Tobold made a very interesting post from "blood elf porn" that was given to him exactly to be a bad post idea. Touche!
However his explanation did not satisfy me: "It is a lot cheaper to pay a porn actress with fake elf ears than to create good enough 3D models with life-like animations. Well-animated MMORPGs cost many millions of dollars, and the ubiquity of free pornography on the internet makes it doubtful that a company could make a profit on a blood elf porn MMORPG." I mean it would also be cheaper to create an adventure movie than an adventure MMO and yet there are adventure MMOs. Even very successful adventure movies cannot suppress MMOs, on the opposite, they create interest in the world displayed in the movie and soon an MMO is created in that world (LotRO, STO, SW). People want to act in this world as it is more than just watching. People want to fight the Lich King, want to drive their own Klingon Warbird and definitely want to swing their own lightsabre. Why are they satisfied with watching porn when they could actively roleplay it? Please note that "they can have sex IRL" is not a good answer. If people would be satisfied with their IRL sex, there would be no porn. The question is why do they prefer watching porn instead of doing porn?
I've read up lot of materials about porn. The most interesting fact about it is mostly men watch it, despite women also like to have sex. Most women find porn repulsive while most men find it fun and inspiring. Feminists claim porn is abusing women, while the supporters of porn claim it to be nonsense as the "normal" porn movie is symmetrical: a man (or many men) do the same what the woman (or many women): having sex and enjoying it. While there are brutal porn movies where the character (and sometimes the actor also) abused, but these also have male-brutalizing versions. So there is no reason to claim that it's worse to women than to men.
I'd like to mention that I never liked porn. In college there was a rumor that I'm gay, simply because I don't like porn and "all real men want to watch porn". I couldn't explain my resent, it was a gut-feeling. I got the explanation while reading for this article. A sexual psychologist wrote (unfortunately in Hungarian) that women don't like the unfavored comparison with the porn actress. I mean the porn actress definitely look better than them, especially in the intimate parts and also shows much better sexual skills. The women feel that they are much worse than that woman and the fact that their partner is turned on by that woman can even intimidate them. This is same reaction that I felt about porn: a good looking, all-muscle guy with a 10-inch penis staying hard for hours is definitely not someone I want to spend my evenings with.
However the above explanation rise a question: why do the "normal" men don't care about the guy who is much more attractive and potent than they are. Why only women (and me) care about this? Again: porn is symmetrical, it does the same to men as to women. Why men love it?
Then it hit me: men and women are valued differently socially. Women above all must be beautiful according to the social canon, while men must have high social standing. From this point of view porn becomes extremely asymmetrical. The female character is socially very desirable: young and beautiful. On the other hand the male character is a loser: usually he is the gardener boy, the milkman, some blue-collar handyman arriving to a high-society home. If his social standing is not emphasized (like he appear naked without any sign of being gardener-boy), his social standing is assumed average, while the social standing of the woman is always emphasized as high by her beauty and sexyness.
The reason why men don't bother about the male character is that they feel that they already have - or after college soon will have - higher standing. A social woman would choose them instead of a gardener-boy. So they have no problem imagining themselves to his place. The movie suggests "Look what this super woman does this lowly gardener-boy! Imagine what she would do for a respectable man like yourself!"
The feminists are right - despite only in a twisted social way: the porn movie abuses women in general, since the sex between a high-social-value woman and low-social-value man obviously assumes coercion. Of course the porn-supporters are also right when they claim that the asymmetry does not exists, since it is only in the head of the socials. In the rational plane the film is symmetrical: a high-sexual-value woman has sex with a high-sexual-value man.
This also explains why there cannot be successful mainstream porn MMO: the relation of players must be symmetrical in any MMO (as no one would play with the unfavored class), so a porn-MMO cannot re-create the "I'm the #1 male around" feeling that the male viewer of a porn movie has.
PS: a tip to pornographers how to make a porn movie that can be sold to women: picture average looking women having a relationship and sex with a successful and handsome lawyer or doctor in his luxury car/appartment.
Note to trigger-happy feminists: I do not claim that the value of woman depends on her beauty, the socials do that (subconsciously as beauty implies health, high reproductive power, and reproduction is everything to socials and other animals).
