Greedy Goblin

Sunday, January 24, 2010

Mean guys of the week

Anti got a great offer. Too bad he could count. And even worse he wasn't nice enough to ignore the facts for "being nice":

Rob found this sad link. Someone made a huge effort to write a priest guide... that sucked bad, as practically all the commenters added.

Ouch. Just ouch. Luckily the two healer candidates didn't sugar-coated their opinion about this fine specimen of stupidity (by Matthew):

Elliot sent an evidence that it's hard to be mean sometimes. The DPS who damage less than the tank has the tendency to defend each other:

Mike's story is much happier:

Writing an SMS during bossfight can make your groupmates mean. And while I suggest that the healer shall rez people, it doesn't apply to those whose corpse is in the middle of the Skadi trash (by Mayuren):


Anonymous said...

Very nice collection this time. I wa seeing this section going down but I'm liking it a lot now :)
The SS with the 3 dps under the tank was hilarious. And that 800 dps dude saying dps was good made me laugh :P

Next would probably be the Mage. I wish some groups woul be thy mature sometimes an insta kick people when they see their errors. Great work can't wait for more of these :)

Anonymous said...

The tank is the moron in that third one, he has more than enough dps in that group for a clean boss kill without wasting time booting people. He should have just left if the group didn't want to kick the guy.

It also annoys me when paladin tanks complain that anyone isn't doing as much damage as they are. They're overpowered at the moment, and easy to put up high numbers with, especially when there are large numbers of mobs around and they are the first in (as the tank).

This idea of 'lol dps doing less damage than the tank' was based on warrior damage from way back, when tanks really did much worse dps. If a palatank is pulling 3k, it's still fine for a new dps or a class that needs time to ramp up to be doing less.

Anonymous said...

Hum First Texting while driving kills people and now texting while playing.... this dumb kids gonna grow up to be a train operator so he can take 20 ppl with him when he goes....

Anonymous said...

Anon: Learn to count. That 800 dps guy was the healer.

Patrick said...

Yet the dps dont have an excuse to do under 2k dps which is a utter disgrace. 2k dps is the norm for people. Any green/blue geared lvl 80 should be able to pull 2k dps.
I do agree with the old tank theory tough and it would have gone much faster yet even if paladins are op its not an excuse for a measle 1k dps...

Zeran said...

I have to agree, hustle is the moron based on the evidence we have (we don't know what caused the wipe for instance). Especially when you take in to account that I have cleared that dungeon with no one doing more than 2k dps (pre-naxx gear).

Personally, I hope they let the tank leave as they get first crack at a new tank,perhaps one that's not afraid of helping people gear up and learn.

Kaaterina said...

Sorry Spinksville, you're wrong.

You can get annoyed about paladin tanks all you like. Fine, we do 2.9k DpS in T9 equivalent gear in heroics.

This does not excuse DKs doing 1.1k. I repeat: ONE THOUSAND ONE HUNDRED DPS. Let's go to his armory shall we?

Surprising. 3 pieces of T9. He's just undergeared amirite?

"If a palatank is pulling 3k, it's still fine for a new dps or a class that needs time to ramp up to be doing less."

Less means 2.5k DpS. Less means 2k DpS.

Less is not 1.1k DpS, that is idiocy combined with retardation and suckiness. It's typical halfarsery that you come to expect from DpS in heroics.

I applaud that tank for standing up to them. He, like many other tanks (including me), are tired of boosting people in heroics. We haven't learned to play our class just to have Sucky McDK do 1.1k DpS in heroics in tier 9.

How about stopping defending idiots?

Kaaterina-Twilight's Hammer.

Jeanie said...

The tank is the moron in that third one, he has more than enough dps in that group for a clean boss kill without wasting time booting people. He should have just left if the group didn't want to kick the guy.

@spinksville: First,it would be pretty dumb to quit the group (it's pretty safe to assume on the last boss), you waste your time for no compensation, and I think the tank know well that he his group could 4men the boss without the dk.
About the dk, it's not just about doing less dps than the tank. The dk is doing a whooping 1100 dps, which makes him a moron regardless of the fight being boss fight or aoe trash. In fact, the mage 2k2 dps is pretty much borderline on the moronic scale too. However, even without recount, the pary chat is pretty much enough to qualify them both as "morons".

