Greedy Goblin

Saturday, September 19, 2009


Today morons of the week should be here, but life has overwritten it. Some, already compiled morons will be posted tomorrow.

Long story short: I no longer raid with Windwalkers.

On April 28 I wrote my advertisement. My main request was "1-2 raids in the "not firstkill but not altrun either" period, somewhere 3-4 weeks after firstkill, when it's still challenging (for me). It's quite OK for me to be in the starter group cleaning the first bosses, and when the progression bosses come, leave the instance. If I keep on wiping the raid, I accept being switched out. I'm fully aware that while I'm not a bad raider, I'm definitely not someone you want on a server firstkill."

The advertisement attracted many guilds, unfortunately most of them were US guilds (most of my readers are from the USA) who missed the "EU only" request. Some noob guilds also wrote, they were actually sad to be unable to notice how bad they are. Two serious answers came, one of them was from the GM of Windwalkers.

Since then, I raided with them. They always did their part of the contract, and I assume they would keep doing it. The request quoted above would mean farmruns now and hard mode runs only after they are farming them for a month. I also always did my part on the contract, paying the 5K/week, getting good publicity for them and making good goldmaking ideas.

What changed then if both parties did their part? We did. The reasons why we made that contract changed so much that the contract is not good for us anymore. We failed to agree on a new contract so we must part. It's not a "tragedy" or a "treachery". We were never friends. It was business.

The guild had very little money when we met. Repair+consumables money was a serious issue for several raiders after a long wipenight. Today they have 100K+ in the bank after having guildbank repairs, free consumables, free enchants, free crusader orbs and so on. Since May I've paid 95K G to the bank and also gave them several goldmaking tips. They no longer need my money.

They provided full Ulduar 25 and ToC25. I've seen it, I did not need any more farm raid.

Theoretically we should have encountered this problem long-long ago and solve it one way or another. Like always, the problem could remain under the carpet because of a suboptimal situation.

At first Ulduar hard modes had a bad healing design. There were unavoidable AoE everywhere. Druids dominated the healing meters with rejuv-WG, while tank healing wasn't a big issue. Priests could keep up with PoH-CoH, but poor shamans and paladins suffered. Out of the 6-7 healing position there was 1 for tank healer, 1 for mixed, 5 was for CoH priests and trees. It was bizarre that the JoL-retripala healed more than the disc priest (incl shields) and the holy pala. I was a tree. Having a tree, even an undergeared and low-attendance one was a bliss. Soon I was invited for every fight I wanted to come. I was asked to join on hard modes. And I liked it very much. The normal farmruns seemed boring compared to the hard mode attempts.

Secondly, Ulduar was already cleared and most people geared up. Those who just wanted ilvl226 started to not show up, both in the guild and other similar guilds. You know how the servers get full after content patch and slowly dry out when the gear is gathered. On the top of that, the summer was on us. The guild (and the others too) were fighting over only a handful of applicants. They could use every able member and I was one.

I had much more enthusiasm for hard modes than I've expected. I wanted to be in a good guild to prove that the goblin way works, not because I really wanted to raid. My original plan was (as the recruitment says) to raid a few to show the readers I can (and therefore you can too if you follow the goblin way). But as soon as I've heard "you will not defeat the council of iron so easily invaders" or "Now why would anyone do that...", I forgot the blog and for 3 hours I was a happy tree.

ToC has much more balanced damage model. Druids are no longer overpowered. The patch lured the players back, the guild (over)filled its ranks (I guess blue ulduar helped in that), and found one really good resto druid. There is no longer a place for an extra tree in progression raids. We could go back to the original scheme (farm raids) but I don't want to.

I could look for another guild now but no point. Both my goblin raiding points are completely proved:
  • you can see any content if you pay for a tour to a guild that farms it. You can even do it permanently, attending farmruns every week. If (close to the) top gear is what you want, you can get it (though there is no point if you won't use it)
  • you can buy yourself a trial position into a hard mode progression. Staying in depends only on your performance. I guess the happy trolls will be swarming "you've failed lololol". Well I may did fail as raider. But the point of the blog is advocating the goblin way. Being a good raider has nothing to do with being a goblin. The main goblin statement that there is no such thing as "I didn't have a chance, it's not my fault". I couldn't get into permanent hard modes, it was my fault either because I sucked or because I did not have enough attendance. But the goblin way got me the chance. It can get it to you too.


Sardonica said...

Well look on the bright side - 5k less guild fees a week means you'll get to gold cap quicker! You definately proved your point GG - respect to you for showing the truth.

Chris said...

Not only that, but you also learned EXACTLY what it takes to make it in a top notch guild if you ever decide you want to tackle the progression hard stuff again.

spinksville said...