However his explanation did not satisfy me: "It is a lot cheaper to pay a porn actress with fake elf ears than to create good enough 3D models with life-like animations. Well-animated MMORPGs cost many millions of dollars, and the ubiquity of free pornography on the internet makes it doubtful that a company could make a profit on a blood elf porn MMORPG." I mean it would also be cheaper to create an adventure movie than an adventure MMO and yet there are adventure MMOs. Even very successful adventure movies cannot suppress MMOs, on the opposite, they create interest in the world displayed in the movie and soon an MMO is created in that world (LotRO, STO, SW). People want to act in this world as it is more than just watching. People want to fight the Lich King, want to drive their own Klingon Warbird and definitely want to swing their own lightsabre. Why are they satisfied with watching porn when they could actively roleplay it? Please note that "they can have sex IRL" is not a good answer. If people would be satisfied with their IRL sex, there would be no porn. The question is why do they prefer watching porn instead of doing porn?
I've read up lot of materials about porn. The most interesting fact about it is mostly men watch it, despite women also like to have sex. Most women find porn repulsive while most men find it fun and inspiring. Feminists claim porn is abusing women, while the supporters of porn claim it to be nonsense as the "normal" porn movie is symmetrical: a man (or many men) do the same what the woman (or many women): having sex and enjoying it. While there are brutal porn movies where the character (and sometimes the actor also) abused, but these also have male-brutalizing versions. So there is no reason to claim that it's worse to women than to men.
I'd like to mention that I never liked porn. In college there was a rumor that I'm gay, simply because I don't like porn and "all real men want to watch porn". I couldn't explain my resent, it was a gut-feeling. I got the explanation while reading for this article. A sexual psychologist wrote (unfortunately in Hungarian) that women don't like the unfavored comparison with the porn actress. I mean the porn actress definitely look better than them, especially in the intimate parts and also shows much better sexual skills. The women feel that they are much worse than that woman and the fact that their partner is turned on by that woman can even intimidate them. This is same reaction that I felt about porn: a good looking, all-muscle guy with a 10-inch penis staying hard for hours is definitely not someone I want to spend my evenings with.
However the above explanation rise a question: why do the "normal" men don't care about the guy who is much more attractive and potent than they are. Why only women (and me) care about this? Again: porn is symmetrical, it does the same to men as to women. Why men love it?
Then it hit me: men and women are valued differently socially. Women above all must be beautiful according to the social canon, while men must have high social standing. From this point of view porn becomes extremely asymmetrical. The female character is socially very desirable: young and beautiful. On the other hand the male character is a loser: usually he is the gardener boy, the milkman, some blue-collar handyman arriving to a high-society home. If his social standing is not emphasized (like he appear naked without any sign of being gardener-boy), his social standing is assumed average, while the social standing of the woman is always emphasized as high by her beauty and sexyness.
The reason why men don't bother about the male character is that they feel that they already have - or after college soon will have - higher standing. A social woman would choose them instead of a gardener-boy. So they have no problem imagining themselves to his place. The movie suggests "Look what this super woman does this lowly gardener-boy! Imagine what she would do for a respectable man like yourself!"
The feminists are right - despite only in a twisted social way: the porn movie abuses women in general, since the sex between a high-social-value woman and low-social-value man obviously assumes coercion. Of course the porn-supporters are also right when they claim that the asymmetry does not exists, since it is only in the head of the socials. In the rational plane the film is symmetrical: a high-sexual-value woman has sex with a high-sexual-value man.
This also explains why there cannot be successful mainstream porn MMO: the relation of players must be symmetrical in any MMO (as no one would play with the unfavored class), so a porn-MMO cannot re-create the "I'm the #1 male around" feeling that the male viewer of a porn movie has.
PS: a tip to pornographers how to make a porn movie that can be sold to women: picture average looking women having a relationship and sex with a successful and handsome lawyer or doctor in his luxury car/appartment.
Note to trigger-happy feminists: I do not claim that the value of woman depends on her beauty, the socials do that (subconsciously as beauty implies health, high reproductive power, and reproduction is everything to socials and other animals).
31 comments:
Sex in porn is as realistic as some hero guy solo killing hundreds of 'bad guys', which can't even aim, in an action movie.
actually, about 30% of women visit sexually themed websites. It was in the new york times recently, I'll look it up.
Gevlon can I suggest you re-read your own article ?
This does not come across as a well balanced critique of pornography but rather a diatribe of self justification from someone who doesn't like porn.
Not liking porn is perfectly acceptable, some people don't like spiders, some people don't like apple crumble, others don't like porn. It doesn't indicate your sexuality is wrong, despite what your college peers might have thought.
@Jana: no doubt, but still there are MMOs where you kill hundredths of monsters in a row. Why there are no porn-MMOs?
@Chewy: I do NOT want to criticize pornography. I just want to figure out why there are no porn MMOs.
