I got a comment many times in different forms. On an mmo-champion thread (about our ToC raid) I got it in a very pure form: "Gevlon will not convince those who do not want to listen, those who do not want to learn, those who do not want to read, because they will not listen, learn or read! His only public are the already educated, who, as you well say, do know the fact that gear is not a synonym of skill."
At first, this is true. The M&S doing 900 DPS in T9 while standing in the fire, blaming his "low gear" for both will never read it. If someone informs him ingame, his answer would be either "i dont belif it" or "dont be mean dud its just a game" or simply "lol". He does not want to be better, so he can't care less about any display of "skill > gear".
At first, this is true. The M&S doing 900 DPS in T9 while standing in the fire, blaming his "low gear" for both will never read it. If someone informs him ingame, his answer would be either "i dont belif it" or "dont be mean dud its just a game" or simply "lol". He does not want to be better, so he can't care less about any display of "skill > gear".
But he is not the target. Nor he is the problem in WoW. He is just a product of the problem: sociality. There are many good players in WoW. Maybe not stellar players ready for ICC25HC, but good enough to clear all normal content after farming some gear. Most of them did not see anything beyond Saurfang. Why? Because their friendly, helpful nature make them boost M&S.
These friendly, helpful people are the reason why M&S can exist. Without them, they wouldn't be able to complete a HC, as they would all be kicked. They would not be able to complete even the Noth weekly. They would not be taken into any guild that does anything than more lolling in Dalaran on bikes. They would have no better gear than triumph-badge and that badges would come very slowly as they would always be kicked after the first-second boss. They would leave the game or learn that their attitude (RL quality) is bad. They would face it that this attitude is not accepted and they must change or find themselves excluded from all group activities.
But there are friendly, helpful people who prefer "being with friends" over "being with competent people", despite their "friends" are just pixels on a screen without any living connection. They cater the scum, supporting their useless existence. They lie to themselves every day, claiming that the M&S are just "undergeared" or "do not play enough" to be good.
These people are not stupid, illiterate, lolling scum. They are good (or average) players and reasonable people. They are just social. Their mind was poisoned from early age with nonsense like "help the poor" or "you are lucky to have this and that" or "follow your heart". Yet they are not beyond help. If they would be, they would be another 900 DPS DK. The point is that they expect performance from themselves, they are aware that their own performance depend on their own work. They just don't apply the same rules to others. They are the opposite of anti-socials who believe "I deserve more than others". These social people believe "others deserve more than me and I'm obliged to provide for them".
They are the target of Undergeared. I want to prove them that:
Other important thing is that in an environment where M&S is catered, the rational move is to be lazy since you are carried too. We see all the time people who double their DPS after warned that they are low and will be kicked. So stopping helping the M&S would "magically" fix these rational-lazy people too!
These friendly, helpful people are the reason why M&S can exist. Without them, they wouldn't be able to complete a HC, as they would all be kicked. They would not be able to complete even the Noth weekly. They would not be taken into any guild that does anything than more lolling in Dalaran on bikes. They would have no better gear than triumph-badge and that badges would come very slowly as they would always be kicked after the first-second boss. They would leave the game or learn that their attitude (RL quality) is bad. They would face it that this attitude is not accepted and they must change or find themselves excluded from all group activities.
But there are friendly, helpful people who prefer "being with friends" over "being with competent people", despite their "friends" are just pixels on a screen without any living connection. They cater the scum, supporting their useless existence. They lie to themselves every day, claiming that the M&S are just "undergeared" or "do not play enough" to be good.
These people are not stupid, illiterate, lolling scum. They are good (or average) players and reasonable people. They are just social. Their mind was poisoned from early age with nonsense like "help the poor" or "you are lucky to have this and that" or "follow your heart". Yet they are not beyond help. If they would be, they would be another 900 DPS DK. The point is that they expect performance from themselves, they are aware that their own performance depend on their own work. They just don't apply the same rules to others. They are the opposite of anti-socials who believe "I deserve more than others". These social people believe "others deserve more than me and I'm obliged to provide for them".
They are the target of Undergeared. I want to prove them that:
- "I don't have gear" is a lie, the normal content needs no gear (beyond readily available to any lvl 80).
- "I have RL, I can't farm like Ensidia" is a lie since no farming is needed.
- "I was unlucky with void zone" is a lie. While luck chooses who get void zone, but staying in one is not matter of luck.
- "I have no time to raid 5 days a week" is no excuse for being useless. We play 1 day a week.
Other important thing is that in an environment where M&S is catered, the rational move is to be lazy since you are carried too. We see all the time people who double their DPS after warned that they are low and will be kicked. So stopping helping the M&S would "magically" fix these rational-lazy people too!
Long time reader, first time poster.
ReplyDeleteThis outline is succinct.
This objective is praiseworthy.
