Ganking update: WG is starting to get old, we need to spice up our game (no, we don't give up on WG, but it's kind of grind now). So to the guildmembers I hereby offer 500G reward for the "what to gank next week" contest. The one who comes up with the evilest idea will get the reward. Please don't comment ideas. If you have one, join!
I obviously won't start a rant about "GS is evil" like Professor Beej. I ask a simple question: "how can gearscore and achievements survive cheating?". I mean, it's extremely easy to create high gearscore without actually having useful gear. For example look at my shaman in the ganking project. I currently have 5500 GS, so I'm good to go with any PuGs. However if you take the time to check out the armory, you'll find medallion of the alliance, ilvl264 and worth exactly as much as an empty slot for PvE. If you also notice the 1200 resilience and 2200 stamina, you could easily figure out that they are all missing SP and haste from the item budget. A simple example:
Wrathful gladiator's wristguards of salvation (ilvl 264):
103 Stamina
46 Intellect
60 resilience rating
30 mana per 5 sec
106 spell power
Black chitin bracers (ilvl 245) + reckless ametrine:
58 Stamina
58 Intellect
60 haste rating
17 mana per 5 sec
97 spell power
Considering that RAWR believes 1 haste rating = 1.3 SP, the latter item is significantly better, despite it's much lower ilvl (therefore gearscore). The wrathful bracer costs 42K honor, can be gained practically AFK.
Achievements can be faked by many-many addons, underachiever being the most common.
The question is how can the "5.5K GS + achi or no inv" survive this? The raid organizers should be overflown with insanely high gearscores and fake achievements, rendering these completely useless.
The solution is very simple: anyone who has enough brain to fake an achievement and create false gearscore can easily do his job with 4K gearscore and no achievement. So the whole version of the "5.5K GS + achi or no inv" is: "prove that you are either overgeared and experienced or have brain to trick the system". And it works.
The victims of the system - as always - the honest, non-M&S socials. They are too "honorable" to fake an achievement and to get useless gear, and can't get gear and experience since no one invites them. Their problem is that without personally knowing them, they are indistinguishable from the M&S who doesn't fake because he doesn't know how and has no gear.
Moral of the story: the good guys always finish last!
PS my mage who cleared all pre-ICC content and a boss in ICC has 3269 GS.
I obviously won't start a rant about "GS is evil" like Professor Beej. I ask a simple question: "how can gearscore and achievements survive cheating?". I mean, it's extremely easy to create high gearscore without actually having useful gear. For example look at my shaman in the ganking project. I currently have 5500 GS, so I'm good to go with any PuGs. However if you take the time to check out the armory, you'll find medallion of the alliance, ilvl264 and worth exactly as much as an empty slot for PvE. If you also notice the 1200 resilience and 2200 stamina, you could easily figure out that they are all missing SP and haste from the item budget. A simple example:
Wrathful gladiator's wristguards of salvation (ilvl 264):
103 Stamina
46 Intellect
60 resilience rating
30 mana per 5 sec
106 spell power
Black chitin bracers (ilvl 245) + reckless ametrine:
58 Stamina
58 Intellect
60 haste rating
17 mana per 5 sec
97 spell power
Considering that RAWR believes 1 haste rating = 1.3 SP, the latter item is significantly better, despite it's much lower ilvl (therefore gearscore). The wrathful bracer costs 42K honor, can be gained practically AFK.
Achievements can be faked by many-many addons, underachiever being the most common.
The question is how can the "5.5K GS + achi or no inv" survive this? The raid organizers should be overflown with insanely high gearscores and fake achievements, rendering these completely useless.
The solution is very simple: anyone who has enough brain to fake an achievement and create false gearscore can easily do his job with 4K gearscore and no achievement. So the whole version of the "5.5K GS + achi or no inv" is: "prove that you are either overgeared and experienced or have brain to trick the system". And it works.
The victims of the system - as always - the honest, non-M&S socials. They are too "honorable" to fake an achievement and to get useless gear, and can't get gear and experience since no one invites them. Their problem is that without personally knowing them, they are indistinguishable from the M&S who doesn't fake because he doesn't know how and has no gear.
Moral of the story: the good guys always finish last!
PS my mage who cleared all pre-ICC content and a boss in ICC has 3269 GS.
The conclusion is not true.
ReplyDeleteThe alternatives to either is quite simply 'get a guild' or 'lead your own runs'.
Of course, both of them hurt social people the most. They think that their 'fun guild' is better despite not being able to do anything. And leading a PuG requires a very healthy dose of anti-socialness to be able to say: 'No. I don't want YOU in my group.' when choosing members.
