude. Just because someone isn't as intelligent as you are doesn't mean that they don't deserve to be treated like a human being.

3) I wouldn't want to work at a company that was discriminatory to that end either. It's illegal for a reason.

Aljabra said...

@Squishalot
1) Yes, indeed. Normal reaction was to go and fix stuff she was pointed at (and in a quite polite manner, too). What do we see instead? Yes, a direct offence. On a direct offence it is quite normal for good community to start a counter-attack on the offender in defence of they own officer.

2) No way. There are no great (well, in truth, any) achievement in existing. What people deserve simply by existing is zero-point reaction (no one is doing anything that involves you, good or bad). To get from this point you need to do something yourself, so people can decide, how to treat you. You can't define, what is "being treated as a human being" is, no matter, how hard you try. It was considered one of the basic rights of human being to have slaves, and for a pretty long time too, modern civilisation is very young in comparison. So in no way current "being treated as a human being" is absolute. Zero-point, on the other hand, is.

3) Again, the trees had hidden a forest from you. It's not about how discriminatory is not to hire women (though there are some jobs, where women are not welcome due to the purely biological reasons and not some kind of discrimination), it's about talking about the situation, when it theoretically possible to have some offensive behaviour, but practically it's about as realistic, as meeting live dodo bird.

Squishalot said...

@ Aljabra:

1) At no point was the guy offensive in his reply to the guild officer. There was a reference to the guild being 'complete nerds'. But this is hardly an attack, compared to "I believe your IQ is so low that, if you put degrees celcius behind your IQ number, you can keep a chicken well for a month."

2) Are you arguing on behalf of slavery? Or that it's ok to bully and beat someone up, just because they're not as smart as you are?

3) It's not unrealistic. I'm assuming that members will be able to get alts into the guild quite easily. Alts won't necessarily be as well researched as their mains.

Aljabra said...

@Squishalot
1) Oh really? And "Well, you don't need to be such an ass about it." is not offensive in any way, especially after calm and polite analysis with very calm and not in any way offensive conclusion? You sure you did read that response?

2) I hope, some day you will be able to see what I actually say, instead of hunting for a familiar words.
I'm not defending slavery in any way, I just point, that concept was around for a thousands of years and still came out as no good. Current concepts is mostly less then hundred years old, do you really believe, they was around long enough to prove they are absolute good? Still, you accepting them as absolute.
And no, I don't think that bullying is ok, but excluding stupid people from your group, on account of them being stupid, is. After all, I don't think they deserve part in my time and nerves just because they exist, or me myself deserve part of they time just because I'm around.

3) You missing a point again and again, I begin to feel you doing it intentionally. It's not the state of research that matters, it's the attitude. I have something around 10 alts, and I don't even try to hope, that I can play them equally well, and that I know enough about they classes, specs, rotations and whatever there is to know. But I will never say, that I want them in the raids, but I have A LIFE, so no, I won't even try to research what's wrong with them and won't try to improve. Instead, I'll try to catch somebody with knowledge for some quick tips, or visit some well-known resources, or both. That's the difference, that's the point. We are talking about a hardcore guild here, about people, that make serious effort to improve they performance by fraction of percent, and you trying to say, that one of them will say that he have A LIFE, so he won't do any research on his alt, but will bring it to raids?

Squishalot said...

@ Aljabra:

1) No, it's not offensive. It's saying that he felt offended by the guild officer's reply.

2) Again, the issue isn't excluding from one's group, the issue is about not negatively impacting on someone. Any harm from being excluded is self-inflicted. The harm from being bullied is inflicted by the person bullying / abusing. Do you see the difference I'm referring to?

