Monday, May 17, 2010

Shamelessly stacking the raid

We got it sometimes that we can do the content because we stack the raid with [insert whatever class someone considers OP]. This time we had 2 DKs, 2 paladins, 2 shamans, warrior, mage, druid, rogue. What was the logic behind this HC stacking? These people were online, besides a priest who lagged terribly.

Such no-lifer raid composition always has its results:
We killed him despite someone came up with the great idea to stay together during bone storm (I dead instantly, resurrected, we ran away after). The rogue died due to standing next to the tanks. Again: an ICC boss was killed in blue gear, with bad raid composition and one dead.

On LDW our HC stacking got its drawback: we lacked physical DPS. We had a warrior tank and a rogue. The DKs are just half-physical as the diseases are magical. On the top of that the rogue was mutilate, couldn't switch targets fast. After he retalented combat and equipped a slow main hand axe, his DPS fell to the ground. But he leveled axe skill up to 67 on that try!

Luckily for us a hunter came online, so we could reach P2, despite a death in the first seconds and me wanting to cast frostfire bolt on mbarr procs (was frost all raid before). Next week, Mrs Kel'Thuzzad will be down for sure!

Logs here, tank PoV video here, we used Hellscream's warsong 15%.

As you most probably figured that out, if we want to stop stacking the raid according to "who are online", we need more people, especially warlock, spriest, DPS warrior. But any other is welcomed! Join and be one of those who clear ICC in only blue gear!

42 comments:

Anonymous said...

While some have been saying on comments on this site, and on the wow official boards, that this doesn't prove anything due to higher gear scores compensating for PUGging issues, my feeling is that this is incredible. The goal of this project was to eliminate the stigma of 'you must have this ICC++ uber GS to compete at an ICC level'. On the contrary, if everyone knows what they are doing, and some communication is going on, 3k+DPS and cool heads are all that is needed to see additional end-game raid content.

One suggestion on your next attempt, can you please show a video? This was asked of your shaman(can't remember his/her name) on the EU forums, but it would be beneficial to see the attempt and successful clearing of these bosses in blues.

Thanks and congrats!

Maladroite said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfXLDRCxiYI
:>
I had uploaded another video in higher quality, but for some reason it looks terrible on Youtube.

Andru said...

This will rise some ruckus on the forums, I'm sure.


Lady Kel'Thuzad is a bit harder though.

Magma said...

@Anon
He said they'd show a video if someone who isn't him filmed it. He himself isn't going to waste the time.

smeg said...

how much of the buff did you use? i just finished abusing some noobs who failed marrowgar with max buff and i want to direct them to this post. fingers-crossed for little/no buff!

ardoRic said...

Don't forget to mention our extensive ICC experience.

Someone asked in this week's raid how far everyone had gone into ICC, and the answers ranged from 0 experience to 10/12 hm.

It doesn't matter anyway, since we have to figure out what works best for us on every boss.

Looking forward to wiping on Saurfang next week.

Anonymous said...

Festergut needs both tanks over 2k dps and 5 dps over 5k.

Blood Queen needs everyone over 9k dps average (there is a buff to help though).

How do you purpose to do these fights when a blue geared person cannot go that much dps?

Okrane S. said...

@Gevlon,

The fact that you lack physical DPS is not such a big problem in 10 man.

The caster adds from Lady DW can be DPS-ed down by a magic user before they throw down their magic reflecting shield.

so you have a 10-15 seconds window of opportunity for all the casters in the raid to dps them. Focus those first and when they pop their shields, switch to the melee.

It should be easy.

Anonymous said...

Mad props for proving what I've been saying ever since the whole concept of "Whisp Ach/GS" was adopted as a method of deciding who goes in your group. It's bullshit.

ardoRic said...

I again posted on this in MMO-Champion forums: http://www.mmo-champion.com/raids-dungeons/blue-fire-vs-blue-gear/

@ Okrane

Yeah, we figured that one out. Problem was that on the right side there are two Adherents. And the extra ones were surviving as Reanimated Adherents since one of our physical was dying to Martyrdom.

It's certainly not hard.

Inquisitor said...

Blood DKs are very high %age physical damage - a respec there might have helped.

Nice to see, anyway.

Larísa said...

Way to go! Nice to see that you keep progressing in spite of the challenge. And I'm not talking about the gear, I'm talking about the difficulty in recruiting these days that I believe most guilds are enduring.

Looking forward to see further reports, curious to see how far you may go!

BTW I'm sorry if I've reaad a bit carelessly, but what do you do with the gear that drops? Shard it? Save it in storage in the bank?

ardoRic said...

I click Disenchant for every piece that drops.

Some people take the gear and have non-blue sets for doing other stuff with.

Like someone said on Saturday: I have no progress on the [Epic] achievement, and I intend to keep it that way. (I can't even get full [Superior] since there is no blue Totem above ilvl 150)

Georgi said...

