Greedy Goblin

Wednesday, June 23, 2010

Damage meter on trash

The PuG update: We are 10/12, again with people who firstkilled those bosses. Pot was 4300G. Many items went for minimal bid. Thanks for the 3x300G donation from the followers of BQL. 90 people in the guild, come! And please stop asking "what class is needed?". Choosing your class is your choice and yours only.


Posting damage meter on trash is considered impolite in WoW. There were even posts where this was considered "jerk" behavior, since "properly specced" DPS can't compete with a tank or a DPS who has a stupid AoE spec he made clearly to top the meters.

This is bullshit!

In a "modern" 5-man, doing the instance or not is not a question. Wiping in a 5-man is a sign of multiple failures on huge scale. These instances were soloed by bored DKs and Paladins. The "job" in a 5-man is doing them fast. The time of doing it is (denizens_sum_HP / DPS + walk time). Walk time can be decreased by hunters, however the monsters are usually chainpulled, the group is always in combat, so it doesn't work. So speeding up the 5-man depends on increasing group DPS. About 90% of the denizens_sum_HP is trashmob HP. They are usually in packs or can be chainpulled into big packs.

The job is mostly to AoE down these packs. The guy who does it better is better DPS. However people have the stupid sense of social status. They believe they are above the "lowly" job of AoE-ing trashmobs. The name "trash"mob betrays this thinking. Why are these monsters considered "trash"? They are part of the world, just like players and bosses, their loot is not bad either. I mean considering their power, killing them gives higher G/hour than killing bosses. However, since they don't drop epics (status symbols), they are considered lowly and grinding them is also lowly.

These people believe that grinding the "trash" is a job for lowly "n00bs" and it's an insult from Blizzard to force them to pollute their noble hands with such lowly job. Of course it's a lie. If they are "noble raiders" as they think they are, why are they in a "lowly 5-man"? Because they are not so "noble" to miss on the 2 frost emblems, that's why! They want the reward but don't want the work.

The guy who goes to a 5-man with single-target optimized spec is like the guy who go to a raid in PvP spec. Can be done, but sub-optimal. Obviously the latter would be ridiculed. If the PvP-specced guy would reply with "but i can pwn lot of nubs lol and u cant", he'd be kicked instantly from the raid. However the same guys don't bother to give their maximum in a 5-man, yet they refuse to be called slackers and abuse those who carry them! Funnily they act the same as the 1500 DPS DK in the raid: "lol 5manz r not srius bzns" is no different from "lol its just a game i hav life cant farm gear to make 3K".

The job in the 5-man is to AoE down lot of easy enemies. The guy who does it better is better player in the actual aspect of the game. Your performance in different aspects do not count here. Of course you have every right to not play this aspect. But if you choose to, you are expected to pull your weight and others have every right to call you a moron or a slacker if you can't/don't. The only DPS meter that matters here is the "overall damage done" at the end of the instance.

Clarification: I don't say anyone must have instance-AoE spec. I'd just like to point out that the same people who demand min-maxing in one aspect of the game are rejecting the same min-maxing on another one. I'd like to stir discussion about min-maxing, just like Klepsacovic did. Also "5-mans are just bit slower with raid spec" is not an answer to the question. The question is not "Is it acceptable to come in single target spec to a 5-man?" It is. The question is "Why do people abuse those who beat them in a 5-man, instead of accepting that they slacked a bit?".


Azzur said...

The guy who goes to a 5-man with single-target optimized spec is like the guy who go to a raid in PvP spec.

Really? There is a good reason why people min-max only for bosses: It is because the consequence for failing is much higher than any other activity.

For people that refuse to contribute to 5-mans, they are just plain slackers and can be solved by a votekick.

Kurt said...

Personally, I've done things like make aoe specs for trash because I like winning meters. Even I can't agree with the extent to which you've taken this argument, though.

" "lol 5manz r not srius bzns" is no different from "lol its just a game i hav life cant farm gear to make 3K". "

This is simply not true, the former case is someone being lazy in a context with little difficulty and so little consequence, the second case is where someone is performing at a level where 10/25 people performing at that level would repeatedly wipe. That is a tangible difference.

