Theoretically no one should be rejected because his gear is too low. Everyone who have the proper skills should be accepted.
The reasons, as always, social, this case inequity aversion. This means that the person refuses the situation where he gets a lesser reward (but still gets some reward), if someone else receives a greater reward. It is literally an ape-subroutine as it was first observed (and still often experimented) in monkeys.
If the officer accepts a lesser geared player, he gets a small reward (be able to raid), while the applicant gets a greater reward (be able to raid + lot of upgrades).
I don't think that the proper way to counter this is applying in low gear and linking this post, and as yesterday, I don't think that reading this will change the thinking of any officer.
There are three ways for applicant to counter this:
- If we consider "top" gear to be 100%, then the average guildmember is somewhere in the 90-95% range and the blue gear is around 60-65%. Of course no one applies in blues to a topguild, the mixture of ilvl200 crafted epics, ilvl 213 Naxx25 loot, ilvl 226 badge loot provides 75-80%. Considering that the guild currently have an empty spot (0%) and the applicant is not a moron to kite fires to the healers, 75% definitely better than 0.
- Gear rains down from the sky. The new applicant could gear up in weeks to 85-90% from drops that would be disenchanted or given to offspec otherwise.
- "Being low on gear" is obvious. The applicants coming from lesser guilds so they all have worse gear. If he would have the same gear, he would apply to an even more advanced guild, just like your current guildmembers apply to these guilds (just because they don't tell you, they do)
The reasons, as always, social, this case inequity aversion. This means that the person refuses the situation where he gets a lesser reward (but still gets some reward), if someone else receives a greater reward. It is literally an ape-subroutine as it was first observed (and still often experimented) in monkeys.
If the officer accepts a lesser geared player, he gets a small reward (be able to raid), while the applicant gets a greater reward (be able to raid + lot of upgrades).
I don't think that the proper way to counter this is applying in low gear and linking this post, and as yesterday, I don't think that reading this will change the thinking of any officer.
There are three ways for applicant to counter this:
- Offer reward: pay for your trialship. This way you don't "get" but "buy" your upgrades. The obvious goblin choice.
- Devalue the gear. Write in your application that your gear is low because you never really cared for it as long as you could do your job. Offer that you'll be fine passing on gear for other mainspecs after your acceptance, even when you'll have enough DKP to beat them, you are fine with otherwise disenchanted stuff. The main point is not offering that you'll pass loot to him later (bribing), but that you make him believe that this is not an unequal situation as the gear (what is unequal) has no social value.
- Get gear.
- Don't jump too big! If you are in Naxx gear, apply to a guild that does Antechamber + ToC 3/5. After you geared there, apply to the Yogg+Anub normal guild. After you geared there, apply to the hard mode guild
- Do the goblin thing and take a paid Ulduar run (from another guild). Several guilds offer normal Ulduar paid spots.
- Do the obvious goblin thing and buy BoE.
- If all else fails, farm badges (granted I'd quit WoW if I had to take this way).
26 comments:
Applying in subpar gear shows that the applicant does not care about performing to his/her best during raids. It can also mean he/she joins a raiding guild to gear up, not gear up to raid.
Don't forget that it's extremely easy to gear up now. Back before wotlk and sunwell free badge gear, it's understandable to be undergeared compared to the top raiding guilds that are attuned to hyjal and bt while new applicants are not attuned and can't gear up because they are not in similar guilds. The barrier entry to raiding thanks to attunements are much higher then. Why insist on just relying on skill to raid when we can get both skill + gear. Easily.
In reply to the above comment, I do not understand why an applicant to a top guild should waste weeks of effort in the game farming sub par gear through a mind numbing grind that is probably detrimental to his skill as a raider: after 4 weeks of boring aoe heroic grind, I am certain that his raid performance will have dropped, as Gevlon says, we are apes. To be good at something, we need constant practice, otherwise we forget and dumb down.
What I find incomprehensible, is that recruitment is done solely on the basis of a written application and the evaluation of your gear. This only shows that guild officers tend to be as lazy and uninspired as the majority of players. If officers really did care about their jobs, and some do, the written application would only be used to weed out the useless jerks. As soon as someone is not an obvious rejection, he should be evaluated in Raid conditions!
