Greedy Goblin

Monday, March 15, 2010

1000G and more help

I got lot of comments to my opening post on helping the "beginner" and the poor. There are two kind of disagreement comments, the first says that without help the "poor" has no chance to elevate. The other kind of comment, "helping is good for the society as a whole" will be addressed tomorrow.

At first let me give you an undergeared update: on Saturday we killed Kologarn and Auraya. 2 bosses. Last time we 2-shotted everything we attacked. What happened? Well, the logs would tell it if combat logging wouldn't stop when you relog. All that left from that raid is this overall damage meter:

The three lowest are tanks. 3 tanks? Since no one else were online, we had to take 3 tanks. We also had to take two DPS who were not promoted to raiders before. There were no others online. The mage did great job. The hunter... well, you have eyes. We had no replenishment, so I had to go frost, that explains my DPS. 3 tanks, only 2 healers, questionable DPS, what can it be any worse? Yes, if we get high latency! And that's exactly that made us abandon Thorim. So, despite the poor results, I was pretty satisfied with our performance, especially if I compare it to last week's (when we couldn't raid). The rerun times were spent with theorycrafting, figuring out, how can we do it with the very limited resources we have. There was no blaming, "u suck" or anything like it.

The hunter's gear wasn't terrible, average 189, but lacked enchants. I relogged during the raid (and forgot to restart the log) to enchant him up. The next day we met and I provided him JC material and gems to replace the problematic gems, craft trinket, and my GF practiced about an hour with him at the dummy. The result was stunning. The hunter who damaged way below me the day before on frost spec, damaged equal to me on arcane this day.

Did I became a "freindly heplfull peep" to spend about 500G materials to someone else's gear and an hour work (+ cost of GF's time) to perfect his rotation? And what about the 1000G that every raider gets? Or the 100 that every undergeared recruit gets on lvl 10? Or the 20G that I provide to the ganking lowbies?

I help them because I need them to my projects. Of course I could just kick the "n00b" hunter - and try to 9-man Ulduar. Of course I could just tell the participants of the projects to "go and farm your gold" and wait for days until they do it. It's more benefit to me to spend my own resources on them, than miss their performance.

I doubt if I'm the only person in the world who have projects running. Every businessmen who have a company need competent employees. They are much better off if they invest into people (help them) then just let them suffer. Just like I'm better off with raiders who concentrate on raiding than getting gold, they are better off with skilled workers than illiterate peons. The most obvious example is the Army that pays for the college of the soldiers. It's not charity, it's investment, they get a skilled officer instead of another grunt.

Why can't the government do the same, invest into all people? Because the government have no way to make sure the investment goes good way. What if someone just wastes the help? How to decide who gets help and who doesn't?

At first, I am much more able to determine the skill of a blue geared raider then some "government". I do it myself, I research it, I'm more experienced than most people. This is my field of expertise.

Secondly if I'm stupid and help an idiot, I hurt only myself. I waste my own gold. Not yours. At the same time, corruption is impossible here. The M&S can't bribe me to give him gold. On the other hand the taxpayer's money is always managed by some bureaucrat(s). He can be bribed with money, or by votes or can be influenced with leftist ideas to waste the taxpayer's money.

So in a goblinish world the poor would not be without help. Their employers would help them, not because of goodness, but for profit. Oh, you saw lot of people who got no help from their employer? Are you sure they deserved help? What if the employer just figured out that they should be kicked and not helped, since the problem is not lack of education but lack of motivation or brain?


Ganking update: 130 accounts and of course recruiting more. We are already 25-30% of the online alliance population, let's make it higher!


Anonymous said...

In regards to your... "Did i waste my time and my GF's time on some M&S"... I think the answer is no... If you had of spent the cash on getting him equipped properly and working with him for an hour to have him doing 10% more damage (that equal to the difference in the equipment you bought) then yes but his usefulness is now up to your in the dps side, who knows some more help and he maybe able to cc and dps ?!?... The difference is he wants to learn, there is no "i am l33t cause i ra1d w1th g3vZ" you told him he was wrong and learnt from your experience. I get the hint from your no BS attitude if he wasn't improving you would of dumped him faster than a fat kid tosses an empty candy bar wrapper...

Anonymous said...

"I help them because I need them to my projects."

