Greedy Goblin

Thursday, August 13, 2009

Can't herd morons

Have you ever noticed winning or losing series in BG-s? You log in for a daily PvP quest, and lose. And lose once more. Then 9 more times. Another time you log in, you win, then win again. Some people experience it as "we always lose". It's an illusion, simply people remember losing 10x in a row but forget winning 10x another week. Also if someone goes for the daily quest, he wins once, but loses 10x before giving up. But the series themselves are not illusions. There are winning and losing series in BG-s.

When I posted about randomly wandering retards in WSG, I got lot of comments blaming me for not even trying to organize people. So I tried. I tried so hard that my previously abandoned arcane mage collected 6 deadly and 2 hateful PvP items in the process and almost honor and mark-capped. First, let me share my experience in AV.

When I started playing, we (horde) were losing 99% of the matches. Most people believed that it cannot even be won, the point is to burn the alliance towers for some bonus honor and lose fast. The strategy was:
  • simply rush forward on the right side of the map to Balinda (4)
  • some people stop and burn Stoneheart bunker (5)
  • after killing Balinda, rush to Icewing bunker (2), leaving 2-3 people there
  • rushing to the ally base (1), capping everything there
  • spamming "who's tank?", "everyone in", "don't pull him out FFS"
  • watching "alliance won" screen
It doesn't take a genius to see why we had no chance: the ally bunker has archers who shoot flag cappers, must be killed first. That's about 10-15 secs advance to the ally. The ally base is larger than the horde, and the DB bunkers are further from the boss lair. So it's easier for a stealther ally to move unnoticed and recap bunkers. (Granted, it's easier for a horde stealther to recap aid station). Anyway, ally bunkers fell 30-50 secs after horde towers (even if they were not recapped), so ally always started the bossfight sooner, killed faster.

I created an easy counter strategy:
  • I spammed "Defend Galvangar, it's easy honorfarm there and you slow down ally progress, giving us time to win"
  • Myself rushed to Stoneheart Graveyard (3) and capped it.
  • Many ally died at Galvangar, they couldn't resurrect at SH (since I capped it), they were thrown back to Stormpike GY at the ally base, far from the battlefield
  • Our Balinda-rushers killed her and tried to rush forward. They met with the resurrected ally near Icewing bunker (2) and SH GY, creating a stalled frontline.
  • Our people died at Galvangar resurrected at Iceblood Graveyard (9) close to our towers and started recapping it. The dead allies were thrown back to the ally base, far from any objectives. Soon there were no allies below the front at SH-IW.
  • As soon as SH GY was fully taken, the hordies started to spawn there. With the arriving reinforcements from the cleared back, they were capable of pushing the front back, halfway between SH and the ally base.
  • Since all horde towers and 2 ally towers are below the front, we had 150-250 points advance (depending on the ally could or could not kill Galvangar)
  • We won, with huge bonus honor
At first no one listened to me. But I kept mocking those who rush, calling them names and pointing out that their rush always lose. I also used the Insignia + invisibility to sneak to Frostwolf Aid station (the lowest graveyard) and recap it. Since I never missed to announce it, I started to get some reputation among the frequent players. Soon more and more people started to join me at Galvangar. Some because he believed my plan, others because of "nothing matters why not". When I saw enough players going that way, I went to SH GY and capped it. Besides "who the #@$ capped SH?" spam, it worked like a charm. The ally wiped at Galvangar. The front formed. The back towers were saved. We didn't just win. The ally, not being to handle the situation, kept desperately trying to break the front to Galvangar, ignoring everything else. Some stealthers got to ally base and burned both towers.

The side that have lost 99% for more than a week won with Frostwolf Perfection.

It was amazing. For a day or two we won every single mach. Quarter of them with perfection. Practically anyone who bothered to log in as horde on those days got the achievement. In the other half it was often close to the achievement, simply the ally died too fast for the bunkers to burn down. Most of them died on horseback, trying to ride through the front. They were like badly scripted bots running into their doom.