Anonymous said...

Yeah, I have to agree that the paladin tank was fail in the third example. The DK's DPS was low but he immediately explained why and at least in the beginning was civil about it. The paladin tank was just being an elitist douche. We all know what random pugs are like now. Run through the instance at full speed blasting away as fast as possible and try and keep up with the tank. For someone with a toon that they are relatively unfamilar with, and with a highly geared tank, (and a paladin at that), they will have a hard time dpsing on trash pulls.

At the end of the day, if the mobs are dying, (and that recount chart lists more than enough dps to cover a heroic run), then a lower dps can be carried as long as they are not being a douche. If the low dps is however your typical, "lolz - i has epixs" who wanders into patches of fire or is doing idiot things like pulling mobs, then vote kick him without delay.

Daniel said...

Spinks - with all due respect he was attacking the DK not the mage which did acceptable the damage. The DK did 400 more DPS then the bored tree that healed him. And dks have awesome aoe - if it was a kitty it may be understandable that trash dies too fast for him. I have simple benchmark in heroics - 700 DPS per 1K gearscore. You arrive at 80 with leveling greens and questing blues at around 2k GS - just dropping dead and decays and bloodboling shall yield him more DPS then the epic 1.1k

Dmitry said...

Spinksville, with all due respect, I beg to differ.

Firstly, as a Paladin tank on my main since late TBC, I can assure you that a) even at those times long past, tankadin damage was quite high compared to other tanking classes, and b) paladins are NOT overpowered in terms of damage right now, if anything, we had a much better time to show off our damage in 5-mans back in late 3.0 and the beginning of 3.1. DPS were geared 213-226 at those times (I hope you know that DPS classes scale much better in terms of actual damage than tanking classes do), and we took a couple of damage nerfs since then.

Secondly, and more importantly, although everything I mentioned above is true, tankadin damage has NEVER been so high that a DPS class would not be able to surpass it. That can only be the case if a) the tank's gear is very good, and the DPS's gear is very bad; b) the DPS is a useless moron. (Yes, I wrote "useless moron", this is Greedy Goblin and this is how we talk things here.) :p

If you have been following Gevlon's posts, you should know that any damage dealer guy doing below 1.5k DPS is a moron, no-go. While I, as a tank, cannot influence the number of morons in WoW, I can and will bash them as hard as I can, so maybe some realize something is wrong with them.

Kaaterina said...

The 'oh poor DK iz newbieeee' excuse lasts about for 30 secs, the time required to go to his armory page and see that he has 3/5 T9 and 'the Patient' Title.

I might sympathize with a newbie, but he's not a newbie, he's an halfarsed idiot.

Kaaterina said...

Also, the first quote from the DK.

"Omg lmao wanna bet it won't be a problem"

What a polite, non-confrontational and diplomatic phrase.

Anonymous said...

@ Spinksville:
why would a healer be dpsing? If the dps from the dk were high enough he wouldn't have to do so. Now that I think about it they're both morons to a certain extent:
DK for that unnacceptably low dps, he should read changes with his class if he hadn't played. Saying I haven't played my class in a month so I can only do 1.1k with t9...
Pala tough should have just kept going but if he did we would ms up with more people like that dk doing 1.1k dps in epics

Vinnz said...

That paladin (still in 3rd one) cheats: He's not mean, he just wants to be famous. I guess he prepared the theatrical sentence 'let's play ...', just to have a screenshot to send to Gevlon's blog.

Anonymous said...

"Also, the first quote from the DK.

"Omg lmao wanna bet it won't be a problem"

What a polite, non-confrontational and diplomatic phrase."

Hmm ... I missed that. And tier 9 gear? I might have to reconsider my position on this one.

Anonymous said...

Why do people complain about boosting people in heroics...people refuse to realize that heroics is for gearing and getting better gear, also learning how to play your class with a group, learning rotations to make them a better player, not for bitches with higher gear to complain about under geared people "who arent cutting it". Stop whinning, get your badges and move on. If you have a problem with the low dps dont be a douche and maybe give them some tips.

Halmotors said...