It's simply a case of having your cake and eating it too. Basically, if you're a nice guy, the best thing you can do without compromising your personality is quite simply, joining a guild.
The purpose of PuGs is not progress. It's gear. This has been the case for two expansions and people figure this out NOW?
The fact that raiding has been opened to a segment that was traditionally shut out AND content with being shut out did not help things.
(Vanilla and BC: "I'm social, only no-lifers raid. I'm social, my guild is good for being social. We don't raid and we don't want to raid.")
(WOTLK: "I'm social, but literally EVERYONE raids. I need to keep up with the Joneses. My guild is not good enough to both raid AND be social.)
It's a consequence of Blizzard morphing the ideal raider from 'lol, no-lifer elitist prick' to 'lol, everyone raids'.
The other day a level 47 rogue managed to get into a 25-man pug I was in (don't really remember where to). All he did was "5.9k GS [achieve]" and got an insta-invite.
ReplyDeleteHe didn't even bother to fake the achievement, he just linked an uncompleted one. That's how dumb people asking for "GS + achi" can be.
When I myself am asking for puggies to complete my guild runs (yeah, not very big guild, sometimes have shortage), I usually believe the person, but double check on Armory if his gear is decent and all.
I have 0 tolerance for people lying to me, so those who linked fake achievements are usually called out on it. They usually just leave the raid (happened 3 times, iirc), but I'd be happy to keep them if they made a convincing argument showing they know what they're doing. The fact that they leave tells a lot about how they expect to perform.
I find the easiest method to avoid this shit - or to check on someone if necessary - is to use a tool like PugChecker. This is based on the person's armory - which afaik cannot be faked.
ReplyDeleteYet.
@ardoRic: the fact that they were able to get into your run and had the chance to show you that they could perform, (even though 3 times they ended up leaving), shows that faking the achievement is worth doing. Would you kgive them the chance to prove themselves if they didn't fake it?
ReplyDelete@Gevlon: Does this mean I just made 500g?
You only see the bad things. I recently started a DK on my server, a week after dinging 80 I had almsot 5000 gs. I didn't had any experience with ICC whatsoever. I did watched the tactics on Tankspot.com, prepared myself with flasks en got the right addons (DBM + AVR Encounters).
ReplyDeleteMy server is full with GS spamming like crazy.
A simple macro like these:
/2 Blood DK Tank LF Fun group ICC10 man. I have watched the tactics and got DBM + AVR.
Within 15 minutes I had a nice and fun group that would explain me everything without rushing. Now my DK has 5900 GS and I tried to join some GS + Achi raids. Out of the 4 I tried we wiped on trash.
Don't blame the addon, blame the people. It's a fact WoW is full of kids around the age of 12-16 and there's nothing you can do about it. Just care a lil less and you will be fine
thenoisyrogue: You offered your advice for free before I offered the prize. You were really nice to do so and will get exactly what every nice person get: a big "thank you"! :-)
ReplyDeleteOf course if you come up with another great idea for next week, you'll win the prize.
(this week's evil plan came from him)
The problem with gearscore is the way that people use it. Whenever forming a group I ask for "/wave eventide". When they do you can target and type /gs. The information panel that comes up is brilliant. It does a breakdown for each spec telling you how far under hitcap or defence cap they might be, if anything is ungemmed/enchanted, resilience, mp5 for non-heals or vice versa. Never just take the 5.7k gs at face value.
ReplyDeleteIf they are too lazy to go to even tide then they are probably to lazy to kill snobolds.
Achieves well, I do take them at face value. If unsure you can just ask them about a particular fight mechanic. But I never take anyone without the achieve unless I have a big bunch of people that I know can carry the newbie. That's what being guild is for.
The reason why people ask for GS and an archievment is not that they think other people cannot do it.
ReplyDeleteIt's just that it's harder to screw things up if you have 5k+ GS and know the fight for a bit. Even a moron can do 2-3k DPS with 5k+ GS. Even a special snowflake understands some of the tactics, and might therefore survive.
Even if you are a moron and you stand in the fire, that priest with 5k+ GS can heal you through, for quite a long time before you die.
So asking for GS + arch is simply increasing the chance that the raid will be a one-or two-shot.
After one or two wipes people are leaving anyway.
If you invite no archievment people with a low GS you will probably wipe at least once. Because people don't know tactics. Or don't know their class.(DK tank with 500 spellpower anyone?)
Or other stupid things.
With GS you know that every moron will do around 2k DPS, because you gotta be a real douchebag to not be able to do that. And there are other overgeared people present to carry the moron.