The miracle last for 2 days. The ally started adapting. While the mindless bulk still wiped in Galvangar's lair, some did intelligent moves. They defended SH GY or recapped it. They took SF GY (6) and defended it. They skipped Galvangar and directly went for a tower. They capped Frostwolf GY (11) and defended it. They guarded Balinda. On the next day we no longer had anything near perfection. We had 80-100 reinforcements left on winning. We lost some matches.

On the fourth day, the bulk of the ally skipped Galvangar and burned everything else and won since we couldn't get past IW. When I tried to tell them to leave Galvangar and recap towers instead they spammed something like "lol noob Galv is the key" or "Galv = win" or "I got achie because of Galv noob". But the most devastating was someone spamming my original "Defend Galvangar, it's easy honorfarm there and you slow down ally progress, giving us time to win" macro. We lost that day all the time, as the hordies, like badly scripted bots defended Galv who was attacked by only a few stray allies while all our towers were burned down.

The tide started to turn back in the following days as more and more people said "we never win here, cap towers and lose fast". We were rushing the base again. Since the ally strongly guarded every tower while we just capped their bunkers and run away, we pulled the boss sooner and won sometimes. A week after the glorious moment of Frostwolf perfection we were exactly doing that we did before I started, rushed for the ally base.

So the cycle on a BG:
  1. your side plays strategy A, you lose
  2. you formulate strategy B, no one listens to you
  3. you spam a lot, get lot of insults, and be /ignore-ed by half of the battlegroup as smartass
  4. some people starts to listen to you, come to the same conclusion or just desperate enough to try anything
  5. enough people does strategy B, you win
  6. people learn that strategy B wins, they do it in larger and larger numbers
  7. your side keeps playing B, you always win. From the point of view of the opposite faction, this is Step 1, so the cycle starts again.
Assuming that there is no IWIN strategy in a BG (as none should be on an unbiased playfield), the cycle runs forever. The problem is that the common player is too dumb to adapt on his own. They follow a pre-written strategy ignoring the situation. Since their behavior is repetitive, the smart people on the other side can formulate a counter-strategy therefore defeating yours. While you can see it, you can't do anything as you are alone, as the mindless bulk won't help you, believing that you are a noob who deviate from the "imba plan".

The "imba plan" was rewarded with victories enough times to make our little bots follow it long after it works. If it is frustrated by defeat enough times, the strategy dies and the chaotic "we always lose let's farm honorkills" state is reached, making it possible to a new strategist to step up.

So for insane amount of effort, collecting insults and /ignores, you can be that strategist. The fun fact is that the new strategy would come anyway, by the work of someone else, or simply by trial-and error. Some people could try to farm honorkills at point X and if taking X is a crucial point in the next winning strategy, they will win, enforcing this behavior.

The morons lack exactly what makes us intelligent people: analyzing the current situation and adapt it. If I see an undefended tower, I cap it. If I see huge defense there, I find something else. They don't. They just follow some "IWIN plan" that worked some time ago, skipping undefended points (SH GY anyone?) and rushing against 5 enemies spamming "why no1 helps ffs noobs".

They are bots! They follow rules in their lives, following orders of their boss/teacher/mum/peer group, never thinking for themselves. They don't know why they do what they do, they just do as told.

I've seen the same in Isle on Conquest (without me giving strategies). When I got there, the horde won every match by taking hangar and jumping to ally base. They had many "all to hangar", "HANGER = WINN", "nudes at hangar" macros. The horde won every single match for a day within a few minutes. Of course someone (or just blind luck) at the ally formulated the effective counter-strategy: ally also rushed to hangar, forming a battle. The dead hordies resurrected at the hangar, the dead allies resurrected in their keep, massacring the incoming paratroopers (the dropping takes 20 seconds, so the ally have time to resurrect before the resurrected hordies would arrive). After the 10-th loss, the people were still spamming their "hangar = win" macros and rushed there like badly scripted bots.

After a day many hordies went elsewhere in frustration, making the ally win the hangar, and jump to their deaths in the horde keep, turning the tide once more.