Porn MMO = The Sims Online? Whatever became of that?
From what i've read about Second Life you can be a prostitute if you want to be.
I think you have some good points there.
Another factor that I think makes porn more appealing to men than to women, is that it offers men an illusion that it cannot offer women: in porn it is suggested that a man can have sex with any women whenever he wants to. For women this is mostly already true in reality, so porn has nothing to offer them.
@Gevlon
Actually there is at least one "porn MMO" - Red Light Center: http://www.redlightcenter.com/
Do you know who the most iconic male porn actor is? Ron Jeremy, the fat, hairy ugly little man.
Porn loving man like to pretend that they are the man with that sexy girl moaning for them. its not about social standing, its about vicarious enjoyment. those buff porn actors? they are not for men, they are for women, who yes, watch porn, they just don't admit it as openly as men do.
Men are not bothered by blue collar characers getting all these lovely sexy girls because they like to pretend to be them. they feel better about themselves because if some lowly ugly little plumber can get a hot chick on her knees, so can he. Its the same principle behind beer commercials.
Its not as terrible nowadays for a woman to admit to liking porn, so in addition to PoV lots of closeups of the genital action mixed with closeups of moaning female faces - you have porn that is specifically marketed to women by women.
and speaking of a costs of creating 3d models vs hiring an actress - there is 3d animation porn out there and its only getting more popular.
but why not MMO? because once sex is done, what exactly is there to do? there are no porn MMO's because they wouldn't provide enough content to be profitable to run. In addition to that in MMO you cannot just watch some guy to twist and contort into exotic positions, and figure out what goes next - you have to make it up yourself! you have to actually think it up. average porn loving male doesn't want to BE creative, he wants to PRETEND he's creative without having to make an effort.
Why do so many women dislike porn? No, its not because they compare unfavorably to surgery enhanced porn actresses. Just look at romance novels and heroine descriptions - they are far more perfect then porn actresses could ever hope to be, and yet romance novels are the most popular selling fiction genre out there.
Women dislike porn, because typical porn IS all about gratifying a man (or several men). Positions, angles, specific acts, money shots, the fact that you see all these women moaning like crazy, yet you rarely see them have an orgasm, but male orgasm is a crowning glory of vast majority of porn. I haven't seen every single porn movie out there, so I will not claim 100%, but what I have seen, regardless of the type of porn - men come. that's how you know the scene is ending.
That would be part of the reason why feminists claim that porn is degrading. Because it turns women into objects of male gratification and not all women like that (amazingly enough some do - fetish porn and fetish practices in general are just as popular among women as they are among men)
Seriously, have you ever spent at least an hour in Second Life?
I think the reason for the lack of porn-MMO's is down to the image quality.
Men inherently are predominately visually stimulated where as women are more balanced in there choice of stimulation (touch, smell, etc).
Given the choice of a computer generated model or a real model a human is pre-disposed to the real model.
There is of course exceptions to every rule but in this case its where peoples biology is picking the best option.
"PS: a tip to pornographers how to make a porn movie that can be sold to women: picture average looking women having a relationship and sex with a successful and handsome lawyer or doctor in his luxury car/appartment."
The closest thing you'll find to that is Twilight.
A few reasons for why there is no (wellknown) MMO porn movies out there:
1) The traditional porn industry is struggling. It's previous distribution network is crumbling. People simply don't buy porn movies anymore, they find it online. Ofc, movies are made for paid porn sites too, but my point is that the traditional way of producing and selling porn is disappearing.
2) The largest trend in porn these days is amateurs and other home made flicks that works well with Web 2.0 solutions for streaming video.
3) Having a interest for something doesn't equate with a need to indulge that interest sexually.
4) I have seen my share of either poorly animated belf porn, or well drawn pictures with WoW toons. This type of production has more in common with fandom and fan production then a launch toward the "next big porn flick".
5) License issues. Since WoW is for kids, I doubt anyone in Blizz would allow their content to be used in a sexual way.
Lastly: This post seemed very untypical of you. i never thought I would see the day when the goblin sided with the feminists :) But it's always good to see men admitting that they simply don't like porn. Just like saying "no women like porn" is a fallacy, same goes for "all men watch it".
"I just want to figure out why there are no porn MMOs."
Actually even with wow there was a model/texture edit for nudity for those purposes, and was one reason why they are so strict with model texture edits now. Aside from wow, they exist, they just aren't widely known, available, or easy to find.