3) You're missing my point just as much. If I have an alt in the guild, who isn't as well min/maxed as my main, there is a likelihood that this particular guild will abuse / ridicule me as a result, as demonstrated by their treatment of a potential guild member. If they don't treat others with respect, I have no reason to believe that they will treat me with respect. I acknowledge that I'm not perfect, that my spec / gear / gemming may not be perfect, and in the cases that they're not, I'd rather be in a guild that discusses things with me fairly and reasonably, rather than one that abuses me for having a low IQ and making stupid choices. Yes, there's more to the MotD than making bad character choices. No, it doesn't excuse the guild posters from being a group of arseholes.

Aljabra said...

@Squishalot
1) So you think, that clearly present "You are an ass!" is not an direct, unmasked, insult, but indication, that person is offended? Nice opinion, but most of the people still tend to get at least slightly unhappy, when someone call them that, so it is an insult. Repeated twice, too.
2) Sure. Now, let's return to our MOTD and look, what kind of bullying is there. First reply of the recruiting officer is, in short, sounds like "I don't think, that you'll fit in, so go away". Bullying? No. Exclusion? Yes, it is. Positions set and from this point any further attempt to get in is an invasion, as it will be forcing someone's will on others.
3) I don't know, maybe, my language skill are too poor, and I just can't get you to understand because of that, but you again talking about some other case, not the one in MOTD. You trying to protect a person, that don't want to discuss anything fairly and reasonably, but instead call the person, who made an attempt to make such discussion, an ass first line of the reply. Guild posters gave the girl exactly the kind of love she asked for twice.
So, to summarise, you bashing a guild of perfectly reasonable people with perfectly reasonable responses for being perfectly reasonable and denying respect to the person, that clearly deserves none. Your opinion that any, even the worst, person deserve respect just because they are, is illogical and people can't be called arseholes just because you think they should respect every moron out there, and they don't.

Squishalot said...

@ Aljabra:

1) "You are an ass" and "You are being an ass" are two different things. Yes, I do see a difference in there. One is saying that you are an ass, no ifs or buts. The other is saying that you're acting like an ass, and that's not good since you're better than that.

2) I've already said, multiple times, I have no issue with the guild officer's initial reply. In fact, the only concerning quote I've pulled out thus far is from the second guild replier who made the IQ comment. Yes, that's bullying.

3) Yes, I'm talking about some other case, because remember what this point stemmed from - that I wouldn't want to be in a guild that treated the MotD in that way - if the MotD is treated that way, that means that I'm likely to experience / witness such treatment to myself or to others in the future, and I don't want to be associated with that.

The difference between you and me, and perhaps Gevlon and me, is that I believe that there is a minimum of an '/ignore' respect level. I will not go out of my way to bully or put someone down, irregardless of how stupid or moronic they may be, because that would mean that I would be negatively impacting their lives directly.

The appropriate action for the guild would have been to ignore or to ban, following the OP's second post. What they have instead done is bully and abuse a person for calling their group mean and elitist. It wouldn't be tolerated at a school, it wouldn't be tolerated in a workplace, and I don't think it should be either tolerated nor encouraged in an online forum either.

Aljabra said...

@Squishalot
1) In any case, difference or not, both are clearly an insult, especially when it's like in this situation (officer did not act in any way offensive).

2) Second reply was not to initial application, therefore it must be considered with taking in account the reply of the moron, that was an direct insult to the guild officer and entire guild (as everyone in guild had obviously done they research and, therefore, are no-life losers). Answering an insult in non-polite manner is not bullying.

3) You do make completely illogical conclusion.
If some man would come to you one day and hit you in the face, and you'll beat him up after that, you won't be considered bully and no one would think, that you'll beat up someone else just because you like to. And yet, you make this conclusion towards this guild members.

"I will not go out of my way to bully or put someone down, irregardless of how stupid or moronic they may be, because that would mean that I would be negatively impacting their lives directly."
I won't do that as well, but there are very important "if", that, I think, you don't even try to consider. There are no way I'll go around bashing stupid people for they stupidity, if they keep it to themselves and don't let that stupidity harm me. As long, as they do harm only to themselves, they are free to be as stupid, as they like, I don't care. The moment it touches me - then it becomes completely different matter, and then I'll do whatever it takes to let them to feel at least as unhappy, as they made me.
So no, the behaviour of the guild is still in no way abusive, they just returning the favour the way they received it.