With an archievment you know for sure people saw the fight once.
There will be a few people present who actually understand what they are doing, therefore increasing the chance of an succesfull raid.
So, I think that's why GS + arch exists.
@ Noisyrogue
ReplyDeleteThe background check I do is usually before we run. And I don't kick immediately, I just call them out on it ("why did you link a fake achievement?", or something of the sort). I also don't kick straight away, they'll usually leave. To me, this means that they do not feel like they can make the run, and I'm fine without them. If they'd stay and make a good point and show they're not basement-dwelling-drooling-retards, I prolly won't kick them either.
Getting an invite from me is not the same as getting in the run. Being in the raid doesn't mean I'll keep you. My first invite is always conditional. If you only say your gearscore, you won't even get that. I never ask achievements or gearscore, but I will usually check the armory of interested people to see if they have stuff enchanted and gemmed (as propperly as I can make it out), and how far they ever got in the instance. If they have some experience I'll ask if they know bosses further in.
If you only get a conditional invite, the fake achievement didn't really do much for you.
I never expect much from puggies, and we've carried a few quite far (7+ in ICC) in a couple of alt runs when there are only 1-3 puggies. If the puggie ratio is higher than that, how far we go usually depends more on the puggies than on us.
@Anonymous
ReplyDeleteAchievement means very little. I knew of a mage who had the achievement for Emalon when he was the last VoA boss. All he did was Frostbolt the boss.
So he 'saw' the fight because he had the achievment? I call bullshit.
Further, I have seen 5k+ hunters doing less than 1k dps... with their pet. So there goes that one too.
I was on my level 74 ret paladin, hanging around in dalaran waiting for the dungeon finder to put me in a group. I notice someone advertizing an ICC10 pug: "LF 1 Tank ICC10 /w me Achie and 5600GS"
ReplyDeleteso I link the (of course) uncompleted achievement, by adding "5700GS, 45k health unbuffed paladin tank"
I instantly get an invite. I reckon I will be kicked immediately after but no, I stand around in the party, waiting for my summon, while nobody wonders why their "tank" has around 10k health.
Of course nobody went to summon. Raid-warns for ppl to go summon were thrown around. In the end I got bored and left, tired of the whole charade.
You're right, the good guys always finish last! It's quite sad really because I don't imagine Blizzard intended to create a game which required lying and cheated to succeed at. That's why CCP create EVE ;)
ReplyDeleteHonestly, I just don't understand why the iLevel stat is publicly available as it serves absolutely no purpose other than encouraging players to min/maxing their stats and judging others purely based on silly numbers.
Maybe I'm being naive but why is the iLvl value available?
I see so many people make the mistake of attacking GS itself instead of the way people misuse it. GS works very well at what it tries to do: give you a very rough indication of the gear. This is useful when fights do actually require a minimum standard (though in Wrath this minimum standard is quite low as you can see from Undergeared - fights have been dumbed down a lot).
ReplyDeleteAssume a GS of 5K is required for a piece of content for a second. Anyone failing to meet this basic goal I can throw out, and I don't have to waste time doing a more detailed inspection of their gear/talents. This is what GS works well for!
The problem is the retards who demand full T10 gear for the first Nax10 boss. The problem is the morons who don't check the gear of such players. The problem is the "LFM Nax10 must have a GS of 5600" when they themselves are in quest greens.
However the simple fact is GS does work to an extent as a filtering mechanism. Simply because better players will on average tend to be able to clear more content, getting more gear, and thus getting a higher GS. Above a certain point it does also function as an extremely rough indicator of skill. Not a good indicator, or a great indicator, but a rough indicator.
When I do random dungeons, I get put in high GS groups due to my gear level. You do get bad players who have excellent gear, but on average I've noticed that the players tend to be far more skilled; you don't usually see people with bad talent choices, spellpower DKs DPSing in frost presence or whatever. I probably end up in skilled groups about 80% of the time; disproportionate to the small % of good players. Above a certain level there is a correlation between GS and skill.
The problem with gearscore and achievements is that they are in no way related to skill. Every idiot can get carried through content, even the one who lies facedown on 99% of the encounters and get his achievements. GS is shit because gear is not so relevant as skill, proven by the Undergeared project. I never ask for achievements or GS in my pugs, never, and I do PuG a lot. The simplest way to weed out complete morons "LFM XX, whisper me with stats", that's all you need. 90% of the time people will whisper with achievements, gearscore, whatever, but those 90% never whisper stats, well tell me, is someone who can't follow a simple request and provide me with what I am asking for, in this case stats, worth my time? No, if he can't read properly and do as he is told then there's a high chance he's one of them fire standing morons who believe GS will make them move out of things that'll kill them. GS and Achievements are retarded way to form a group.
