Some of my comments make me think. Others make me laugh. Some are so bad that it deserve its own post. Behold Peter who added his wisdom to my Friday post:
To every "person of subnormal intelligence", including Gevlon who think that savings should be made by anyone with a brain and a job regardless of circumstances so that in case of unemployment shit doesn't happen: you are wrong! I, personally earn twice as much as the average salary in my country, my wife is at home with two kids (1,5y and 3y), kindergartens "sponsored" by the state are full, she earns some family allowance for a few months, and we spend almost 100% of the money we get. No way to save unless I would let my standard of living fall to the level of animals (eating junk food every day and wearing chinese lowest budget crap of a clothing). And we don't live in black Africa or inner Asia, we're in fucking EU!
I see this bullshit all the time. Morons wasting all their salary, claiming that anything less would be at the level of animals.
At first, let's state the obvious: if Peter has 2 kids, and a wife with some government support, he has an average family. If he earns twice as much as the average salary, then his family's income is twice as high as average. So if his statement is true, than the "average guy" in his country is an animal. Moo!
Our friend from the land of animals even mention junk food and "chinese crap clothing" as (non-existent) alternatives to his lifestyle. At first: the Chinese are people and not animals. If they are capable of surviving... I mean running a country with 8% GDP growth, then maybe their stuff is not too bad for you.
Secondly "junk food" is not cheap. Granted, a McDonalds meal is cheaper than a "decent restaurant" meal. But there are other alternatives. You or your wife are capable of cooking meal from ingredients. I don't think that flour, sugar, salt, potato, chicken meat and such things are sky high anywhere in the EU. (If they are, feel free to shop in another EU member). You can buy high quality, yet cheap ingredients directly from farmers (are we talking about RL or WoW here?). You can even grow plants "for free" (for worktime) in your garden or even in flower pots. Granted, they are not so beautiful as vanity pets ... I mean useless flowers. BTW some plants have nice flowers.
I wrote about this, directly in WoW. You "need" epic gear, not because of their stats, but to "be somebody". If you have easily available blues, you can still clear normal content (we are talking about poor people here, not the top). The problem with blue gear or Chinese clothing or used cars or homemade food or last year's electronics or your cousin's used baby-stuff is not their "stats". It's their prestige.
I believe that you honestly think that anything cheaper would make you an animal. Dear Peter, you are a moron! You buy insane level of luxury (at least 50% as you spend twice more than the average guy) every day without even noticing, making yourself believe that anything cheaper is "animal" level. You buy what the marketing gurus tell you to buy, you spend on vanity to keep up with your neighbors, although the cost is that you and your family depend on blind luck: can you keep your job or not. It's not fully under your control, unemployment is unavoidable sometimes.
Oh don't listen to me! Your car is surely cooler than mine, you surely own your home (worth $200K and has $250K loan on it) while I only rent mine, just like you surely have more mounts, pets and "better gear" than me in WoW. I'm just a sorry loser compared to you. A sorry loser with 3 years safety deposit for rainy days.
And finally an advice to you from a loser: delete all the epics from your character and try to play only in blues. You'll notice that there are no consequences besides random idiots point on you. Unless of course you are a hardcore raider, as HC raiders need the best gear and lot of time. In that case, you should simply stop spending so much time with a video game when your family is on the brink of "animalhood"!
PS: there are people living in "black Africa and middle Asia", not animals. They can speak, they can write and they are capable of working. Of course it does not mean they all do, but that's their choice and not their destiny. I don't think that their living standards are below the settlers who conquered the American West and built the USA. Thinking and working defines a person not trendy clothes, antistatic baby-pillows, ilvl 245 pixels or flatscreen TV.
To every "person of subnormal intelligence", including Gevlon who think that savings should be made by anyone with a brain and a job regardless of circumstances so that in case of unemployment shit doesn't happen: you are wrong! I, personally earn twice as much as the average salary in my country, my wife is at home with two kids (1,5y and 3y), kindergartens "sponsored" by the state are full, she earns some family allowance for a few months, and we spend almost 100% of the money we get. No way to save unless I would let my standard of living fall to the level of animals (eating junk food every day and wearing chinese lowest budget crap of a clothing). And we don't live in black Africa or inner Asia, we're in fucking EU!
I see this bullshit all the time. Morons wasting all their salary, claiming that anything less would be at the level of animals.
At first, let's state the obvious: if Peter has 2 kids, and a wife with some government support, he has an average family. If he earns twice as much as the average salary, then his family's income is twice as high as average. So if his statement is true, than the "average guy" in his country is an animal. Moo!
Our friend from the land of animals even mention junk food and "chinese crap clothing" as (non-existent) alternatives to his lifestyle. At first: the Chinese are people and not animals. If they are capable of surviving... I mean running a country with 8% GDP growth, then maybe their stuff is not too bad for you.
Secondly "junk food" is not cheap. Granted, a McDonalds meal is cheaper than a "decent restaurant" meal. But there are other alternatives. You or your wife are capable of cooking meal from ingredients. I don't think that flour, sugar, salt, potato, chicken meat and such things are sky high anywhere in the EU. (If they are, feel free to shop in another EU member). You can buy high quality, yet cheap ingredients directly from farmers (are we talking about RL or WoW here?). You can even grow plants "for free" (for worktime) in your garden or even in flower pots. Granted, they are not so beautiful as vanity pets ... I mean useless flowers. BTW some plants have nice flowers.
I wrote about this, directly in WoW. You "need" epic gear, not because of their stats, but to "be somebody". If you have easily available blues, you can still clear normal content (we are talking about poor people here, not the top). The problem with blue gear or Chinese clothing or used cars or homemade food or last year's electronics or your cousin's used baby-stuff is not their "stats". It's their prestige.