Squishalot said...

@ Aljabra:

1) It's not an insult. It's saying "you've gone too far", in the same vein of "you don't have to be rude about it". It means exactly the same thing.

2) If the guild officer replied to the reply, it wouldn't be bullying. The fact that three or four guys from their guild have come along to dig the boot in makes it bullying.

Picture a school ground. A young girl goes up to the cool girls and wants to join, and gets told in no uncertain terms that she's not up to scratch. She calls the other girl a bitch for being so rude. Four of the 'cool girls' come over and start abusing her for being fat, for being lazy, for being ugly, and then go off and post up a humiliating photo of her on the school noticeboard.

Yes, that's bullying. And essentially, that's what happened in that thread.

3) Again, see the difference between bullying and responding. If I beat the guy up and we get into a fist fight, that's not bullying - it's a 'fair fight'. If I get a few of my friends together and pin him down and beat the crap out of him, that's abuse.

"There are no way I'll go around bashing stupid people for they stupidity, if they keep it to themselves and don't let that stupidity harm me.
...
The moment it touches me - then it becomes completely different matter, and then I'll do whatever it takes to let them to feel at least as unhappy, as they made me."


Would you really feel bad that some loser reckons you've got no life because you know your spec? Because if you do, you really need to grow a thicker skin and suck it up. The guys in that guild didn't feel bad. They saw an outlet to have fun and bash someone smaller than them, thus inflating their egos. To present it any other way is ignorance.

Aljabra said...

@Squishalot
1) If you want to say "you are being too rude!", you need to say "you are being too rude!". Obviously insulting form on obviously polite reply is an insult.

2) And why is that? Imagine the very same situation, when someone came and punched you, and while you were getting your bearings, three of your friends came upon him and beat him up for punching you - would this be bullying, or just an attempt to protect they friend (you)? Should they just stand and look at him beating you?

"And essentially, that's what happened in that thread."
I begin to doubt your ability to read in cases you want input to match your chosen solution. There are not a trace of rudeness in the response moron from the example got. It was very polite, calm response, with various helpful pointers and clear hope, that everything listed can be fixed for the greater good of the applicant. Any rude response to that is clearly an insult to anyone, who value polite and constructive conversation. What you do here is telling "I want to think, that there was unmotivated abuse and pointless bullying, and if facts say otherwise, screw the facts".

3) Nice. Great. Now, I understand your point completely. You know, because of people like you, in my country there are this moronic set of laws, which basically deny the right of self-defence to anyone. If you trying to protect yourself and somehow harm the offender in process, there are very strong probability, that you'll get the bigger jail tour, than that guy, if he get any at all (and the court will not give a damn about what are you supposed to do to protect yourself against armed man, you must die, but no harm must be done by you). Because, you know, there are that possibility, that you are stronger, than him, and therefore you used more, than required force, to protect yourself, and that's not fair.

"Would you really feel bad that some loser reckons you've got no life because you know your spec?"
Should I be happy about that?

"Because if you do, you really need to grow a thicker skin and suck it up."
Personally, I don't think there are any offence, that should be "sucked up". It encourages more offence, as people start to think you are weak and can be bullied. It's an ape subroutine, well known one too.

"They saw an outlet to have fun and bash someone smaller than them"
They've seen offence and responded accordingly. It was verbal offence and it got verbal response. All is fair.
More interesting is official forum thread, where that same moron was happily stampeded over by the horde of people, who got enough of this bullshit from countless M&S, hiding beyond the wall of "it's nothing, you shouldn't answer, you need to grow a thicker skin and suck it up". It's ideal hiding place for them. As long, as it exist and countless parents tell this to they children, M&S can feel safe.