Gevlon,
You should read this paper. Sexual Economics: Sex as Female Resource for Social Exchange
in Heterosexual Interactions
http://www.csom.umn.edu/Assets/71503.pdf
It refutes a few of the points that you make, but it is an economic/Goblin approach. I think you will like it.
Why are they satisfied with watching porn when they could actively roleplay it? Please note that "they can have sex IRL" is not a good answer. If people would be satisfied with their IRL sex, there would be no porn.
I think you dismiss this argument a bit too easily. Watching things is easy, and people watch all kinds of crap all the time. They watch bad soap operas even though they also get juicy gossip from their real friends; they watch home improvement shows even they could clean up their own hovel instead. Likewise they can be interested in watching porn even though they have access to real sex.
However, actually playing things out takes a lot more effort in comparison, and there has to be a good reason to prefer the "play pretend" game over the real thing. In the case of an adventure MMO for example, it allows you to do things that you couldn't possibly do in real life, and without the negative repercussions (e.g. being an adventurer without the physical exertion and actual danger). But what would be the incentive to have pretend sex as opposed to the real thing? They are pretty much equally accessible, and the former would lose out on most of the physical sensations that make the real thing interesting.
"Why are they satisfied with watching porn when they could actively roleplay it? Please note that "they can have sex IRL" is not a good answer. If people would be satisfied with their IRL sex, there would be no porn."
To be honest, I think you've dismissed the answer to your own question - they can't have it IRL. They can't roleplay BDSM. They can't roleplay the Night Elf Rogue doing the strip tease. Whether this is because they value monogamy and have a greater / more varied sexual appetite than their partner, or because they are (relatively) single and don't have unlimited (free) access to partners for said behaviour.
Casual sex tends to be precisely that - casual sex. For roleplay, there needs to be a deeper connection between two people, a common bond, trust, if you will. If you don't have a partner with whom you can partake in such activities, and are unwilling to pay $150/hr (or whatever brothel rates are) for it, then porn is the obvious option.
The reason I don't like most porn is that it looks more painful than fun. The guy's dicks are half flaccid, and the women are barely lubricated if at all. The actors rarely make it look as if they are actually enjoying each other's bodies, instead robotically performing the crucial genitalia act over and over.
Watching a typical porn makes me think of bad sex. Those times I was dating and found myself in bed with someone where things seemed right at first, but then something just didn't click (smell, sex style, something), and we went through with it because it was easier than trying to go back across that rubikan.
But there is porn that I like, even if it's quite rare.
When one of us can find porn that is actually hot, my wife and I will watch it together until we click it off and have monster sex. It's not about replacing sex at all, but about enjoying something together that turns us on and makes our sex even better. When porn is good, it's like watching a good movie that happens to be a major turn on. Also, some of the better "porn" out there isn't labeled as such. Try "9 1/2 weeks", for instance.
But 99% of what's labeled as "porn" is obviously made to appeal to people who are into something very different from what turns me on.
"I mean it would also be cheaper to create an adventure movie than an adventure MMO and yet there are adventure MMOs."
1. You sure about that? The last Indiana Jones movie cost 185 million. Age of Conan only cost 25 million. Besides, you're comparing apples and oranges here. Movies are a different form of entertainment than MMOs
@Gevlon
I wrote "critique" which is subtly different from criticism.
@Gnome
The book is better.
I think that guys that enjoy porn are able to project themselves into the role of the muscular adonis with the massive penis that stays hard for hours on end and the endless supply of nubile women. It's similar to why so many stories have a specific lead character, or a character from whose perspective the story is told-- to allow us to step into that person's shoes.
I can see why a woman would be less inclined to view porn if it is being made with the male audience in mind, as there may not be a specific character that she wants to share a perspective with.
Publishers will produce a porn MMORPG as soon as they are sure that it will be profitable. I don't know if it's cheaper or not to produce lots of porn films or one MMORPG, but for publishers of porn the movie/magazine/etc are a known quantity, large-scale online community-based games not so much.
"PS: a tip to pornographers how to make a porn movie that can be sold to women: picture average looking women having a relationship and sex with a successful and handsome lawyer or doctor in his luxury car/apartment."
... Then it hit me - Pretty Woman anyone? (or Eliza Doolittle, but there is no explicit sex in this one) Now we know why these kind of movies is so successful.
@Chewy
You might be a new reader, but the thing you're missing is that numerous Goblin posts are just "diatribes of self justification."
Do you like collecting pets and mounts? The Goblin thinks that's dumb and has no justification, you foolish social kiddie.