I tried to think of something in my life where I'm often lazy, I came up with cooking for myself. I'm a pretty decent cook, but if I'm only preparing food for myself I sometimes won't pay much attention and end up with a poorly prepared meal. Kinda similar to someone who habitually drives distracted and runs over pedestrians, really, right?

Enough of that farfetched analogy--the thing about single-target dps vs. aoe dps is that I don't think we're actually talking about that here. Single target dps on the bosses in naxx doesn't really matter either at this point, if you're running it with a bunch of 6k gs people just running it for fun. The crucial distinction is between added dps which serves the purpose of speeding up the run via the formula above, and added dps which speeds up/improves the run by preventing wipes/making boss kills possible in the first place.

People in that naxx run will still say things like "single target dps matters and aoe dps doesn't", even though in the context of that naxx run alone neither matters very much. What they are referring to, whether consciously or not, is that all of the current tough fights are single target dps based, not aoe dps based, and so single target dps serves as the standard, and people then compete on single target dps even in outmoded context just to stay in the spirit of it/evaluate others' skill.

If you look at content at lvl 60, when aoe dps was useful for progression bosses more so than now, and single target dps was more often limited by tank threat generation, then you would see that aoe dps was regarded as more important back then than it is now, even though aoe was done much less frequently back then than it is now. This is an obvious and necessary result of the game design then and now.

Drakenrahl said...

I would think that most of the complaints about trash dps arise from when someone compares the damage he did spaming swipe on the sindragosa whelps against someone elses festergut damage then either saying/implying that he's better because of it.
Also the relevance of trash damage changes greatly depending on what your doing.
Like you said, while your running eroics the goal is to be in an out as fast as you can, usually meaning mass AoE. However trash inside raids is either irrelevant and people are more focused on sorting out roles and positioning for the next boss while casting blizzard every few seconds. Or the pull requires a certain kill order to prevent the dps from being punched in the face by a loose mob (Blood wing trash) and possibly wiping, or atleast maaking the raid wait while the over zealous dps gets rezzed/buffed.

Gevlon said...

I don't question that single target DPS is more important in raids. However 5-man is not raid, just like a PvP match is not raid.

Someone in PvE gear and spec in a BG is often insulted.

Why is it OK to show up in raid spec in a 5-man?

drakenrahl said...

Why is it OK to show up in raid spec in a 5-man?

It's no, but to be perfectly honest since the dawn of cross server pugs no one gives a damn what the other members do so long as it doesn't resolve in someone needing to make a corpse run. I've seen tanks fall off the bridge before the energy-voidwalker boss in nexus and leave group rather then run back. There simply isn't any sense of responsibility left in 5-mans

TL-DR It's ok because you can get away with it.

Kurt said...

"Why is it OK to show up in raid spec in a 5-man?"

This is a false dilemma. I've respecced 3-4x in a week for working on different progression bosses before. There isn't one raid spec, one 5 man spec, and one pvp specs. There are hundreds of different specs, with a range of possible appropriateness for different tasks. You could ask, mirroring your question about 5 mans, "why is it OK to show up in plaguewerks spec to marrowgar?" That's because marrowgar ain't nothing, and the same answer holds for 5 mans.

At every point throughout WoW's history, there has always been the 5 current hardest PvE fights. A reasonable person will spec for those 5 fights and then often just use one of those specs for relatively easy and meaningless content. I mean, I assume you're playing devil's advocate here, but this is pretty obvious: Opportunity cost of respeccing to get that slightly faster 5 man that you calculated earlier = 5 minutes respeccing to 5 man spec + 5 minutes respeccing back to progression raid spec + 100gold respec cost. So, 10 minutes and 100 gold, versus 10 seconds off your daily frost run--the goblin path is obvious, yes? Dual specs can open up an aoe spec sometimes, depending on your class/playstyle, but more often than not they don't.

AndruX said...

My guess would be that raiding specs are so close to "aoe spec for 5 mans" that it's not even a tradeoff, and people can't and shouldn't be bothered to pay a respec fee for running heroics before raid.

In your estimation, is a frost mage a better player in 5 mans because they have talents that prop up Blizzard? Because beyond that, they do far less total overall damage than a mage with a raiding spec.

