It's been a month since Undergeared went to a raid and we were 8 back then. Since that event, 5-8 people were online at raid inv so we couldn't raid.
Honestly I don't understand this setback. We killed "impossible" Festergut, and went to Halion. After realizing that it needs some nerfs before we'll kill it, we wanted to continue Putricide. Last time we got him to 10% and there was another 5% buff in ICC. So it's not like anyone could see a brick wall. It's the Summer or simply "WoW boredom".
Yet I cannot waste the time of 4-7 people and myself. We give up other opportunities to be there - for nothing. So this is a rally call for all people who had-has a blue geared character in the project. On Aug 21 and 28 we'll go to raid (we skip this week). If we can't raid in either date (because of not enough people), we go disband.
If you want to prove that GS is needed only for hard modes or simply do something "impossible", be there! If you won't be there, possibly there will be no other time. This is a one-in-a-world project, if it's something that you like, don't miss your chance!
-------------
The Pug update: BQL, Fester and Rotface also died in 10-men hard mode. We'll extend the 10-man lockout to kill further HM bosses and for normal mode, on Wednesday we start our own 25-man.
We are permanently recruiting, and you have no idea how hard it is:
Honestly I don't understand this setback. We killed "impossible" Festergut, and went to Halion. After realizing that it needs some nerfs before we'll kill it, we wanted to continue Putricide. Last time we got him to 10% and there was another 5% buff in ICC. So it's not like anyone could see a brick wall. It's the Summer or simply "WoW boredom".
Yet I cannot waste the time of 4-7 people and myself. We give up other opportunities to be there - for nothing. So this is a rally call for all people who had-has a blue geared character in the project. On Aug 21 and 28 we'll go to raid (we skip this week). If we can't raid in either date (because of not enough people), we go disband.
If you want to prove that GS is needed only for hard modes or simply do something "impossible", be there! If you won't be there, possibly there will be no other time. This is a one-in-a-world project, if it's something that you like, don't miss your chance!
The Pug update: BQL, Fester and Rotface also died in 10-men hard mode. We'll extend the 10-man lockout to kill further HM bosses and for normal mode, on Wednesday we start our own 25-man.
We are permanently recruiting, and you have no idea how hard it is:
/pedantic mode on.
ReplyDeleteYou just slammed someone for the use of 'moar' and now you use 'oh noes!' as an expression!
As per your own rules, now you have to kick yourself.
/pedantic mode off
As an aside, on Wikipedia, 'moar' redirects to 'more' while 'noes' redirects to 'internet slang'.
At least in the eyes of Wikipedia, 'moar' is more widely accepted.
I agree to your arbitrary rules, but just showing that arbitrary rules have pitfalls. Me, being the devil's advocate that I am, could not pass the opportunity to point this out.
And before you play the 'sarcasm' card. I have posted sarcastic comments on your blog before, which apparently did not go through your approval, in which case I had to reword them.
Moar consistency plox. (See what I did there huh, huh?)
PS: I won't be fussed if this comment does not meet with your approval for showing, it's enough that you read it.
Now for the real comment.
ReplyDeleteAt least in that case, you were right. Looked him on armory, and 12k DpS is just bluster talk. From what I see, he's not a particularily good PvPer, and I doubt his PvE gear was better.
Rules for naming are well and good, but he could have done a lot better in impressing you (oh gosh such a social concept), than antagonizing you, in order to sidestep the issue.
As much as I would have loved to see you decline an exceptionally good player with a silly name, Rofldots is not that. Pity.
Does 'idd' mean something?
ReplyDeleteThis is indeed ironic and hilarious that a guy named Rofldots sees no meaning in his name and thinks it is original.
ReplyDeleteStill I was a bit surprised that he was not a Warlock, since 24/27 guys in EU armoury are Warlocks.
US guys are more predictable, though, - 71/72 of the Rofldots are Warlocks, just one Priest and even not a single Death Knight or a Druid.
Anyway, good luck with the Undergeared's Last rally response!
Ok, i have to ask, if that guy turned out to be mature in chat, would you accept him in spite of his name? Or does his name automatically disqualify him, with no chance of redemption by any other means?
ReplyDelete"Rofldots" is original? Seriously?
ReplyDeleteBest original name in the dots department was Feardotpew, and that was mostly because he always took responsibility for sheeping the fish feast, cleaving the CCed adds, and tricksing the healers.
Also, you cut off the part where you corrected his "your" to "you're" and his subsequent hilarious immaturity. Bad Gevlon!
@Andru: I've never said I'm perfect and never break the rules. I'm TRYING to be as good, but that's a long road. We don't kick people for accidental "lol"-s. We kick people who do it all the time, obviously ignoring the rules.
ReplyDelete@Xaxziminrax: "idd" is "indeed" on the land of retards
@Nikola: "name change" is the way of his redemption
Look's like we'll need to rally a bodyguard force, someone with such a name can pose a serious threat.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, I just love them guys, who think, that "lol" and so on is SO original and just no one in the world is capable to think about a name that includes it. Looks like some people can be born blind and not suffer from it.
I though it would be very un-goblinish to call someone "retarded" and "kiddies" etc?
ReplyDeleteIf I recall, not long ago you define one of the common reaction of social is to attack someone personally (swearing, calling them "retarded" etc.) while the proper action would be to comment on their behaviour, not their personality (ie. that action is stupid and should be fixed etc.).
Gevlon, after all the moron bashing, I'd like to see those who do make it.