ReplyDeleteI'm not defending GS because I use it. (I use ElitistGroup)
ReplyDeleteI defend it because of the message and point it conveys.
Namely: "I am the raidleader, and whatever requests I make of the raid are mine to set as I see fit. It does not matter whether I ask for 6000 GS, [Over 9000] achievement, or only invite green-haired Nigh Elf and Blue-Haired Draenei Females. It's MY raid, MY rules."
I'm opposed to the whole entitled-casual attitude of 'wah, every raidleader should invite me just becaus! Blizz, ban GS PLEEEEAZZZZ. I DESERVE TO BE IN THEIR RAID WHINEWHINE.'
No, punks. I am the raidleader, and I impose MY standards on the raid. I lead how I want, when I want, accepting whomever I want. My raid's success or failure should depend on that alone. I do NOT want a Blizzard nanny-state barging in and saying 'You have to group with this guy.'
Short story. GS is a mediocre tool, used badly. I don't use it.
Do I want it banned? NO! I'm a raid leader. The responsability of my raid falls on me and me alone, and I won't accept any kind of meddling by Blizzard by hand-holding terrible players. There's enough of that in LFD.
@ Narx.
ReplyDeleteGood for you. I saw priests with under 3k gearscore doing 300(yes, three-hundred!!!!) DpS in Old Kingdom heroic. Yes, they were shadow. Yes, they came under the wrath-spamming resto-druid.
There is no link between skill and Gearscore. Gearscore measures potential, nothing else. When inviting a PuG member, with no a priori experience of them, the only thing you have to go by is potential.
If you were to assemble a soccer team out of a mass of soccer players, and the only indication of their worth was how much clubs paid for them in the past, you'd want the 11 most expensive ones so long as they follow a simple team (raid) synergy.
Sure, there is a chance that you'd pass the 10k wonderkid and choose the 10 million ex-superstar who's high on coke and alcohol and who is currently tripping on his untied laces, who just got kicked out of his team. However, if you NEVER saw them play and you had to make up the team within, say, 1 hour, would you say that their worth was a fair assessment?
Well, THAT is what GS does.
p.s. - I must add that the responsability does not always fall on the leader. In fact, now that i think about it, the leader has his share of responsability but the sucess is deppendent of the raid as a whole. It's raid leader's resposability to enforce and solve problems but it's the raid's responsability to execute and carry the orders.
ReplyDeleteGah. I didn't post the last post, fake 'Andru'. Quit masquerading as me. You have something to say, say it, without posing as though it's me who says that.
ReplyDeleteThere's no 'post scriptum', or p.s. since you didn't write the preceeding two wall of texts in the first place.
Troll.
Regardless, I do not agree. The responsability falls solely on the raid leader. Everyone else is there for their mutual self-interest. The 'omg but raid has alos resonsability' is such a cheap cop-out from any raidleader.
We don't ask for GS or achive. We just armory them and see what we see. A quick scan over their gear will tell you quite a lot. Still, for certain rolls GS is a few reliable and instant way of checking things. I have never seen 4500 gs tank or healer that is going to get very far in ICC. Part of that is because they don't have the HP or SP, but a big part of it tells you how well they can think. If They are wearing blue pants then they did not even bother to grind out the triumph of ICC 5 man ones before looking for a raid. No thanks. Even if in theory their gear COULD do the content. That level of laziness, lack of understanding of how to get what you need, disregared for other raid members, and general stuidity at thinking they would not get booted for it... all of that is more than enough reason to not bring them.
ReplyDelete@Narx
ReplyDeleteYes, once in a time you get a "frostbolt mage" with no clues. The average player however will probably have done some DPS in the fight. It's not like 20% of the raiders are boosting the other 80%.
So if you only invite players with the archievment, there is a bigger chance that players know what they are doing.
Also, I never claimed it was impossible to do low DPS with a high GS. I claimed it was harder. If you're having pretty good gear it doesn't matter that you're still in your leveling spec. You still will do enough damage.
If you're just braindead enough to let your pet attack, you deserve to get a "moron"-mark on the front of your head. Can't say anything else.
If you can get that to work good for you. I know people that have tried buffing their gs with pvp gear as well as a fake achieve, unfortunately I actually take the time to inspect people while everyone is getting there, so it doesn't fly in my raids. I always catch them and they get blackballed for it.