I enjoy what you are doing, even though my own philosophies are more theistically-driven.
Interestingly though, in a way you are "help[ing] the poor" because you are educating the people to take responsibility for themselves, and forcing the ignorant into such a painful position that they must adopt a different approach.
The 'victim mentality' drives me nuts.
A slight caveat emptor.
ReplyDeleteWhile in WoW, to any competent player who is unlucky and who is bad is readily obvious since everyone has the same starting line, (We all start at level 1, and, give or take the RL influence of a decent PC, everyone can achieve most anything with enough work and preparation) the RL comparation is decidedly more shakey.
To put it into perspective, not everyone who's poor IRL is poor because they're bad at RL. Unfortunately, the kid born in a sub-saharan dictatorship may or may not be worse by someone born in Norway (country with the highest HDI last time I checked). However, he's a decidedly huge disadvantage when 'starting out'.
The guy who just happened to have his life work lost in an earthquake is not worse at RL than the one who didn't. Sure, you can argue that he's stupid for living on the edge of a tectonic plate, but that argument is shakey, since not everyone can choose where they live.
Ultimately, I agree that in WoW there really is no 'bad luck', however I believe you're too quick on dismissing it from RL.
Fair enough, people should know to meake a distinction though. WoW is equal opportunities, equal starting grounds. RL really isn't.
I think the weakness of your argument lies in "We play 1 day a week." While it is certainly true that you only raid one day a week as a group, the perception is that the people in the group are all highly experienced players that have cleared these raids many times, probably on hard mode, and know the game inside and out. The 'class inexperienced' argument isn't enough to contradict that. Most 'serious' players know all class abilities to a certain degree. This will give your project just that little hint of doubt which will allow your reasonably competent social to ignore it.
ReplyDelete*lector not emptor.
ReplyDeleteI blame rusty latin.
What makes you think that the M&S will actually believe you?
ReplyDeleteMost of them are very ignorant, surely they don't want to know that full T9 isn't undergeared for ToC or ICC, and that they ought to be doing almost 5 times as much DPS than they are now.
>> "I have no time to raid 5 days a week" is no excuse for being useless. We play 1 day a week.
ReplyDeleteThat's a bit unfair statement. You play 1 day a week for the undergeared guild. But I don't think I would be wrong if I assumed that most of the players in Undergeared play on alts/mains the rest of the week and that they have cleared all raids done by Undergeared many times before on their other characters.
Experience matters a lot and it is much easier for an experienced player to complete a raid dungeon in blues than it is for a guildless social in T9 who is happy to get into a decent pug raid group once a month, because most of them don't accept him because he has less than 6k GS and no achievements (this applies even more so for the not-so-decent raid groups!).
@ first Anonymous
ReplyDeleteThe perception is wrong then. It's not true that all of the members have cleared all the content multiple times and know the bosses inside out. Some had never even stepped foot inside Ulduar or ToC before we cleared thsoe instances. I also doubt that many of them have gone much further than 4/12 in ICC normal.
OMG. You want to help stupid socials to understand The Truth about M&S?!!!
ReplyDeleteWhat next? Helping people to be polite?
While I agree that retard is retard, sometimes the non-retard PUG will invite a 900 dps retard (and I'm talking about the amazing feat of doing 900 dps will a full set of external 25-man buffs applied).
ReplyDeleteWhy?
Because if you're 23 people and you're playing on a low-pop server, it's better to pad out with two idiots than wait anotjer 30 minutes in the hope that two non-retards who aren't already saved log on.
Just add them, let them die when they die, and tell them to shut up and prostrate themself in gratitude that you're carrying their sorry arses through content they don't even deserve to watch from a distance.
@ Gevlon
ReplyDeleteGrinding epic pixels with bigger numbers isn't just for the M&S.
I grind those pixels because I'm a lazy sod. Bigger numbers mean I have to invest less effort in making sure I'm the last one to die on every wipe (tank here).
Of course I'm aware those resources are being invested in the grinding, but there's a tactcal benefit gained from having to do less during the actual encounter -- I have more time to assess what the **** people are doing when they die left and right to things they should have avoided in the first place.
Assuming they're not retards, and to be honest most of them aren't, I can use that information to avoid a second wipe, and thus save myself excess time on a boss that should have died the first time.
@Andru: That argument has been brought on and discussed probably half a dozen times in comments of various posts (iirc, the latest time was around the time when Gevlon announced the starting of Undergeared project).
ReplyDeleteI don't think that any conclusion has (or could) ever be made about that discussion. Ultimately, it goes along the line of "yes RL is unfair from the starting point, and not everyone would be capable of being the first class billionaire/champion etc. But everyone CAN move past the point of being a welfare leecher. If you don't, you're a M&S."
@Anonymus
ReplyDelete"OMG. You want to help stupid socials to understand The Truth about M&S?!!!
