Greedy Goblin

Monday, July 20, 2009

It's not my faliure

I've got several, surprising comments on my post about the morons in the BGs. They helped a lot about understanding why good players waste their time on idiots.

The commenters claimed that the aimless wandering of the morons is somehow my fault as I failed to coordinate them. The logic can easily be extended to any group effort. The person who shares this view believes that it's his responsibility to teach, organize, lead the others. He perceive their faliure to do more damage than the tank his own failure as he "couldn't teach them the good rotation".

I've chatted with some people I had some contact left in social suckguilds. They all believe that they can and should teach the M&S to be a good player.

No one taught me to play. I made my own calculations and found articles on EJ and other sites. Of course the creators of these resources helped me a lot, but they did not do any direct effort for me. They just put their stuff to the net for anyone. It was me who found it for myself.

Everyone is able to learn, some just choose not to. It's not your fault. You cannot help anyone who did not asked for it, and did not do all the hard work. Remember Ydraisa. She came to me, she listened and she grinded the mining nodes. She wanted, therefore did learn.

If someone fails in a BG, on a raid, or in real life, it's his and only his fault. Not yours, not the government's, not his family's. It's his and only his.

It is possible to herd the cats. Sometimes it's also profitable. But it's not your duty to herd them. You don't have to save them from their own stupidity.

If you have thoughts like "I must try harder to teach my guildmates to play", you are just hurting yourself. They don't want your teachings. They want your boosting. Leave them rot!


I've got a very interesting comment, containing an elaborated version of this wrong thinking: "People did not say that you were at fault for not coordinating others. People said that you were at fault for whining at people's inability to play sensibly in a BG - that is, in a coordinated fashion - while not doing any better yourself." This is completely wrong as it assumes that "sensibly" is "coordinated", therefore needing a coordinator and everyone (including me) failed to step up as one. We were starting to win the BG's when we started defending. We did not coordinate defense, we did it ourselves. The guy who brought the flag (usually a protwarri twink or some rogue twink) did not coordinated anything, picked the flag and ran. There were no communication between us, when he picked the flag and there were no incoming on my GF's "track humanoid", I ran out to heal the flag carrier. We just used our brains and acted independently.

If we put 25 good players together to raid, without any form of communication, I'm sure that they could clean Naxx in a few tries. The tanks would start tanking, the healers would heal and the DPS would DPS. Everyone would do something useful and sensible.

Of course coordination would help to optimize things. It's quite possible that in the above raid everyone who has tank spec tanks and everyone with healer spec heals and Anub'rekan would be beaten by 8 tanks and 9 healers, 7 DPS. However still everyone would do something useful. Tanking and healing is useful. Defending or taking the flag in WSG is useful. Wandering aimlessly is not.

Coordination is distribution of tasks. It needs everyone to be capable of doing useful things. You can only tell "X tanks, Y DPS" if X can tank and Y can DPS. If X is a useless moron who can't do anything you cannot coordinate him.

47 comments:

matojo said...

That saying, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"? Yeah. It applies to WoW, too.

The resources to make people better players are out there, they've been out there for ages. If people want to better themselves they'll do one of the following:

a) Listen to advice that's given.
b) Look for the information on their own.
c) Ask.

You're right in saying that there's no point wasting time and effort on people that aren't willing to do, or to listen. It's something I've learned after a looot of pain.

Dan said...

I was in such a position once. Well over a year ago the guild I was in was splintered by one of the officers and many others. The officer created a new guild and with it went a good core of the raiders from the original guild. Some people left the original guild and joined a different one. I stayed and attempted to reshape the fragmented guild back into 25-man raiding (this was back in TBC). I lasted a month before I decided to leave myself. I briefly joined a different guild with a bunch of my long time friends which was attempting to reach 25-mans themselves. After two Kara raids I left them - I was top damage dealer on a very poorly geared hunter - doubling and even tripling some of the lower "DPS" folks.
I'm currently in a guild that does some hard modes in Ulduar (FL +2 type hard modes) that pushed through the types of difficulties I faced in the guilds I was in during TBC, eventually ending up on Illidan's doorstep. I'm a much happier goblin raider now than I was even six months ago.

Azzur said...