ReplyDeleteSet an example for those people out there, how it should be done.
People will realise it's not hard to get into a decent guild once they abide to the rules, are able to talk in a normal way and 'respect' the one inviting them to the guild.
It'll make more people optimistic about joining.
When Namechanged hit my old guild told everyone with a stupid name (like "Rofldots" or "Iamakillor") ot change or get lost.
ReplyDeleteBefore that a lot of people were declined just because of such names.
The PuG sounds interessting. If I had a bit more time I would transfer. *sigh*
By now I play in a twink-raid with 11/12. We raid once a week (3 hours) and extended twice to kill the king. But everytime we need 2-3 randoms and so we lost a lot of time with tactics and other bulls**t. (I don't like randoms who hire for Sindragosa and King with no clue about the tactics). Even those who farm the King with their main do fail hard when they come with us (like not moving away from the ghosts or -even worse- get the horrors to the raid and let the disease spread ...more than twice .... *grml*).
With my warrior I got lucky and a good group needed a tank. So I applied and the king went down after 1 wipe with me tanking the adds and a 2 minute introduction (just where to tank, I saw a couple of videos before). And now my twink-group refuses to do hardmodes beside gunship because "we have to less gear" *grml*
Maybe the recent attendance problems are due to summer vacations and such? I'd wait and see what happens in September.
ReplyDelete@Vennren
ReplyDeleteThere are not much to tell, as the process is, in fact, extremely simple, fast and uneventful. I got my invite after 2 sentences said by me and 1 by Gevlon. Something about the lines:
"- Can I join?
- Have you read the rules?
- Yes.
Glotan invites you to The PuG".
I suppose, most of the others got it about the same way. There are basically no place for lot of talking when the only three things you need to do in order to get in is read the rules, don't have stupid character name and whisper for invite. ;)
Might the lack of interest in Undergeared simply be the result of the blog posting a lot more about the PuG recently?
ReplyDeleteI guess Undergeared is probably also dying because of The Pug. After all they are both projects targetted at people who read your blog and would like to raid with you to prove a point, but Undergeared requires more effort for less reward. I imagine that at least a few people in The Pug would have considered Undergeared if they didn't have a more convenient option now.
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with Jeanie - it was an angry reaction, not a rational reaction. That's beneath the ideals you preach - even if you're not perfect, it's probably the wrong rant to screenshot and post, because it's pot calling kettle black. If there are that many 'retards' whispering you for invites, it should be a simple matter to screenshot one that doesn't show you in a beacon of human-ness.
ReplyDeleteI would also note:
Recruitment is permanent, whisper Glotan or any officers
Anyone who violates the below rules gets warning(s) and if does not fix his error, kicked
Retarded behavior gets you kicked
No IRL things on gchat
No gz spam
No hi/bye spam
No communist collective
No alts in the guild (of course you can have alts elsewhere)
It's worth noting that the retarded character name was a rule in the ganking guild, but it was excluded in your new list when announcing the PuG. Considering that you listed all bar one of the existing rules, it's hard to assume that you didn't do it on purpose.
Secondly, the concept of exclusion based on character name is questionable. If a person happens to have created said character, but has either grown up or matured since, then there are no reasonable grounds for exclusion. Certainly, how 'goblinish' is it to throw away US$15 for the sake of something cosmetic?
Yes, it's your guild, so it's your rules. But it doesn't make it any more rational / logical / reasonable.
Good luck finding people for Undergeared. Been wondering when you'd progress.
Gevlon, even if a person is actually retarded it's not proper to call him/her retarded. "Rofldots" is a retarded name, no doubt, but maybe the person behind the name isn't a M&S. You aren't an all-knowing God who can recall for every given person X, whether X is generally retarded or not, are you?
ReplyDeleteTo sum up: "rofldots is a retarded kiddie" is a false statement.
"[...] your name don't qualify"
Does/doesn't is used with the third person singular - words like he/she/it. Although I'm not a native English speaker, I'm almost 100% sure that there are no exceptions to the above rule. Or, maybe I'm wrong in which case I'd really appreciate if you corrected me. If you're absolutely sure that I'm wrong you may very well delete this post...
Last time i checked, a name change costs money. I know, by majority standards, it's not allot, but for people like me (student with huge costs regarding travel to classes, acomodations, etc.) it would be considered money that could have been invested better.
ReplyDeleteWhat I'm trying to ask is, if a guy with a name like that acts completely mature with no other negativity aside from the name, would he still be rejected based on the name itself? I understand that statistics show there's a reason for picking a name like that, but you do have to agree that it's possible its just a name and nothing else.
Consider my situation. My mains name is Larthas, and it's a paladin. I would probably be put in the same bucket as Arthasdk, Evilarthas, Arthass, Legollass, Lolegolas, etc. Thing is, when i was naming him, i honestly never even considered it's "Arthas" with an "L" in front. I just wanted a name and within those 10 seconds, "Larthas" sounded good. I got to about level 18-19 when I realized the stupidity, but by that point, i decided to stick with it to the point that, right now, all my character names are an anagram of Larthas. Hypotheticaly, if I asked to join, would you accept me?
@Nikola: One has to accept responsibility for his former stupidity and pay name change. About "Larthas": actually I wouldn't recognize "arthas" in it if you don't say it specifically. "L-arthas" sounds unnatural, "Lar-thas" is the natural cutting and neither "lar", nor "thas" is stupid. Analogically "Arthasol" sounds ok, while "Arthaslol" absolutely not.