I believe that you honestly think that anything cheaper would make you an animal. Dear Peter, you are a moron! You buy insane level of luxury (at least 50% as you spend twice more than the average guy) every day without even noticing, making yourself believe that anything cheaper is "animal" level. You buy what the marketing gurus tell you to buy, you spend on vanity to keep up with your neighbors, although the cost is that you and your family depend on blind luck: can you keep your job or not. It's not fully under your control, unemployment is unavoidable sometimes.
Oh don't listen to me! Your car is surely cooler than mine, you surely own your home (worth $200K and has $250K loan on it) while I only rent mine, just like you surely have more mounts, pets and "better gear" than me in WoW. I'm just a sorry loser compared to you. A sorry loser with 3 years safety deposit for rainy days.
And finally an advice to you from a loser: delete all the epics from your character and try to play only in blues. You'll notice that there are no consequences besides random idiots point on you. Unless of course you are a hardcore raider, as HC raiders need the best gear and lot of time. In that case, you should simply stop spending so much time with a video game when your family is on the brink of "animalhood"!
PS: there are people living in "black Africa and middle Asia", not animals. They can speak, they can write and they are capable of working. Of course it does not mean they all do, but that's their choice and not their destiny. I don't think that their living standards are below the settlers who conquered the American West and built the USA. Thinking and working defines a person not trendy clothes, antistatic baby-pillows, ilvl 245 pixels or flatscreen TV.
69 comments:
Great post. Peter's logic reminds me of my ex-wife. Yours reminds me of mine. Divorce cut my losses.
I do not understand people who feel so entitled to things they can't afford, who see luxuries as necessities. As you say, even the fast-food meal costs more than taking time to make a healthy meal - or a sandwich - at home.
Dear Peter,
I'm in allmost your position. Employed man with 2 kids and wife which is studying (so only about 100 eur from state). I earn 800 eur / month (which is considered average in my country). Still I have savings for few months and life I enjoy. I'm doing on my savings (and gold is skyrocketing last months).
If my living standard cost me half of the average salary, does it make me an half-animal? If yes, would be cool, I always dreamed of being anthropomorphic :D
Amen
yes peter seems to be a moron.....the very only reason to buy expensive clothing is QUALITY.....when someone needs to buy every year a pair of boots for example you can also have boots that least 4 years without loosing style or whatever and in the end these expensive boots are cheaper over the years then someone who buys them every year....this goes for many stuff......with more money you are able to buy quality stuff which saves your money in end. Timeless good looking quality stuff....
same goes for food...the most healthiest foods are mostly the cheapest...i can cook a hugh tasty meal for 4 persons without even spending more then 10 euros....the expensive stuff are just some increadients like special chili stuff which you buy once frome the asia shop.
Im from US, so mind me.
I am a college students. Go to school and work full time . I'm paying for my own expense, and tuition. No financial aid here, beside some scholarship.
My job is making video ( shoot and edit ), not Pharmacy or Dentistry. At college student pay rate, its not great , just say under 20 bucks/hour. After paying all my expense( rent, food, gas , insurance... ) and tuition, I still have 200-500usd for saving, per month. Here come my luxury: My used car runs just fine, Im walking to school in decent brand clothes ( Hollister if you know it ). I Play wow, go to movie and hang out with my friends. And I have a girl friend.
I dont have a condo, a BMW or Armani clothes. My girl friend is not the hottest in town, and I dont go on a cruise with her for vacation. I still feel blessed and content.
Yes, Im bragging and stroking my epeen. If an average guy like me cam do so, wonder why Peter, who makes 2x the average income, has to live on every penny of his paycheck. I dont have any purpose for that 200-500 usd saving , maybe its there for my grad school, or for a day when my clients think my video blows. But I still have a saving, and zero debt in my credit card.
You can call us who make average income the average Joe. But we are not animal.
In WoW, some of my farmers have more than 10 mounts and pets, even a chopper. They still farm for me, and I have control over their welfare. I dont raid hardcore, or use my money to buy ilv245 stuff, but my gears are just fine. I cleared TOGC10 and working on TOGC25.
You know what Peter, stop playing WoW and to cook your own food or find a part time job. That way you can have a saving. For what? Do you ever think about the tuition of your kid going to college ? Im 25 years old and that crossed my mind on occasion.
I'm not sure if this is exactly the report I remember reading about, but the gist is - Children cost as much as parents can spend. What people view as necessities increase with income, when children are involved. Public Kindergardens are full? Educate your kids yourself at home. Or if you don't have time to do that, perhaps you didn't have time for kids in the first place...
http://www.fahcsia.gov.au/sa/childsupport/pubs/ReformSummaryReport/Pages/AssessingCostsofChildren.aspx
Funny. My base salary is quite modest, but when I first started earning it, it seemed so huge! And once commissions began to roll in, I was at a loss for what to do with all the money.
But my friends are making as much, if not more, and feel poor, because they waste money. I drive an old car; their cars are brand-new and pricey. I share a small but pleasant home and pay very little for it; they have expensive apartments all to themselves.
Wealth is relative to the standard of living you're used to. Most people don't seem to fully comprehend this.
My perspective: I share my rented house with one other person. I work part-time, she studies. If you classed us as a 'couple' we'd be just above the poverty line for our country - if as two singles, a bit below. The classification system here is ambiguous, so we fit somewhere between.
Even so both of us are putting savings away for the future and living perfectly fine. We just don't waste our money on pointless crap. I don't buy expensive 'bodywash', she doesn't buy branded teatowels and we sure as heck don't have any loans for flashy cars that can only legally do 100kph - just like my old Toyota on which I owe nothing and has never broken down in two years of rough use.
As regards "junk food" - I found that I can eat out at most local restaurants for the price of junk food as long as I skip the soda and dessert. This has the side benefit of keeping myself lean. Choices, Peter, choices!
As regards 'chinese lowest budget crap of a clothing' - this makes me laugh. I go past the upmarket department stores once in a while and look at the clothing there, and seeing Ralph Lauren polo shirts "Made in Macau" for $60+ is worth a giggle. For those not yet in on the joke, Macau is part of China. Upmarket companies just get their products finished there so they can avoid the dreaded 'China' label.