The problem I see with your post is that you're applying the same principle in 2 different contexts. For a guild, you actually have a choice. You can either leave (or better results) or stay. There's no game design (apart from social reasons) compelling you to stay.

For BGs, it's different. You get the BG deserter debuff on you if you leave (thus I won't count that as an option). There are thus 2 choices - refusing to herd cats (hense losing) or doing your best to coordinate the team (and getting better results).

End of the day, it's your choice, but the analogy is not the same.

mikwolf said...

I got tired of my words falling on deaf ears in the bgs.

Why people can't realize that everyone doing what one person says is better than everyone doing their own thing, I won't understand. Even if what the person is saying is shitty idea, it's better than 10/15/40 players being individuals.

So instead we have the majority of players running around like zombies in a bad movie.

Doesn't everyone know to fight on nodes/flags/etc? What is common sense to the average player in a BG nowadays?

In AB/EOTS I have this dilemma when I'm healing on whether I should run off the node and heal the morons fighting on the road. If I don't heal them and they lose I get stomped because the dps is dead. If I run over and heal I'm just re-enforcing the idea for them to fight on roads.

If we can't teach the m&s how to play in a BG and we can't force them to organize a victory, what the hell are we supposed to do? I gave up after losing 20 AV's in a row(I really wanted the daily, and every loss made me want a win more).

Maybe 3.2 will bring back some quality players to the bgs.

Bifenaa said...

The only way to get people to listen in a BG is if you (or anyone for that matter) starts a premade BG group where everyone in the group is wanting to win and will listen to the leader, just like in a raid.

I never pvp just random queing anymore if i want to BG i start a premade.

Ten said...

@Gevlon:

The commenters claimed that the aimless wandering of the morons is somehow my fault as I failed to coordinate them.

That's not telling the truth. I followed comments in that thread and I made a fair amount of them myself. People did not say that you were at fault for not coordinating others. People said that you were at fault for whining at people's inability to play sensibly in a BG - that is, *in a coordinated fashion* - while not doing any better yourself.

You are blind to your own faults. Your attempts to boost your ego by putting words into mouths of others are pathetic. But, hey, whatever floats your boat.

Unsubscribed.

Carra said...

Damn, tons of typos in this post. I'm not used to this many mistakes form you. Makes it hard to read:

This is completely wrong as assumes that "sensibly" is "coordinated", therefore needing a coordinator and everyone (including me) failed to step up as one. We were starting winning the BG's when started defending. We did not coordinated defense, we did it ourselves. The guy who brought the flag (usually a protwarri twink or some rouge twink) did not coordinated anything, picked the flag and ran.

-it assumes
-starting to win
-when we started defending
-we did not coordinate a defense
-rogue?
-did not coordinate
-...

Proofreading ftw.

Gevlon said...

@Carra, that section was written on the fly after a comment. Of course it's no excuse for skipping proofreading.

Ten said...

@Gevlon:

OK, I will stick for the duration of this comment thread.

This is completely wrong as assumes that "sensibly" is "coordinated", ...

If you are not coordinating your actions with those of others you are gimping yourself and your team doesn't stand a chance of winning against those teams that do coordinate. This is so clear that you can say that "uncoordinated" is "insensible". Thus, "sensible" is necessarily "coordinated".

... therefore needing a coordinator ...

You can play in a coordinated fashion without there being someone calling out what to do next. That said, if you are playing with people whom you have never played with before, you will likely have much more success coordinating actions through nominating [as] a leader and calling out what to do next verbally. Going on your own, like you did, without making sure that you are on the same page as other members of your team, was gimping your team. Whatever BGs you managed to win you did only because your opponents equally gimped themselves and did not organize either.

If we put 25 good players together to raid, without any form of communication, I'm sure that they could clean Naxx in a few tries.

Only because Naxx is easy and everyone did it as part of a coordinated team before. Even then, I'd venture a thought that you wouldn't have much success doing without communication on most hard modes in Ulduar, no matter the player skill, even though all the tactics are there in plain sight.

Of course coordination would help to optimize things.

It is the *only* way to achieve anything in PVP and is similarly absolutely required for high-end PVE. If you can do something without coordinating with other players, you can solo it. There is nothing wrong with soloing, of course, but things that require group effort are typically seen as more difficult.