ReplyDelete@Derrek: same. If he have not changed this stupid name, he is indeed not a smart person.
@Squishalot: "All the behavioral rules are apply from the Ganking project." It also contains a link that leads to those rules and there explicitly told against stupid names.
Also, your name is not cosmetic if it has a meaning. Changing "Glotan" to "Goltan" is cosmetic. Changig "rolfdots" to "Rotlar" for example is systemic as it shows exactly that the guy maturated (or got sober).
Gevlon,
ReplyDeleteI don't know if setting the 21st of August as the last attempt for Undergeared is such a good idea. It is the tail end of the summer holidays but it is still in that peroid nonetheless. It would be a shame for all of your and the guild members hard work to go down the toilet just because the date chosen was not a good one.
Why not set at least 2 or 3 weeks as the final attempts?
@Thenoisyrogue: good point, one more date added.
ReplyDeleteReally Gevlon? You're declining people in the PuG for having a stupid name? I can understand it in other projects such as undergeared, however what is the PuG project trying to prove if you're declining people on the grounds of their name? Do actual PuG raids decline people on the grounds of their name? No, and because of this, if you want this to mean anything, I'd suggest you rethink this.
ReplyDeleteYour clearly stated rules that you are requiring everyone to read state absolutely nothing about the name of one's character, so all the latest screenshot shows is you being very rude to someone with genuine interest in your project.
If you're refusing people on the grounds of names, what exactly is the PuG project trying to prove? I'd be interested to know.
@last Anonymous
ReplyDelete- actual pugs think it's ok to have 4 DKs in 10man, shouldn't some of the PuGs habits be corrected?
- if i see a sign of the guy being stupid i decline him for a PuG (name can be one of them), if he also talks like a M&S why bother taking him ? I don't trust that he'll listen when i explain tactics.
Jeanie wrote: I though it would be very un-goblinish to call someone "retarded" and "kiddies" etc?
ReplyDeleteIf I recall, not long ago you define one of the common reaction of social is to attack someone personally (swearing, calling them "retarded" etc.) while the proper action would be to comment on their behaviour, not their personality (ie. that action is stupid and should be fixed etc.).
I think the main difference here is that the social would respond with a 'stfu moron you can't tell me how to play' after being told not to stand in the fire whereas in this case the person talking to Gevlon clearly WAS a retard. I do admit that this explanation is stretching it a bit though, I guess that at the end of the day even Gevlon is only human :-p
As for Undergeared, WoW boredom kicked in for me and I found the $12 a month for four raids with Undergeared a bit steep. Feel free to remove me from the roster unless you are planning to continue the project during Cataclysm or such.
For all the people who defend "Rofldots", thing is, he spoke immature from the start, his speech was a direct proof people with such a name are silly kiddies of "me want" type.
ReplyDeleteHe didn't say something like "I think my name is funny and this is not an RP server but if you don't want me, so be it, I'll look for a different guild."
Instead he started saying stuff like "you're my enemy now", "you have stupider name than me", etc. etc.
If he "matured over his name" at least he would admit "ok I was 13 when I made this char 5 years ago and felt l33tspeak names are funny and cool, I wouldn't do it now but I don't have credit card to pay" - or something like that, instead he insisted his name is "original" and "has no meaning"!
P.S. Some sources state that "idd" is an acronym for "I don't disagree", but the meaning is quite similar to "indeed" so it could be that as well.
@Gevlon:
ReplyDeleteAs far as I know, "IDD" is not indeed in the land of retards, it stands for "I don't disagree", which is basically a stupid way of saying I agree.
Using acronyms (abbreviations that are formed using the initial letters in a phrase) in internet-speak became very common lately. I don't think using ASAP, FYI, TBH, etc. is moronic at all. IDD may or may not belong to that group.
"I don't disagree" is a double negative, so it would be improper English.
ReplyDeleteJust to be pedantic.
On a side note: It might be a good idea for some English teachers to sit in trade chat correcting people. It could be a way of actually teaching people.
It certainly led to some comments when I corrected a "your", "you're" sentence.
Rofldots.
ReplyDeleteI mean seriously - this guy wants to get into a guild that is about doing progression with a name like that?
I personally cringe at some of the fucking retarded names I see on Frostmourne-US. Rofldots is up there with Fearmycrits, Roflstomp, Lmaonator, Idotu etc.
I would have turned him down as well.
@Ulatekso: you can also play in The PuG. We do hard modes, old raids, WG
ReplyDeletea) I created my account back in October 2009. My usual player name was taken, my usual other handles as well. After about 15 minutes of trying to create a toon and having a cigarette break; I just went with 'cigarjoe' instead of 'joe'. I qualify that as a dumb &stupid name and I'm not happy with it. On the other hand people refer to me as 'joe'. So it's only a handle.
ReplyDeleteb) My option here was/is to use the name change feature from Blizzard. However I'm enforced to use my creditcard for that. Which is something I have refused to do ever since the mid 90s. I use a Linux system and my security settings border paranoia mode. However I've seen first hand the trouble people can get into by using their CC online (even by 3rd party mistakes).
Not to mention that I like to keep my private parts private. Blizzard and any other gaming company have no business with who I am and what I do.
If the name change feature was available with something like pre paid cards or PayPal, I wouldn't hesitate a second. The option to reroll is not something I fancy.