Like you said, the only number that matters at the end of the run is "total damage done", which will be highest from players in raid spec and raid gear, because they have the most experience (one would hope). I for one can beat the shit out of most aoe-er's dps with my Enhancement shaman (~15% of total damage is aoe) unless they happen to be decked out in 264/277 gear.

In answer to your comment about "why is it not ok for someone to show up to a BG in pve gear and spec" it's because that person directly negatively affects the outcome of the match (i.e. "loss"), whereas in heroics having a sub-optimal player results in a slightly slower run (i.e. "difference of seconds or worst-case, minutes")

PS: in before Tobold tries to save you from how "angry" I clearly am...

Gusztav said...

Even with the 1-1,5k dps people a heroic doesn't really last more than 20 minutes, and their spec is even more questionable than a min-maxed boss dps spec (0/0/71 anyone?). So if these morons were on a "heroic spec", along with the one guy who knows what he's doing, it would go down to, say, 15 minutes. ATM you are losing 5 minutes of your life.

While the pve geared pve specced can mean the difference between a win or a loss in a BG (10 minutes wait time, lasting 20 minutes). But more importantly, in a BG there is something at stake, 1200 honor, not counting that you could earn more HKs = honor is pvp gear. In a heroic dungeon there's nothing at stake, you're going to finish it anyhow.

My point is, that your comparison in your comment is unfair.

As for the original post itself, I agree that damage on trash is important.

_At the end of the day_ however it all comes down to the person playing and his skills. No matter what the M&S in your group is specced, he won't break the 1,5k DPS. And I'm topping damage meter on my not-so-geared elemental shaman on Ahune, while queueing as healer.

Martijn said...

"Wiping in a 5-man is a sign of multiple failures on huge scale"

No it isn't. You know how much fun it is to do random heroics with 4 real life friends walking the whole instance backwards and just trying to kill eachother.

That's just awesome in WoW, the social aspect. I don't care about the gear (got 6200gs if u wanna know), gold (gold capped twice). I care about the fun, and we wiping in 5-man isn't a failure, as long we enjoyed it it was 100% worth it.

Chopsui said...

"Why do people abuse those who beat them in a 5-man, instead of accepting that they slacked a bit?"

Denial is easier than accepting defeat. I don't do my best for daily dungeons either, I could probably do up to 50% more dps there on my mage. I consider it slack time, and just chat a bit with the one or two guildies I run with, or with the guild itself. 50% extra effort from me isn't going to reduce the time taken very significantly, while it does reduce my enjoyment significantly. Hence, the slack.

The above is exaggerated by the fact that the only thing you 'win' in properly speccing and playing 5 mans is some time (Success=instance gets clear). The thing you 'win' in properly speccing and playing raids is that the boss is success (boss dies) instead of failure (boss doesnt die).


Andy said...

Martijn, you're obviously an exception to the general rule of LFD - most people just want to get it over with as quick as possible.

Sure, when running with guildies for fun I do stupid stuff like Thunderstorm the mobs away from the tank, or do my best to pull aggro, or deliberately pull multiple packs of mobs, just to liven things up a bit. But if I'm in a group with strangers I behave and try to help the run go as smooth as possible.

Anonymous said...

5mans means playing badly and displaying zero utility is okay.

Kurt said...

"Why do people abuse those who beat them in a 5-man, instead of accepting that they slacked a bit?"

This is the same error as someone who hears that single target dps is what matters, so would rather do 12k dps and die halfway through the boss attempt than do a sustained 11k dps until the boss is down, and who trumpets his 12k dps on the same attempt he died early. I suspect we've all grouped with many such people.

The hostility in your case is because this single target dpser has absorbed the common-sense knowledge that single target dps is more widely useful/relevant with his faulty understanding, and sees someone beating him with aoe damage as proof that they "aren't playing the game the right way". The answer to your refined question is : "more to pump up their own ego than to attack others"--they're not worth your time.

Phanttas said...