Dàchéng said...

Gevlon said:
"We were starting to win the BG's when we started defending. We did not coordinate defense, we did it ourselves. "

So you did co-ordinate defense. Between the two of you. Frankly, the most sensible way to play Warsong Gulch is to play in a co-ordinated way. Even more co-ordination would have brought even better results.

Moreover you also whined, in your previous post that mentioned "when Helcsi ran flags, we noticed that 1-2 uninvited sidekick joined us". Your suggestion that they are "uninvited" is strange. Nobody needs an invitation from you to go anywhere. Your analysis of why they joined joined Helcsi (they did not join you) is wrong. Usually, people join the flag carrier to protect and defend the FC, and to pick up the flag should the FC be killed. This is winning behaviour. Your suggestion that they were "causing nothing else than getting enemy attention" beggars belief. Do you think that the enemy wouldn't see that big bear running with the flag trailing a plume of smoke if only that other player hadn't joined you?

Dàchéng said...

More evidence of the value of communication and co-ordimation in your post:

'There were no communication between us, when he picked the flag and there were no incoming on my GF's "track humanoid", I ran out to heal the flag carrier. We just used our brains and acted independently.'

So you obviously got co-ordinated your actions with your girlfriend. Just not with anybody else. If you really believe that your tactics would work just as well without any co-ordination or communication, why don't you join Warsong Gulch without your girlfriend and see how you do?

Gevlon said...

@Dácheng: they joined on the way to the flag, when we tried to sneak in on the right side on the map, and did it jumping up and down.

And I've never said coordination is bad. I've just said it's only possible if the others are capable of actions on their own. I cannot coordinate "you go flag, jump down at their GY, I'll wait for you and heal" with someone who doesn't know where the flag or GY it.

Ten said...

@Gevlon:

I cannot coordinate "you go flag, jump down at their GY, I'll wait for you and heal" with someone who doesn't know where the flag or GY it.

That's true. Now, were all your teammates that dumb? How do you know? What do you think they thought of your BG skills?

Okrane S. said...

@Ten

You are wrong. Players who know how to act inside a BG dont need to hear basic instructions like:

- dont cap flag in eots at first
- get blacksmith as a priority
- defend the flag carrier
- use catapults to destroy the walls and not to attack the other players
- defend the catapults/kite the enemies attacking them.
- etc

Scrubs dont know these things. They just roam the field figting the first oponent they find. Independent of the number of enemies they see.

How many times have we all seen one player jump and attack all alone a group of 3+ oponents? - this isnt a rule of tactic, btw, just common sense.

And somehow, when I try to give some sort of coordination, like, at the beginning of a BG saying: group 1 go BS etc, nobody goes to BS anyways. Furthermore, once in a while you meet someone who will suggest that you should "shut the fuck up" and to "fuck off".

So, yes, at a high level of play, coordination is key of success. You cannot down a hardmore, nor achieve 2000+ rating without coordination. However, when battlegrounds are filled with such geniuses, farming away their epixx free gear, like headless chicken, trying to coordinate them will only give you a headache and a hell lot of frustration

Ten said...

@Okrane:

Players who know how to act inside a BG dont need to hear basic instructions like: ...

So? There is a lot of other things to communicate, relatively static ("team 1 does this, team 2 does that") as well as dynamic ("incoming tunnel, 2 + 1 healer").

However, when battlegrounds are filled with such geniuses, farming away their epixx free gear, like headless chicken, trying to coordinate them will only give you a headache and a hell lot of frustration

I don't mean to say it is easy to coordinate a random (non-premade) BG. I mean to say it is hypocritical to do next to nothing to that extent, then blame people for playing dumb.

Keep in mind that when you are playing on your own, ignoring other players, your best strategy might be very different from what it would be if you were playing as part of a team. Most of the rules of thumb like those above (eg, "don't cap flag in EoTS at first") don't apply. Because of this, assertions like "battlegrounds are filled with such geniuses" don't have a lot of ground. Without coordination, you just do your own thing. You don't have a lot of information to tell whether what you are doing makes sense *in this very moment and situation* or not. But you can blame others, I suppose...

Okrane S. said...

Maybe I wasnt very clear in what I was saying. There goes much simplified.