Well, THAT is exactly why we help people, aware or not.
Yes, we can trick ourself when doing charity that the money/help we give will serve us in some way or anothere. But we are the most social species on earth. The combination of our large brain(to carry all that knowledge) and our social character made us evolve to where we stand at this point.

Btw, don't forget that without "unefficient" Free(can u imagine that ?) government's basic education and social help (that's what you say, and what nobility/aristocracy in last centuries said), you would have been VERY probably working 24/24 7/7 in some mine/farm as the 95% of the population did it before.

P.S.: Don't take it personally, but i find it funny(although not pointless!) when you talk about all this wasted help from government and other people while high majority of the highly educated people and profossors insist on it.

Anonymous said...

So, what's the average kill ratio in the ganking project (# kills / # deaths in world PVP, per person)? Or have you not started tracking this yet?

Samus said...

Gevlon, I think you need to define "help" a little better. Perhaps you could list out the government services that you think should and shouldn't be provided to everyone (including M&S).

I'm guessing you're in favor of police and firefighters, and against welfare. What else?

Anonymous said...

To your logging problem. There exists addon called 'loggerhead'. Our guild combat logger uses it. It starts your combat log when you enter raid instance and turn it off when you leave. Try it I think it can help you.

Tazar from undergeared.

Emancro said...

Hey, I know that my DPS was crap, but I just logged on to do my JC daily. I was a little unfocused as I was really hungry(bad excuse, but having eaten improves my performance). I was BM spec(higher DPS on trashmobs for HCs) and I had only gotten a few uncommon gems into my gear because I was planning on replace the items with sockets.

Jana said...

Yes, there is difference between helping and investing.
Any decent employer would invest into already performing employees Masters or PhD education in exchange for the 5-10 years contract with the employee.

Therefore you and your GF did not actually help the hunter. You invested into him.

Anonymous said...

I have a question about the gear you guys use. If only blue gear can be used does that mean only blue gems and enchants can be used only? i dont think it would be fair to use epic gems and enchants on blue gear then call it undergeared.

The Gnome of Zurich said...

The rules say no epic enchants or gems.

That said, considering how easy it is to get lvl 226+ gear, using epic gems and enchants would hardly make us not "undergeared" compared to the rest of the playing population.

Ocenale said...

I do believe you can look up the rules of Undergeared somewhere on this blog. Epic Gems and Abyss Crystal enchants are out, iirc.

Klepsacovic said...

Employers do often invest in their employees, but often there is too much risk involved. Let's say they pay for a one year night class which costs $1000 and it will make them $500 more productive every year. That employee may instead just go off somewhere else to get paid $250 more and split the profitability with their new employer. This means that the first employer to train is taking a big gamble while the second one gets all the benefit.

There aren't many ways to get around this. You could have social employees who feel loyalty. You could write a contract that forces them to work (illegal) or which doesn't allow them to work elsewhere (legal); but strings like that discourage them from taking the offer and reduce morale. Or the last option is for all employers to train employees and figure they'll make up lost workers by getting new ones from other companies, but all it takes is the one place which doesn't train and saves the money and retains employees to disrupt it all.

Think about it another way: Would you give 1000g to someone who had a free server transfer ready with an invite to a top guild with a generous guild bank?

Emancro said...

It wasn't like you had to help me, simply pointing out to me that going SV would increase the raid DPS(by letting you go arcane and by me being SV).
I would have read up on SV(which I have done now) and I would've figured it out by myself(which I am completely capable of) where to put my talents and what gems to use.
As Jana said, it is more like investing in me than "helping" me as helping(atleast to me) is considered giving someone the answer to an equation, whereas investing would be teaching someone how to solve it on their own.

haylie said...

A few suggestions for Emancro (your hunter).

The biggest thing holding you back right now is hit rating. 158 is very, very low. Of course hit cap with 0/3 Focused Aim would be ideal, but since blue gear has low amounts of hit rating that might be difficult to obtain. Here's a list of hit rating values you need to be capped depending on your points into FA:

0/3 FA: 263 hit
1/3 FA: 230 hit
2/3 FA: 197 hit
3/3 FA: 164 hit

Where you stand right now, I'd definitely recommend you spec out of Improved Aspect of the Hawk by 2 points and put them into focused aim instead. Either that, or gem for full hit rating, which I wouldn't recommend. Instead, I'm going to advise you to gem for full agility. Put a prismatic gem ( into one socket, which is enough to activate your meta gem, then gem for 16 agi gems (and the 34 agi dragon's eyes, I understand they are allowed). Don't worry about socket bonuses, the extra agility makes up for that by far.