Conclusion: most people in BGs are mindless. They either wander randomly or following some preset and inflexible strategy. The side with the better strategy wins. If your side wins in rows, be happy and farm honor. If your side loses in rows, check back a day later instead of frustrating yourself trying to tell others what would be obvious to them if they would have a brain. Or set up a premade.


Anonymous said...

Nothing but correctness in this post Gevlon.

Nils said...

Very good.
Now, the only thing I wonder is:
How long did it take you to figure that out?

If it really took from introduction of AV until now, that were a perfect explanation for the status quo.

duncan said...

I considered making a video about people in av. no need now!

Anonymous said...

It's not the fact that 95% of people want to be told what to do; it's the fact that the other 5% of people try to save the herd in some fashion. Further proof that Gevlon is far more social than he wants to admit.

Let the scum die.

richard said...

very long but shows mentalities of idiots very well

God said...

Pretty much hit the nail on the head.

The only way I can think of that would possibly break the cycle is to always deliver wins, and become known for that. i.e. do so many bg's that you manage to become recognizable as someone who (Insert random idiot) should listen to. I'm not even sure you can do that with cross realm battlegrounds though, never took the time to try. Probably too many idiots.

Pangoria Fallstar said...

Too bad I lack patience for organizing a bunch of idiots. BUT, in AV on my battlegroup it's not about a prelaid plan, but adapting to what is going on. We tend to win those.

thedoctor said...

haha...good read.

"who the #@$ capped SH?"

They say it everytime I do it. I lol'd in real life when I read that.

Nils said...

What many people don't understand in WoW BGs is that death is just a delayed teleport that heals people to full.

The trick in any BG with more than one Graveyard is to teleport your dead enemies to a place of your choice. In AV this often - but not always - is Snowfall.

Anonymous said...

Both sides lose AV for exactly the same reasons. M&S run straight to Galv or Belinda, and/or zerg RH without capping any graveyards. Think this is only way to win, won't try anything else, perfect for other side to counter. M&S, especially DKs and Ret Pallys won't guard anything. Want personal dps/kills.

Winning side will have a few that will go back and recap GYs around FoS, i.e. SH, IB, neutral & counter attack at RH and FoS. Control those, go back and recap, other side gets turtled resulting in win. M&S believes that turtle should be avoided at any cost so won't do it.

Rybosh said...

Great post except for one point. You can cap alliance bunkers when archers are up. You need to stand in between wall and flag to break their LOS.

Anonymous said...

I think this is why most preform AV group win. They come in under the leadership of someone and wanting to win.

Now if only these people wanted to do the achievements instead of winning for more than quick honor. I had to "disobey" instruction and take both mines for the achievements.

I remember once being on the defense and sending Mulveric to the Alliance base. According to a friend, it became mayhem there as almost noone knew what was happening. I also almost managed to gather enough drops to summon our elemental boss in the middle but the opponent lost too many reinforcements.

Anonymous said...

I agree that people are locked in to strategy and only remember the latest streak. And think they always lose if they don't win 4 in a row or 5 cap AB.

Mocking and spaming BG chat with strats don't usually work for me. Usually that makes them want to do the standard strategy more.

I've found its best to lead the way. Usually 2-3 will follow. If not switch to solo or duo if you brought someone with you. 1 person can slow down the galv/drek fight. Warlocks/Priests/Warriors can fear the group. Shaman/Mages can polymoprph the tank.

Even if you aren't good enough to this recalling and annoying them will play into their kill nubs mentality and get them off the objective. A lot of times AV is lost by seconds so if you can keep Galv/Drak alive for 30 seconds longer you win.

Recapping towers is only a good strategy if others help or if and only if the alliance is stupid. Usually there is at least 3 warlocks/priests in each tower. so its not easy to solo unless all of them are < 75.

Doug said...

When you defend Galv, the alliance will eventually just skip him and shift towards the all out zerg on Drek.