If there are good players in a battleground things even unorganized at first will start going decently. Some will start calling out decisions, people will follow and an ad-hoc coordination will exist.

If there are a lot of bad players around, it wont matter I tell them to go somewhere and leave something else alone. They wont listen. They will tell me to go fuck myself and do what they usually do.

Trying to coordinate a group of M&S is the same as trying to reason with a group of wild monkeys.

You will fail to do it. And the first sign that people are M&S in a battleground is the fact that they dont know basic tactics and common sense strategies.

Therefore in such a situation, you do your thing. Follow your strategy, farm HK quietly somewhere, afk, curse them on /bg chat, leave the bg...

All you can do is whine about them being dumb. You cannot change them

Anonymous said...

I'm really getting tired of this stuff go back to making money.

It is partially your fault for not teaching/leading. No its not entirely your fault your teammates have responsiblity too for their actions. But you have to take responsiblity for your inaction.

If you don't want to lead then quit whining about bgs. Most problems is there is no authoritative leader not that its filled with M&S

For the M&S. Asking isn't enough. Reading isn't enough. Listening isn't enough. Why? you actually have to try to do it before you get better.

I also think that no one starts out as a good player. Gevlon seems to think that you can get good w/o playing just reading and paying 5k/week for guild runs.

And yes it takes some practice to get out of the stupid fire/frost area when it happens.

please get back to money making, or at least quit whining that the players on your battlegroup never get better because its not like you are trying to remedy that.

Okrane S. said...

@Anonimous above

dumbest troll I read the whole day... loled like hell irl

as if, doing good in bgs is not in the interest of everyone participating and therefore the duty of EVERYONE to learn to play, but only in gevlon's interest...

go suck some more in bgs noob

Ten said...

@Okrane:

If there are good players ...

In my experience, things are never quite so cut and dry. You get a couple of experienced players and a couple of not-so-experienced ones. (By the way, note how you put "calling out decisions" as a sign of a "good" team. Someone has to do it, right?) If you try, you can have much more influence on the outcome than you thought you could have. Sometimes you try and fail. That's expected. That's similar to how you can try and fail to make money on the AH or how you can wipe on a boss. Nothing new. The usual advice to not give up works. As does the advice to spare the QQ, which Gevlon would do good to follow.

I am squarely with Anonymous.

Wooly said...

In my experience it's indeed nearly impossible to get people in BGs to listen. Sometimes you're lucky and the seemingly M&S are actually decent players lacking experience and willing to learn. All the other times it's just a bunch of people who probably know, but don't give a crap about the map goals, only about killing members of the other team. Those people aren't trainable, they either expect others to do the defending, or just don't care about the goals at all. They might not even be true M&S in the sense of the words, they just don't want to play a certain role in the map. They're might also only there to increase their HK's, to blow off steam, or to test out new gear, etc. No chance in changing them.

I guess making those people defend or grab flags is like making dps heal or tank. They don't want to, so they don't do it, or do a crappy job at it.

Okrane S. said...

ok. lets factor in another aspect.

In a battlegroup the number of level 80 players is of the order of tens of thousands. So you can assume that the stream of incoming idiots you meet in battlegrounds is infinite, and you never meet the same moron twice.

Therefore in order to get the group to succeed you must make some macros explaining everything everytime, which people won't listen anyway. you must have:

- Macros with basic strategy:
" Dont leave bases undefended. Report incoming attacks"

- Macros with group assignement:
"Group 1 go Blacksmith"

- Macros with general common sense rules:
"Please dont fight on the road and never attack by yourself"

- Announcements about the outcome:
"Efc in tunnel"

Now, the average M&S has only one macro to his disposition:
"STFU Noob" - which kinda makes pointless your entire effort.

Weak players willing to learn, you can guide. M&S you cannot and its pointless to try.

MassHysteria said...

This is true. Too many people don't read forums like EJ or whatever and just play the game like they want. But in order to do good dps, healing or tanking you need to know what stats to focus on, your combat rotation and so on. I learned to play my classes myself by searching for information on the internet. Also, often when you do TRY to give advice to "M&S" they dont listen and think you are a prick. Solution: Don't play with them, they will be a time consuming element causing wipes and whining

Ten said...

@Okrane:

lets factor in another aspect.