'Why is it OK to show up in raid spec in a 5-man?'
Because there are so few talents that most dps classes would change in order to improve their 5-man dps, that the decrease in time/gold spent for each respec (assuming they have a PvP, tank or heal spec the rest of the time, or they change their raid dps spec) is not worth it.
Then the reason people don't spec for trash, and also the reason it is called trash, is because it is considered easy, not they are too noble for it. There are certain trash pulls which are harder than others, but you should not spend half the night wiping on a trash pull. Having a seperate spec for it would be serious overkill.

Will said...

Used to do 5 mans as dual spec mage. One spec Arcane, one spec as aoe fire ...

But got so bored I ended up running 5 mans naked to find i was still coming second on dps.

Then I realised my normal attitude of wanting to finish it as fast as possible showed how I didn't enjoy much of the gameplay, so i quit.

Anonymous said...

I'll admit it up front, I'm one of those idiots who always gets pissed when someone posts a damage meter in a 5 man. I can't speak for others, but let me explain why it ticks me off.

The only time I care about someone else's DPS in a 5 man is if it is low enough that it is worth the time it takes to kick and replace them. If you're posting a DPS meter to point out someone isn't pulling their weight and then initiate a vote kick, that's great, I support that.

That's never what happens, at least not to me. In my 5 mans, the only reason people post damage meters is to brag, "lol u guyz suck I do l33t deeps" style. This is typical knuckle dragging social behavior, craving the attention of others. After the meter has been posted, someone will inevitably argue, some social's feelings will be hurt, maybe a social with otherwise great DPS will drop. In any case, the usual result is slowing down my 5man run, which is exactly what we're trying to avoid.

Using a damage meter to shame someone into doing more DPS could work, but only in a raid environment where people are both self motivated to improve and care about the group opinion. I have never seen this tactic work in a 5man, and doubt that it would. If someone is underperforming, either kick them, drop, or suffer through the run, those are pretty much the only options.

Inquisitor said...

I actually use my pvp specs in raids pretty frequently. They tend to have all the toys, all the weird situational tools, and all the obscure survival options.

Every so often, an encounter benefits from one of those more than it suffers from the 10-20% DPS loss - especially in the days when we have too much DPS for everything due to the ICC buff, and outgearing everything else.

Anonymous said...

there are several reasons one, AoE is not balanced some specs and classes do silly amounts of AoE and some strugle enormously.
i will cede the point specs but it still remains that for instance a re pala will change his spec or rotation not one bit bit and he will do perfect AoE dps and single target dps (most plate dps are also balnced wiht multi target spells to be competetive 1v1, i.e WW DS)
wich makes their AoE better without any effort.
and dps meters are generally stupid because you cant analyze them properly that being said yes sure the mut rogue slacks a bit in a HC true

Riptor said...

Seriously, 5 mans are an absolute joke in wotlk and now basically demanding to have ye trusty backup specc for this aspect of the game is plain ridiculous. Those Instances presented absolutely no Challenge in T5/T6 Gear and now with T9-T10 they sure as hell don’t demand any more attention other than just collecting Badges.
Also, Mobs with something between 60 and 90k Life somewhat favor anything that does not have to cast in order to deal damage.
The same in some way goes for Raids. Trash in wotlk is not designed to present a Challenge and it therefore does not matter if you pull your leet 15k DPS BombDPS on the Trash before Marrowgar, or if you focus the Spiders.

Denethal said...

In retrospect, it isn't an issue if it's a raid-spec or 5-man AOE-spec you enter a dungeon with.

Despite the spec, most classes have some AOE utility at endgame that they can utilize.

A more valid argument is that they insist on doing single-target-damage instead of using their AOE capabilities. Even a holy paladin can do nice aoe damage and still heal quite nicely. (Retribution aura + consecrate)

The main issue is those who slack deliberately. They may have 5.5k GS and brag about it, then proceed to use it as an excuse to slack.
The 3.2k GS really striving to do decent damage usually does a much better job than the 5.5k GS just because of that. And yet, it's the 3.3k GS player that's mocked by the player that outgear the instance.

There is only one rule in my dungeon runs: Don't slack. I don't really care what your dps or damage is, as long as you keep trying to do your best.

Tonus said...