The only real difference between a $6 budget polo and a $60 Ralph Lauren Polo is the logo on the front and about $24 of marketing to make you believe buying a shirt costing ten times the price of its twin makes you somehow superior to those who live in 'black Africa'.
Loving the subtle racial slur, there.
The key is to step back from the giant steaming lies that surround all products enticing you to buy them, and be goblinish. Ask yourself merely "What is in this transaction for me?"
Even if you conclude that you value the miniscule social prestige that wearing a pricey polo will bestow more than you value the best possible alternative use for that money, then at least you understand the sacrifice you make. I believe Peter does not ask this question but feels compelled by the lies around him to consume, consume, consume.
TL;DR -> Don't be stupid like my parents and like Peter.
Buy what you need because you need it,
buy what you want because you want it,
but always understand why you buy,
and never buy yourself short!
PS. I have some 'Ralph Lauren' polo shirts. They're fake. Cost me $2 each, and have lasted me three years. Got a friend to buy them for me in Hong Kong. So I get to look rich AND feel rich. Mwahahaha!
When they have nothing better to say, think or do, people will generally just whine to anyone, about any thing. Ad nauseam.
This is quite possibly the most humane thing I have ever seen Gevlon write.
@Peter; you sicken me. I have just finished 3 years of a uni degree, living well below the poverty line, less than subsistence living. I have a legitimate reason to have no savings (and guess what, I have ~2 months worth, long enough to find work now that I have graduated). Am I an 'animal'?
Further, what is wrong with black Africa? Are you suggesting that earning twice average income there wouldn't put you in a position to be able to save? I have extended family in Ghana, educated family, Doctors, Vets and Lawyers, as well as uneducated, bus drivers, unemployed and the like. They understand perfectly well what happens if they are to lose their job.
I hope you are never in the situation that I have lived through the last 3 years. Don't try to claim that you cannot save because it would put you at 'animal level'. It might sound good to your friends, relatives and social peers, but those of us who have actually lived the life you claim to be on the edge of... we laugh at you
So Peter is just the average social guy again. One could speculate about his way of living. Maybe his wife is just a 20 yr old "housebunny" who cannot cook nor clean but has to have an eye on his 16 yr old twin boys from a former marriage. In that case i would really pay someone to clean my home...and to watch over my "vanity pet".
You don't think that parts of "black africa" have a lower standard of living then the people that colonized the American west?
Are you actually serious?
There are many parts of Africa where the standard of living is far below that of people in the old west. Plus, the west had tons of natural resources that many parts of africa don't have.
Peter like many many others is the reason why our society (western) is goosed.
He doesn't know where his towel is.
I live in the UK, I can (very easily and quickly) prepare a meal for my family of 4 in 30 min, a meal many often buy from a takeaway or order in a resurant , this is a nutritious healthy vegetarian meal (Its Indian food, but I'm Irish so no clutural advantage can be cited) and it will cost less than £1 per person.
However, for many ppl of my age (nearly 40) and background, to to so it virtually impossible because of a blinkered and unaware approach to life, and an unwillingness to face up to exactly what the game of life is all about.
In fairness to Peter, he is facing an uphill struggle, he really does believe what he says and he probably is "struggling to make ends meet" on his double average income, but its only because he is culturally predisposed to behave like a "moron".We all are, we are raised from birth to accept the "American Dream", we are groomed consumers and willing marks, lied to by our politicians, decieved by the media and manipulated by dint of our own predispositions.
I myself have started as struggling/poor and "aware", gone to very confortable (through my own business efforts) then lost my awarness- misplaced my towel if u like- and as a result am now struggling again and wondering how I was so stupid,
Our education systems don't really teach us how to think and evaluate, they train us how to perform and operate.
Peter is not a moron, hes a mark/dupe and he just need to have is eyes opened.
As a society we all need to have our eyes opened to some facts of reality, but I afraid Gevlon, only bitter experiance will terach ppl and then its a lifetimes progress that isn't passed on to the next generation because they think everything old is old-fashioned and useless (we were the same).
I think your so called "anti-social" nature, or dispassionate apprasial of facts (u Vulcan) give you a level of insight that "Peter" would find hard to grasp, all you can do is lead by example (and blog), but be carefull Gevlon, "Peter" is not a moron and you shouldn't aleniate him and his ilk if your aim is to spread some (un)common sense about the place.
Nice post tho, gets the message across I think
"the Chinese are people"
Gevlon thank you.
Speaking of crap clothing:
"In a study, analysing how well made high street clothes were, supermarket and so-called value retailers performed better than designer names.
The consultancy tested ten pairs of ladies jeans and ten polo shirts. The jeans ranged in price from £7 to £123, while the polo shirt ranged in price from £12 to £85.
In both cases the cheap versions of the clothes generally fared better than the expensive versions."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/6616136/8-jeans-better-made-than-120-jeans.html
Excellent post. Gets the point accross, especially the very wide-spread self-imposed lies about "standards of decent living", racism, and necessity that many folks have to have something that makes them feel better, higher up the hierarchy. (the reference to the animals or chinese products)
Re. the american west, I think that parts of the initial colons had it rough indeed (i.e. no infrastructure, hospitals, legal, roads). Comparable to some poor parts of Africa (there are plenty of relatively well-off parts in Africa too, remember). However they had plenty of space to grow food, and usually enough resources to build things. There are parts of Africa (Sudan, ethiopia) where the population density has exceeded what the land can sustain. Those parts are really worse off and in desperate straits.
it so funny to think that when this moron will be fire him, his wife and kids will have all the time to think about saving when they will be begging ppl on the street to eat...
The more stupid they are the more they have confidence that's the best part.
statistics about the whole 'third world' notation http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever_seen.html
Damn, what an elitist post by Peter. He sounds like a real jerk.