Once again, and I have been repeating this for a long time already, I don't argue that coordinating a random BG is easy. It is difficult. I argue that not attempting to coordinate a BG, then blaming others for playing dumb (which in the end comes down in no small part to nobody stepping up to coordinate) is rather pointless and childish.

Okrane S. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Okrane S. said...

And what I am actually saying is:

Trying to coordinate a BG is... POINTLESS.

Dont do it. Never try. It will hurt your nerves and make you angry.

If you play battlegrounds for fun: start doing premades.


If you dont have people do to premades with: stop playing them.

if you need honor: just do your thing (grind HK, afk and chat, download a bot if you want)



And btw, Gevlon never whined imo. He just presented us the facts of a test he made along with the conclusions.

Happyending said...

@ Anonymous above

And yes it takes some practice to get out of the stupid fire/frost area when it happens.


You are the type of windowlicker that just plain out pisses me off.

I don't know about you, but I take the time to read and watch videos about any new fights that I am going to be doing that night. I don't stand in shit that is killing me. It doesn't take practice to move. It take's one brain cell to tell you "Hey, I'm taking damage while I stand in this bad glowy shit"

It's people like you that were in my last guild that kept ME back. I finally took Galvins advice, transferred to a server that has guilds that aren't filled with the likes of you.

Ten said...

@Okrane:

And btw, Gevlon never whined imo.

The original post was describing two "experiments" which Gevlon set up in order to expose the stupidity of people he is calling "socials". The wording of the post, too, emphasizes the idea that, roughly speaking, Gevlon is cool and most other people are dumb ("their sick tendency", "goblins, feel free to abuse", "idiots", etc). Asserting Gevlon's own superiority over other people was the prime reason for the post.

This is not limited to just that one post either. In fact, Gevlon has invented an abbreviation specifically so that he can assert his superiority with less of an effort on his part (pressing less keys). He is probably proud of that invention, too.

I am calling this whole behavior "whining" because this is the least offensive term I have for it.

csdx said...

@Okrane S
"Trying to coordinate a BG is... POINTLESS."

I believe that Ten's point is that if it's pointless then complaining about trying do something pointless is equally pointless.

It's been admitted (except by Gevlon apparently) that coordination is required to consitantly win (you can still win the odd battle through luck or the other side being just as bad). If trying to actually coordinate people in bgs is pointless, then the post about Gevlon attempting to do such was pointless as well.

Furthermore, Gevlon was also talking about making a level 19 character, and those battle grounds tend to be much different than those at 80 (though still full of people not necessarily looking to play seriously).

Anonymous said...

Hmm this is just a whine in general, but this comment:
"I don't know about you, but I take the time to read and watch videos about any new fights that I am going to be doing that night."

This is part of why I really stopped caring about raids. Basically being required to read the walkthrough and follow a premade strategy before even playing the game is just not appealing to me. I mean 'yay loot', but reading complete a step-by-step how to win for single player games isn't really that fun, and it isn't that fun for WoW I've found. /endwhine

CSkinner said...

I think part of the point he is trying to make is that if these people were worth teaching at all, they wouldn't need teaching... I don't view his post as whining, but as stating a fact from before, either.

The other part that he is saying is that it is not his responsibility to make them better. It's theirs. No man has responsibility for any other man but himself. You can no more control the actions of others than you can control the rising and setting of the sun. If he chose to speak to those other people, it would be solely on his discretion, and he would still have no 'responsibility' towards them. It is their responsibility not to suck, and his responsibility not to suck. If he ~chooses~ a leader role, then he assumes some responsibility, but only to direct and lead. He still has none for the player himself.

This collectivist theory that we are all responsible for each other is tripe and bull crap. The first moment something bad happens to you or your family and all those around you bail on you. There are a select few that will help you, but only if they have a vested interest (ie, family), but everyone else will scatter like cats from water. People have no responsibility for you, and you will see that when something goes wrong. Lose your job and see how many 'office buddies' come to your aid. They will forget you exist.

Gevlon is right. He has no responsibility to them and only when he and his comrade began to do the jobs of the M&S did they win. His only 'responsibility' was to have fun in a game. He has none to the M&S who are too stupid to read or learn on their own.

CSkinner said...