I don't see why you'd spec differently between 5-man or raids. Paying attention and knowing the fights is far more important than whether you shifted a few points here or there. Particularly if you are at the stage where you are running heroics in 15 minutes.

Maybe it is class-based. I run mostly resto with my shaman, and my hunter is a DPS class under any spec. I wouldn't spec my hunter for AoE DPS just to put up better numbers- the group will finish fast either way, and my best DPS comes in the fights which matter more.

chewy said...

As a rogue combat spec would be far more optimal for 5 man daily heroics, but I don't bother off speccing that because of the cost and the effort.

My mutilate spec does the job and no, I'm not usually above some ret pali or DK but why would I care ? I wouldn't, for the same reason I don't care how quickly I get the cooking or fishing dailies done, it's not important.

Brodster said...

Basically Gevlon it's cost-reward ineffecient to spec optimally for 5 mans.

It's less ineffecient to spec properly for raids.

The Gnome of Zurich said...

I don't care if people link damage meters in heroics.

If somebody is claiming that the reason they can't do 2k damage is that they don't have an aoe spec, that is bs, because every class has enough aoe in a standard raiding dps spec to do 2k on trash in blues.

That said, the idea that people should be *expected* to spec for AoE in order to do 10-20% more damage in 5mans is ridiculous, because, assuming they are nowhere near the floor of 1.5k dps or so, there is no chance that that 10% is going to make the difference between wipe/no-wipe. It might save you 10-15 seconds on the run.

You get way more savings from not being so hot to top the dps meters, that you give the tank a half a chance to control bigger pulls and hold them in one spot. Everybody does more damage, but maybe you won't beat the tank by as much as if you are 100% trigger happy and deal with pulling trash aggro. It's all lol5man so you never die, but by making the tank fight you and have less control, the mobs get more spread out, and everybody does less dps. By making the healer heal you all the time, they won't have enough mana to add in their own dps (I can do 1-2k while healing a well run heroic as a resto druid). I see it on my dps characters all the time. If the tank has good control and makes big pulls, I do 50-100%+ more dps on trash than if they don't. This is a *much* bigger difference than whether I spec for AoE vs. not.

When the tank is good, the dps control whether you get big controlled pulls, or if the tank has to choose between chaotic and small neither of which is good for AoE dps.

If I'm fighting another similar geared and skilled dps for top spot on the meters, I can insure my place at the top by being an ass, and making sure I smack the aoe down the second I see those mobs moving no matter what's going on, even if the tank is trying to LoS one group into another. f you tank, I'm topping the meters, deal with my aggro and hold it even if it fucks with your plans.

But will this cause us to clear the dungeon faster? no. It only causes me to top the meters unless somebody else decides to compete with me for dps asshole of the run.

This is why I hate people who link meters in 5mans, they are usually the guy messing up everybody else's dps by their meter hungry play and then crowing that they are on top.

The only time I link a meter in a 5man is as a tank to demonstrate that you are probably not pulling aggro because I suck or you are leet when I am doing 2-3x as much damage as you are, and in fact you are almost certainly focus-firing the wrong mob.

Anonymous said...

The question;

The question is "Why do people abuse those who beat them in a 5-man, instead of accepting that they slacked a bit?".

The answer:

Because they hate seeing OCD, stick up their ass, do anything to 'win' punkasses think they're winning.

Anonymous said...

As a rogue mostly in ICC25 gear, I do daily hc's for the fun of it(and I do need the frost). I pull 5-6k dps on every trash or boss.
I think not being specced for aoe (FoK glyph, etc) can be compensated by knowing your class and what to do, but often isn't.

Why is single target talent accepted? Most people I see in random Hc's have dual spec, one for pve, one for pvp.

People do random Hc for the bagde they don't care if you do more dmg or "kick" that fireball. The one with 500 dps on the boss will be the one listing his/her trash aoe 4k dps. Single target talent is accepted becouse the M&S sees your 6k dps on the boss, and thinks "lol he ain got the l33t skill to do aoe, but is uber on boss".

Eluzis said...