If you earn twice as much as your fellow men and still only manage to get around I wonder why your wife even gets wellfare. Let alone not having anything left at the end of the month.
As Gevlon says having a smaller house, a second hand car or cheaper clothes will only make the neighbours speak and who gives a damn about those (hint: socials).
In the meantime I'll happily ride around in my ten year old car. It gets me wherever I want to go. At least I'll be able to buy a new one when this one breaks.
woot, a Gevlon post I can sign up to! Go Gevlon!
I honestly don't agree with a lot of what Gevlon says. Normally I only read his posts about 'wow economics', none of this real world stuff, because frankly he appears to be talking out of his ass most of the time. Hitting some points, but completely blinded to the other sides point of view.
This post I would 100% agree with. If Peter makes 2x the average workers salary, and his wife is basically a stay at home mom. Peter should be bringing home the average family income. The average family needs to live, and needs to save. This isn't an option. You can't tell yourself you aren't going to save because you want nicer things. You can't even skip saving just to maintain a statue queue. If you don't save, more likely then not you will be f**ked. Layoffs happen, companies shut down. No one has 100% job secuirty. If you aren't saving, even a little, you are doing yourself and your family a great injustice. You are also the type of person that will blame others when your house of cards fall down.
While I feel saving three years worth your income and renting is also silly, I do feel anyone who has an "average" house hold income should be able to save something while still mainting a lifestyle of always eating, being clear, and having clothes. I'm living it right now. I am in america, but unlike 90% of americans I don't have the newest things. I save the majority of my income because I could care less about upgrading my Ipod every few months, and buying a tv which is 3 inches bigger then the last every year.
Go f**k yourself Peter, you pompus douche.
My family lives from approx. 600 euros a month, and still we have savings for almost 2 years. My parents also bought a little piece of land, where they grow plants and fruits, so we can lower our spendings.
We have two cars, one for my mothers job, one for my fathers little company. Both are'nt brand new, but trusty machines. We can fill them both with gas, so they both can do their work all year long.
I do not wear Giorgio Armani clothes, not even Adidas. I wear stuff that costs about 4-6 Euros.
I cook for myself or eat chinese food, because these options are the cheapest.
I am an average student, with little money, but i can still save 40 euros a month for myself. It is not much, but even a little thing can grow big in the future.
So Peter do me a favor, get your head out of the sand, and do something about "censored" attitude.
Sincerely
An animal
I wouldn't go so far as getting angry at Peter, as other posters have.
Peter is one of two things:
A Moron: Why get angry at a moron for being a moron?
A Troll: If Peter is a troll then he did a great job. He baited Gelvon, and got a dedicated blog post. (He knew his audience and succeeded in his trolling)
Either way Peter gave Gelvon an interesting post.
So cheers to Peter!
CK
If you rent a house or apartment you truly are losing a ton of money.
People drive me nuts sometimes.
I've worked my way up from local poverty issues to a salary that's at about double what the national average is. I followed some sound financial advice and classified everything I spent as luxury or necessity. It made me take a serious look at my spending habits. It sounds like Peter needs to do this as well.
While making a very low level wage, I restricted my spending to only necessities. Now that I have more than enough to cover my necessities, I am free to invest, save, and know that what I purchase is something I can afford. ( I don't buy anything I can't pay for in full).
While this had drawn some comments from others I work with, I don't mind. I don't buy the most expensive clothes, and my car is several years old. I'm a single parent and have been able to survive and get through the economic downturns of late, though with a few losses in my investments.
Why people refuse to admit that they're living beyond their means, and then scream how anything less is unacceptable, yet other live with much less just fine.
There is nothing wrong with being a tightwad!
I don't like this argument either. You can cut your budget and not buy all that stuff.
My problem with Gelvon's mentality is the assumption that its easy to cut. Lets say you were like most people and you had 10-20% equity before the housing market crash, now you have -15-20% equity. Good luck down sizing.
This is why I have trouble with those who have no sympathy for anyone with problems. Its hard to cope with the loss of 40% of your income like my wife and I did. We downsized but it took over a year to do it.
And if you think you have equity in your house and you didn't have 30% before 2006 you really are an M&S. Most homes dropped 30%, and had 7% commission on top of that. And if you think that its easy to downsize you also are M&S.
To Pereubu:
In my experience, clothes from moderatley priced stores such as supermarkets and high street stores are far better quality and more durable than expensive designer clothes or very cheap "bargain" clothes. The reason that this is probably the case is that the mid-level retailers do not have the luxury of trading on their well known name or the draw of LOW LOW PRICES to pull peole in. "Socials" see designer names and buy regardless of build quality, often paying over the odds. Very cheap clothes are, in my opinion, a false economy as I've bought things from shops such as Primark (possibly the least pleasant shopping experience ever) that broke very quickly and I'll get more than 3x the wear out of most £24 jeans than I will from 3 pairs costing £8 each. A large proportion of my clothes come from Tesco (~£20 for a pair of jeans) despite the fact that I have a reasonable amount of disposable income.
To Gevlon, regarding CK's comment: Your English is far better than my Hungarian and I do not mean this as a criticism but have you ever considered using a proof reader? I'm sure many readers (myself included) would be glad to go over old posts (or new) and clean them up for you. Don't get me wrong, your grammar and language is generally very good considering English is not your native language and I can always understand what you mean but the odd grammatical error and strange syntax creeps in here and there. Seriously, if you're interested then give me a yell ingame.
Hmm. I think the problem here isn't the money, necessarily, but the EU. Haha.
Jokes aside, I agree with you.
I'm also glad I can justify my all-epics by my hardcore raiding.
I bet this guy Peter plays on a PvP server.
Dear Gevlon!
I sure made you angry and believe me, I didn’t mean it. I’m also sorry for calling you a moron. I should have waited for some time before reacting to your post.