Squishalot said...

@ Aljabra:

1) Perhaps you're not up to speed with kids' lingo these days. Kids use words like 'ass' and 'gay' all the time. By virtue of their common colloquial usage, they lose their offensiveness.

In Australia, the term 'bastard' gets used a lot - "what a bastard". There's a well told tale of an English cricket captain who came to complain about being called a bastard by one of the Australian players, and the Australian captain turned around and asked his team "Ok, which one of you bastards called this bastard a bastard?" There is no offensiveness in it, it's just the word that they use. In this case, 'ass' = 'rude'. He's definitely not calling the guild officer a buttock or a donkey.

2) I fail to see any damage being done by the MotD. Do you? If a person came along and called me names, my friends and I would probably laugh, ignore and move on. Your example only works in the case where there is some sort of mental or physical harm involved. I don't see any harm here at all, and I challenge you to present any evidence to the contrary.

3) Who said anything about self defense being wrong? I said that if you get hit, you can hit him in self defense. What you can't do is get your gang around and beat the crap out of him, because their actions won't be in self defense, unless you're obviously going to lose the fight.

If someone hits you and you pull out a gun and shoot him, yes you used more than the required force. If you hit him a bit hard, and break his arm, the court's not going to charge you for it. If you use excessive force (he's down, and you continue to kick him), then it's no longer self defense, and you deserve to be charged. That is fair.

"Should I be happy about that?"

I'd be indifferent, to be honest. In Gevlon's terms, it's not goblinish to get emotional about such things.

"Personally, I don't think there are any offence, that should be "sucked up"."

Precisely, there is no offense here for being called an ass, which is why it should be sucked up. In any event, the appropriate action should be to ban the OP from the guild forum.

"They've seen offence and responded accordingly. It was verbal offence and it got verbal response. All is fair."

Again, there's no offense. The degree of verbal offense that was 'responded' was well in excess. See my prior example of the 'cool girls'. There is a difference between 'response' and 'humiliate'.

"More interesting is official forum thread, where that same moron was happily stampeded over by the horde of people, who got enough of this bullshit from countless M&S, hiding beyond the wall of "it's nothing, you shouldn't answer, you need to grow a thicker skin and suck it up"."

Lol, what hiding place? Forums are the biggest trolling areas for M&S bashers. The official forums are the best place for it. That's why it and Thottbot have such horrible reputations for trolling.

The official forums and places like 4chan and their /b/ forum are generally recognised as an example of how people on the internet will be horrible in ways that they would never be in real life, without realising that the internet is part of real life.

Going back to the original point: why would I want to join this guild? A logical, rational person wouldn't get emotional about being called an ass. If we assume that the guild members are logical and rational (as you seem to want to), then they can only be abusing the OP for the fun of it, meaning that it's an environment of bullying. If they're not logical and rational, then why would I want to join such people? Would you?

Aljabra said...

@Squishalot
1) So you think, that people should encourage kids to use such a language?
2) I do. Stupid kid came to the place, where stupid kids are not welcome, did stupid thing, got polite "please go away", threw a tantrum, got kicked out, threw a tantrum once again, this time in public place. That what's happened. There are plenty of damage - look at yourself, you think, that perfectly normal guild is a bad place, just because they scolded some moron.
3) You. You said, that it's one-on-one, or it's not fair and bullying.

"If you hit him a bit hard, and break his arm, the court's not going to charge you for it. "
And that's where you are wrong, it will. Maybe, in some other country it's different, but here - no luck, you inflicted severe bodily harm, and if you can't present equal severe bodily harm on yourself - you are guilty, no court will say otherwise.

"I'd be indifferent, to be honest. In Gevlon's terms, it's not goblinish to get emotional about such things."
Who talking about emotional? No, emotions have no saying in this, just pure logic, and I had explained it already.