While I agree that the DK doing low DPS is pretty horrid, in the screenshot it looks like they're in Gundrak, and on Moorabi. At this point, it's NOT very long to finish the dungeon. If you ignore Eck (which a lot of people do for some reason), then it's even shorter. If they're that deep into the dungeon, shouldn't the tank have noticed the lackluster DPS long ago? I know the first thing I notice is low DPS as the tank.

Having an 80 paladin tank, I know I out-DPS some of the DPS sometimes. Unless they're doing sub-1.5-2k DPS though, I don't take much notice of it. The class just simply puts out more DPS than others. Same thing with druid tanks; I've seen well-geared druid tanks pump out 3k+ in heroics.

As to why the healer was DPS'ing...I'm guessing you guys haven't healed a good paladin tank before, or at least not a geared one. They take very little damage, and what they do take is pretty even and predictable. Healing heroics is pretty boring, for the most part. Might as well keep yourself entertained.

Anonymous said...

I cannot believe people are defending that dk and saying the tank is the moron. 1.1k dps is a complete joke at that level. If he doesn't know how to play his class for whatever reason, he should be practicing rotations on dummies or running normals, not expecting to get carried along in HCs.
Seriously, the only reason I can think of that anyone would defend him, is if they also are total morons with similar dps.

Anonymous said...

"Why do people complain about boosting people in heroics..."

Maybe because running HCs is a team effort. You don't want to pull your weight and get boosted fair enough, get some guildies or friends to boost you. Don't expect complete strangers to do it for you for free without even asking first.
And from what I seen no one was complaining about the dk being under geared, they were complaining about him under performing. There's a big difference.

Entrak said...

Anyone doing sub 2k dps at 80 classifies as a moron and a slacker who just leeches on the other players.

My druid for the undergeared project is now at 67 and is doing 800-1000 dps. And that's with rather crappy gear and me not trying to do great dps.

Todays post was a good one, it contained all of the idiots you encounter on a normal day.

Anonymous said...

"why would a healer be dpsing? "

Because he was bored. This happens when you have an overgeared tank and an easy heroic.

Iiene of Kul Tiras said...

So... Hustle, the elitist asshole Paladin tank, who was ROFLstomping an easy heroic... DIed on the final boss because the group wouldn't kick a 1100 DPS DK? What kind of asshole does that?

Drama Queen! Drama Queen! Make way for the Drama Queen!

Can she run? Oh hell Yeah! She's got both points in Pursuit of Justice!

Can she fight? Listen bub.. She's talented in Seal of Command.

If you don't do what she wants, she'll DI on the boss.

Hey hey! There goes the Drama Queen!
(Ok, that doesn't rhyme, sue me.)

Ok, 1100 dps is really low. Especially for a DK (Albeit one who's been grinding heroics so fast, he hasn't had time to enchant or gem the new gear.) I'm not making excuses for the DK. I'm dressing down the elitist asshole of a tank for DIing on a boss fight because she didn't get her way.

Where's the fire? 9K total DPS not good enough for a heroic? Perhaps Hustle should focus more on downing Festergut (Looks like their guild can't get past him on 10 man yet) than adding drama to easy heroics.

And, to clarify the errors of the other posters: It was the healer doing 800 dps who said the DPS was fine, not the DK.

I also gotta wonder why a Paladin Tank has the Seal of Command talent. Perhaps this is why they can't get past Festergut.

Cause you know... all normal content is so trivial even people in blues can defeat it. I would think an elite e-peener like Hustle would have no problem.

For the record: My guild is currently stuck on Rotface (10 man normal) and we sure as hell aren't wearing blues or totally suck. It's a tough fight to learn, and we can't do it the Gevlon way (Pay others to learn it, then get boosted by them)

Kaaterina said...


I'm sorry to say, you have about no clue about what seal does.

Maybe it's time for you to read the patch notes, especially the note about SoC affecting not only one target, but 3, which makes it the seal of choice on trash pack fights that last less than 30 secs (time needed to apply 5 vengeance on 3 mobs using HotR), and where you do not need the added expertise. (Which, incidentally would be all the trash packs in heroics.)

So, maybe, next time you should get a dose of L2P before running your mouth.