What next? Helping people to be polite?"
Did you even read the post? If you did, do it again and try to understand what was being said.
Maladroite, maybe some sort of biography post describing the core raiders would help then. every time I see this project or Gevlon's earlier blue Ulduar clear come up on a message board, most people are quick to dismiss it as highly experienced no-lifers that min maxed the hell out of their gear, knew the fight well beforehand, had the perfect raid composition, knew each other very well, and had a lot of luck.
ReplyDeleteof course there will always be some that just refuse to believe it, but if there are documented answers to all those claims then it will certainly make it harder to ignore.
Ruby Sanctum is opening up.
ReplyDeleteSeems like we'll have ourselves another dragon to kill!
Onward Undergeared!
What you say, sir, is the old standard "give fish vs teach to fish" problem. And also it's a proof that help (also social help in RL) is making people lazy and stopping their own motivation for improvement.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I don't agree with you about helping others - I believe that helping people with potential and wanting to improve themselves give you straight economic advantage - one person that "owes you" and may be useful in the future.
I certainly understand that some folks are more competent in their class than others. Many players feel shame in asking questions. I'll often offer a helpful class website to someone that I see struggling. It is much easier when its a guildie because they know I'm just trying to be helpful.
ReplyDeleteSlacker pugs are the worst and in the daily random heroic I will often let them die on the last boss if they are geared and not doing damage or at some point act stupid and ask "BOB are you AFK"? hehe
I think folks should be at least addressed when they are totally out of sync with their gear to their damage. Sitting there and doing white damage is just being selfish to the others.
@Maladroite:
ReplyDelete"The perception is wrong then. It's not true that all of the members have cleared all the content multiple times and know the bosses inside out."
Doesn't matter. If most of the people involved are thoroughly familiar with the content (something I can reasonably infer from your statement) then that is vastly different than a group trying to do content for the first time. And therefore none of this so far is very convincing. Interesting, but not convincing.
As for beyond 4/12 ICC, well, that remains to be seen, doesn't it. I don't believe in giving credit to people for stuff they haven't done yet.
@ Anonymous: 'What makes you think that the M&S will actually believe you?'
ReplyDeleteThe fact that you can't read. He's not trying to get the M&S to belive anything. He's trying to get the socials to accept that the M&S are in fact M&S.
I have a different view of the bads. While I have no need for them in our guild runs, I don't really mind carrying them through other content. It's not because I'm nice, it's because I tend to run Randoms, or the weekly, or VOA at odd times when my guildies may not be available, or are already saved. I tank, and can carry a pretty terrible group (with 1 non-terrible healer) through most things. In the interest of getting the stuff I want to do done, carrying bads is a transaction that I am willing to make. Yeah, I could kick people, and get better ones, but that would just make the whole process take longer. Basically, someone has to be so bad that they can single handedly wipe the group in order for it to be a time advantage to replace them.
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, I am sure blizzard makes quite a bit of money off of these people, and I or my guildies probably make a fair bit of gold from them off the AH as well. So while they might be worthless in a real raid, they still have certain uses.
«If most of the people involved are thoroughly familiar with the content [..] then that is vastly different than a group trying to do content for the first time. And therefore none of this so far is very convincing.»
ReplyDeleteSo, will you be more convinced if we slay the new bosses in Ruby Sanctum close to their release? One, two or even three weeks after the release none of us will be "thoroughly familiar" with the encounter.
I could not agree more!
ReplyDeleteI recently leveled up a Rogue from 1-80 and started farming heroics the instant I dinged. I was completely in quest greens and a few blues I picked up along the way doing about 1.9k dps.
The very FIRST heroic I get in, the warrior tank (geared mostly in ilvl 200+ epics mind you) has 22k health, 410 defense and about 400 spirit. Some intellect was in the mix as well.
After our first wipe, I see the issue and try to educate him - as my main is a warrior tank. His response? "dude we aren't all so lucky to have gear like you lol i have a life"
Seconds later I was voted out of the group. The stupidity of the 1 M&S I understood... but they seem affect everyone around them like some kinda plague.
I was one of those who stated this and I still believe that in the minds of the socials this wont change much because of underlying conceptions about successful raiding.
ReplyDelete* Raiding once per week: nobody will believe that. The main reasoning will always be that your participants are already experienced raiders. And let's be frank: individually, each member has experienced the content more that at a 1 hour/week rate.
* New class: Every non-retard knows that playing a different class but with a similar role as your main is easy. Having a mage main and switching to a warlock is really not that much of a difference.
* Antisocial guild: in the case of this progression-oriented raiding, what keeps most socials from this type of raiding is asshatery. Being yelled at after a mistake, bossed around by the guild officers or being forced into investing more than they actually want in a game (strict schedule, preparations etc)
These are some of the preconceptions behind people staying in "freindly helpfull guild"
@Wilson
ReplyDelete"Doesn't matter. If most of the people involved are thoroughly familiar with the content (something I can reasonably infer from your statement) then that is vastly different than a group trying to do content for the first time. And therefore none of this so far is very convincing. Interesting, but not convincing."