One last thing, I see you already have engineering. Maybe level it up for the epic helm (pretty sure that one is allowed)? Another reason you might wanna level it is for the enchants and ammo. You might also wanna ask Gevlon if the epic ammo is allowed. If it is, I definitely recommend you get it for the big DPS boost, even if you're not engineer (should be fairly cheap on AH nowadays).

And remember, if you're unsure about your gear and/or spec, you could always plug it in into the EJ spreadsheet and see the results. I'm not saying it's 100% accurate, but a good mathematical approximation of your DPS is always welcomed as a second "opinion".

Mikomi said...

I'd like to apologise to mikoto and triev for not showing up on that saturdays raid but unfortunately my laptop broke a few days before and i'm still waiting on a new one.

Hopefuly it'll be here by next saturday if not i might not be able to attend that run either, sorry again for not showing.


Anonymous said...

@ Anonymous#2: Get the facts, our "big" brain is not our power source. Elephant got our brain in XXL, Some species of dogs got an bigger analogy of brain:body than us. Our difference from the rest of the animal kingdom is not a matter of quantity, it's matter of quality. They got insticts, we got logic. Our sheer logic prevents us from acts by motivating sentiments, which usually are completely wrong or unjustified. If you let your logic be corrupted by your feeling you start making mistakes. Though your logic may guide you many times in helping people, simply due to the conception " we are better than i" which many times is right.

Now, the money you are mindlessly paying to your respective goverment go : 45% someone greedy politician, 15% someone greedy businessman who got a friend politician, 25% army, and the rest 15% is divided among the "good" stuff. You are not helping our society, you are just helping feeding the gap between poor and rich people. You can't help no more your society through goverments, sorry.

Highly educated people you are referring to are either smart cunning people who do know the problem and benefit from it, or non-existent. High educated people know that the majority of their taxes go wasted.

Social help is a construct of the capitalistic system to guarantee it's greediness will never "official" strike the poors. Which is, of course, happening, whether the poor ones are smart or not, whether they deserve a chance or not.

Anonymous said...

Gevlon dont you want to rethink the recruitment for characters above 70lvl to your PvP guild? Lets say when you get few 80ies on your own (say 3) then allow it? I mean waiting for 20 players to get to 80lvl, it will take forever while people who rushed it and are already 80 could use reinforcements. I have my priest locked and loaded for transfer and faction change.

Emancro said...

@haylie; I know my hit is low, I'm working on it. It's just that the 3 of the 4 items I'm missing has loads of hit.

On a side note; Gevlon remember that the 500g you spent on me was subtracted from the 1000g.

Khaas said...

You point out something I've encountered more than once in my own guild. We're a somewhat casual, in that we only raid twice per week for 4 hours at a time. But when we do raid, we're serious about it. That said, we've attracted some people who just weren't performing as well as they could. And in some cases, they were holding us back.

In my own mind, it's in my logical self-interest to help these people along (to a point). Some people, as the case with the Hunter you mention only need a bit of guidance and attention. Others, well... let's just say you can't fix stupid.

Sometimes it's not the easiest distinction to make (ignorant vs stupid) but it IS an important distinction. One who is ignorant of a better way is not necessarily a mouth breathing imbecile. And when you're raiding with a group of people, you want to make the best of the time you have (especially when your time is at a premium as ours is), essentially you don't want to waste anyone's time by bringing along a bad player.

So, work with what you have. Team building is just as important in business as understanding investment strategies. So, in the end I think you made a perfectly logical business (raiding) decision in this case. People in general "can" learn, it's just a question of will they, and is it worth your time.

P.S. I'm going to have to second the a fore mentioned Loggerhead addon, we use it as well and it works beautifully.

Strutt@kil'jadean said...

@haylie, Everything is good advice except for the gems, please take into consideration the socket bonuses, Putting in a +6agi & +6crit, with a socket bonus of 4 agi or more will yeild more DPS than just putting a 16 agi gem in there, yes even for Agi hungry SV hunters.

Also Emancro, goto same spreadsheet but easier to use.

Anonymous said...

a really good link to fix your latency issues. It took my latency from 180 to about 80 and my dps went up a nice bit from it.