I also apologize for the fact that you misunderstood many of my claims. I should have elaborated them better. For example I never thought Chinese were animals. They were mentioned in relation to low quality goods that generally the poor buys – at least in my country. Of course I am aware that chinese people make cutting edge products too. Also, I never said people in Africa or inner Asia were animals. That is just your interpretation of my writing. Thanks to you, you even quoted that part in your post. People can decide who made a mistake here.
But let’s talk about the part you wrote about me. I have an average family – so far so good. „If he earns twice as much as the average salary, then his family's income is twice as high as average.” Now, you’re wrong. My wife gets an allowance,which is about 50% of the average salary. 200%+50% / 2 = 125%. Far from being „twice”. But your biggest mistake is not that. Your biggest mistake is the supposition, that the average salary grants you an average standard of living. Not in my country. Here, the average salary is barely enough to pay your bills and to provide food until the next paycheck
Your try to figure out my conditions is also fully wrong. I live in an apartment, no loan on it. This is my own, but I couldn’t have afford it without some parental help. I’m not proud of it, don’t you get me wrong. But parents are parents, that’s the way they do...sometimes. I don’t have a car. I use public transport, I am fine with it. Furthermore: we don’t go to restaurants. My wife cooks and we eat potato and chicken meat. You see, far from being „epic”. Maybe not even blue. And surely not by Western European / Amrecian standards.
Near the end you draw the long bow. The part beginning with „Dear Peter, you are a moron!” is fully wrong. His emotions clearly carried away the goblin’s rationality. Luxury? Ridiculous. Maybe it is your turn to be sorry. Raids? I will be glad to send you my character’s armory link. He never been in any post-vanilla raid instance. I play once a week with four other RL friends. I log on some other days – I like to play the AH, hell, this was the reason I found your site a long time ago.
We shared opinions. We didn’t agree. That’s fine with me and I consider the case closed from my part.
Regards,
Peter
@Peter
WoW costs $14USD a month.
That's just one of the things you spend money on that you should be putting in your bank.
Also forgot to mention. I got this advice from my parents a long time ago: Do not start a family until you have the means to support not just yourself, but two extra people.
So the second question is, why do you have a wife AND not just one but TWO kids if you're in the economic situation you're in.
I don't think Peter is complaining about his economic situation. I believe he is trying to disagree with Gevlon on saving money in these economic climates, at least when you want to have a half decent life style and a family to run (there is a reason why certain clothes are so cheap..)
Also I think it's very much none of your business when it comes to Peter's family situation.. that was quite an uppity remark.
Without observing Peters real lifestyle we can't really say where he could make cuts on his spending. Picking out words he has used in his email isn't going to really prove anything - as Peter has now stated, alot of things were wrong (for example, his wife cooks fresh food..) so parts of the arguement are already invalid.
@debussy
You're right. I should stop playing WoW, that's a money sink. But I'm an addict. I don't watch TV. I play WoW.
Kids: my wife and I wanted kids. I am sorry if "wanting kids" is an economically suboptimal decision and a failure strategy. Just think about where would this world heading if everyone was an extremist racionalist (a.k.a. goblin). ;)
Interesting topic...
While I do agree that in some EU countries ( especially those from the ex-communist block) things can be pretty tough even for average-income people, rationalizing and saving should be a priority.
As I stated in my answer to Peter in friday's post, the smarter thing to do would have been waiting a couple of years and aiming for a better financial situation before having children.
Right now, they will drag you down financially, because of the fact that having to support them you cannot take the same risks as before (i.e. start a bussiness, or move to a riskier job but with a higher premium etc)
So yea rationality is the key to a better living, which pretty much answers your question:
"Just think about where would this world heading if everyone was an extremist racionalist (a.k.a. goblin)."
I do believe rationalism would make the world a better place. In fact I dare Gevlon to write an essay post starting from this phrase.
@ Debussy
WoW is one of the cheapest forms of entertainment in terms of £(or $,euro etc)/hour. Far cheaper than cinema, for me cheaper than sattelite/cable tv but that depends on how many hours you spend on each activity.
For myself my WoW playing probably averages out at 3 hours per day (more on days that I play but I don't play every day), adds up to ~84 hours per month. WoW costs me around £9 per month so that comes out at around 11p per hour. Once you factor in the electricity costs (~8p per kWh, guessing my computer uses, at most, 400W on average) WoW still comes in at less than 15p (less than 20c in either Euro or USD) per hour.
@Peter: sorry but you are wrong. The average family has an average earner man AND a government supported woman (while kids are small). So average family: 100%+50%/2 = 75%.
Also if you have a home given by your parents, you are very lucky.
You are a rich man Peter, you just waste too much.
@Okrane S.
This would mark the coming of the "better place"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_ageing
In 100 years the welfare societies will crush as no amount of money will be enough to support the pensionary who will represent 60-70% of the population in developed countries. Immigration won't change much, see the case of France and the Maghreb.
It looks like CK's second guess is right. Peter is a Troll.
Now that he's allegedly responded (can't be 100% sure it's him) we can see he owns his own apartment outright, with no loan or mortgage. His wife cooks and they eat potatoes and chicken, so obviously not eating out a lot. And they maybe have one car between them (for his wife) because he takes public transport.
So he has no mortgage or loan repayments, doesn't eat out a lot, and possibly has just one car repayment, but can't save any money.
Oh! Woe is Peter! Life is so hard! He can afford for his wife to stay home with his children and he can come home each night to a home-cooked meal, but he can't save any money because he has to wear $50 Ralph Lauren polo shirt.
No? Then just what are you spending all your money on? Crack? Hookers? Or...oh god. It's even worse, isn't it? You're an end-game Raider and you buy Gold, don't you?
Peter, you need help, but it's not too late. The first step is admitting you have a problem. Don't deny it, that's not healthy. Admit you have a problem and you can start along the road to recovery. Deny it, and there's no helping you.
@Gevlon
You're right, average family earning is about 75% of personal average.