I think you are attempting to be convinced of something that no one is trying to convince you of. "A group trying to do content for the first time" doesn't sound at all like what is at issue here. We're talking about people wiping on older content because they are attempting to carry M+S through it.
Groups working on content that is new for everyone are obviously doing things right already, and as such are not the target audience for this project.
Perhaps you are confused because you still think ICC is new content. ICC normal mode is very easy compared to past raids such as naxx60 and Sunwell, which would more usefully be compared to ICC heroic. People pug full ICC normal clears.
What I don't get is this......
ReplyDeleteGevlon is attempting to enlighten the socials who carry around the M&S because he believes that his world will be a better place (for him) if he does so. Whether this is true or not is debatable but isn't it equally valid for me as a social to carry around M&S because it makes me happy (ie makes my world a better place)? Either in the altruistic sense or in the "heh, I did 4x the dps of this guy" mode. Just because we've been "poisoned" by society doesn't mean that the utility we gain from being social is any less real then the happiness gevlon gets from doing ... whatever it is that makes him happy.
You all miss one important point: All the M&S are indeed expierienced! They may not know how to kill Arthas, BUT they wipe on the same boss OVER AND OVER again. After a few tries you should know how to beat that boss and then you try to learn the next boss. However, they still wipe on the same boss after 10+ tries and that has nothing to do with expierience!
ReplyDeleteYour point is amazing. But it is for the wrong game. Do you know why World of Warcraft is being updated and not thrown away? BECAUSE it caters to casuals. The players normally do not cater to casuals (I am in many groups with ninjas and 900 DPS, without fail they are kicked before the last boss), the GAME caters to casuals. ICC is the hardest instance in an easy game. This is why there are very few 'middle'. People are either raiding ICC or not raiding very often, because if you can raid you can raid ICC within a month. The difference is that some people know how to play, and thus get to ICC, while others QQ because they can't get to ICC because 'those nerds hate how I have a life'.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure why you think there is a connection between M&S in game and IRL. I know several people who are terrible at this game, who are lazy and don't care if they perform badly. They are also brilliant and hard working IRL. It's a game, they play to relax, to be lazy.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, I would define myself as a M&S IRL. I failed high school. I don't have a job. But I am good at this game.
People here seem to forget what the project is about:
ReplyDeleteThis project tries to prove that you don't need to be a hardcore no-lifer and farm gear 24/7 in order to do successful progression raiding.
The fact is people wipe (nothing new here guys, even Undergeared guild wipes a few times before downing some bosses). BUT the M&S and or misinformed people blame their wipes on "being undergeared"
This goes to ridiculous extremes when Tier 9 players say they are undergeared for Ulduar (which is Tier 8 content) or when pug leaders ask for "5k GS minimum" for said raids.
When people fails in WoW (and sometimes in real life too) they blame their failure on external factors (being undergeared, "bad luck", the teacher hates me, people are not friendly, etc..)
The truth is, they fail because they suck. Either by being morons or being slackers (or both).
@Okrane S.
ReplyDelete"The main reasoning will always be that your participants are already experienced raiders."
It helps, but not much. Having done Vezax as a rogue/warrior I have no idea what these clouds and multi colored goo on the floor are about. Because I never had mana on that fight before, and never had to care other than not standing in them.
There goes my Ulduar experience. Whoosh. ;) You know where it helped? On Flame Leviathan, because I'm a good demolisher driver and always did a ton of damage there.
"* New class: Every non-retard knows that playing a different class but with a similar role as your main is easy. Having a mage main and switching to a warlock is really not that much of a difference."
How about having a prot warrior (and previously rogue) main and switching to a resto shaman? Not much of a difference really.
Even my limited raiding on a resto druid (never considered him a main though) isn't that much of a help - it's a totally different class, and you play it in a totally different way (what do you mean all but one of my heals have cast times, and what are those shiny objects on the floor... oh and weapon enchantments, what where). It's a bit easier that way, but it's still a class I never played before above level 10 or so.
"* Antisocial guild: in the case of this progression-oriented raiding, what keeps most socials from this type of raiding is asshatery. Being yelled at after a mistake, bossed around by the guild officers or being forced into investing more than they actually want in a game (strict schedule, preparations etc)"
You don't need asshatery for your guild to be successful or progression oriented. I'd even say it's an example of bad leadership if you have to endure all this in a guild.
I didn't notice any of that here. Well, maybe except preparations. But if you're not prepared for a raid, you have NO place in it. At all.
Are you allowed to use epic leg enchant if you are not a tailor/leatherworker ?
ReplyDelete