" The degree of verbal offense that was 'responded' was well in excess."
Exactly, and it's how it should be. That's the only way to shield even from minor offence.

"Lol, what hiding place?"
You seriously don't see me naming it? The wall of "it's nothing, you shouldn't answer, you need to grow a thicker skin and suck it up"? It's obvious, that moron was intended to show the world, how minor was the offence, and how inadequate reaction to it was, gaining support of people, who think like you, that the guild should just swallow the offence and keep silence. And she got it, there are several people, who gave her exactly that reaction.

"why would I want to join this guild?"
It's very simple, actually. The same reason most of the people in there joined. The very same reason MOTD made an application. The most obvious reason you may want to join hardcore raiding guild. To get they progress to yourself, of course. It's logical and rational. It also requires some investment on your side, as you need to get your performance up to they level.

"If we assume that the guild members are logical and rational (as you seem to want to)"
They are not, they are highly social, and they actions say it very loud (logical and rational would've left they recruiting officer to bash hopeless moron, as from his posts one can conclude, that this guy is a master of verbal abuse and don't really need any help with it). They also happen to be exact type of social, that can help you to get what you want from the game, if you want raid progress.

"meaning that it's an environment of bullying."
...to the outside world (look's like I need to remind you once again, that they are socials, and what's inside the group have no connection to what's outsider gets). If you are really logical and rational person, do you really care that much about what they do to the outside world, as long, as they help you get what you want?

Squishalot said...

@ Aljabra:

1) By reacting, you are indirectly encouraging them, because they know they can use it to get a result.

2) Stupid kid didn't just get kicked out. Like I said, kid was abused and humiliated. Banning from the forum would be the equivalent of being kicked out.

3) "but here - no luck, you inflicted severe bodily harm, and if you can't present equal severe bodily harm on yourself - you are guilty, no court will say otherwise."

Provide me with a law or precedent, or even a news article about a court case, suggesting as much. No developed country has laws as draconian as you're suggesting.

"Who talking about emotional? No, emotions have no saying in this, just pure logic, and I had explained it already."

You're suggesting that you and/or the guild found offense in the statement. It's like Gevlon being called 'Hitler'. Words can only hurt you emotionally. If you have pure logic, you won't be hurt, which you're insisting that the guild should be.

"It's obvious, that moron was intended to show the world, how minor was the offence, and how inadequate reaction to it was, gaining support of people, who think like you, that the guild should just swallow the offence and keep silence."

The reason I don't see it is because I know what the official forums are like, and there is no such 'wall' there. That's my point. Find me an example of where such naming and shaming of trolls has actually resulted in sympathy, and not further trolling, and I'll concede that the 'wall' exists. Otherwise, I stand by my assertion that it doesn't exist, because most people are arseholes online.

"The same reason most of the people in there joined."

You miss my point. Why this guild, and not any other raiding guild on the server? If they're interested in getting good people, then they need to compete against the other good guilds on the server. There is plenty of competition for good players.

"...to the outside world (look's like I need to remind you once again, that they are socials, and what's inside the group have no connection to what's outsider gets). If you are really logical and rational person, do you really care that much about what they do to the outside world, as long, as they help you get what you want?"

You're being inconsistent. Consider why they ganged up on the OP. They did it for fun. As soon as the guild decides that they don't need you, for whatever reason, they will turn on you, because that's the sort of people they are - socials who bash others for fun. Why would I want to take that risk?

"They are not, they are highly social, and they actions say it very loud (logical and rational would've left they recruiting officer to bash hopeless moron, as from his posts one can conclude, that this guy is a master of verbal abuse and don't really need any help with it)."

And this is precisely why I wouldn't want to join this guild. Their rude social actions are not what a good player would want from a guild when I can find progression from a more professional guild elsewhere on the server.

Aljabra said...