I wondered if you might be too good a player to be satisfied with farm raids. But I think you proved your point, plus you got to have some fun along the way.

Geforce said...

Advocate the goblin way in 5v5 arena's perhaps, would be interesting to see imo if it would even be possible these days.

Chris said...

@geforce wouldnt really work i dont think as top notch pvp teams arent really expensive, and are much more reliant on every member pulling max weight.

Gusztav said...

@Geforce: I like you idea, I'd very much like to see that! _As I imagine_ HC pvpers are lacking money cause all they do is playing in all brackets with 1 or 2 characters

ZacharyPruckowski said...

"Advocate the goblin way in 5v5 arena's perhaps, would be interesting to see imo if it would even be possible these days."

I doubt it'd work. In a 5-person arena team, each team member counts a lot more than in a 25-man raid. Additionally, in arena, the level of challenge is non-constant, since it's against other players. There's no "good enough to beat enrage" in arena, because once you start winning, you start facing better and better teams. Unless you're with world-best partners who can hit 3k rating while carrying you, you're always holding them back.

Further, arena people don't need gold as much raiders - you can't buy more than entry PvP gear with gold, they use fewer consumables and they don't have much in the way of repair costs. So a 2400-rated Arena team doesn't need gold in the way a Grand Crusader guild does.

William said...

you could easily be a better player than just 'farm content' honestly. also, some arena palyers do pve as well, and you might not be able to buy your way into a top 5s team, but can definately get carried in 2s, MAYBE 3s, however as a healer it would be difficult if you have zero pvp skill.

Olga said...

Couldn't the result be the one possible? I mean, you wouldn't pass the bought trial just for the same reasons for that you couldn't apply without gold. No matter is it skill or attendance. You can skip gear check, but there's no gear check anymore - if you're able to attend raids and perform well, for that amount of free time in a week with your skill you could get yourself enough gear to apply.

Sorry to hear about what happenned. I wish you to find a way to get your fun of that game, and success with it :)

Anonymous said...

i wonder what you plan to do ingame the next time.
You will be goldcapped again in a few weeks.
From what i read you do enjoy seeing endgame content (aka. raiding hardmodes with a decent guild).

I guess the next step is buying your way into progression raids with some top-guild. But then - they need performance+attendance over money to the guild bank...

So - what are your plans?

rev said...

I'm also wondering whats the next step for you now? If I'm not mistaken you stated, that if you wouldn't find a raiding guild back then, you would quit WoW, because there was no point for you playing. What's your current PoV?

pat said...

An interesting question: does this imply you met first hand the fundamental incompatibility between the progression raid wishes (just the best players, when they need them, with the need of filtering) and the majority of the player base wishes (fun when I want it, regardless of skill, gear, atendance, etc.)?

If so, does this change your previous views regarding "welfare epics", "nerfing hard modes", etc.? This is not a troll, just honest curiosity.

Chris said...

it sounds like your offer to pay was what got you into your first few raids, but your skill is what kept you around raiding with them.

I think if you try, you will find a casual (NOT M&S) guild that will be more accepting of your schedule.

in the meantime, i'm excited to hear more stories about your alt :)

Leviathan said...

Hi Gevlon , if you ever consider going to germany i suggest baelgun horde site to you. Why, because we have the most fucked up economy you have ever seen, prices jump up and down daily by more than 60% and auctioneer fails to give me good data to this day. I honestly dont believe that you can make it to the gold cap without exxcesive farming there.

Second reason is that on this server there are many , many extremly good raiders (hardcore progression) who are lacking the money. Everything on our server can be achieved with money from kora loot to buying pug loot to buying raid loot.

I honestly think Baelgun whould be interesting , because ask yourself does the goblin way work if you are not familiar with the language of the server. Does the Goblin way work on a strange server with a lot more alliance than horde?

I dont think so , but you may prove me wrong.

Densu said...

Just go to koearan servers and buy way into korean Pugs. =p

Ayonel said...

I think this conclusion makes perfect sense. I think most people, certainly most of the people I have raided with, only want to run things for gear or the achievement and then have no further interest in said content, so the fact that you stuck around so long is impressive. (It sounds like, as you indicate, you were actually having fun, and that is a good thing.)

So for most of the people out there, paying a lump sum for a few run throughs with dibs on gear would make more sense than actually putting in the effort of being a good raider.

. said...

This is off target about GG not raiding with windwalkers - but its still a Goblin post.

At risk of being labeled a M&S, is their an AH addon that does the following simply and ignores all the other bullshit:

Fix a price for an item, remembers it, undercuts its way by a set amount to a minimum level, and can handle batch posting.