Oh, and I've been in BGs where no one spoke and they went exactly as planned... I am thinking of Alterac Valley... Eye of the Storm...

Althalas said...

If we put 25 good players together to raid, without any form of communication, I'm sure that they could clean Naxx in a few tries.

I cannot wait for you to do actual progression. By paying your way into 1 raid slot a week you are being carried by your guild. You are not there the other nights they do the wiping.

You have a real elitist attitude toward raiding thinking that you get good people and "poof" it's cleared. this comes from your experience joining a guild that does the harder work for you.

Get a guild together that can only raid when you do, and lets see how fast you clear content. There is a time component to this stuff that you seem to not grasp.

Anonymous said...

I cannot wait for you to do actual progression.

A raid full of Gevlons would probably go like this:

RA: G1 is kicked from the raid.
RA [G2]: He was not pulling his weight, it is not our job to educate him how to heal.
RA [G3]: Actually, G2, your tanking gear sucks, I don't have to put up with this mess.
RA: G3 leaves the raid.
RA [G4]: Give me leader, please, or I am leaving this raid. We are full of morons.
RA: G2 leaves the raid.
RA: G8 leaves the raid.
...

Next day, twenty five articles titled "It's not my faliure".

Mentat said...

@Althalas:

He only came for the progression nights and wiped a bunch. l2read

@Gevlon:
Depending on your definition of communicationless, I think a 25 man is totally possible. 10 would probably be easy. People who are competent do the right thing, pay attention to what other people are doing, and react appropriately. Faced with people who weren't able to communicate that is, ironically, the appropriate behavior in BGs too.

@people who get their self value from leadership
I'm a leader in real life of a fairly large team. They are competent not because I tell them what to do all the time but because I help them understand what they need to know so I don't have to tell them what to do all the time. This requires long term relationships. Those relationships do not and will not exist in BGs. You may succeed occasionally, but as often as not I'm fairly sure those are groups who would have succeeded without your amazing guidance. Get over yourselves. The people you're leading have a lot to do with success or failure in short term projects. You can help people grow over the long term, but over the course of 20 minutes? Please. Of course the people who are posting probably think they're Julius Caesar incarnate. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying you're going to fail 90% of the time and that's not worth it in frustration to me. Maybe it is to you, but I think you've got odd priorities. Also leading my example works, which is really what Gevlon did.

Anonymous said...

I like the ironic title :)

Yaggle said...

I just don't think battlegrounds should be taken as seriously as raiding. Anybody should feel okay joining and running around attacking people until they figure out more about what is going on. BG should be for everybody. From my experience, battlegrounds can be a lot of fun even when losing. Of course winning is better but BG is a lot like a roller coaster. It gets crazy and it's fun just doing it.

Jeff said...

You have two and only two worthwhile things in this life your knowledge and your time. Everything else is superfluous. It is always worth my time to lead a horse to water if there is any chance of them drinking. One more educated person working with me means my time is more productive. If they don't do it the first time, I rarely try a second, I would rather devote my time to some one who will.

Leadership, it is a quality as important in WoW as it is in real life. People hate making decisions. As a raid lead who has started the Assembly of Iron encounter in 10 man I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt the the hardest thing to do as a raid lead is make decisions, constantly. Then you must live with those decisions. I was trying to bring up a new guild member, who joined us because of our success in a limited (two day a week, three hours per day) raiding schedule. He was an experienced raider and wanted to lead. I wanted to move on and focus on Ulduar and so gave him the Naxx run, which he asked to lead. Net result? Within two weeks he had /gquit because he was paralyzed by needing to make decisions. He didn't come to me, and I didn't go to him. I failed him as a raid/guild lead, but he didn't have the temperament for it.

People, (and btw M&S is becoming more and more in line with my opinion of idiot, we are all idiots about something, for example our distinguished host is an idiot (based on my reading) about manners and why they are important) have different temperaments. Some are not cut out to make decisions under pressure, some of us are. Until some one is comfortable with your calls they will not listen to you. In battle grounds, even if you are there all the time, no one listens to you, because as far as they know, you are an idiot. In my BG premades, it is frightening, because we know how to win, and execute the strategy, there doesn't need to be much communicaiton, because we know what we are doing. Just like in Naxx and the parts of Ulduar we have on farm already.