@Squishalot
1) There are some results, that people tend to avoid.
2) Sure, stupid kid was politely asked out. When that didn't work, other means was used. And when simple ban is usually enough to keep stupid kid from returning, it also don't discourage other stupid kids to try the same, while public humiliation usually is.
3) In Russia it is exactly as I say. I can link you to entire forum, discussing this matters, if you can read Russian.

"If you have pure logic, you won't be hurt, which you're insisting that the guild should be."
First, that people were clearly offended by the moron, so they were hurt (and I don't claim them to be pure logical people). Second, hurt or not, it is still an offence. This one may not hurt, but if it will go unchecked, there will be next one, it is inevitable. You can wait for when it will hurt, and you can do some simple steps to eliminate the possibility. Your choice? Try to use pure logic for this one.

"Otherwise, I stand by my assertion that it doesn't exist, because most people are arseholes online."
You don't think like a social in this case. You think, that you need a majority to repel an attack. And social don't need majority, he need only to be in a group of supporters. MOTD did found several people, supporting her point, and that's enough for that wall to be erected. She's in a group, who think the same - she's safe and can continue to do what she done before. If you'll look around and know, what you are looking for, you can find many people, using this trick to hide from facts. In fact, there several "religious" groups, that use it on daily basis, and some people even found, how to profit from this subroutine.

"Why this guild, and not any other raiding guild on the server? If they're interested in getting good people, then they need to compete against the other good guilds on the server. There is plenty of competition for good players."
Yes, and this example is a part, which will get them some good (though social) people, as it plays the right music for them.

"Consider why they ganged up on the OP. They did it for fun."
Yes. Outsider marked itself as a target - so free target practice.

"As soon as the guild decides that they don't need you, for whatever reason, they will turn on you, because that's the sort of people they are - socials who bash others for fun."
They will turn on you because they are socials. Most socials turn on people, who was marked enemy by the leader or person in charge. It's normal social behaviour, you can get it in any place with active social community.

"Why would I want to take that risk?"
No idea. Everyone evaluates risks personally (as everyone seek different things). I can try to join if they have some progress I need, someone may decide, that strong social bonds and working in such a good team, ready to protect themselves, is nice, someone may like the colour of they tabard.

"And this is precisely why I wouldn't want to join this guild."
Your choice, of course. You think, that risk, that you wouldn't fit is more, than the gain - perfectly reasonable. In fact, as you clearly don't like the reasons of they actions, there are very good chance, you won't fit, so the risk is not worth it. By the way, I recommend to read other applications threads on they forum. It is useful to understand, that reasonable people, who don't fit, doesn't get the treatment MOTD got - if they behave.

Squishalot said...

@ Aljabra:

1) You responding to every troll out there will simply encourage them to continue trolling. What's the result to avoid?

2) That doesn't make public humiliation any more 'right'. The Nazis asked the Jews to leave, and when the Jews didn't, they thought a more obvious demonstration would be appropriate. Despite its effectiveness, it doesn't make such actions 'right'.

Another example, if you don't like extremes. If the cool girls killed the wannabe, it would be a very good demonstration that they don't want wannabes to bother them. It doesn't make their actions 'right'.

3) I can't read Russian, but I wouldn't trust a forum anyway. Questions on human rights, ethics, religion and other 'controversial' topics tend to be wildly inaccurate on online discussion sources as participants tend to be dominated by people with extreme views.

In response to your points:

* If you're not hurt, it's not an offence. You don't get out and kick someone's car just because they beeped their car horn at you.

* Who did the OP find? A few voices amongst dozens of trolls? Again, I don't see that as a wall. And even if it is a 'wall' and it provides sympathy for the OP, it has nothing to do with whether or not the guild ought to suck it up, which was my original point in this regard.

* If the people it attracts are bullies, then again, most good players (noting that rational players are generally better than irrational ones) won't want to join.

* Whether or not a target appears, the target practice is wrong in the first instance. Or are you the sort of person who throws rocks at pigeons, just because they're there? Free target practice?