Anyone have suggestions? Or can explain how to make a common addon do that?

All I need are those 4 things.
1-Fix price at 17 gold.
2-Remember it
3-Undercut to a minimum of 3 gold.
4-Batch post.

I can use Auctioneer, Actionator, QA2 ... and do. But I'll get enough profit to satisfy me with just those 4 functions and have more time to play. (Market prices are volatile and its becoming a pain in the ass frankly. Nothing is stable.)

Kerk said...

...and by 'can use them' I mean - minimally use them - Auctioneer is full of bells and whistles I don't care about. Just want the 4 things... Thanks.

Malstram said...

Gevlon. I'd \hHate to see you go but looks like as you mentioned before this might be the end of your wow career.

1) You already know the "gimmick" to making gold. Yes, it's work but you have that down to the point you almost seem bored. "can do this in your sleep"

2) You are used to hard mode raiding/top end raiding. From your statements on the blog, I conclude you are definitely "good enough" but for whatever reasons seems like not the optimal decision for Windtalkers to give you a progression spot.

Conclusion: unless another EU top progression guild wants to give you a try, looks like you might be a very bored goblin.

To be honest, going over your blog you have "done" what you set out to do. You have proven over and over again tried and true practices that any moron can follow to making gold as long as they pay attention. Much of it had to do with analysis and thinking things through. I have only had enough time to put your "tips" into effect on a small scale and yet whenever I dedicate myself to making gold using your ideas I have a constant supply of gold.

Again, Although I had to see you go, perhaps it is time for you to engage in other more challenging pursuits and leave WOW behind (or at least on the "back burner".)

Good luck whatever your decision is. :)

Wooly said...

Druids being better AoE healers then priests sounds like a challenge I would love take on. I've always been so high on the stats compared to anyone else I've ever played with that it was almost embarrassing. Most priests can't play their class, their rotation is horrible. But the nr1 healer in our server's nr1 guild is also a priest, so I have that on my side. I've dualspecced my feral druid after I took my time of from my priest, and even though I loved renew and figured that more hots would be even better, I just can't the output on that druid I expected. And believe me I've practiced.

So, you might be right, you probably are and I can't disprove it, but I'm just wondering if there has ever been a good priest on your team.

William said...

Look at the top effective healing charts at WMO

The majority of the top are druids, paladins, and then a few shamans. There are no priests whatsoever.

Anonymous said...

In general it seems I read more about people being "bored" or "done everything" regarding the game than I do about "excitement" or "looking forward." I know I am feeling that way myself. Is this a sign of things to come? What could be done to keep the game interesting to people who have played for a long time?

Sid said...

Congratulations Gevlon.

You proved your point. And had fun in the way.

Off-Topic: Is there gonna be a Jewelcrafting guide to make money anytime soon?

Sara said...

Is perhaps buying a progression spot the next move?

I was fascinated by the Korean gold PuGs article too.

I think there's still more world for a goblin to conquer.

Anonymous said...

Whats next for the great goblin?
I wonder if you can buy your way into one of the top tier "world first" guilds.
Maybe Ensidia should be your next target?

Anonymous said...

This was an even better read than morons of the week. :D
BTW, buying yout way into arena would be a really interesting subject.

Lupius said...

AoE healing charts really don't mean much for most fights. The fights that are listed either have healing scale with the number of people standing in the fire, or require priests to mass dispel from time to time.

LaminatedSmore said...

If you're bored of WoW, why not try Eve online? It seems to be a game with much more focus on making gold.

Previously you've shown that it's possible to get rich on a completely new server, so why not try a completely new game?

Cedul said...

Gevlon, I'm curious. You've said you want to eliminate socials by spreading goblin philosophy. This would cause the M&S to leave. Thing is, that would leave us with all goblins, which, while very good for instances and raiding, would decrease your profit. Why, then, are you doing this? Do you expect it to fail, or at least, not succeed fully? Point out my errors in logic.

Mel said...

hum could be a rather interesting topic....

But really this is like the blues vrs purple discussion, what does it matter who is on top of the healing meter? What matters is that the class does the best of its abilities, so the druid hots every one up and overheals by 75% the priest heals as needed, who is the better healer?

Mage constantly crits for 10k tank looses aggro and mob eats mage then healer... vrs mage who crits once in awhile hitting 5k but doesnt wipe the raid

luv2bdryvin said...

Not sure if this was a "I'm looking for interesting things to do on wow that will be a challenge" post, but if you are, I'll throw in my 2¢.

I would love to see you try and start a guild fro progression 10 mans (or 25... but that would be a lot harder.)