It is completely irrational to miss out on those who like to most optimize their wow time in the name of gear. Recruiting people of equal gear, you get people joining up for social reasons mostly. As Gevlon said, Social drama in other guilds, a better guild reputation or other stupid reasons. The applicant who only seeks to optimize his wow time would make a better raider. Why?
Because he would not be incline to participate in social drama if he is serious about optimizing his time playing. Because, if he only cares about optimization he will only demand progress and upgrades, and push for it himself, rather than push for Epeen providing best in slot epics that everyone want.
So, to all guild officers out there: test people out! It does not take long, or a huge toll on raid (there are ALWAYS farm raids or bosses during a week). I am pretty sure that if you do this the quality of your applicants will really grow!
Hi Hugues, written applications tell whether the applicants have the right attitude and willingness to put in effort in raids. Raiding is a wipefest when new dungeons are out, and a boring grindfest after the bosses are farmed. (Remember farming BT for a year before sunwell came?) In a way it's an even more mind numbing grind than farming heroics after a while. Top guilds do not want raiders who burn out or get bored of the game during such situations. If they do not have the patience to farm heroics, they will not have the patience to wipe in raids.
If you want to optimize your wow time, the best way is to buy runs from the top guilds, not raid in a top guild. Raid progression is a marathon, not a sprint.
If you take the raw numbers, then yes, subpar gear isn't an issue with taking on an applicant.
As you mention, top guilds are disenchanting the majority of drops and there's often a space for an alt/'extra body' on farm runs.
The issue is that what subpar gear says about you. Considering how easy it is to get the gear, what's your reason for avoiding it?
-Just started playing?
Unless you were born with a keyboard and mouse, you'll need some time to master class before joining a raiding guild
-Re-roll?
Fair enough, but do you know your new class?
-Not enough time to gear up?
Means you won't be able to commit to raiding
There's also a tendancy for players to apply to the top 5 guilds and get angry well the 'elitist jerks' reject them. You need to learn to crawl before you can walk.
I'm actually far more inclined to take a player with sub-par gear than one with a non-optimal spec (or bad gear choices.) That said, we expect our members to perform right off the bat and not after a couple of weeks of getting the leftovers from farm runs. In addition to that we don't do farm runs unless a significant potion of the guild still needs that gear or all other content is done with or inaccessible.
This means that you don't need the same gear level as the rest of the guild has to apply, but you do need enough gear to be competitive from the start or have very convincing arguments that the guild should gear you up. (i.e. we had a paladin tank rerolling to DK because we really needed a DK tank. We knew he was a great tank and just lacked the gear - so we just dragged him through Ulduar a couple of times and opened the guild bank.)
One part I can't agree with at all is this: "Considering that the guild currently have an empty spot (0%) and the applicant is not a moron to kite fires to the healers, 75% definitely better than 0."
This view is overly simplistic. An open spot doesn't mean we are going to raid with 24 people otherwise but it usually results in a slightly suboptimal raid composition or raiders stretching a bit to come to more raids.
At the very least, the addition of the new applicant needs to increase the raids performance as much as keeping the slightly suboptimal composition. But that is ignoring the opportunity cost associated with taking that player - you will close a spot in your recruitment and remove the chance of getting a better (geared) player in instead. 75% performance just isn't enough unless you are really starved for members.
I really hate the your gear sucks argument to not accept you into a guild or a pug.
But in my experience its because of 2 reasons:
1) the leader thinks you have to have some proof of skill and since you cant prove skill they go by gear.
2) the leader doesn't want to go through the dungeon/raid at the appropriate level. or wants you to help farm a lower level dungeon quickly.
imo both of these are stupid. its really sad at one point they were undergeared and have forgotten that skill makes up for gear.
I'm with icye: applying in subpar gear suggests lack of experience and dedication to the game. It won't disqualify a good app, but if it smells like M&S...