* The fact that they're so social takes away from the raiding aspect. Again, a good raiding guild should be run professionally, and there will be better ones to join.

* You can't ask back a rhetorical question. When I ask "why would I take that risk?", that is to say that "I wouldn't take that risk to join such a guild, but you think I would, so you should be able to tell me the reason you think I would".

* Again, my point is that a rational person would come to such a conclusion. If rational players are better than irrational players, then by eliminating rational players from potential applicants, you lose a good potential player base.

Anyway, I took your recommendation and found this: http://www.joonbe-guild.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=38

I also came across this interesting post by Sahyun:

"Also, I don't want people raiding in multiple guilds, so all your alts will come with you as well.

Just to have it clear, you're in this guild or in another one, not a combination across characters."

http://www.joonbe-guild.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=230

So yes, my alts will suffer the wrath of the guild!

That's actually a pretty enlightening thread to read anyway. In particular, it says volumes about Sahyun, the guild leader of Joonbe. The applicant in this thread was polite at pretty much all times. There was a 5 day gap in between the applicant stating that they're willing to gear up and max out on enchants etc, and then giving up on the application based on guild responses to other applications!

Yes, reading up on the other applications are interesting indeed. It does further reinforce my view that the guild is filled with bullies, at least the key forum members and the guild leader, who take pleasure in the belittling and humiliation of others.

Aljabra said...

@Squishalot
1) It's pretty easy to filter out trolls.
2) You really miss the difference between "humiliate" and "destroy", or just playing 50-year old trick "if Nazi breathe, no sane man will breathe, because Nazi did bad things"?
3) There are links to real cases.

" If you're not hurt, it's not an offence. You don't get out and kick someone's car just because they beeped their car horn at you."
So... if someone managed to hit me with a stick in the way I don't feel hurt, I must laugh and encourage him to try again?

"Who did the OP find? A few voices amongst dozens of trolls? "
Yes. That's more than enough. And, by the way, most people in that thread had perfectly valid points, in fact, there were way less trolls, then one can expect in such a place.

"it has nothing to do with whether or not the guild ought to suck it up, which was my original point in this regard."
On the contrary, it does. Moron got support, so other morons will continue to do the same. After some time no one will remember, what was initial case, but everyone will remember, that "elitist jerks with no life" are bad people by default.

"If the people it attracts are bullies"
Why? No, most likely it'll be bullies victims.

"Whether or not a target appears, the target practice is wrong in the first instance"
Here we'll never reach conclusion, as you think, that people have some rights, they can't lose no matter, what they do, and I don't think so.

"The fact that they're so social takes away from the raiding aspect."
Raiding aspect can be measured independently.

" but you think I would"
But I don't. I'm not telling you to join, I just show you, where your points contradict some knowledge I have.

" Again, my point is that a rational person would come to such a conclusion."
And my point is, that rational person, who have some knowledge of social minds, won't come to that conclusion.

"So yes, my alts will suffer the wrath of the guild!"
Why? Why do they need to know, that you have any alts at all?

"In particular, it says volumes about Sahyun, the guild leader of Joonbe. The applicant in this thread was polite at pretty much all times."
Look's like he and this applicant share some history we will never know.

"at least the key forum members and the guild leader, who take pleasure in the belittling and humiliation of others."
Well, as a matter of fact, forums tend to attract exactly this type of people. Others tend to visit them on a very rare occasions, so you won't see them there.

Squishalot said...

@ Aljabra:

I do give up, we're not going to see eye to eye on this. Suffice to say:

1) I am a rational, 'good' player.

2) I am less likely to apply to Joonbe as a result of the way they treat applicants, and I have logical reasons for coming to this conclusion.

3) Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that their actions will drive away other 'good' players like myself who also believe that their actions were wrong, even if there are still other good players who would want to join for other reasons.

That was my point at the start, and I still maintain it now.