Why a hell should they spec AOE? Let's see how classes spec and their AOE spells:

-> specs SP(and or haste)
=> Got Hurricane
\\\ Shaman:
-> specs AP(increases SP by 30%) or SP
=> Got Magma totem + Fire nova
\\\ DK:
-> Goes AP (increases SP just like shaman)
=> Drop B&D, 2 diseseases and Pestilence and go AFK for 12 sec
-> Only class where SP doesnt scale(anymore)
=> Explosive trap + Volley
\\\ Mage:
- /facepalm
\\\ Paladin:
-> AP increases just like shaman's
=> Conecration + Seal of COmmand
\\\ Rogue:
-> AP increases poison's dmg
=> Just spam Fan of knives (if enough targets in range energy will restore with procs)
\\\ Warlock
- same as mage
\\\ Warrior
- Specs AP
=> Most tricky but even with untalented AOE spec Cleave+Whirlwind(+Bladestorm)+TC do wonders

So every class can push quit solid AOE. But as i experienced in HC runs most classes just DONT GIVE A DAMN about it.

P.S. This was my explanation to "lol 5manz r not srius bzns" and Gevlon has explained it in "The guy who does..." paragraph

Orcstar said...

This post highlights what I think is wrong with WoW at them moment and especially 5 mans.

The objective isn't anymore to be successful but to "get it over with" as fast as possible. This is because not being successful is a darn hard thing in 5 mans.

The looking down on AoE heavy specs comes historically from the perspective that you had to do two things in a dungeon: get to a boss and kill the boss. Where getting to the boss was often an anoying trivial thing but fighting and killing the boss was the real goal of which the outcome was uncertain.

That is why people looked down on "trash champions" because often their trash successful spec was not so good when people tried to kill the boss. You had 1% wipes where a slightly bit different specced character or two would have made that difference. If only they wouldn't have been so big of trash whores.

Today...........heroics are just time which keeps you from getting emblems faster.

Espoire said...

"So every class can push quit solid AOE."

You forgot:

/// Priest:
- 2-4 mobs, wish there were more mobs, do single target because it beats out Mind Sear, come in last no matter what you do. Consider shifting out to Holy Nova if it's 4 mobs.
- 5+ mobs, Mind Sear. Rape the meters, show up around 20k DPS, possibly pull aggro and die if you're too dumb to hit Fade.

Anonymous said...

Posting recount results isn't rude because some people do more damage than others. Anybody who cares already knows what the results are because they run recount themselves. Posting isn't sharing new or useful information, it's gloating and fishing for praise and affirmation, which is doubly moronic in a 5-man. Everybody already knows the mage did top damage on the pull.

Even if you take speed of run as the measure of success, spamming recount is fail behavior because it takes time away from moving to the next group or actually doing damage. Spending time on clicking the buttons in the recount interface and inciting others to react goes against having the fastest run possible.

Anonymous said...

"Why do people abuse those who beat them in a 5-man, instead of accepting that they slacked a bit?"

And the answer is: "Because sometimes you know that you did everything perfectly and almost can't be any better, but that warrior still beat you". Mind you, the warrior can be lesser geared, but can easily win due to plate armor to survive agro and a lot of auto-AoE moves to.. win. I even was kicked out of the group a few times for ~4500dps, while lesser geared warrior had 5k. Yeah, frustration all the way.

/rev, the affly lock.

Harakan said...

CBA to read all the comments, but i'll say this here inc ase nobody wrote it yet:
anyone who specs for max single target dps fails hard, even more in raids.

watch ICC bosses, how many of them have no adds/additional targets to be hitten? the truth is the "best" spec is the best for both, vithout giving up any of the two.
also, i think the problem isn't the gear or the spec, the problem is people with 5.5k gs (that's the usual average joe level) who thinks since he overgears the content he can just auto attack/wand the mobs to death instead of "wasting" his time using any kind of aoe.
a fresh 80 in full blues who does around 2k dps has my respect, a full icc geared dps pulling barely 3k is a moron who likes to waste my time.

Anonymous said...

Should hybrid healers enter with their dps talents?

I often considered using sacred shield + instant FoL on tank in retri spec/gear. Spriests/moonkins/ele would have an easier time doing this. This would speed up the run the most I reckon.

Biggest prob: You meet a full fury geared/specced warrior who wanted to 'tank'.

Bristal said...