With that in mind, we are talking about 1700 USD total to spend monthly. Without further arguing, everyone can figure out what this amount would be enough in his/her country.
lol
Rationalizing does not mean not having kids, it just means covering up your penis with some latex until you have enough cash to feed a third mouth and not bitch about it on the internet...
I still hope Gevlon makes a post about this... it would be fun to see his intake on the matter :)
$1,700 USD monthly is not "twice as much as the average salary in my country" anywhere in the United States.
http://www.justice.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa/20091101/bci_data/median_income_table.htm
So, I'm guessing you don't live here. If you are in the U.S., then your problem is income, not expenses.
@Peter
Surely you must have quite a few luxuries, as people making 3/5 (75/125) of what you make are somehow surviving. You may want to take a second look at your finances if it does concern you. Remember, even just a $2 coffee each day is over $500 a year.
I'd recommned looking around an reading personal finance blogs to anyone actually interested in making money/frugality. I won't plug any in particular but I'm certain a quick google search will get you a few leads.
@ Peter
Just a second. 200%+50% is 250%. You can't divide that by two since you are in one household. Unless you really do split the money with your wife, in which case that's a bad deal. Regardless of whether that is true or false, you make between 50-100% more than the average household.
So if the average household is able to save, why can't you? You already said you cook all of your own meals, you don't have a car and take public transportation (last I checked, it wasn't that expensive), and so on. Where exactly is all that extra money going? Rent too high? Kids have medical issues that require larger hospital bills? Some other thing?
The whole point is that you could easily be saving money in the bank by cutting back on expenses by changing your situation.
Peter,
You're just another incompetent moron, slave to what is considered 'base' by your chosen social peers. Television doesn't help in perpetuating what is a false sense of 'normal'. (If the characters in the TV show 'friends' could never has supported that lifestyle.)
My wife and I have been living off of my salary since our first child was born. My gross was below US average in a major city (top 10 US) and we still managed to save 20% of every paycheck. As my employer grew more appreciative of my work, my salary has increased several multiples of its original, and we now have 4 children. Somehow, we save over 40% of what I bring in without eating 'junk food', buying fashionably stupid things, or purchasing cable television. (I don't have a snow-blower, riding lawn mower, leaf blowing gadget, or many other personal electronic extras. I view them as extras not needed, and I value my ability to provide in an emergency more than nice to have 'things' that will break or wear out.)
You need to really view what is important. In my personal opinion, it's being able to provide for my family both while employed and JUST IN CASE something unexpected would happen. Currently, my children's college is funded (oldest is almost 9), life insurance is in place, my only debt is my mortgage, and I have 6 months of cash reserves. I am hoping to extend that reserve to the point of early retirement, well before standard retirement age.
The key is living below your means, not 'at' what you're able to afford. Television is a bad example of what is realistic, and I've seen way too many people fall for that trap only to end up burned.
Am I an animal? Maybe by your standards. However, you've made a good case regarding what I view as idiocy, so the animal in me doesn't care what you have to say. I'm trying to ensure that my family's financial future is secure.
I can do without fancy clothes or gadget.
I agree with you about everything except the part where you make him seem dumb because he's got a 200k house with a 250k loan on it--that's not his fault. Renting an apartment does not make you more savvy, cause once you bring kids in the equation it's best to A) have more room, and B) own the previously-white wall the kid paints black when he finds the paint.
@Okrane S. and to all others who says "wait until you have enough cash to feed a third mouth":
Wait until what? I am almost 40 and while I agree that men can wait even until 50 with a child, women can't for biological reasons. When they pass 40, pregnancy becomes more and more risky. And I didn't even mention the fact that if you want to see your kid growing up, you shouldn't wait too long either.
And if we are on the topic: may I ask Gevlon and the other money savers: when are you planning to spend all your pennies? When will come the time when you touch your own head and realize that shit, I have a bank account full of money and I barely lived in my whole sparing life? Over 60?
@Peter- I think it is best to save with those retirement years in mind. Especially as it seems that your children will be entering their college-ready years as you are nearing retirement. This might place a huge financial burden on your shoulders just when you are thinking about retirement.
With the last sentence you are basically admitting to be a great moron.
I enjoy my life a lot thank you. Still I manage to save about 25-30% of my paycheck. This means that every year I save enough to keep my lifestyle for 4 months. Even more if I drop it somehow.
The simple fact that I don't own a TV (my 19" Pc screen is enough to cover it), I drive a 70000+ Km Fiat Panda (http://www.youthblog.org/archives/Fiat%20Panda.jpg this car), I spend far less than 300 euros every year in clothes and so on doesn't make my life less enjoyable than yours.
Yeah I was dreaming to buy a HD 883, and I decided to postpone it some years. Cause I can't afford about 8k euros motorbike nor a 330 euros/month for 2 years loan.
I prefere to prepare for the worst case scenario, while still dreaming for a best case one.
You are living as if the best case scenario is ensured, while having nightmares about the worst case one.
I don't know if I'll ever have kids, for sure I will not have kids I cannot guarantee a healthy future.
Kids are a responsibility in my opinion.
I think you are not a good parent, there are many things you should drop in your life if you really cared about your kids, WoW and internet being 2 of them.
And "I'm addicted" is really a poor excuse. I'm addicted to WoW aswell, but at least I can fully afford it AND have savings at the same time.
"If you rent a house or apartment you truly are losing a ton of money."
As opposed to what? Taking out a mortgage/loan that costs 2-3x's what a monthly rent can run, so suddenly you cannot make your loan payments?
Yes, renting is "like throwing away money" in a long-term perspective. However, renting is often what is within the means of most individuals.
I worked in an office, made $9.16/hour. Full time. I couldn't afford a $1500/month mortgage! no way! So, I rented for $500/month (which yes, was a fortunate low price - I was not trying to rent a $1500/month apartment in LA). And I was very happy renting. No land taxes, something breaks/leaks/etc... I don't have to pay for it.