Wait, I'm not done ranting.

Devil's advocate mode on. Even admitting that the point put in SoC was subpar (which is not), where would you put it? Conviction, Crusade, SoTP or Reckoning. Oh gee, look at that, a 2% damage increase at best.(there's no survival talents left that could be taken instead). That means she'd do about.... 58 more DpS. YAY LET'S TOTALLY BASH THE PALADIN TANK FOR DOING 2900 DPS INSTEAD OF 2958 DPS cause that totally is out of order, unlike the DK that did 1.1k which was PERFECTLY fine.

Kaaterina- Twilight's Hammer

Iiene of Kul Tiras said...


I was trashing the tank for DIing on a boss fight. A trivial one at that.

Your comments are contradictory:

"which makes it the seal of choice on trash pack fights that last less than 30 secs"

"where would you put it? Conviction, Crusade, SoTP or Reckoning. Oh gee, look at that, a 2% damage increase at best."

Conviction would be my choice. Others might choose 2 points in Conviction and 3 in Crusade. Your comments are contradictory because they advocate sacrificing a tiny advantage in the fight that might actually matter (against a hard boss) for a tiny advantage in fights you could stomp with impunity (trash groups in heroics)

It makes no sense to make gear or talent selections favoring trivial fights.

HueHue said...

Here's some goblin wisdom for y'all-
Where's the profit to the tank in pitching a fit when (s)he did? So the loser moron dk dps was slacking? Put'em on ignore, get your badges, and never have to deal with him again. Why waste money ('cause Time is Money, friend) pitching a bitch?

Kaaterina said...

Umm. Yes, you take one point out of SoC and put 3 points into conviction and 2 into crusade.

Right, you run along and do just that.

There's lots of places where a raid can go wrong, and theorycrafting around 2% of one tank's damage is the proverbial clutching at straws.

The Gnome of Zurich said...

I tend to agree that it's not worth booting people for low dps, even if they are really bad.

I boot people (or leave if the vote goes the wrong way) in a second for stupid dps tricks though (body pulls messing with LoS pulls, pulling aggro when they can't outdps me by focusing on a non-skull mob and then complaining about my tanking, etc.).

But it's so not worth trying to boot somebody just because their numbers are low, unless the healer is bad or the tank is undergeared and you actually need appropriate dps.

Oh, and to those wondering about the healer dpsing, old heroics with tanks in full 226+ gear are boring as hell. Even with a blue tank, my tree (in mostly naxx/valor epics) generally pops out and does some dps, and not an uber healer skillwise. With somebody in full 232+ tanking , I'd be sleepwalking if I didn't dps.

zahorijs said...

Maybe it made him feel better and he gain recreational value, which could cost more then gold lost.

Tree said...

I really don't see how any of these quallify as "mean" tbh. Nothing you wouldn't expect to see in a pug with people performing that badly. Nothing cruel or malicious, just honest criticism.

Dave said...

recount is broke if it's not updated. I got booted from a pug on my rug for having 800 deeps on the meter a bitter hunter posted...After checking my own Skada, I was putting out 2.2k.

I don't trust a m&s's recount.

Anonymous said...

I'm playing a DK in the US undergeared group. At level 72 I would do 1.1k DPS in mostly outland blues/quest greens.

My rotation wasn't even a complex well-timed and well-executed system. It consisted of:

- Apply diseases
- Pestilence
- Press Heart Strike and Death Strike

I didn't even put DnD down because the tank said it made picking up mobs a little harder (which it was, since he was a warrior).

That simple rotation was enough to get me to 1.1k DPS at level 72 in your average run of the mill levelling gear. This DK has pieces of tier 9 and is 8 levels ahead of me and struggles to match that?

There is no way that he is anything but lazy and/or stupid.

What else irks me is Death Knights who complain that they "haven't been playing their class long" and that somehow excuses them for doing laughable DPS. I've never played a melee dps class before undergeared but by the time I left the DK starting area I already knew the rotation listed above would provide the best dps. Its really not hard to work out when almost every damaging ability quite literally says "does more damage per disease on the target".