First off, congratulations!
Second - I saw your logs and if I'm looking at the right chart I see that your raid does 15k DPS.
That's nice, but if I calculate right, for Festergut your raid needs (Fester health) / (enrage timer) = DPS, which is 13, 666, 100 / 300 secs ~= 45, 555 DPS, which in turn, means that if you've got 2 VERY good healers + 2 tanks doing above 2k DPS around 7k per DPS member. Though I doubt it, I hope you down it, but if this doesnt happen what follows? perhaps raising the gear level to Ulduar?
Best wishes!
P.S correct me, if my math is wrong.

Ronnie said...

Festergut Health : 9,412,000
Enrage Timer : 5 Minutes = 200 Seconds
DPS(5 Players) : 3000-3500 DPS(I will be gentle and assume that you will ALL be pulling 3500)
Tank DPS(2 Players) : 1500 DPS
Total DPS : (5 * 3500) + (2 * 1500 ) = 20,500 DPS
Total Damage at Enrage : 20500 x 300 = 6,150,000 Damage
Missing Health at Enrage : 9412000 - 6,150,000 = 3,262,000 Damage
Granted this is with the 15% Buff. Assuming that you this project hasn’t gone down the drain by the time the buff get increased to 30%(!!!) We’re looking at another 15% dmg increase.
DPS Needed to Reach Enrage Timer : 31,374 DPS
Total DPS : ((5 * 3500) + (2 * 1500 ))*1.15 : 23,575 DPS
DPS Missing even with the 30% Buff : 31374 – 23575 = 7799 DPS

So here’s what I don’t get. You claim to be rational above all else. How is it that, with no improvements in your gear, you intend to kill Festergut ? On top of that I think that I’m being VERY kind by giving your raiders an average DPS of 3500 seing as most of you are usually sitting at 2500. But the number generated from an average dps of 2800 were simply too sad to process.

Backthief said...

15% buff makes Ulduar harder than ICC.

Christian said...

Mind if I share that movie on tankspot?

Gevlon said...

@Festergut people: we cross the bridge when we get there (we have a plan)

@Backtief: indeed

@Christian: all material are free to share

Weapon X said...

Well done, I would be interested to see how the blue gear lock does... Have you raided with a lock in blues?

I'm thinking they can't go over 1800 dps without epics.

Jeanie said...

Is it possible to share your plan on Festergut now? I'm really curious on how you're going to work that out with all the limitation you've got.

jan said...

Congratulations on Marrowgar, but that one almost we all saw coming (I posted it last week on this forum).
I have checked your logs, especially the last one when you "beat" phase one (with three people dead).
What your group could have done better is that the DPS DK should have gone Blood and be on adds instead on Boss. Also hunter should have respecced to MM if you had issues with physical damage. I know both specs would be lower DPS (at least on that gear level for hunter) but on this gear level the DPS decrease is not dramatic.
The shammy died because of DnD... well you cant afford that :)
Then your tank got hit by 25K in just one second when the Deformed add was there - you will just have to pray this doesnt happen - or tank needs to blow his CDs when Deformed add is there. Or it was simply because your healer died just a moment earlier.
And also it looks like the rogue overaggroed tank when nuking adherent. Hard to tell from here if it was tank´s or rogue´s fault. These are things that you can improve.
What you will have BIG BIG BIG problems with - after successfully getting to phase 2 - and that is Enrage timer sitting at 10 minutes.
I know your rogue died at the beginning and but even with him you had 15% time left and DW was at 98% health (47% actually). So if your raid can produce 40% more DPS (???) and sit on 20K in phase 2, then you will need 2:30 to kill her. That means you will absolutely HAVE to interrupt every single Frostbolt volley and you cant afford a single one Vengeful shade explosion.

Good luck :)

Manuel P Pacheco said...

As I said in MMO champion, they are not listening, or reading, and certainly the do not want to understand. But I am enjoying it.

Regarding the ongoing ICC, I am afraid you will hit your wall in festergut (at least with 15% buff), and potentially during the "mini enrage" in Saurfang.

As someone said, if you can not kill the adds in Deathwishper, your raiders need to be quicker.

Maladroite said...

Guys and girls, please don't assume that our Marrowgar dps is our average dps. It's actually pretty low. We ran with 4 healers and 4 dps, one of which was dead for over half the fight, and another with a sub-optimal talent spec (Koltas went frost to give replenishment buff, he's normally arcane). It's also not a "stand and nuke boss" fight.

We'll deal with the Festergut fight when we get there. Nice to see that people expect us to get to him though.

Anonymous said...

Well done, I hope to see Deathwisper dead next weekend :-)

I guess the strategy for Festergut involves plate-DDs popping cooldowns to get a couple stacks of Gastric Bloat. Perhaps a rogue but I doubt he can be healed through it due to dimitri ritörn on dodge ;)

Frederick said...