Hugues wrote: "What I find incomprehensible is that recruitment is done solely on the basis of a written application and the evaluation of your gear." Hey, in the real world, you often don't even get past the written application (resume). The app and the gear are a good screen to sure whether it's worth one's time to interview someone. Cookie-cutter EJ is a B. The other day someone applied as a tree and explained in detail on the app that he had two sets of gear, one with high MP5/2100 SP, and one with medium MP and 2400+ SP, and explained his strategy behind the all-MP5 gemmed approach of his first set that we saw in his armory. Ding ding ding -- give that guy an interview and some trial runs.
As for the assertion that testing people out "does not take long, or a huge toll on raid (there are ALWAYS farm raids or bosses during a week)." I completely disagree. We have three official runs a week, and some unofficial runs. It takes effort to raid lead and organize signups, and we have enough extra raiders in our guild that we calculated a person is about 20% likely to be benched for any given raid. There is grumbling among the ranks if a probationary member takes a raid spot and starts putting up 2k dps. There is pressure on the officers to not allow M&S into the guild, or to waste raiders time dragging down a raid. As for farm bosses? Naxx won't tell you much about how a person plays short of seeing the meters and hearing how they communicate (and there's not much needed for Naxx anymore.) The only hope is Ulduar runs, and those are hit and miss right now -- people would rather run a normal ToC-10 or a Vault than an Ulduar.
If your gear smells like M&S, no guild emphasizing performance will take you without a reasonable explanation. Just like in the real world, you're going to need to explain that 4 year gap on your resume so that we know it's because you were a stay at home dad and not because you're hiding that time jailed for the felony or that you don't want to tell us about the company that fired you.
I find it very interesting how Gelvon's path has led him around to a broad view of the game rather than a more narrow one. Just shows that though I often disagree with his Randian philosophy, I wouldn't keep reading if he didn't have a brain in his head.
Gevlon,
In my experience the 'recruit thread' usually serves two purposes: to decide if the person is geared to our level. That doesnt mean as geared, that means capable of performing. A DPS class geared in naxx25, uld 10 and badge 226 simply will not output the 6k we need for TotGC, and thats a fact.
The second thing we look for is how well they can take criticism. A perfect applicant, although rare, is usually hit or miss because we cannot tell if they will yell screaming into the night if someone suggests they should change that gem. What we are looking for, and remember this kids, is for at least 1 tiny 'mistake' be it a strange gem, a non EJ spec, or something, and then to attack it mercilessly. If the person just changes it, thats usually a red flag. If they stand up and defend their choice and turn the attack into a discussion, we have a winner.
Although, we reject LOTS of people with lower gear, because we NEVER run with 24 people, or pug anyone. We just run with sub optimal comp, and try to recruit the missing link. We have enough non-raiders in the guild that can do 5k dps and not stand in the fire, that just dont commit to the raid schedule that we can afford to wait for the guy who knows wtf hes doing and is geared enough to put in 110% off the bat.
So I gotta ask!
how many times are you going to post / complain that people who are under-geared aren't getting raid invites?!
we all know SKILL > GEAR.
But how do you measure SKILL? what unit of measurement do you use?
For us, "gear" is only one facet of the answer to the question of "will this person be a good raider for us?" And someone who says flat out in their application that their gear is not the bestest evar, but they still can do X amount of dps and know all the fights - we'll they're going to get at the very least an interview - if not a trial run or two.
I've seen more than a few players outplay their gear (even more so than the examples Gevlon has given us that show gear =/= the Be All and End All of a raider).
A clever officer will realize that a good raider is more than purple pixels. A good raider is more than a good spec. A good raider is more than someone who is clever.A good raider is someone who exists at an intersection of these (and other) qualities.
Where that intersection lies depends entirely on the guild you are. If your guild chooses to weight gear more heavily than a nimble mind and a willingness to learn and become a better raider - then that's the guild you will have. Geared. Perhaps if you select heavily enough for gear, the gear that the guild has may be more than enough to compensate for deficiencies otherwise. Perhaps not.
I don't claim to know how to weight the various factors for any guild but my own.
Only a moronic guild wouldn't take someone because their gear is too low. That's just stupidity. Skill outweighs gear every time.
Now if they are wearing the WRONG type of gear, with the wrong stats, that's another story. That shows they don't know what they are doing.
I disagree with some of the other comments that spout the "Subpar gear is a measure of subpar performance/effort" line of thinking.