It's rude to post recount in a random 5 man PERIOD because YOU asked to play with ME. You need me and I need you to help finish the meaningless task which we both agreed to.

Now you want to bitch about my abilities or attention to detail which may or may not cost you 45 seconds in a 13 minute run in which we part ways strangers?

Dude, you invited ME over! Sod off!!

Chris said...

I think one reason for this Gevlon is that the meta-game does not support this notion. There is no 'best' AoE spec, as the math has not been done, and modelled for it.

As a rogue, i auto-attack 1 target and spak FoK on the rest. it comes out to be about an even split of damage in most heroics. So what would speccing for AoE entail?

Speccing into frost as a mage for extra blizzard damage probably does not actually make the heroic go faster, whereas everyone having a 15% run speed enhancement (enchant/talent) would.

Another thing that has more of an impact on run time that DPS specs is tank movement. If a tank can fight everything while moving and doesnt stop to confront every pull then your run speed will be decreased dramatically. Are you going to say that a tank that stops and tanks them standing still is tanking 'sub-optimally'?

Sir Nicholai said...

I agree with many other posters that there's no reasaon a "single target boss spec" being wrong for 5 mans, because:
A. As many people have pointed out, raiding specs do provide many AoE abilities, and there aren't 20 AoE points you can pick up, like there are 20 PvP points. Mages are perhaps the only class where a respec would improve AoE significantly.
B. I don't like damage meter posting in heroics because most of the time it's useless bragging, or making fun of someone in blues who's only doing 2k dps (which isn't horrible for blues). I want to get it done, but unless you're posting about a 5-6k gs person doing under 3k dps, you're just wasting my time.
C. Respeccing to be able to kill a boss makes sense.
Respeccing to win a BG makes sense.
Respeccing to do a quick activity slightly faster is not worth it. Because many people's other specs will be heals/tank/pvp, they will have to go to the trainer and spend 50 gold. I don't think it's wise to spend 2 minutes of your time and 50 of your gold, to shave maybe 1 minute off a heroic run, which is more time than many supposed "AoE specs" would save.

I've expect more knowledgeable posts from you Gevlon, I know you have no "obligation" to produce material, but don't waste other people's time with useless questions.

Anonymous said...

It's just not true that single target specs fail at 5mans. Did a heroic today: tanked it on my DK in dps gear/spec (icc25 hm gear+s'mourne) with a guild rogue (icc25 hm geared ass rogue) a guild healer +2 randoms. Due to me always being the 1st in combat and chain pulling with pestilence spam I topped meters (8.2k dps over 2 dungeons) the assassination rogue ( an awful switch/add spec) came second with 7.3k dps even though he was ToT/Fok'ing me on CD and has a pure 1 target spec with build up time. Now one of the 2 random dungeons we got was an ICC5man, so the mobs actually lived for more than 3 seconds but the other was OK where they die instantly, he still did 7.3 over the 2 runs. We killed the Herald in OK in 12 seconds (with 2 random pug dps) at 6666 dps per person, inc healer.

Given that I refuse to spec a tank spec or put on tank gear for a 5 man I really don't see why a raid specced rogue should even think about respeccing.

Kristopher said...

If you are using DPS meters to judge DPS players, then one should have two specs ... trash and a boss spec, in order to consistently top the charts.

This is good. It encourages one to excel.

The player with two specs has an even higher average DPS than a one spec as either a boss or trash killer.

His investment in a second spec ( and possibly gear ) pays off!

Anonymous said...

The problem is not that they "top damage meters on trash", it's that overall linking dps meters for anything is 1) spamming 2) trying to show "I'm better than you" in a shallow way. For example, I was in Icecrown raid with "that mage" who'd post dps meter whenever he was on top. When we wiped on putricide and checked deeper, we saw he didn't move out of goos, he didn't reposition properly, he didn't dps adds. Just tunnel vision boss.

People who spam dps meters in public chat usually think meter > everything, they won't switch targets, won't move, won't cc or interrupt, anything that "might lower their dps".

Just keep the meters for yourself, what do you want to achieve showing off like this? You're better - then you know it and it should be enough.

Anonymous said...

