Greedy Goblin

Sunday, June 28, 2009

"We raiders"?

I got a troll comment saying "We raiders - it made my day". He obviously means that I cannot use "we" for raiders. I deleted the troll, regretted later.

Got another: "I find it funny and sad at the same time that someone who bought his way into high end raiding instead of getting there of his own merit foams at the mouth at "slackers" who are not good enough for a high end raiding guild. If it weren't for the virtual gold you made, you probably weren't in Ulduar today."

I wrote about it once, but have to do it again, because it's a common flaw among socials. According to them, there is a "proper" (ethical, moral, right thing) way of doing things and there are improper ways.

The only boundary of our actions are the laws. If I clear Ulduar in a single shirt, that's improper. Not because the "moral compass" of "the people" says so. It's improper because Blizzard, the lawmaker of this game says so.

The second troll is obviously right. I wouldn't be in Ulduar if I couldn't pay my way. Being able to pay is exactly the difference between me and those who are locked outside, despite they are not horrible players in greens. Obviously there are other abilities that make you able to raid, the most common is having a geared character, knowing how to play it and have free time 3-4 times a week.

There are several ways to reach the same goals and all of them are equally proper as long as law does not say otherwise. Restricting yourself from certain ways because they are "improper" is just silly.

The raiders in my guild like the free guildbank repairs and the free upgrade enchants. So, in return of these, I have the privilage of raiding only once a week. And I shamelessly use this privilage to skip farm bosses and go directly on the hard mode tries. I haven't seen Ignis in a month. I've never seen Thorim, Hodir and Vezzax normals (seen Yogg normal because he was left over from previous day). And I was there on FL+4 firstkill, Heartbraker secondkill and on almost all Steelbraker tries.

Yes, that's a privilage. I have it because I provide something rare. There are more normal raider applicants than goblin applicants. If there would be 2 applying goblins to every guild, I'd have to pay more or give up my privilage. You know why there are no applying goblins?

No, not because making money is hard. If you see a mammoth, you see 4 weeks of raiding cost. Many people could do it. They don't even try, because "it's improper". What they reach by sticking to their moral code? Harming themselves and helping me (by decreasing competition).

So thank you ethical, social people for making my way that easy. Keep up the good work!

And as always: troll policy stays.


Yaggle said...

Well said. You got where you are in your own way, by doing what you do best. If everybody got to the top the same way, what a boring world it would be. And you certainly answered "What can you do with all that money" in style by using it this way. I find your explanation of the "we raiders" criticism uplifting, because it seems to tie in to a general philosophy of appreciating a person for their individuality, and recognizing the unique way that they benefit the group, rather than how well they conform to the norm.

spinksville said...

Don't let it get to you. I doubt your guild would let you raid if they thought you were a bad player, regardless of how much you were paying.

"According to them, there is a "proper" (ethical, moral, right thing) way of doing things and there are improper ways."

But you also consider being run through an instance by better geared friends to be welfare and improper compared with pulling your weight?

Gevlon said...

@spinks: being boosted is completely OK way to get levels. Boosting someone for free is completely stupid. It's not the boosted, it's the booster who is a loser.

Zodius said...

@Gevlon: ah, but if the boosted got a free run through, it's their effort/persuasive talent and skills that let them get the free ride. If he gains, then there's someone who should be losing, which is the booster.

Though on the other hand, the booster maybe doing a "favor" to the boosted so in the future he can get back the favor 10x (dating a hot chick boosted, ask him to pass him an epic in future)

so in the long run who's the stupid and the clever is still unclear.

Though you are right if you just look at it now w/o considering the future which may change anytime. Currently the booster is the M&S

Carl Lewis said...


Athryn said...

Hey, at least when you go, you go for the challenge and not just to be carried. Most of those people who bitch at you would rather be carried, so you're ok in my book.

spinksville said...

I dunno, if I have a friend and want to play with them, I don't see how it's bad to help them level quickly.

Abandon said...

I agree 100% that you bring something useful to the guild. At some point their officers decided that the arangement you made with them has a higher amount of benefits (enchants, gems, repairs) than costs (gear going to someone who does not attend every raid). In true goblin fashion you identified one of your resources, and exchanged it for what benefits you the most.