Do you enjoy doing old raid content for the experience of it? That's quality entertainment, time well spent.
I enjoy the Goblin, else I would not read him, but I think the blog would benefit from a closer examination of the logic involved.
Gevlon,
The reason it is mainly women who disapprove of porn is the same reason it’s mostly women who disapprove of the sex industry. Women biologically control sex and they want to place a high price on sexual relief. Porn and prostitutes allow men sexual relief for a cheap price therefore lower the market value for all women. Women rights groups that protest against the porn industry are essentially the same people you used to name and shame on your blog as M&S who wanted to fix prices in the glyph market.
Romances in which a poor girl falls in love with and marries a rich and/or powerful man are the female equivalent of pornography.
There is a very good essay online that covers this and several other issues about modern feminism, economics porn and the sex industry called ‘The Misandry Bubble’ found at (http://www.singularity2050.com/2010/01/the-misandry-bubble.html) that you may be interested in I’d be interested in your views if you read it actually.
Why are there no porn MMO's? Why would I want to look at a cartoon having sex when I can look at (and talk to) REAL people having sex?
If real porn were illegal and actually prevented on the internet or anywhere else, you'd surely see more cartoon sex. There is some, but it's certainly a fringe fan club.
Before photography there was a huge underground market for risque paintings/sketches. Photography slowly replaced that. When movies were accessible to a private person, that slowly replaced (or added to) stills. Now you can literally turn on your computer and have whatever turns you on, LIVE in front of you. Free or for a very nominal fee.
Gevlon I'm disappointed that you didn't bring in your ape-subroutine argument into this.
Breathing, thirst, sex, hunger in that order.
Males have a stronger visual drive to arousal, when sex presents little risk of attack and can be accomplished quickly, evolution supported quick, opportunistic strategies to pass on DNA. "Satellite" males in a group dominated by a single male had to be especially opportunistic, quick, gracious, and offer rewards to not be squealed on.
Females also have a strong drive for the act (or else why would any female take the risk?), but the huge risk of pregnancy (which can result in mouths to feed or death) supports a more thoughtful, planned approach. Which includes security/protection for the life of the offspring.
Men in general seem more able to "compartmentalize" sexual feelings and actions than women.
FYI the average view time of pornography on the net is about 13 minutes. That doesn't leave much time for leveling tradeskills...
The average man was supposedly what made Ron Jeremy so popular - any man could dream that he would be so 'lucky'
I enjoyed this blog entry. I also had a little giggle:
"a good looking, all-muscle guy with a 10-inch penis staying hard for hours is definitely not someone I want to spend my evenings with."
Neither do I! That's a monster!!
To Anonymous #1: "sexually themed websites" are not the same as what is generally accepted as a "porn site", which would be something with a lot of videos/images. Women are MUCH more likely to visit something like literotica.com - it's not less sexual, it's just less 'visual'.
And I think you really hit the reasoning (about liking/disliking porn) on the head for a lot of people.
@Monkfish
No, I'm not a new reader and I too enjoy the content, mostly.
Where I feel this article differs is that it isn't entirely based on logic but rather a bad feeling from many years ago.
Gevlon isn't a Vulcan.
I have to say, this is the first time I have ever heard anyone claim that the reason people watch (or don't watch) porn is because of the plot and the characters. I always assumed it was about the sex....
Trigger happy feminist here to say that you're rather broadly generalizing the feminist community. In reality, there's a (mostly) generational split on our attitudes toward porn. While all can agree that some porn is misogynist, the most recent generation would not broaden that to include all porn. In fact, this becomes crazy on the face of it when you start to look at gay and lesbian porn.
And indeed, that's where your analysis seems weak to me too. Gay men are HUGE consumers of porn and yet don't construct their porn the way you describe.
There's lots and lots more that could be said, of course. From all of the bloodflow-in-genitals studies (and how those do and don't align with self reporting), to physiologically what it takes to climax for the sexes.
PS As for porn-MMOs, well, the closest thing we have is the sex roleplaying subculture on Second Life. While Adult rated land makes up about 6% of the land, a much much larger percentage of the population participates in it.
"PS: a tip to pornographers how to make a porn movie that can be sold to women: picture average looking women having a relationship and sex with a successful and handsome lawyer or doctor in his luxury car/appartment."
Enter the soap opera.
@ gevlon
the reason why men are more interested in porn women has almost nothing to do with social status. Comparatively men are stimulated by their visual experiences. Thus pornography scratches that itch.
i think because you're looking for a Social reason for women enjoying pornography more than man, you found (read: invented) one.
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