@Jan

>>Then your tank got hit by 25K in just one second when the Deformed add was there - you will just have to pray this doesnt happen - or tank needs to blow his CDs when Deformed add is there.<<

Erm..... I am extremely confused by this statement. Surely all that the tank actually needs to do is *kite* the deformed add - this is certainly the way it is in 25 man, and I would imagine that taking a hit in 10 man from a deformed fanatic is a *very* bad thing - one way to do it is to trade taunts to keep him wandering back and forth while the ranged DPS kill him.

Brian said...

Locks are impossible. I have a poorly geared lock and a poorly geared mage, and I do literally twice the dps on the mage.

ardoRic said...

Don't make math based on our "switch target/move around" DPS for a stand still fight.

I'm pretty sure all our DPS will be better on LDW's P2 and Festergut than it was on LDW's P1.

Also, paraphrasing, we'll worry about enrage timers when we die to them.

Norte said...

What are the rules for joining Undergeared? Do I have to have roll a new class I'm unfamiliar with or would I be allowed to transfer my existing 80 and gear down for it?

Newton said...

@Weapon - My blue geared Lock for the Undergeared project on US side easily puts out 2k dps in 5 man heroics. Without food or flask buffs and usually only one of mage/pally/druid buffs plus self buffs (spellstone).


There's blue, and then there's 'twinked' blue. We capped ourselves at blue, but that doesn't mean we run around unenchanted/ungemmed. My lock has 1800-1900 SP, +10% hit unbuffed.

Brian said...

My lock and mage are fully enchanted/gemmed as well. My lock puts out about 2k dps in heroics, my (arcane) mage around 3500 (both on 5 man heroic bosses). Both are geared poorly (each with a couple i200 epics, several sub-i200 blues, and a green or two)

Sven said...

Congratulations Gevlon & all of Undergeared.

Great choice of music on the video, too!

Paulius said...

Well, Koltas usually died because of my fault - I had a terrible reaction time that evening, my talent spec was changed to get some more health and needs to be thought over for ICC because of no dodge. The new spec will increase my dps too I think. Anyway, as we tried LDW we got better and better with everey try and got to the phase 2 in the las wipe. Next week, she WILL die. If we have enough people online that is...

Lyssander, blue tank of the Undergeared.

Hugmenot said...

First, congratulations on the kill!

Now, if I can make a suggestion on Lady Deathwhipser. If one of the tank is a warrior, he or she can put vigilance on the other tank, and spam taunt fanatics from a distance without ever getting hit.

latusthegoat said...

For those of you whining about warlock dps, I stripped down to completely naked + fishing rod in a 25man VoA once. I pulled between 1.5 and 2.1k dps. Granted, that's with a lot of buffs that won't be present in a 10man, but stop saying things like "I don't think a blue geared lock can do more than 1.8k".

If you can't pull more than 1.8k as a warlock in blue gear, it means you're bad at playing the class.

Song7 said...

To Quote "Also, paraphrasing, we'll worry about enrage timers when we die to them."

Gevlon, reading your own and your guild-mates comments it sure looks like you have a good group of smart players. I fully expect the blue bunch to down Fester.

Khaas said...

Great work Gevlon and company, keep it up!

Terra said...

@Song

I fully expect them to die, and then never speak of this again. Or failing that, make some sort of logic pole-vault that clearing the first wing dictates victory over the entire expansion.

God help you when you get to Saurfang, let alone Fester.

Armond said...

I don't think Festergut is possible in blue gear, but then I didn't think Marrowgar was possible in blue gear and it happened. I'm intrigued as to this plan.

ardoRic said...

@Terra

It doesn't matter how far we get, from now on. I already see this project as a success.

Anyways, I'm glad everyone has so much trust in our tanks and healers that they no longer believe they'll be completely rotflowned by Fester. Now everyone's making math about enrage timers.

wilson said...

@ardoRic-

If it feels like a success to you, then rock on. Gevlon, on the other hand, has set the goalposts at killing Arthas.

It's not that we number-crunchers have confidence in your tanks and healers, it's that there are a lot of unknowns that make modeling their performance in advance with any accuracy impossible. DPS on Festergut is a much less uncertain calculation. These numbers say that more dps is needed than has been present in any previous boss fight, based on the logs. My doubt in the feasibility of this project has always been based on this. If that damage can be found somewhere, then that will be interesting.

Anonymous said...

honestly? People think blue locks are that bad? With my poor skill at the class and a grand total of 2 epics (and non-enchanted blues) I manage 3,8k on 25m. Meaning a blue geared/twinked lock with skill can easily beat 3,5k on 10m.

Tom said...

Hi. I was just wondering how would one go about joining the Undergeared guild?

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