The only for sure win is to play defence, and adapt to counter the opponent's zerg. Then once the stalemate/turtle is established, simply win the resource war.

If you are a healer, this means heal your ass off. If DPS then pay attention to the front and dont overextend or range your healers.

Look at the leaderboards. Sort by healing/damage/killing blows. Set up a targeting macro and spam it to take out the opponents MVPs every time they show up.

Arnock said...

I agree 100%

The problem, is that soo many people want to treat PvP like a PvE encounter. 'if we do et dis way we win!!1' The problem is, unlike bosses, players can realize why they're losing and adapt, and they wont always react the same way.

That's the main reason why we always tended to lose in AB when I played alliance, people spent so much time spamming their "BS IS KEY" macros and spend the whole battle zerging the blacksmith, while running straight past an unguarded or minimally guarded flag. They had the one strat stuck in their head so hard, they refused to listen to advice.

Markco said...

If you just want to win you can charge into van's room with 15 good people and kill him. Also, an ice mage can run into the last graveyard's guards, iceblock, and then someone else can cap the flag. He'll occupy the archers as well.

Nils said...

The problem, is that soo many people want to treat PvP like a PvE encounter. 'if we do et dis way we win!!1' The problem is, unlike bosses, players can realize why they're losing and adapt, and they wont always react the same way.

That's the main reason why we always tended to lose in AB when I played alliance, people spent so much time spamming their "BS IS KEY" macros and spend the whole battle zerging the blacksmith, while running straight past an unguarded or minimally guarded flag. They had the one strat stuck in their head so hard, they refused to listen to advice.

It's hard to believe some of your readers are really that dumb, Gevlon - sorry of that was too clear. Let me call them M&S instead.

Has it ever occured to you that the players on the other side are humans as well?
The "M&S" percentage over there is identical to yours on average.

RyanC said...

I have refused to play AV for pretty much the reasons outlined here.

As an intelligent person with critical thinking skills (top 5% of college class, high paying Finance job, 18k lifetime HKs on Shaman, 15k lifetime HKs on Warlock, both Exalted with the Frostwolf) I ran those BGs in TBC because it was the best investment of my time and my time is expensive.

(One does not graduate with distinction by farming nodes or playing WSG to exalted; one serves Orange Julius at the mall by day doing that with their free time)

I would play only on AV weekend to maximize gains, and what was the Horde's brilliant strategy?

Lose quickly, for the honor.

The day someone develops a computer that can punch people in the face, I will buy it no matter what it costs.

Because if you agree to lose quickly, BY DEFINITION, you make the Alliance strategy WIN QUICKLY.

The only correct strategy to adopt, is the one that maximizes honor per hour. Period.

Your experience is not unique...there is a reason Armies have less strategic planners than they do grunts. And by grunts, I'm referring to the maximum level of intellect of your average person in AV.

The only thing to do, is to try to get a premade where everyone is on-board with the strategy and anyone not gets a swift kick and must deal with the unwashed masses.

P.S. You'd be amazed what you can do with some Inglorious Basterds...aka a small group of people dedicated to recapping the bunkers both sides leave very, very undefended (or one poor sucker you can gank). It's about the only way a small intelligent flexible group can turn the tide against 35 randomly paired mouthbreathers.

Their responsiveness counters group stupidity when used strategically.

Fight the good fight, Double-G!

Nils said...

As an intelligent person with critical thinking skills (top 5% of college class, high paying Finance job, 18k lifetime HKs on Shaman, 15k lifetime HKs on Warlock, both Exalted with the Frostwolf) I ran those BGs in TBC because it was the best investment of my time and my time is expensive.

No comment.

I would play only on AV weekend to maximize gains, and what was the Horde's brilliant strategy?

Lose quickly, for the honor.

Actually I was one of those that posted this, because it was the fastest possible way to honor.

The most important property of a strategy always is its potential to actually work.

Losing AV with 2 bunkers capped every 6 min, with instantly reopeneng AVs for horde was extremely fast. Faster, indeed, than any other strategy. Due to a asymmetry in the map, Alliance is always faster if neither side defends.