I didn't put myself into debt trying to "not waste money renting".
Anyone who frowns on renting versus buying is just ignorant in so many ways.
1700 USD/mo. lol. The average income for my state is $3750 for single income and $5400 dual income. In the US most mortgages are above $1700/month.
I think I'm understanding why this blog is so skewed. Only a couple people actually know what its like to live in the United States.
Remember most things in the US are private and not part of the Gov't. Because of that even if you are smart about your money it doesn't go very far.
One sad proberb is: 30% to mortage, 30% tax , 30% to health care, 10% to live on.
@Francesco, and all the other fucktards out there:
1.) I don't spend on luxory. Just because your goblin god speculated this in his post, NO, I don't spend on luxory goods.
2.) I don't own a car. Nor my wife. I live in a big city (~2000k habitants), public transport is fine while car traffic is totally fucked up.
3.) I don't spend on luxory!
4.) Even if I prepared for the worst, I couldn't save as much as could make a difference.
5.)@ the shithead Anonymous at 21:35 I live in EASTERN EUROPE, the average monthly net salary in my country is net 121,900 HUF which is 670 USD (see the first pdf here, in english for your convenience: http://portal.ksh.hu/portal/page?_pageid=38,665397&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL and the current exchange ratio here, look for USD: http://www.mnb.hu/engine.aspx?page=napiarfolyamok).
670 USD x 2,5 = ~1,700 USD, so please shut the fuck up. Insted, think what you would get for this money in your shiny USA whose brilliant bankers put the world economy in the deepest shit we ever knew.
@ 21:35
I agree! I make roughly 3000 per month after taxes and I can barely afford where I live. See in America, the country is very spread out, but the jobs are mostly concentrated in a few urban areas, which are incredibly expensive to live in. This is for entry-level jobs. So if you are a new grad, like I am, with 400-800 per month in student loan payments, you have to then live in the most expensive places in the country. See, in the U.S. we have to pay through the nose for education, health care, housing, everything. We don't have welfare that anyone can really qualify for (you have to make zero). Most of us now are going to be saddled with 400-800 per month payments for the next 25 years. Incomes are not rising here.
Though I agree with the fundamental point, that if you strip away all "luxuries" (wow, cable tv, internet, the occasional pint) you could save money here as well as anywhere, no matter the climate. I guess i invest that extra 100 bucks I coulda saved in my own sanity by paying for SOME entertainment.
China > Peter
hmmm, so Gevlon and Peter are living in the same country, yet somehow, Gevlon has managed to save the money he is claiming and Peter is flat broke.
Hmmmm... is it that Gevlon earns more? Is it the kids? ...
All these responses are great, its nice to see so many actually come together over a Gevlon post =D
Its pretty much our motto "Live below our means, retire early". My family and I save a lot and plan a lot.
Live in the great future you will have and you'll never feel poor.
First of all, are you all serious in trying to teach a man of 40 how to live his life? you think that kind of advice actually works in any way? Seriously?
And Peter, please stop making a fool out of yourself. What I sense as your major grief is that you feel that you should somehow be payed more or live a better life for the amount of effort you feel you are investing. Noone here will lend you any support in that attitude, but I guess you already know that. Not only because we are self righteous jerks who look down on anyone, but also because your complaining almost begs for dismissive responses you are getting.
Try rephrasing your objections and observations, try not to make yourself look like the biggest victim ever and especially do not expect the world to come and "suffer" or even agree with you - and we will already have a much better way of communicating.
And, BTW, no, the so-called "American bankers" did not cause the crash of the economy. If you read just a little bit on the subject and manage to overcome the leftist-liberal bullshit of such an oversimplification, you will see that it was the USA government(s) decisions and regulations -starting with some regulations passed in the late 70s- that actually contributed to the crash the most, *not* the free market.
in other words, ironically, the crash happened because the government wanted to suck up to exactly the same families as you portray your own to be: those living on the verge "of junk food and not being able to make savings".
wickEd - arathor(EU)
Dear Peter,
You are the only person to blame for your situation. You made the decisions to get yourself into this problem.
Dear Peter,
You are a racist. You stereotype about people in China, Central Asia, and Africa.
Dear Peter,
You don't appreciate anything that you have. You don't appreciate the fact that you earn more than the average european. You don't appreciate the fact that you have a home. You don't appreciate the fact that you have a wife and three kids. You don't appreciate the fact that you have access to the internet. You don't appreciate the fact that you have time to play wow.
Dear Peter,
You are to blame for all your problems. You put yourself into this position, get yourself out of it.
@Raddom
Small correction, he is definitely WAY below the average "European" income. Europe is NOT a country, it's a continent. Just like if you would talk about the average income of America, you would also have to include Mexico, Brazil, Colombia, etc. Comparing eastern Europe with western Europe is a bit like comparing north America with south.
Europe and America are continents, USA, Mexico, Argentina, Germany, Netherlands, Hungary, France are countries.
Sorry, if I sound a bit condescending here, but this strangely common mistake made by Americans (there's not even a way to reference you as a citizens of the USA, or is there) has always irritated me.
People! In a recent post Gevlon analysed the marketing techniques of Marcko through an email from him, bashing him to the ground completely in the process. Though I enjoyed reading the article, now I think it’s time for him to write a post about his own methods. As I fear that he won’t be that generous with us, let me drow the sketch of what he used in my case:
1. Pick a comment that pissed you off
2. Write a post about it, in one half of which you misinterpret the basic claims of the subject, making him look like a complete moron
3. In the other half make up things out of the blue and present them like cold hard facts, setting the guy even more retarded
4. Drow a conclusion that every „faithful follower” will agree with
Wait! Does this seem familiar to you? Isn’t it like a short fuse for a SOCIAL DRAMA? Here, on greedygoblin??? :D
But seriously. I explained my words in a long comment. Read my posts above! Result? He didn’t even said in a comment that he was sorry. Let alone removing his post full of shit about me. A+++ in manipulating people, good work!