You didn't lead, so what, just makes you like every one else, in random battle grounds I don't lead, because pissing into a strong wind is more productive. It isn't your responsibility, it doesn't surprise me based on your past behavior.

BTW I expect to have this comment deleted for being a troll, but hey, I could be wrong.

ZacharyPruckowski said...

At least part of the fault is Blizzard's. I hate to say this, but if you're in a BG that lacks coordination and doubt in your ability to assume command of the BG, the intelligent thing to do is farm Honorable Kills (HKs), so that you get something out of it, win or lose. If you're in a coordinated BG, the intelligent thing to do is to farm HKs and ignore your "leader", so that the team will win it, and you'll have the winning honor+tokens and a pile of HKs. So long as the optimal thing to do is fight people at random positions along the road, that's what people will do.

Blizzard is trying to change this in 3.2 by awarding XP and more honor for BG objectives, so hopefully that'll help.

Ten said...

@Mentat:

I'm a leader in real life of a fairly large team. They are competent not because I tell them what to do all the time but because I help them understand what they need to know so I don't have to tell them what to do all the time. This requires long term relationships. Those relationships do not and will not exist in BGs.

Yes, you are right. However, you are trying a false dichotomy: either close relationships exist and people work as a team, or they do not exist and people are on their own. There is a lot of space in between. Further, real life is much more complex than WoW, and so in WoW people can get the benefits of a team with much less in terms of relationships. I am a leader in real life as well.

You may succeed occasionally, but as often as not I'm fairly sure those are groups who would have succeeded without your amazing guidance.

Yes, if someone else assumes control. That someone else might be a group of people, and in an extreme case everyone might assume control, but someone has to do it or the results will be mediocre. By assuming control I mean having a plan of collective action, working that plan, and communicating its state to others. You don't frequently see a lot of people doing that, which is why situations where everyone assumes control over the BG are rare, but I imagine that this still can happen. I have seen successful BGs with more than one acknowledged leader though, with these leaders working together (this is something that happens a lot in raids, where you might see a raid leader and a couple of other people handling tanking, healing, interrupts, etc).

Wiggin said...

I too often commit the sin myself: trying to help others in BGs.

Gevlon and many of the commentators are exactly right, only those that want to learn will.

Personal example, I didn't know why I could only make catapults in WG. I asked general chat several times, and finally (after numerous lol noob tells) someone told me, I had to reach rank 2 from killing allies to drive the other siege vehicles.

So it continues, that now in WG, when we are on offense, too many people waste the team's siege vehicle slots on catapults. Now I attempt to tell others in general chat: "don't make catapults, kill more allies to get rank 2 and get better vehicles!"

Of course the witty make commits like "of course, nub!" and so forth, but I'm not looking for replies. In fact, the people that needed the information are probably too embarrassed to admit the advice helped!

But yes, it is very difficult to coordinate with random people (PUGs) because everyone is playing for themselves.

Another great example is AV "i just want to farm HKs" is the common reply, however, those with their 30+ hks to my few 10 I picked up by accident have a whopping 100 to 150 more honor...and the opportunity cost of farming HKs rather than capping towers, GYs and potentially the win in huge, but "they" don't care.

You cant lead the masses, it comes down to simply playing better yourself hoping it might be enough.

Gibbiex said...

@Jeff

I'm with you. For the longest time I was incapable of being a raid leader because I didn't know the fights and didn't want to look them up. For example, I know on a certain level all the naxx fights, but I don't know every single detail of every fight. Therefore I thought I was a bad leader. In fact, i think my raids are pretty fun now, however I still don't know every detail of every fight. I look it up and tell people over vent if needed, or ask someone to explain it (that is another problem with me - my explanations usually suck).

Probably I am a better guild leader but, honestly, I was handed the guild from my best friend who is a great team leader (he's one IRL, whereas I am not). Anyway I guess what I am trying to say is that leadership isn't born, its created over time. I'm not sure what my people think of me, but I do my best, and ask for advice and make amends when I screw up. I think those two things go a long way when you are inexperienced (or perhaps not the worlds expert on everything, since there is always someone who is the expert on that subject).

Ayonel said...