I think blog posts about how to find non-fail players, how to delegate, how to deal with the social crap that is unavoidable in a goblin way.

Personally, I think this would be the toughest challenge for you, but I would give anything to see this kind of thing done in a goblin way.

Don't give up the blog! I'll have nothing to read before bed anymore.

Anonymous said...

I agree with a previous post. I would love to see you create a new guild under pure goblin management. If everything you have said is true, that guild will be very successful.

Wooly said...


I do see quite a few priest there, but they're indeed in low numbers.

These stats look very different from what I've noticed on my realm (I like to keep track of the better guilds) and somethings just seem strange about these numbers. Like that most of those topping healers were obviously carrying a group of slacking healers. I've rarely seen healing numbers that far off in one group. I've also noticed paladins more on the bottom then on the top f.e., what does that say? They seem to only reach those numbers when they're the only healing paladin.

Anyway, it's nice to be able to show this to some of the druids I know. And for my own curiosity I would still like median and average numbers too, this alone just leaves too many questions.

Alex said...

I second the motion to see Goblinism in Eve Online.

Goth said...

Gevlon, this in no way was a failure on your part because you achieved something that most casual raiders will never see. As casual, my label not yours, I mean those that do not have the time to put into a full time raid slot. Keep shopping around, I am sure that with your experience from your last adventure you will have a much better guild app this time around or you can continue the goblin path and find a better arrangement the next time around.

Niz said...

Goth, I think you failed to grasp the point Gevlon was making: there is no failure on either part, just the terms of the contract which are not applicable anymore given the changed situation.
WW have a bank full of gold and consumables, and Gevlon experienced what he wanted to experience. Both have gained from the exchange, and the diminishing returns affect this deal now. Better not waste anyone's time anymore.

Anonymous said...

Look on the bright side - now you have realized that you are another M&S and you can stop picking on casuals "i-dont-see-the-game-as-gevlon-does" players. I told you that you sucked, and that a really good player is not saying "im good, you all are bad", "M&S go home", and such stuff everyday. just play and enjoy. you can buy a spot in a farm raid, but never ever will be able to buy a spot in a progresion raid, this cannot be done with gold in a serious guild. I'm a huge fan of your gold threads, but i absolutely hate your "i hate M&S" threads. gl.

Gabesz said...

Thanks for this experiment Gevlon, now all goblins knows its working!

If you are up for new challenges, please try to make gold with other professions, and publish your findings! A lot of people asking it every day.

Anonymous said...

I'd like to hear your gold making stories on a high population server.

I've learned a lot from this blog, but I'm still of the opinion that it's much more difficult to make that much gold on a high population server with mature markets in all areas.

Malstram said...

>> but never ever will be able to buy a spot in a progresion raid, this cannot be done with gold in a serious guild.<<

OK. I know this is a troll, however I just had to point out the obvious since you mention it.

1) of course a progression spot can be bought with gold in a "serious" guild. Now, let's be serious. A "serious guild" is an oxymoron. After all, how do you take a game seriously? :) In the end the high end achievements can be bought with gold etc because they aren't really much more than pixels, they are not "REAL life", ie. SERIOUS acheivements.

>> I'm a huge fan of your gold threads, but i absolutely hate your "i hate M&S" threads. gl.<<

Could it be because you are M&S? :) I mean really, if you've read Gevlon's site at all, you would know his definition of M&S goes beyond WOW to include any peron/persons who invoke the idea of community/niceness/"serious standards" etc to have serious people conform to their standards or give them a free ride. Enjoy the look in the mirror much?

Anonymous said...

1) serious guilds exits. and if you take this game as a game, you don´t have a spot in my guild.

2) i'm not social at all. if you dont't play as good as you are expected to, you get /gkicked in a second.

3) i´m not crying everywhere about how many M&S are all over the game. i just play. i have never met a really good player crying and crying and crying...

4) not to agree with the OP doesn't imply that you are a troll.

5) if you are good enough, you don´t have to buy anything in a progression raid.

6) we have never sold any achievement, neither amaniwarbear or anything. and we will never sell. not everything is on sale.

Willowbear said...

Your goblin approach proved one point, but I think your blue Ulduar has the most impact. When I run into those tired conversations about "we need better gear to beat this" I respond, "hey did you hear about those guys who cleared Ulduar10 in only blue gear?". Gets the point across pretty fast and 'that' conversation ends.

MyName said...


>6) we have never sold any achievement, neither amaniwarbear or anything. and we will never sell. not everything is on sale.

Which only shows that one couldn't buy achievements or a spot from *your* srs raiding guild, not that one couldn't buy such things from *any* srs raiding guild.