The problem I see with some of your analysis is that you look at things in the vaccum of WOW. In the past you have described how all ingame entities (including gold, acheivments, arena ratings) are not real, they can disappear at any time Blizzard decides, and for whatever reason they decide. But ultimately these things are not, in and of themselves, the reason to play. The enjoyment of obtaining them is what people are paying for and playing for. It is all about utility.

That is the reason someone would boost a friend for no fee. They get more enjoyment (utility) than they would if they spent that time getting gold. They are still serving their own purpose (using their time intelligently in order to get the most benefit), they even use the same scale to judge success (enjoyment). The discrepancy is that different people put different value on specific accomplishments, and therefore decide to spend their time in a differnt manner. But we are all just doing our best to maximize our enjoyment of the game and the game environment.

Simularly, Blizzard making gear more easily available for the majority of people is going to cause more people (M&S or not) to be happy. This will mean they will keep paying subscription fees, and Blizzard's game will stay insanely profitable. This means that they can continue to make new low and high end content for you to personally experiance. Blizzard keeping the M&S's happy is actually a good thing for you.

Long post I know...

Pangoria Fallstar said...

@spinks: Then boosting your friend is for your own benefit right? I believe Gevlon was talking about the people who whisper for runs.

I have a large ignore list, since every whisper starts with, "Do I even know you?" lol

Anonymous said...


"I have a friend and want...."

I want to play with them implies self interest. You find entertainment value to be had with your friend.

I think Gevlon looks down on people who boost others with no vested interest in the run for themselves.

duncan said...

"The only boundary of our actions are the laws."
I'd like to just talk about this part of your post. I'm a very new reader, so bare with me if I don't use the goblin lingo.
So are you sure that the law is the only thing that an economist should be concerned with? When considering economics is concerned with increasing total social utility, laws (to me) aren't sufficient.
As far as I know there are 3 types of organisations that obey the law.
Ones who follow their legal responsibilities: they consider the law to be the only moral line to which they cannot cross.
Those which follow ethical responsibilities: they do what is right, just and fair; avoid harm.
Those which follow philanthropic responsibilities: they are obliged to be good corporate citizens by contributing to the community and increasing quality of life.

The problem, as I see it, with following legal obligations is that the law is never always right. Following the law can often decrease total social utility and as a goblin, that's not what you are here for. You're here to increase the economic pie, making the world best for everyone.
Eg in Australia, there was once a law denying businesses the right to price discriminate! As economists we can see that price discrimination, when done correctly, always increases the Pie (sell high to high-end and low to low-end while still covering marginal cost).
Following only the law (and exploiting its loopholes) causes public distrust. Obviously not good for your brand.

To me I think the guidelines for a goblin should be somewhere at the ethical level (philanthropic view is for apes!).

So a much-longer-than-expected response later my conclusion is, be ethical, not law abiding.
economic decision making works with only profit in mind, but our own market system has it's own justification because profit is a means to an end (greater good and greater good is not always maximised by obeying the law).

spinksville said...

"I think Gevlon looks down on people who boost others with no vested interest in the run for themselves."

I know he does, but I wonder if he just doesn't see what the interest might be if it isn't anything clearly measured in gold, achievements, rep, etc. I just don't think people do things for no reason at all. And I do think he has commented previously on his thoughts about friendly people boosting their friends.

Anonymous said...

"Privilege". Also, you are of course perfectly right.

Ixobelle said...


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Rerun said...

Dear Mr.Gevlon
I was wondering about another Point. Extensiv raiding is,among other things, a question of time. Paying 5000 g/week could be a shortcut for you, since you don't have to be there on every try, if i remember your agreement right.

My question is :"How much time do you spend in one week to collect these 5000 g ? Compared to the time you save because you don't have to be there every try."

I understand that buisness can be done anytime but raids only at raidtimes but still im curious.

Sydera said...

Maybe your troll was including you in "we raiders." If I say something like that, it's inclusive of my interlocutor.

As in, "we raiders have to be careful to gem and enchant our gear properly." I'm including the person I'm speaking to in the category "we." I'd have to read the actual comment to be able to tell.

Ranurm said...


While some business can be done anytime, the best time for business is during peaks hours which happen to be about a five hour period on my server when most raids are occurring and I'm sure other servers have similar patterns of frenzied AH activity. On off raid nights I can double my earning power by restocking bought out goods and under cutting those who have undercut my stock.