While I hate "retard speak" as much as you do, I'm going to play the devil's advocate here: some of the most skilled individuals I've met in this game name their characters in retarded ways ("lol" etc.), and abuse "retard speak". Go figure.
ReplyDelete"I don't disagree" is an example of a litote, which is a double negative that is intended to emphasize a point by means of understatement. While "idd" my be an major obfuscation of the original meaning, it's not poor grammar.
ReplyDeleteI'm under the impression that most people that name their toons things like "Rofldots", "Bladestormlol" and the like often do so because they don't care about the name of the toon. They just wanted to create them so they had a "insert class here" to play and not waste time sitting around thinking deeply about what to name their toon. Yeah of course tons of morons do too, but it's not a telltale characteristic of idiocy.
Rejecting people based on name is simple bigotry and asking them to pay $15 to change it is a bit pretentious. It's really no different than requiring people to have a Lil XT vanity pet to join your guild, except the Lil XT vanity pet won't make cause all of the people on your friends list think you disappeared when you got it...
Rejecting people based on name is simple bigotry
ReplyDeleteThrowing around the word 'retard' as a pejorative is far closer to bigotry than declining to invite an idiot to your guild.
This is just gevlon trying to prove that his arbitrary rules are better than rules that are created with reason in mind.
ReplyDeleteYou can make NO definitive statement about a player based on their name. If you think you can, you are a fool. One of the top ret paladins in the world is in my guild right now, and his name is Clearlylol.
Your desire to control the communication in your guilds violates your "No communist collective" by the way. :P
@Alexie
ReplyDeleteIt is not bigotry. Bigotry is when you do not like someone cause of something they can not help.
Choosing a dumb name is very much thier own choice.
You should have let the guy try out.
ReplyDeleteLeveling up a new character to avoid name-change fee, takes a while.
Paying the fee to change a name in a game isn't something I'd be willing to do, even though 15 or 25 dollars is something I can afford. It just seems obnoxious for blizz to charge a month-worth of fee for a name change.
People pick different toon names for different reasons. He might have felt like creating an obnoxious name, as people often do for pvp toons.
I wonder if the name of my toon would be rejected 'Tiick' (for a lock). I'm not on European servers, so can't join The Pug.
That name is the only obnoxious name I picked, however my main (at some point, I change them often and it's no longer my main now) was Hemonk, a play on He-Man the cartoon 20 years ago, though I think no-one saw that.
Usually my names are based on russian words, such as Drachun (means fighter), Volshebnick (means magician), Littledude ... hmm I guess that's obnoxious, actually had a Lowfatyogurt at some point, but deleted that one.
Nikola is rofldots! My old guild (Nerubian Hunters) had name policy as rule number one when it comes to recruiting. And for a long time we were best strict 10man achi/progress guild in realm. 12k dps is not such a loss if that dps don't know when not to aoe or avoid Putricide's flasks when needed. On the other hand I've seen awesome geared paladins in really good guilds with ashen might ring.
ReplyDeleteFew days ago some lvl16ish guy asked in Westfall why is everybody so silent. WoW has been overrun by Rofldots, Dirtylols, Luvbeasts etcetc. Change game or isolate yourself;)
Rejecting someone on the basis of their name is probably more valid than accepting them on the basis of their gearscore.
ReplyDeleteFor the first half of the conversation Gevlon just sounded like a dick. If the conversation ended there, Rofldots would have sounded like a mature adult. However, he then descended to the same level of name calling and lost all moral superiority. :(
ReplyDeleteGevlon saw the name and just assumed that the guy was a M&S based on nothing else. While the name might have been a valid reason to reject the guy from the guild (his guild, his rules) it was not a valid reason to call him names.
It was the same time of childish reaction as calling someone names because he 'dared' to join a heroic wearing only blues. The M&S will profile the guy and decide that the player is not deserving respect without even bothering to see if the guy is actually any good.
Gevlon had a 'social' moment and jumped to conclusions he could not substantiate at the time he started insulting the guy.
I can see both sides of this. On the one hand, I run raids where I PUG people, including a 25-man ICC GDKP run that usually goes 9/12 in 3 hours. If someone has a bad enough name, I won't invite him. If someone's whisper to me is terribly worded, I won't invite him. I will usually invite someone who sounds intelligent and motivated. For instance: "8k DPS Ret Pally, 6/12, have read strats and watched videos for the rest, I have Vent and a brain" will get an invitation if I need DPS, even though 8k DPS is not impressive in 25s.
ReplyDeleteStill, the other week we had a guy whose name ends in "lol", who is from the top guild (11/12 25HM) on our server; he did absolutely fantastic DPS and played well, including doing whatever it is that mages do to break out of the choking gas on Putricide and keep DPSing.
So I am fine with names with lol, but not people saying lol all the time, nor with offensive names. If a person is not positive and friendly during the raid, I do not invite him back. I've had no problem getting 25 good players together who can play well and contribute to a fun, positive atmosphere.
Gevlon, maybe you should use addon like NameScore (http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info14890-NameScore.html) to evaluate potential guildies :) you could always give the retards percentage value of their retardness level
ReplyDelete@Kewi: Actually, I'm Larthas, Hastral, Lashtar and some other alts that haven't reached 80 yet. I also have a level 80 dk called Auriaya as a banker, because i hear people prefer to buy stuff from girls (pathetic, i know, but I'd be stupid not to use that as an advantage).
ReplyDeleteNow, as an assignment, try and guess which realm I am on.