Therefore the strategy to be faster than Alliance did not work. The fastest way for Horde to gain honor was to convince Alliance to not defend. And the best way to do that was to allow them to win ASAP.

Being a goblin sometimes means to maximise your gain although other people gain more this way.

Do not look at the other people! Look at yourself!

PS: That this was bad game design is out of the question.

RyanC said...

@ Nils:

No comment.

Here let me comment for you. This is the internet, you clown. Most of the people who claim they're really smart, go to work during the day shining cars or working at gas stations.

The only two people I know with decent day jobs, are me and my best friend, who works for Morgan Stanley. The rest of the boobs, apparently like yourself, are professional trollers. I'm sure that pays well.

Wow, I will say this about the average moron: you sure type fast.

Nils, now be a good lad and fetch me an Orange Julius. Mmm...frosty. Now where was I? Oh yeah, your dumb post.

Losing quickly does not maximize your honor. Being Alliance, playing against idiots who agree to lose quickly maximizes your honor.

The game is about control, and making people go where you don't want them to go (GY) and making sure when you die, you end up somewhere favorable.

If the game was about losing quickly, why not stand in the middle and just duel each other. That would technically be the fastest way to lose.

The archers have not been, nor ever will be a problem except for those who insist on fighting for the bridge, which last time I checked, is uncappable and worth zipola.

Those who run past the archers and aren't dressed in cloth, know their class, and don't suck have no problem getting inside and taking down their base.

Again, a small 5-man rearguard action that recaps Horde towers makes the Alliance zerg strategy fail.

And here I sit, responding to someone who has the freetime to post at least 4 times to this thread. Clearly your time isn't valuable. I just refreshed the page once, and there you are again. Orange Julius is almost gone. Why don't you go an fetch me another?


Anonymous said...

How I roll:

If my faction is playing a winning strategy then I play along. Winning a BG is rewarding.

If my faction is playing a losing strategy (or no strat at all) then farm honor kills / capture objectives by myself. Trying to change people's minds in a BG is difficult and frustrating. Pwning enemies who have strayed from the "herd" is fun... especially if you /emote after killing them.

Anonymous said...

Organizing AV is impossible to do in the long run with so many people in it.

AB and WSG can be done, and at least in the case of AB you can use strategies so that a premade group of 10 can go in and deal with 5 idiots and dominate every time.

Me and my friends prefer AB (7 of us) since we can usually convince a couple PUgers in the BG to listen to us and we always dominate in that case.

Nils said...

@ RyanC:
Stay calm. Nothing happend. Just cool down, ok ?

Anonymous said...

you sound like your trying far too hard to convince people of your status than you'd actually need to if it were the truth.

Nils said...

If my faction is playing a winning strategy then I play along. Winning a BG is rewarding.

Which is a perfect example of a prisoner's dilemma.

Your strategy maximizes your own benefit, but if everybody acted that way you would never win (if the other side had some more social people, who organise).

Prisoner dilemmas are one of the many enemies the goblin way of life has. Unfortunately they are quite real and very powerful. :)

River said...

A problem with the BG's as well is sometimes the BOTS. Programs set up to play for the toon. I remember when I did AV, there would be 4-5 toons running a preset course.

If the other side had less bots, or none at all then that's when we would get smashed.

Sometimes it's not that people are stupid, sometimes their not playing at all.

Baro said...

Loose translation from good old Kafka's short story The Steersman:

"What kind of people are theese? Do they think? Or do they just shamble over the earth without reason?"

You just proved once more, that the latter is all too often the case.

Anonymous said...

Which is a perfect example of a prisoner's dilemma.

@Nils : Not quite. I get to "choose" my strategy after observing my teams strategy. So I can observe what the rest of the group is doing, and then act accordingly. When my team plays a winning strategy, cooperation is optimal.

Two pieces of the prisoner's dilemma (from wikipedia) that are NOT true in BGs:

- "Cooperating is strictly dominated by defecting"

- "No matter what the other player does, one player will always gain a greater payoff by playing defect."