Bad DKs aside, as Iiene mentioned the tank was just being a drama queen or fishing for a screenshot to send to Gevlon. If someone is under performing you should either offer tips or ignore it until the queue cooldown expires at which point you can leave if nothing has improved. There's no need to chuck a tantrum at the last boss.

Tribune said...

Yeah, I'm surprised you listed that 3rd one Gevlon.

Considering you were all for rezzing slack asses a few weeks ago, how is this a good way to spend your time?

Drama-queen sub routine, in my opinion.

Anonymous said...

From what I read in that log, I assume the paladin tank tanked the boss till 15% or so, DId the 3k DPS druid and let the other 3 people deal with the last 15%. From their reaction, someone died (might be the mage from his mouth frothing), but they killed it.

So the paladin wasted nothing.

Anonymous said...

Most of those comments concentrating on the "DK case" show only that Gevlon is right.

People prefer playing with complete morons who are "freindly nais d00ds" and even sympathize with them than to play with competent people who happen to be harsh on others.

So you say the 1100 dps t9 DK is okay and the other guy was unjust. So we don't kick those 1100 dpsers out of heroics. They get "5k+ gearscore imba lulz" and join your voa pug or icc raiding guild, because newsflash, most "guild applications" are so detached from the person if I copy-paste spec, gear and gems from EJ and write some "witty and ambitious" answers to standard questions (copy pasted as well, "what is raiding for you?" "why did you leave your previous guild?") you won't find out he's 1100 dps M&S before you take him to raid and suffer. Time before you kick him out is a time horribly wasted, and either you benched someone to take him to raid or you didn't, but now you can't replace him - raid day spoiled.

Anonymous said...

I must have misunderstood the purpose of mean guys of the week. I thought it was supposed to be constructive criticism, not making silly over dramatic ultimatums.

why was that dk doing such a low dps? Generaly, if I can be bothered to care, I don't just look at the general numbers, I look at the spell usage split, hits/misses, etc. maybe he's just not hitting his buttons fast enough. Maybe he's hitting them in a wrong order. maybe he has no hit or expertise to speak off (if you see a lot of dodges on the hit/crit/miss list, that means expertise is low or non-existent, and if you see parries fro ma dps? that means they were attacking from the front and maybe that's part of the reason for low dps? positioning?)

Whatever the reason for low dps, making an ultimatum of "him or me" is in no way constructive or useful.

Unless of course, I misunderstood the purpose of "mean guys" and its just another "morons of the week" recolored.

Anonymous said...

Hustle here.
He was 71 blood with no Hysteria and a mix of tanking and DPS gear, green gems to match bonuses, was using unholy presence. It's not about low DPS, if he was doing 2k and had all quest blues, that would be OK, but I will always kick M&S, or wipe them if they do not agree. Do you really think constructive criticism will help him? It didn't before that point. Are you really happy to carry a 1200 DPS player who has no idea about his class at all? If so then maybe he is not the only M&S here. I am more dick than goblin perhaps.

Philip said...

I wish I'd screenshotted my one from the weekend.

On my Resto Shaman, doing my daily hell-PUG for my Frosts. The tank zones in and says that the Rogue is his dps alt and is going to be on /follow for extra badges.

I ask him if he's asking us to 4-man the dungeon for him and he says "Ye, if u dont like it get another tank".

So I cheerfully drop group and ignore. A 15 minute wait beats slogging an undergeared tank through a 4 man dungeon clear. I know tanks are the rarest of the random types, but I think some of them are getting a bit out of hand :)

Jeff said...

Did recount some how magically fix the problems it was having tracking interserver damage?

Zanathos said...

Disappointing, the quality of submissions for this feature seems to have gone down already. I did thoroughly enjoy reading the priest leveling guide though. And the paladin thinking mages and warlocks could heal was mildly amusing. The other's weren't really worth the effort to decode the chatlogs.

As many others seem to have noted, the tank doing more dps than the DPS isn't really notable. The party dps isn't so low that they should have any problems. The DPS may not be that great, but it's good enough that a wipe was likely caused by the healing or tanking side of things. Perhaps the bored healer wasn't spending enough time paying attention, but even he noted that it wasn't a dps problem. DPS meters don't tell the full story, they merely provide numbers. The only thing you can really tell from those numbers is that they won't be causing a wipe.