I agree with you. I have raided with people who are specced the same as other people in the raid and geared better, but still perform badly and blame their gear. I run WG constantly, and you understate the problem there. In WG, the M & S mock *you* when you try to provide direction on things. This isn't simple ignorance; rather, it is the kind of willful destructiveness that Ayn Rand writes about so eloquently.

As with many aspects of life, there are simply a lot of people in WoW who aren't interested in being good, they want someone to do the work for them and then give them the cookies.

Conor said...

Some people are capable of leading others are only capable of managing. Judging by many of your posts, you are a manager and not capable of positive leadership. Leaders are capable of inspiring others to achieve beyond what they would normally do on their own. I tell you there are people out there that do inspire others to do this. It takes time, its dynamic, and you have to really focus on people and what they do well.

You seem very fault & failure focused and seem to address that the many of your posts. This negative style of management only serves to reduce the amount of bad things a person does; however it lacks the ability to promote positive action.

I have seen raid leaders like this who get people in the situation where they are so focused on not making mistakes they never risk taking a chance and doing something great. No one wants to suck, but you have to focus on making them better, not just sucking less.

I've seen WSG where we have been down 2-0, and suddenly under positive leadership people pull together and if everyone gets on board then its very possible for people to realize what is going on and work together to win. This is what the game is all about to me. People you would label as M&S, coming together in a moment of greatness. However if you come at them with a fault & failure outlook, they will always reject you based upon your negative attitude and you will never see what they are truly capable of. People know what they do is wrong and hardly need to be told it was wrong. What a person truley craves is to know what they can do better. If you are ever going to start helping people become better you must first change yourself. Focus on making strengths stronger and not just trying to minimize weaknesses. I think what you are doing with the apprentices is a good start.

P.S. I'd like to see 8 tanks, 9 healers, and 7 DPS take down Patchwerk.

Anonymous said...

Apparantly a large amount of trolls weave their way into this blog.

At any rate, my two cents about BG's, I've observed myself that people will act socially in BG's. No matter which BG it is. If I defend a tower in AV, 2 people may go up there with me. Now as a little expiriment, I decide to leave the tower to see what the other two do.

Guess what? They jump out as well. Later I do the same thing, but I /say "Guard the tower I'll get that GY" Guess what? The other guys jump out and get the GY as well.


As for raids, raid leading, etc etc. Good players exist. I have a group of 6 guys that know every faucet of their class, boss fights, gear, gems, chants, etc etc etc. Head and shoulders, we always outperform even the "hardcore" raider. I sit at 6k dps on my feral druid, and I've also tanked / lead every fight in ulduar cept Yogg. I've also healed every fight from BC forward.

The reason I play my druid is because I KNOW I play better than 80% of wow players. If healing is poor, I'll switch to healing and tell the worst healer to dps. If a tank is dumb enough not to hit his Cooldowns for plasma bolt on Mimi, I tell him to dps and I'll tank.

I don't try to get them to play better, its a waste of time. If someone asks me some advice, I give them a book. Telling people something, doesn't accomplish anything. People asking questions is the first step. <-- Period.

Doug said...

The best thing you can do about morons in BGs (other than genocide) is minimize the impact they have on the outcome of the battle. A few good players is all it takes to do this.

For example: Heal the idiots that zerg the opponents in AV. Your team's few players that know what it takes to win will handle Defence and Recapping. All you have to do is minimize the resources lost by morons hellbent on throwing themselves into the teeth of the opponent. If you do it well enough, it can change the total outcome of the battle.

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/4270/wowscrnshot072009221307.jpg

The linked final AV stats screenshot above where Horde wins 22/0 were a product of this mentality, and the failure of the opponents to realize exactly why their zerg cant make any progress, and is eventually pushed back to the point of failure.

Russ said...

If X is a useless moron who can't do anything you cannot coordinate him.

Yes, you can.

That's the whole point of what I was trying to put across to you.

They run for HKs like shinies to a magpie. Hint, or otherwise indicate where the shinies are (or may not be) and you can herd these sheep like the fools they are.

Use your knowledge of how the BGs work and how the morons act to make sure they at least do something useful (or keep the attention away from you doing the REAL task).

Łukasz Sz. said...

5th paragraph:
"You cannot help anyone who did not ask for it"
Sorry for a late comment, thanks for the posts.