As for Rofldots, my intention was not to defend him. That guy clearly is a moron and he got what he deserved. What i wanted to know was if the name rule was just there to test how a person behaves when confronted or if it's a rule that is enforced absolutely. If it's the former, that is the same thing i would do. If it's the later, I cant really agree on that 100%, but i can see some logic behind it and still agree on not letting Rofldots join.
@Nikola
ReplyDeleteNo guessing required, you're on Whisperwind.
Nice. Can my mage 'Beercan' join?
ReplyDelete@Magma: I'm afraid you are mistaken. Keep trying though.
ReplyDeleteAccording to the dress standards of companies around the world, not many people would be comfortable to have a co-worker wearing a bathing suit to work in a city (regardless of gender). The reason for the restriction on names is the same, regardless of whether bathing suits are more attractive
ReplyDeleteAfter a long summer vacation and no internet access, I am back home, so I'll be there for the next Undergeared raids. That's at least one more. I hope that we will be able to continue with that project.
ReplyDeleteGevlon: ""All the behavioral rules are apply from the Ganking project." It also contains a link that leads to those rules and there explicitly told against stupid names."
ReplyDeleteA person's name isn't behavioral. You provided a list which included all the behavioral rules from the Ganking guild. If a person in real life acts like a 10 year old, that's a behavior. If a person in real life is named 'Loser' (see Freakonomics), then it's because they have some wacked up parents. They have the option of paying to change their name, in real life too. But some people don't believe that it's worth the cost. It's not a behavioral issue though.
"Also, your name is not cosmetic if it has a meaning. Changing "Glotan" to "Goltan" is cosmetic. Changig "rolfdots" to "Rotlar" for example is systemic as it shows exactly that the guy maturated (or got sober)."
Hate to break it to you, but names are cosmetic. It doesn't matter whether your name is Gevlon or Glotan or Squish or whatever. It's only bigotry from a reader/viewer that gives it any meaning.
To use Larthas's example - what do you think of Squishalot? For reference, I have two Squishalots on separate servers - one is a Prot Warrior, one is a Prot Paladin. Do you think I channelled the characteristics of my chosen classes into a 'retarded' name?
Or, perhaps, it's simply a mashup of Squishy (being a RL nickname) and Lancealot (being a warrior for justice in Arthurian lore), and chosen for RP reasons?
Again, you're jumping to conclusions about the maturity of a player/person based on their name. Any 'meaning' that you see implicit in their name is just bigotry on your part, until you can confirm from them that they chose it for stupid reasons.
Let me summarize.
ReplyDeleteWhile there are no strong facts that prove it, just look at every internet forum or ingame /1 or /2 channels - you can clearly observe that majority of guys with lol-names are not so bright (even if they are trolling! Because conversations with an intelectual troll can be quite entertaining even!).
So, if 90%+ guys with retarded names are also retarded in reality, it's quite obvious that it's is more rational to consider anyone with retarded name retarded, until they prove otherwhise.
Yes, there are exceptions, a Lolarthusdk can perform excellent in a raid, but still spam full /raid with lol-rofl-social nonsense. This also needs to be filtered out at the root level.
The PuG really does not care about someones gearscore or dps, because that is a temporary issue that can be fixed, while it's hard to fix some hardcore retardness! It's content, not gear focused guild!
At least Blizzard was sensible enough to disallow numbers in names! Still, I'd preffer that RP naming policy would apply to all servers.
@Squishalot
ReplyDeleteBut it's quite simple to confirm such things, as clearly shown in this example. All you need is to press the right button, and reaction will tell you everything you may need to know. In fact, second sentence of the mighty Rofldots was quite enough to understand what you can expect from him. Even the first one, actually, as it clearly shown, that the guy hadn't read the rules as he was specifically asked to do prior to apply.
@Aljabra: That's the whole point I'm trying to make. His reaction proved Gevlon assumed correctly. It, however, does not prove the assumption correct in 100% of the cases. The way i understand it, if Rofldots reaction was the absolute best anyone could ever imagine, he would still be rejected on the basis of his name only. That is something i simply cannot agree on.
ReplyDeleteWhat if a person had a silly name but was well known on the server as a mature and rational guy with no known flaws? Would he still be rejected on a name basis?
@Nikola Begedin
ReplyDeleteIt don't need to prove it. There are rules in the guild. You can like them, you can hate them, but if you want to get in and stay in, you must follow them no matter what you think about it. It's not like anyone forces you in, it's your choice. You can very well join any of the thousands other guilds that don't have such a rule, or make your own. Any mature and rational person can understand that, and, if he really want to get in, will do something to follow the rules - change name, make new character, or make his own guild which is exactly the same, but whithout the naming policy. There are very good russian proverb, that say, that you don't go to others church with your rules. It naturally apply here. ;)
@Nikola
ReplyDeleteUnless you lied about something, you ARE on that server. There is only a single death knight named what your alt is, that is also 80. A single one.
@Aljabra: That's all fine, and i agree with it completely. I just stated my disagreement, not a request to change the rules.
ReplyDeleteStill, what I'm saying is, I'm not really sure i would be willing to pay for a namechange or level a new char to 80 just to join a guild. Not many people would. Still, his guild, his rules.
@Nikola Begedin
ReplyDeleteStill most of The PuG population is rerolls - people, that made a new character for exactly this purpose - to get to a guild. Yes, on the grand scale of WoW playerbase it's nothing, but grand scale is for Blizzard to think about, and for the guild you always have some people, who are willing to do something to get in - be it extremely strict application procedure of hardcore raiders, or "have a name that don't look silly" rule of The PuG.