If your current guild uses a random loot distribution system (Need/Greed rolls) then there's a good chance that die rolls are obfuscating whatever effort and attendance you've put in.
In the case of a DKP system, the overall population of the guild controls the frequency of upgrades you receive. (i.e. more people who raid + more individual toons vying for the same upgrades = less frequent upgrades for you)
Case in point: Running a full clear 25-Naxx every week (back when Ulduar was just opened), but the tier helm off of KT either doesn't drop that week, or someone else rolls higher each time.
Having a tier helm equipped is in no way a reflection of your effort and performance.
Your effort and performance should be measured by how you gem/enchant/optimize the items you ARE wearing.
Whether it's a blue, or a BiS...if it's gemmed or enchanted incorrectly it illustrates that even when given a chance to perform at your class' absolute best, you fail to grasp how your class and spec should work.
If you are nowhere near your hitcap (or well-over it), that is a damning bit of evidence that you do not understand its importance. This too cannot be "fixed" with higher ilevel gear upgrades...this is the fault of the player.
Perhaps your gear is subpar because there are too many other cloth healers, plate DPSers, or classes competing for your tier set in your current guild.
Applying to a new guild with less competition for the items you need makes sense for two reasons:
1. The gear upgrades (obviously)
2. A lower population of Shamans, Druids, etc. within the new guild means you have a better opportunity to attend raids due to the utility your class brings to the group.
I want to type rude word lol here. Are all of you don't understand that there are different guilds?
For example if you are raiding Ulduar normal and just stating to do hardmodes you don't need gear for your members. If you are 2/5 in totc hard mode you do.
if you need to recruit that means you either can't run or are bringing in less optimal players, either in skill or gear. which would you rather bring in, someone who constantly dies in the fire but has nearly all bis or a new recruit who knows how to play but doesn't have near bis. Either way you'd still be struggling whether you're doing TotGC or Naxx.
I'd bring the person who can get better over the player who cannot learn.
It seems to me a lot of the answers I have got have drawn heavily on personal experience, an it also seems to me quite narrow a way to think about things.
What I was suggesting, is that the recruitment quality would skyrocket if you dedicated some time each week to test out recruits in a semi-serious raid environment. It does not need to be within you all important progress lockouts, it can be the tier under. Fights will always be long enough, and complex enough to differentiate Morons and M%S from potentially good recruits.
Icye said: "Raiding is a wipefest when new dungeons are out, and a boring grindfest after the bosses are farmed" I completely disagree!
What is wrong with whiping or gearing up in a farming dungeon? If you have progression perspectives, and the pleasure to play at your maximum while surrounded by people who do the same, it is not a problem to do the above.
However, that does not apply to the many obvious frustrations of having to gear up in heroics with random idiots spoiling your game time constantly. I do not see what is wrong with the idea to wish to play alongside skilled people if you posses the skill as well.
As for "learning how to crawl before you can walk", I am very sorry but Wow is hardly a challenge. If you are clever enough, you will have the skill to do whatever is needed in a high end raid in next to no time. So no need to "learn" your class through 3 months of frustrations when you could be out there helping other like minded people to achieve the hardest things in this easy game.
All it boils down to, is a fundamental lack of trust and respect for applicants. Sure, with the awful mass of M&S it is hard to keep honest and decent towards your fellow man, but ultimately I think it is better to give people a chance to prove they are not Morons rather than loosing the possibility of discovering a new, awesome player.
If I write this, it is because it is music to my ears that Gevlon posted this. Too many times have I expressed similar ideas only to be drowned out by meaningless rethoric! Hopefully this will get around and who knows, these good ideas may even get popular. Rome was not built in a day, that is for sure, but it got built eventually.
It has been a while since I was directly involved in guild recruitment, but gear was never the first thing I looked at.
The first thing that any guild should consider is the application. If a player clearly shows that he knows his stuff and is dedicated to the guilds goals, the guild shouldn't care what his gear looks like. Take a guild like Ensidia for example. A couple of their recent trial interviews show that some of there successfull applicants were Alliance rerolls. You can't get more undergeared then that, but they obviously recognized their quality and gave them a shot.