It's always made me wonder what effect Gevlon's non-raider status (more so in the past than now) has had on his earning potential compared to people who raid. That said his descriptions of how he controls his server's glyph market may leave him relatively unscathed compared to other markets.

Anonymous said...

When you control the majority of a market (as he does) the "peak" hours of AH activity are not a major concern. As long as he crafts and post prior to those times he is golden. Because he has his business down to about 2 - 2.5 hours per week, he is still on the win side of the hardcore raiders. It can be done, he has given you the blue print, have you followed it?

ZacharyPruckowski said...

Rerun: Gevlon's system is heavily automated, and he hits gold cap with only a few hours/week of work, certainly less than the 6-12 hours of raiding he's skipping

@Gevlon: "being boosted is completely OK way to get levels"

I disagree. Being boosted puts you at a major learning disadvantage. You get rushed up to level cap while before you've learned how to play your class and how to work in a group, so you've got a pile of catching up to do when you get to your 70s. For someone's main, it doesn't really save a lot of time if your goal is becoming a competent raider. Sure, if it's your alt you can probably learn it while being rushed, but the purpose of the leveling game is to learn how to play your class and also learn how you fit into a group while doing leveling (cakewalk) dungeons.

Anonymous said...

As the first commenter said, "you got where you are in your own way, by doing what you do best" and I fully agree with that.

However, the big question is, how does paying gold (and giving out free mats, which amounts to the same) make you less of an M&S compared to the guy who dutifully facerolls lower level content week after week to get the higher tier gear?

As far as I care, you are actually more of an M&S than the facerollers who grind heroics since you don't even attempt to do the PVE content to get the PVE rewards, but instead use a loophole in the system to get there.

(Unless you seriously believe that making obscene amounts of gold by playing the AH is part of the basic WoW concept by Blizz... The AH is there to allow players to exchange goodies used for PVE and PVP progression, the gold currency is only to facilitate the exchange; without available goods to exchange it for, the currency would have no value at all.)

Sven said...


I may be putting words in Gevlon's mouth here (I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong), but by "perfectly ok", i think he meant "acceptable", rather than "optimal".

Wooly said...

I don't think the first troll meant that tbh. At least it's not that obvious to me as it is to you. You are raiding, so you're a raider, there's not much room for other interpretations. If the troll thinks it's funny when you speak for that group, fine, but it feels more like a dislike towards raiders in general, which I see everywhere, all the time. If you raid a lot and have progressed far, you are by definition arrogant according to large groups of people. I used to be in a social guild with that attitude towards the top raiders. I now look back knowing there's more hate from down to the top then the other way around, with a lot of made up reasons. If you are successful, you will be disliked. I think everyone knows this, but it's still strange when it happends to you.

And of course it goes both ways. Look at yourself for example: you dislike the M&S a lot. You say that out loud, so those M&S will dislike you and everything you stand for. And when you use the word "we" it's even easier for them to dislike the whole group you address (and as long as the rest is silent, people will think the rest agrees). This is a cycle that started somewhere, no doubt, but it just is now, it's probably natural, and also a waste of time to bother with. Though very hard not to :)

It reminds me of one brilliant quote from George Carlin: "Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?"

This applies to everything, and to everyone, not just the highway :)

buy wow gold said...

I agree with Yaggle. Individuals have different roles in a group. You participate and contribute by doing what you do best.

Sven said...


Very well put. The trouble is that people tend to lump others into groups (e.g. "raiders", "PUGs" or "M&S") and then attribute attributes to the whole group.

I know some progression raiders who are absolutely lovely people and some who are, frankly, odious and that nobody would time with were it not for the fact that they are good at pressing buttons in a computer game. Likewise I know some people who raid ultra casually who are lazy and can't even be bothered to bring ammo for their hunter and some who are highly skilled but just don't play the game much.

Picking the bad examples in each case to represent the group as a whole is highly misleading.

Kevin said...

It never occurred to me until now, but you are, by your own definition (which I don't happen to agree with), a slacker.

You look disdainfully at anyone who gets into raids because they know someone rather than have the skill to be there. That's exactly who you are except the someone you know is gold and you waved it in front of a guild's face and it got you into a raid that you didn't have the skill to get into without the gold.

So why is buying your way into a raid legitimate when networking your way into a raid makes you a slacker?