@Aljabra - so you're telling me that saying 'rofl' indicates immaturity, but calling someone's name stupid and calling said person retarded isn't?
ReplyDeleteConsider the conversation.
Rofldots asks if there's a gear requirement.
Gevlon tells him his name doesn't suit because it's stupid.
Rofldots challenges that by saying 'Glotan' isn't any less stupid.
Gevlon says that 'rofldots' is retarded.
Rofldots says that Gevlon is narrowminded and discriminatory (but doesn't necessarily have the vocabulary to convey it properly, fair enough on an EU server).
Gevlon calls Rofldots (the person, not the name) retarded.
To be honest, I don't see how anyone can accuse Rofldots of being the one exhibiting immature behaviour. In sentences 3-5, Gevlon has: a) called his name stupid; b) called his name retarded; and c) called him retarded. Again, that's not a shining example of a mature person.
Note that there are these trends too, when choosing a name.
ReplyDeleteIf you belong to the retarded section for following a trend, I don't know, but names ending with 'lol' is very popular among "high end" arena players.
"High end" arena players usually gets fanboys or similiar that wants to be like them since they have high ratings, and they will make one of those lol-names to "belong to them" or trick people that notice trends such as this one.
'Rofldots' belong to the "easy-going, fun guy"-trend I believe ;)
'idd' for me means indeed. I have never heard of 'I don't disagree' - that just sounds stupid.
@Squishalot
ReplyDeleteI guess you need to consider what exactly I said, as it's quite clear to me, that I never told anything like that.
Try to think about this dialogue once more.
First. Person ask Gevlon of the gear requirements. I heard invitation cry of The PuG plenty of times to be sure, that there IS a link to the rules, and, also, it asks people quite clearly to read the rules before asking to get invited. So it's the first bell ring that person, asking for gear requirements hadn't bothered to read the rules and, quite possibly, retarded (it's quite typical behaviour of most forum retards, making countless threads with question, answered just about million times in sticky topic).
Second. Look closely at Gevlon answer - it is not offensive in any way, it's simple clarification, that by the rules name Rofldots is forbidden from The PuG. There are no word "retarded" anywhere in that reply, you may look all day for it.
Third. Rofldots reply is one more clear indication, that he is indeed lolling retard. Gevlon reply, again, is just answer to the question.
Forth. Reply of Rofldots once again indicates, that he's extremely stupid, as at this point any sane person will understand, that he's not welcome and say his goodbye (or go read the rules, where there are all the reasoning, why such a rule even exist).
And only at this point, when you can give our brave Rofldots a medical sertificate that he's indeed dumb as a brick, Gevlon at least call him what he really is (I hope, you can see enough proof by now). Try to find several differences in this and your own analysis of the conversation.
In fact, I really envious to Gevlon's capability to tolerate morons without starting to tell the naked truth untill so deep in conversation.
@Anonymous
"'Rofldots' belong to the "easy-going, fun guy"-trend I believe ;)"
...which makes him exactly what Gevlon had called him - kid with a stupid name. Correct.
Look, the naming policy exists on Non-RP realms too:
ReplyDeletehttp://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?locale=en_US&articleId=20368
"Rofl" is right in their examples of offending names, and if anyone ever bothered to report this guy to a GM he would get a forced name change and an email with these rules.
But, more importantly, to the argument that "names don't matter" and "names are cosmetic". That's absolutely false. If you hold either belief it does say something about it you. One or more of the following:
1. You don't care about the game. People that don't care may be good at pushing buttons but they are typically flighty and don't have initiative (they require spoonfeeding, will 'get bored' and abandon without notice). Alternatively, they can be "Flavor of the month" players -- they care enough to know what's best but don't care enough to invest in a character they know will abandoned.
2. They are contemptuous of the game, setting, or genre. The central aspect of a role-playing game is the creation and advancement of the character. The character's name supplies continuity of experience (and personal responsibility). That's why names were originally immutable even though there is no technical barrier to changing them. That's why they still carry a relatively high fee -- exactly to discourage name-changing.
3. You crave anonymity, but not because you are whistle blower, revolutionary, targeted minority, or freedom fighter (etc.), but because you crave the attention that repercussion-free harassment and trolling brings. (See also: John Gabriel's Greater Internet [...] Theory)
I could go on, but I feel like I'm ranting at this point.
@ Aljabra:
ReplyDeleteFirstly - not everyone who wants to join the PuG are readers of Gevlon's blog. Did it occur to you (or to Gevlon) that there may be random people running across the guild who think it sounds like a good levelling / gearing up guild?
Secondly - I never said that his first reply was offensive.
Thirdly - the use of 'rofl' is no more retarded than the rhetoric that Gevlon employs later - "Oh noes! A retarded kiddie hates me!" In fact, it's significantly less retarded - usage of common internet acronyms is valid in mature internet conversation. Insults are not.
Fourthly - the reply of Rofldots is in amazement that one name can be considered 'more stupid' than another, when such a thing is, inherently, subjective. And this is a fair criticism of Gevlon's naming restrictions.
Fifthly - Rofldots dropped the conversation by saying "its your loss imo". Gevlon continued it by calling his name retarded. I lost respect for Gevlon's approach right about that point, because he descended into the name calling characteristic of the M&S he despises, becoming nothing more than a hypocritical bully.