The second thing, you should look at is a Combat log if one is available. Numbers can be misleading but they never lie. Applicants on the other hand are very capable of lying. The great thing about Combat logs also is that it will tell you stuff that most people leave out, like how often they die to fire and such. DPS is only one aspect of the evaluation.
Finally, in some situations gear should be considered. Beggers can't be choosers. If your really hurting for players picking up an average application with good gear might make sense. Also, if yoru trying to deside between two lack luster apps then the one with the better gear will probably win out.
Gear isn't the best thing to make your choices on, but sometimes you don't have much else to go on.
At this point, gear = effort. If an applicant doesnt have 2pc T8.5 (helm and chest) and 2pc T9.0 (gloves and shoulders) they haven't put the effort in their character that is required for endgame raiding.
This is interesting analysis, but what strikes me is that this is the kind of petty crap I want to avoid in a game world. I have to do plenty of this kind of analysis in the real world. But I guess such is life.
Maybe this isn't the Goblin way, but I do most of the recruiting for the #1 horde raiding guild on an admittedly backwater server. (Working on just Firefighter and three trees up for the 25 man meta.) My philosophy is this:
Skill is greater than gear, but those with skill will be smart enough to have adequate gear.
As long as you have gear close to a tier below our current raids (even easier now) and more importantly that you made good choices with that gear (hit cap, enchanted, proper gems, etc...) then we will give you a shot. I even maintain an alt that has never stepped raided in a 25 man raid or gotten any BoE epics that aren't available on the AH for a reasonable price as an example to applicants.
As an addendum to your post, add #4 for advice:
#4 Use proper grammar on your guild application. I understand that it is not a job application but if you can not be bothered to take the time to proofread, answer all the questions with more than three letters and not use constant abbreviations or 'leetspeak' in an application, then the odds are that we are going to treat your application with the same effort that you put into it.
Simple question: What gear is "good gear"?
It's a very subjecive term. For some people "good gear" is everything of ilvl 213 and beyond. For others "good gear" is no less than BiS.
Can you specify please?
"LF Tank for 10 Nax. Link achievment, must have T8.5 gear."
1) You have 2 healers, one with naxx/heroic dungeon, other with ulduar gear. You never saw them. Which one you take?
2) Having low gear gives you little to no room for mistakes. I doubt you Gev 1 shootted all bosses with blue gear for example. Could you have done it with ilvl226+ gear? The chances go up for sure.
@Doug - If you don't have 2pc T8.5 and 2pc T9 you're not "ready" for endgame? Kiss my @ss. We raid ToC 3 times a week - 10/25 normal and 10 heroic - and we go straight down a DKP list for who gets the trophies for T9. I'd upgraded a lot of pieces, so I could, y'know, do better DPS, so I was low on the list, and because of this I don't have any T9 yet.
Making generalizations is stupid, kids. I do my job and until my raid leader tells me he's dissatisfied, I'm happy.
i think he ment the 't9' pieces obtained just from the new badges (for daily heroics for instance)
thats correct only if you assume the applicant wanted to raid/raided long before he wrote the apply.
@Doug: I stick to my 4pc t8.5 on my hunter until I can have 4pc t9.x in one move.
@Hugues: "This only shows that guild officers tend to be as lazy and uninspired as the majority of players." Because in good guilds everyone becomes an officer? I don't think so. If you can't prove to them in your application that you can do the job without BiS then YOU failed. Calling an officer lazy/uninspired is certainly the way to get into their guild ... NOT.
@Gevlon: If 10 people, that know each other, that know the encounters in and out, who have the dedication to show the world without needing anything, and obviously with enough time, can do ulduar10 in blue gear --- while the same people are among the few that did hardmodes which only 1-4% of the world did, tells me one thing only: gear matters more for the average (i.e. the other 96%-99%). BTW, is there a way to tell the stats of the tanks just by looking at the webstats. If not I'd like to know the items they had because I would love to equip my 75warrior with that and see how good I will do.
@All: Please stop the gear-argument. If gear weren't important than any encounter would be doable nacked - I dare you to show me the stats for such a run xD (at least there would be no repair-costs). It's not skill>gear, it's skill+gear>gear.
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