Nils said...

You're right. It's not a perfect prisoner's dilemma, but still:

If everybody acted the way you did, no valid strategy would ever evolve, would it?

Anonymous said...

@Nils : You are correct. I definitely admit to the fact that my strategy is somewhat parasitic in the BGs. I'm not sure how this fits into goblin philosophy - it is possibly frowned upon because I allow myself to become part of the problem.

However, I want my honor. I'm going to do what I need to do to get it efficiently.

As Gevlon shows, even if you suffer through the annoyance of organizing a PUG group filled with many, many morons, while you may get few days filled with great success and "above average" - maybe in vastly above average - honor, you ultimately end up with the garbage strategy all over again.

So work smart, not hard.

Anonymous said...

One comment for you....

Swordchucks said...

This is pure truth. Alliance behave this way, as well, on my battle group and I only venture into BGs with a group of my friends or when I'm in the mood to witness some idiocy.

Khrakan - Lvl 77 Paladin, Shandris Realm said...

I agree with the post and it highlights one of the annoying thing about Battlegrounds versus raids. Battlegrounds are not like "real" battlegrounds or raids where there are designated leaders. There's NO command control in a Battleground and so no set system to provide any level of management of the troops. All justifiable comments about the mindless nature of players aside, even if everyone were operating in true goblin fasion, that would just speed up the cycle - not necessarily solve it. Also, consider what it would be like if 20 goblins were trying to convince people to try 5 different new strategies (assuming there's not just one obvious alternative). There'd be even more confusion until the right one was worked out.

I wonder how it would be if there were an NPC or Player general who could issues orders to various groups in the raid. Orders could be tied to various objectives on the map and the groups assigned those objectives could recieve bonus honor as would the general if the orders were carried out.

That's much of what happens when a pre-made comes into a BG. They have a strategy and a leader who controls changes to the plan that inevitably occur. Since the vast majority of Battlegrounds are PUGs, that isn't a viable strategy for most Battleground players. By having some system for providing concrete orders (with rewards to provide that carrot to comply for the non-goblin hordes) there could be a measure of control and rational thought put to the conduct of the Battle. Also, it would allow individual groups to achieve something close to a win by actually doing their part even if the rest of the raid are morons.

Anonymous said...

"The day someone develops a computer that can punch people in the face, I will buy it no matter what it costs."

Do the next best thing, roll a toon on the opposite faction and hunt down the retards in the BGs.

This is the reason I made my 1st rogue. Now anytime a particularly retard person annoy me in a BG I switch factions and hunt them down and gank them repeatedly. Sometimes it costs em some honor but it sure as #$%^ is worth it.

I wish blizz had a voting system in BGs. If say, 90% of the people on your team vote against you get flagged as attackable by both sides.

Yaggle said...

I've got to make a comment on the Orange Julius thing. I don't think there is anything wrong with working at Orange Julius. There are people who are taking unemployment who think they are too good to work at Orange Julius, there are people sponging off of mom&dad instead of working such a job, there are M&S who got fired from Orange Julius, etc. Now at 40 years old I personally would feel pretty awful about myself if I worked there, but I think it's a very respectable type of first job for anybody, or also somebody who is just trying to survive right now with the scarcity of jobs. And hopefully all Orange Julius related posts, including this one, will be deleted.

Nils said...

"The day someone develops a computer that can punch people in the face, I will buy it no matter what it costs."

You .. you'd buy this computer, put it onto your desk and then.. wait for it to punch in your face?

Really I can see what you wanted to say, but this wasn't it, was it?

Anonymous said...


I hope my insecurity never creates a situation where I feel compelled to announce my accolades on the anonymous people...on a World of Warcraft blog.

I pity you.

MyName said...

I'd have to say, Gevlon, this is a perfect analysis of what happens in BGs most of the time. Especially in the two largest battles. The smaller ones, like WSG or AB or EOS, actually depend on smart players and availability of healers more than any strategy you use.