@Squishalot
ReplyDeleteOk, let's see what you've got there.
First. Yes, so? There are link to the rules, visible to anyone, who isn't blind or terminally stupid, in that very message, that attracts people to the guild. There are this phrase "read the rules, because we MEAN it" there, right under the link. So no matter, how much someone read this blog, if he want to join the guild, he have all the information he need to get here and get all the answers. Only thing that can prevent one from it is general stupidity.
Second. You sure did. Look: "Gevlon tells him his name doesn't suit because it's stupid.".
Third. Gevlon had a very nice post about internet acronyms and proper use of them. I don't think I can add much there.
Forth. It's hard to amaze someone with the concept, that he completely agree with. Kids can tell a lot about that, you know. How one thing can be more retarded, than another just because the second one belong to them, and the first one don't. Rofldots do demonstrate it petty nicely here.
Fifth. You can be right here, but there are one little thing about it, that makes you wrong. You see, Rofldots hadn't said only that phrase, he said more. And Gevlon answer was to that part. It's polite to answer the questions.
Well, and it's quite obvious at that point, that serious conversation had ben concluded by the phrase, which you can find at line 5 from the top. All below is clearly "have some fun on some random noisy retard expence", which, while it may look not nice, is completely fair game - he must pay for the time he consumed after all.
If Angwe, the Orc Rogue had been named Istabyou would you think any less of him?
ReplyDeleteStatistically, you could assume that a guy named Rofldots isn't any good. But then you're just being as superfical as the "lolgearscore need be 6KK!" people in /2 that you seem to have a grudge against.
i@ Aljbra:
ReplyDeleteFirst - you've missed my point completely. Not everybody reads Gevlon's blog. He could have been an ordinary person on the server, with no knowledge of this blog.
Second - in the first instance, I was referring to the fact that Gevlon was the first person to act rudely.
Third - that fact doesn't take away from the other fact that Gevlon was the first one to start throwing names when he didn't like the conversation.
Fourth - Stupidness of names is relative, especially on the EU servers where there is more than just English to derive names from. The fact of the matter is, he was amazed that someone with a stupid name would/could call his own name stupid. It's hypocrisy, from his perspective. And that's a perfectly reasonable perspective to have.
Fifth - So you're saying it's OK for Gevlon to act like an M&S in his own time? Then I guess it's OK for all the M&S to act like M&S. After all, the "I paid my monthly fee, I can do what I like" is their catch-cry defense. That would be the ultimate in hypocrisy, if Gevlon had said that, but he's smart enough to realise that he's acted like one, and not try to defend his moronic actions (as opposed to his intelligent ones), as you are attempting to.
@Squishalot
ReplyDelete1. It's not me, it's you who missed a point completely. He can be anyone, he can be from Mars, but he still whispered after hearing IN GAME guild invitation. Which contain link to the rules and asks to read them. If you don't understand this for the third time, I don't know how to spell it to you properly. My english is far from ideal, so maybe I just can't find the right words.
2. Sure, but you comment implies, that Gevlon started to act rudely right from the start, where he was calm as an antarctic rock.
3. He didn't started throwing names, he started to tell the truth. If truth is rude and hard to accept, it doesn't deny it from being truth.
4. Well, in this case it's clear, that "Rofldots" is indeed a stupid name to have, and not relative to anything. Especially in a fantasy game setting.
5. Act itself means nothing, it's the reason and context what counts.
But yes, it's OK for M&S to act as M&S, after all it's they nature and acting differently they just try to lie and hide what they really are. Main idea is that isn't the reason to tolerate them, as opposed to the belief that they stupidity and ignorance is enough reason to anyone to give them help and support.
@ Aljabra:
ReplyDelete1. "He can be anyone, he can be from Mars, but he still whispered after hearing IN GAME guild invitation. Which contain link to the rules and asks to read them."
At no point is this illustrated in the screenshot, and is hearsay as far as I'm concerned. All I see is a character whispering Gevlon to see if there are gear requirements. At no point can I see that he is made aware of the site or the rules.
2. My comment is intended to state that Gevlon was the first to be rude. Anything it implies is unintended, and now that you know, you can ignore any other implications. So the point still stands - Gevlon threw the first stone.
3. Again, the stupid 'truth', as you say, is subjective.
4. You could argue that 'Glotan' is stupid, on account of the fact it doesn't mean anything. Again, stupidity is subjective.
5. "Act itself means nothing, it's the reason and context what counts."
Still more hypocrisy. A name in itself means nothing, it's what's behind it that counts.
Gevlon called him retarded because the person disagreed with him on whether or not 'rofldots' or 'glotan' were stupid. He called the name retarded without sufficient objectively defined reason. This is after he called the name stupid, in what was the first stone thrown.
There's no reasonable context in which you can call someone retarded, unless you happen to be a psychologist (or know that the other person has been diagnosed accordingly).
Therefore, Gevlon's screenshot shows him being no better than the M&S that he himself loathes.
"Main idea is that isn't the reason to tolerate them, as opposed to the belief that they stupidity and ignorance is enough reason to anyone to give them help and support."
And so why is it ok to tolerate Gevlon's M&S actions?
@Squishalot
ReplyDelete1. While it's not on the screenshot, I explaned it to you several times, so you now know that everyone is informed. Please, stop acting like you are not aware of this. If you don't believe me, you need only to make level 1 Alliance character on the server, go to any Alliance capital city any evening just before raiding time of The PuG and hear it for yourself.