Boils down to necessity in my opinion. You don't need to spec into a AOE spec to complete a 5 man instance at a reasonable time-frame. In fact i bet that a normal "patchwork" spec will preform within 1-5% of a specialized spec.

And as you always say time = money which also means that money = time. My point being, the 50g you spend re-specifying is not worth the time you make up with your new spec. Especially not if you use 2 different specs often and therefore only get to do one or two 5 mans with your AOE spec before you spec back to healing or your PvP spec.

Another point is that you dont need a specialized spec to complete a 5 man. When you fight bosses where the margins between failure and success is smaller then a optimized spec is of great help. That's why don't see therocrafting on 5 man AOE specs, because its not worth the time or necessary.

Squishalot said...

@ Chris: "Are you going to say that a tank that stops and tanks them standing still is tanking 'sub-optimally'?"'

Absolutely. If I have to limit myself to using single-target DPS abilities on 5-man trash because the tank can't hold aggro on a single 3-pull, then yes, the tank is sub-optimal. If the tank can't chain-pull half the mobs to the next boss, then he has room to improve, most definitely.

"I think one reason for this Gevlon is that the meta-game does not support this notion. There is no 'best' AoE spec, as the math has not been done, and modelled for it."

Speak for yourself, you're sounding like a M&S. I've done the math to support why Paladins should take SoC over SoV on trash, and it's blatantly obvious that Mage Frost AoE is superior to Arcane AoE (though I still think there's a question mark over rotation). Just because you've been lazy doesn't mean that others have too.

Anonymous said...

well... i'm a moonkin so i don't really have to care since i pretty much eat the meters by pressing a button once a minute... but the case is that you have to respec and reglyph which costs money, i know a laughable low amount but it's still annoying, you can have two specs but your secondary is often your pvp spec, or a spec for specific fights. If you're still pulling an acceptable amount of dps in your ultimate pve-raid-single-target-dps-of-doom-spec then i don't see the big problem...

Anonymous said...

Why do people abuse those who beat them in a 5-man, instead of accepting that they slacked a bit?

Because they feel like their 'reputation' is at stake in the context, somebody beat them at their own game (being DPS) and they have to come up with something that they feels defends them.

Why is it OK to show up in raid spec in a 5-man?

If you have a raid spec, you're probably raid geared and already boosting a group. Should someone have to pay an extra 50g, despite their gear already giving wipe prevention, and for pick ups no less.

Klepsacovic said...

What is the time lost from not being optimized for AoE compared to the gold cost of constantly respeccing for AoE? For most classes the AoE spec isn't much higher, or doesn't even exist. That puts the gold burden on a smaller group; and I'm not sure how you feel about pressuring a minority group to give up their wealth mostly for the benefit of others.

Let's say the AoE spec saves 2 minutes off the 15 minute run. It costs 50g to get that. The gold per hour is terrible. While it helps 4 others, they are not paying into it. Should the AoE person accept a very expensive gold/hr just to help others?

Enk said...

Have to disagree with this one, Gevlon.

5 mans at this point aren't remotely challenging. And trying to "win the DPS meter" causes all kinds of asinine behavior (pulling additional groups, blasting mobs the tank hasn't tagged yet, lolstorming on the pull, ignoring interrupts and cleanses).

You're also underestimating the effect the tank has on potential group DPS.

Give me a group with a Ret Paladin, Mutilate Rogue, and Affliction Warlock, and, given competent players, I can skew the DPS results how I want as a tank.

Want to screw with the Mut rogue? Wait just long enough for S&D to fall off. Always try to have 2-3 mobs, never more than 4.

Want the Ret to "win"? Pull groups of 3-5 mobs, and move quickly to the next group.

Want the Affliction Lock? Pull 10-20 mobs. Watch his 3.5k DPS (mobs die too quickly between the tank and Ret) go up to 15-20k DPS (lolseed spam). (The Mut rogue will also pull way ahead of the Ret if he knows what he's doing).

Depending on group composition, I'll pull instances differently as a tank, but end up with similar clear speeds.

So should I not come to a heroic as an Affliction lock (one of the usual suspects for poor 5-man DPS)? Or should I just get a tank that knows what he's doing?