Which is why I like WSG better than AV, because all you need to have a better than even chance to win is 2-3 smart players on your team, while with AV you need a strat the dumb people can follow and then 5-7 smart players who will actually guard their towers and adjust to the situation.

RyanC said...

@ Nils

So aside from worthless BG strategy, your ability to recognize pronouns is also equally weak.

To the M&S who thinks I'm making up my job, there's a reason I find the economic blogs positively fascinating and if you want to know what I do, look up Mutual Fund Internal Wholesaler on and check average salary.

@ Yaggle
If you're working at Orange Julius, you've basically been handed a responsibility-free job. If you mess up a drink, you start over. I've heard the people in various guilds talk about their jobs, and for the most part I've more or less figred out why so many morons and slackers exist in game:

If you're a moron or slacker in game (defined by doing stupid or time wasting activities, like The Insane title, or mindless farming), you're more than likely a moron & slacker in real life. Being a moron/slacker is a frame of mind, not some affliction like a cold or flu.

Some people think outside the box, are creative, organized, analytical, and don't waste their time.

Other people are constrained by conventions and norms, routines, are comfortble with the status quo, disorganized, and doing things smarter gets overridden by doing the same thing over and over.

Working at Orange Julius is a byproduct of behaving like the latter during your formative and high school years.

Earning a salary is a byproduct of behaving like the former.

I've got one person in my guild in imminent danger of being evicted from his apartment and in the next sentence, talking about farming Frost Lotus. (Perhaps he should farm part-time job applications, instead). Another works in a gas station, and is knocked up by our druid healer (so fertile), on and on. Each one a job, not a career, where hard work is greeted with more hard work and no incremental pay.

Meanwhile, my pay is tied to performance.

I would say the percentage of people with college degrees in WoW is less than the national average.

People with limited time do the high reward, low time activities like VoA, OS25, ToC because of outside activities and they cannot commit to 15 hours/week of raiding...yet I'm 3/5 T8.25 and easily 4k+ dps in 10-mans while interrupting, dispelling, etc.

Anyway, after I listened to Marcko's post on HowIWow, it was nice knowing someone else deals with being the only person in their professional peer group who plays the game and keeps it on the DL.

Anyway, the only reason to go to AV is for experience in the 70s. Each game is roughly 1/3 a level, and the only thing I want is the mount. With that, I'm done with this thread. So fire up the blowtorches and flame away.

Anonymous said...

Holy crap that was the most entertaining thread I've read on a long time. I'm WHEEZING from laughing so hard.

I'm leveling a priest...ONE THIRD of a level per AV game? Now that's worth checking out.

And while I'm playing, I'm going to need a cool beverage. Maybe something creamy and whipped, yet tangy, with perhaps a hint of orange... If only someone could come up with that perfect combination!! I guess I'll just drink beer.

Anonymous said...

RyanC must really need acknowledgment from others, I believe that's Gevlons very definition of a social. Really, get over your insecurities, seriously I wouldn't be suprised if his choice of car was a giant SUV, always compensating for something.

But I agree that if your goal is straight honor, then a double zerg rush where one side loses by 10-15 seconds is fine. You get all the bonus honor from the capped points. As soon as people begin violating this established order, escalation on the other side becomes likely. So you just end up with giant turtles where you win, but lose in the honor/hour race. This is nothing but a Pyrrhic victory. Of course if your goal is to 'have fun' and win (or possibly marks), then trying to change the status quo would bring you to that goal.

Hyperiom said...

This is why a guild premade of 30+ people, all on vent, all committed, is guaranteed to win AV--of course, premades with vent are going to win every BG.

However, this is more advantageous in AV for the reasons posted. You can easily and effectively implement Strategy B until such time as the enemy finally adapts--but you'll always be ahead of their adaptation, because the moment you start to notice them adapt, you'll move a step ahead. If they do properly adapt and you lose a match (possibly 2) you'll immediately formulate plan C.