For those who still didn’t get my point: you may be not better than the M&S this site is all about. What does a goblin live off of after all?
His overpriced goods – and words.
Regards,
Peter
A valuable post on "The level of animals".And I would like to say that I'm living my dream of owning my own business and working from home earning equally or more than the regular jobs by using http://debtfreeliving.ownanewbusiness.com.
Thanks,
Peter- Own a new business
@Peter
Unfortunately for you, much like Marcko's backtracking, your 'explanation' of your original comment is worthless when the original comment is still there for everyone to see.
You made your points clearly enough in the original comment, so treating Gevlon and his readers like idiots by now saying you never meant that at all only makes you look worse and worse.
Last comment from me on this subject, cause I'm really starting to think you are a troll.
Thanks for calling me a fucktard and thanks for pointing out you don't spend on luxury.
That's not true.
WoW = luxury, hell even a internet connection (unless needed for work) is a luxury.
TV contract = luxury.
You have all of the above, you can start saving that money.
regards
Francesco.
This is a total aside, but there are different versions of the Ralph Lauren polo shirt, there is a cheaper type which is very thin and scratchy, much like the knock-offs, and what I consider the true polo which is a very thick cotten. This later lasts for years and years. Yes its expensive but for my extremely sensitive skin its about the only thing I can wear because its so soft. I tried most of the knock-offs, they are much cheaper material and its obvious. If you dont have sensentive skin its not a big deal, but if you do get the real polo shirt.
barely scraping by? poverty?
Dude I gotta call BS.
You might not be keeping up with the Jones'.... but you are a long way from real poverty. (and so are 90% of the people on social programs).
Take a look at your life today. The way you heat/power your home. (and most people have one). running water, entertainment transport. Even among the poorest people today there is still conveniences beyond the wildest dreams of teh richest royalty just 100-200 years ago.
Look at your food and water supply, medicine and medical science. And remember why the human lifespan doubled in the last couple centuries.
Your in Poverty?? BS. Talk to a few of your elders. My grandmother talks about how excited she was to get a Christmas orange. It was the only one the family could afford to give her for the entire year. Some years they had a horse to help with the farm labour... other years it simply cost too much and they worked by hand and on foot. She used to walk the 6 mile distance to town to get things for her mother like tea. 10 cents of tea was expected to last nearly a month. It got pretty thin at the end but it was what they had... they made do.
Over her lifetime, she and my grandfather raised 5 children, and grew a homesteaders quarter into a farm worth several million.
So don't give me a bunch of BS about how you are a little hard-done-by because your ice cream cone didn't come with sprinkles or your SUV is a little hard on gas. Get off your ass and do a little work. At the rate you are complaining you might get 10% of what my grandparents got done having started ahead of where you will finish.
I wish I was 1/2 the man my grandfather was.... And peter... I sincerely hope that someday you and people like you make it to 1%.
Anonymous said:
One sad proberb is: 30% to mortage, 30% tax , 30% to health care, 10% to live on.
I wonder how much this comment applies to the various countries.
I did a quick rough guess on my own situation, and it came out to 16% "mortgage" (Paying rent, it's small compared to the average in my country, but good area), 12% health (No health problems, that's just insurance), 25% taxes (RA and Medical are tax-deductable, otherwise this would be more...), 12% RA (+ some more savings to various accounts).
I live in South Africa... I guess SA isn't as bad it's made out to be :)
Anonymous said...
yes peter seems to be a moron.....the very only reason to buy expensive clothing is QUALITY....
--
I love bushcraft, I love the outdoors. I made boots 10 years ago from animal furs that are still in PERFECT shape today ( after walking hundreds of miles on rough/wet/muddy terrain. It cost me give or take 20 euros in fur and mats. As opposed to the 500 euro Prada boots I have to replace EVERY YEAR (because they simply fall apart) to wear at my work where I have to radiate a certain glamour and authority to the friendly social society we live in.
In todays day of age information is basically free. You can become a survivalist simply reading a book and doing step 1 2 3 4 5. (besides the time spent researching). It's not that hard for a family of four to live on a 50-100 euros budget per week. Like Gev said, you can grow it yourself or buy it off farmers. I personally grow it myself, got a nice little patch I work on when I need to relax and I also buy potatoes/onions/lettuce/carrots straight from the farmers. Now you might say '' BUT I LIVE IN THE CITY '' . So do I. I do have a garden though. But back when I was living in a rental appartement I used to grow onions and strawberries and tomatoes on my balcony IN POTS! Imagine doing that untill your retirement. That's a fuck THOUSAND bucks saved right there.
PS! Sorry for my English, it's not that good, but hope i make myself understandable.
This is just why i hate to have discussions with people on the internett. Im getting furious at the people commenting against Peter on this thread.
1. You guys dont know how Europe works at all: Let me set an example
I live in Norway (the best country to live in the whole world
[West-Europe - Me] I work at a gas station, i am 19 yo. Have nothing to do this year and i am working two weekends a months (friday, saturday and sunday) Sometimes, i work for more money if i want to.
My salary: Around 6000-15000 NOK,- (Around 1.100-2800 USD)
Yes! It's exspensive in Norway, but still. A gas station! My parents are really high educated and earns almost 300 USD an hour!
My clothes: Armani, Lacoste and Hugo Boss, got a really nice apartment, a hot girlfriend, a 2006 model mini cooper, and i'm living a luxuary life compared to most of the population of the world.
[Eastern-Europe] Eastern-Europe is the poor part of Europe. Many countries of easter-europve suffered a double whammy of world war 2 without the Americans to build them backup (instead they got occupied by communists for 45 years). Communism stalled them afterwards. It got backup from the old Sovjet, but when Sovjet fell, it became poor. Just as Norway would've been if it wasnt because of the american support through NATO and because of the oil and gas.
PS! I bet 70% of the comments comes from Americans, since they tend to speak of things they have no clue on.
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