2. Oh, Gevlon was rude... so what? I don't recall him ever stating himself as someone who's never rude.
In fact, I don't see anything bad in rude behaviour itself. There may be situations when it's not an appropriate behaviour , but for the pure logical reasons, not because it's inappropriate in general.
3. If you tell stupid man that he's stupid it'll be objective truth. And it would be rude too, yes. It may even stop you from doing it. If you care about such things, that is, in Gevlon case, is not the case.
4. Stupidity is not subjective in any case.
And with the names - there are nothing stupid in name, meaning nothing, as in modern world it's usially is so with any name. Even if in some distant past some ancestors of some random John Smith was actually smiths, that doesn't mean he's the one here and now. His name have no real meaning, except that he'll turn to you when you call it. If you state, that all the names, that have no meaning, is stupid, then we have about 6 billions of people out there with a stupid names.
For the character names, though, it may be a little different. Unlike you real name, you choose character name to represent you in a game world. If it have no meaning it's the same as in real life - some way to address you, nothing more. If it have meaning though, it's completely different story, as meaningfull character names are chosen exactly for the reason of telling, who the guy with this name really is.
So you can't say that some name that don't mean anything is stupid (unless it's completely unpronounceable mix of letters), but you very well can say, that name with stupid meaning is stupid.
5. Name itself means nothing if it means nothing. But we sure talking about some other case.
And I guess you again missed the point, why Gevlon called retarded person retarded. It wasn't a name (not only a name). It's all behaviour of the person, behaviour that cry "I'm retarded!!!".
You need to be psychologist for making an official statement, but to understand, that person is stupid you don't need to have a degree in psychology. You just need some sence and know enough symptoms. Most of them are common knowledge anyway.
"And so why is it ok to tolerate Gevlon's M&S actions?"
You do tolerate them? As far as i can see you do exactly the opposite here.
On the other hand, you sure show some help and support to the obviously retarded person just because he's retarded. No idea, why.
@ Aljabra
ReplyDelete1. At no point did you state that his whisper to Gevlon was in reply to a trade-spammed recruitment drive. Considering that plenty of people get random whispers from wannabe applicants to guilds, I'm not going to assume anything.
2. Gevlon's made it clear in the past that insults and name calling are for the stupid M&S.
3. If you tell stupid man that he's stupid then you're bigoted for assuming that he's stupid, based on limited knowledge.
4. The stupidity of names is incredibly subjective. Why is 'Glotan' not stupid? Is 'Squishalot' stupid or not stupid? How about 'Bubbleobill'? Or 'Dragon'? Or 'Imadragon', even? Should I call your name, 'Aljabra' stupid, because it's not spelt correctly in English?
Names are subjective, and purely in the eye of the beholder. Meaning that any assessment of a stupid name is bigoted unless you understand the reasons for their choice. Gevlon thinks he knows why Rofldots called himself that. He doesn't actually know, meaning that he jumped the gun in labelling it stupid.
5. Stupid =/= retarded, and if you claim it is, then you clearly fall into the former category.
Here - a link for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_retardation
Calling stupid people 'retards' is offensive to all people who actually suffer from the psychological disability.
"You do tolerate them? As far as i can see you do exactly the opposite here."
If you didn't understand that I'm criticising your tolerance of Gevlon's M&S actions, then I've got no real further business discussing anything with you.
"On the other hand, you sure show some help and support to the obviously retarded person just because he's retarded."
Again, your bigoted view of the world is offensive. Is it alright to throw stones at the homeless? No. Likewise, there is no excuse for being rude. Rofldots may be stupid, but Gevlon only sank to his level.
Anyway, Gevlon's posted a reply to the comments here, so I won't frequent this post anymore.
would you please login to discuss an invite to Undergeared ?
ReplyDeletethank you,
Radu
@RadunKing: I'll surely be online before the raid, Saturday. (If you can't be online on the raid, you can't raid anyway)
ReplyDeleteholy shit i wish i knew about this guild earlier would of totally been up for it, but unfortunately im on the US servers
ReplyDeleteWhat a pathetic method of judging someone, some people enjoy using so called "retarded" to have a laugh.
ReplyDeleteCheck tonydatiger on US armory, everyone in their guild (ARE U CEREAL) decided to rename to a cereal name..yet they are some of the best PVPers in game (majority of them are alts aswell)
Check scarletruby on EU armory...a multiboxing deathknight in which all 5 of his deathknights have a lot of gear including shadowmourne on each DK, and good gear/experience...and all of his names are after gems such as twilight opal.
You need knocking down a peg or two, and grow up.
"What a pathetic method of judging someone" - just a quote of a poster which makes me shake my head. Gevlon aka Glotan is free to run his guild (read: he is the guild master) as he sees fit. About pathetic judging I can give an example which happens frequently in my real life with peers or colleagues at work. They gasp: "Oh my god, how much sugar are you putting into your coffee! It's unhealthy/unusual/!"
ReplyDeleteReaders: I drink *one* coffee a day (in the morning) and I enjoy it sweet. At the same time those who judge me on more than average sugar "abuse" in one coffee, continue their day with drinking 1-2 liters of classic (non light/diet) Coca Cola and never judge me when watching me down a whole bottle of Coca Cola in a time span of 5 minutes. Now is it safe to say that generally humans have lack of perspective? Or is it better to say: think before you speak.
I little help for those who still do not get the point: research how much sugar a bottle of Coca Cola contains.