There was a long, detailed, very well thought-out post regarding improving BGs using a rated 3-Tier system that allowed M&S to fight against their peers, fairly good people to fight fairly good people, and pros to fight pros. Then, on BG weekends, that BG would have a special 4th tier for the cream of the crop. I thought it an excellent idea.

Peter said...

I'm Alliance, and found the best way to win and get the marks for mounts (bugger farming honour), is to go into AV in tank mode.

Basically, the group zerg rushes the first mini-boss, picking up the towers along the way.

We then zerg to Drek, usually cap the 2 gys, then cap the gy near Drek.

Wait 1 min until a couple of the towers go down, make sure I got a couple of healers with me, spam "I'm tanking ALL IN" and then do it.

90% of the times we win.

But I gotta say, the best battle I ever had in AV was one giant turtle. I must of been alive for about 5 minutes, it was just truly epic as both sides died, rezzed, then threw themselves back at each other again.

Goreon said...

Excellent article. Good read, solid content and a very logical conclusion. GG

Crucifer said...

The vast majority of people follow a herd mentality. If other people are doing something, they must be doing it for a reason, ergo you must do the same thing. Very few people stop to consider why they are doing that thing. Those that try and change the herd's direction require a number of followers to back them; once done, people see the followers following and decide that they must have a reason for doing what they are doing, and they change their plan. After a duration, everyone changes. But only until the initial person's plan works. As soon as the plan fails, people lose sight of the leader and fall back to the original mindless wandering.

Two posts in a row from Gevlon that I agree with; what is going on! :)p

Wooly said...

Well thanks a LOT!

AV used to be a easy way to grind some honor with hardly any effort as Alliance. Lately horde does seem to be changing tactics a lot. Now we have to change it too, but the old tactics of just rushing galv, towers, drek is hard to get out of people. And because it sometimes still works people won't stop.

Horde wins WSG, AV and EoS most of the time. It was nice to have this one.

It's probably clear from this post that I'm not a real pvper and that's absolutely true. I mostly play bg's because I do like some pvp items, like the shoulder enchant for my tank druid f.e. And it's a great way to level now if you're tired of questing. It's just annoying when horde really tries to win.. *sigh* ;)

Jeff said...

Excellent evaluation. Props Gelvon.

starburn said...

@Gevlon "The problem is that the common player is too dumb to adapt on his own. They follow a pre-written strategy ignoring the situation. Since their behavior is repetitive, the smart people on the other side can formulate a counter-strategy therefore defeating yours."

But the opposing side has just as many 'M&S' on. How come they are able to formulate a counter-strategy and make it work, while the smart people on your side cannot?

Interesting as well, as this is exactly the same complaint I always hear from the alliance in most BGs about horde.

goth said...

Props Gev,

I have seen the same thing in Ally Bg's to the point that I had to ask myself if anyone has a clue how to win these battles. As for Horde the strat is so easy if they would only take the upper road by Ally mine, but they never do. Instead they get cut to pieces at the choke point giving us plenty of time to knock out their reinforcements by steathing their mine and towers that are undefended. The stupidity of the player base never ceases to amaze me.

Jira said...


It's simple really. If people lose enough games in a day/two days/a week more and more will be ready to try some tactic that someone posted in the BG Chat.
That's actually the cycle that gevlon described.
Your team loses x times -> your team tries another tactic -> your team wins x times -> the other team tries another tactic -> your team loses x times.. and so on and so on.

Irghen said...

I'd like to try this excersise by myself since my side is continually losing on my battlegroup. From the post, I'd guess the thing one can do is try to accelerate the "Your team loses X tims -> your team tries another tactic".

I think that if someone took on their hands to do this over the course, of say, a month he would be able to turn the tide on a severe losing streak around. I just wish I could stomach so much AV to attempt this myself.

Anonymous said...

2 points to note:

1) why is it always hunters that spam "ALL IN!!11" when they just sit on Nub Hill outside Drek?

2) screw pre-mades. Best way for Horde to win in my battle group is when this guy multi-boxes a dozen toons, and defends Galv. Ally wipe, rez at DB, then quit.