ReplyDeleteWhile it would be easy to accept anyone regardless of gearscore, 9/10 players arent gelvon and even in gear 2 tiers above the players of under geared cant perform to his level. Trust me i dont like being the asshole that says you need a 5k gs (though honestly since you can get 5k by pure heroics i accept nothing less) and at least know the first 4 to get in (though ive been lax on requiring the achieve anymore) bit i also dont like testing out 5-10 players on the trash to learn they are shit.
Have i seen 5700gs dps/healers do less than a fresh 80? yes. Does that sadden me oh god yeah. And have i seen 3k gs people pull 3-5k? yes (especially hunters). But since their skill is beyond my control i feel its safer to go with the probability that the geared person knew their shit and got gear for it.
Clearly, the fake Andru has never lead people during his life or he would know how silly his remarks sound. Even if we're talking about a game, and not, let's say, a team of coworkers or an infantry platoon, there a lot of variables out of the control of the raid leader. He's a coordinator, a manager and a police man. That does not take any responsibility from the other players - if that was the case every wipe would be raid leader's fault. The reasons why the other players are there are their own and do not influence the result. If they're there for selfish reasons or not it's irrelevant.
ReplyDeleteExamples:
Tank gas a DC and raid wipes. Fault? Raid leader, of course.
Caster was distracted and does not move away from the fire. Responsibility? Raid leader.
Healer does not heal the right target. Fault? Raid leader's.
Raid successfully kills the boss. All glory goes to raid leader. Evidently. The raid had nothing to do with it.
What is the saying? "A rising tide lifts all of the boats." Making gear and raids more accessible means that both good players and terrible players have access to them. Good players who find the right situation will enjoy WOW a lot more. Players who are terrible, or who play well but don't find a good home, will be frustrated.
ReplyDeleteThis is not a problem with the gear score addon. It's a problem due to stupid players. If you remove the gear score addon, you'll still have to deal with the idiots who rely on it because they're lazy and too stupid. That may not be an improvement.
A comment I made once on another blog:
ReplyDeleteHave you ever thought that your Gear and Achievements represent for a raid-leader exactly what your CV represents for a potential employer?
They all serve the same role. They might not be a perfect representation of what you can do, there are false positives and true negatives but at the end of the day, its what works best…
You are also forgetting that those of us who have been burned by terribad pugs in the past don't use "Gearscore" (the addon). I use Elitist Group... and when I do an inspect it will instantly alert me that you are wearing PvP gear.
ReplyDeleteGranted... I am not one of the people that you are refering to, but there is an easy way to keep people from "cheating". EG will also tell me how much experience you have inside an instance... so if you have a 5500 GS from mixing badge gear with PvP gear, and have NEVER been inside ICC, Elitist Group will say so.
Stop posting that GS + achiev exists because you can tell that the player is any good from it, you're missing the point.
ReplyDeleteThe point is that you can have an artificially high GS and have horrible gear for what you're supposed to be doing. In many cases the bis for classes/specs is not the highest ilevel and therefore the player's GS suffers.
People shouldn't feel pressured to take high ilevel items to boost a made up stat when it makes their performance worse. If you need to equip a PVP trinket to push you over 5K, when the PVE trinket is bis, something is wrong with the system.
GS does what it was written to do very well. The people who complain about it for any reason do not understand what it is intended to do since they are obviously not using it for its intended purpose.
ReplyDelete@Andru: [quote] I defend it because of the message and point it conveys.
Namely: "I am the raidleader, and whatever requests I make of the raid are mine to set as I see fit. [/quote]
Ok, I'll buy that. HOWEVER keep in mind that as an unknown player joining a(your) pug that *I* have some expectations as well. I don't know you from spit as a player (same as you to me). How do I know you're not just getting a pug together to do some achieve run or to ninja that one trinket? How do *I* know that YOU know wtf you're doing??
I expect YOU to play your role in the pug at least as well as I would. I have dropped group when I see the tank at 20k HP wearing low GS gear after inspection. It's not worth it to me. And even though they don't know it, that pug just lost a boomy (just under 6k GS) who will probably easily top the meters and knows every fight very well.
So yes, you have expectations and ultimate control to set any rules as the group/raid leader but I also have expectations and my control consists of dropping group if I so choose.
The question should be how achievements can be required at all. If the achievement is required to get an invite to the raid and the invite is required to get the achievement, it's a catch 22 for anybody not willing/able to cheat. The answer of course is that not all PUGs are strict about the requirement and not all raiders PUG.
ReplyDeleteThe "good guys" caught in this catch 22 join raiding guilds which don't have such a simple litmus test for a player's raid potential but allow players to prove and improve their worth.
It just goes to show what a narrow perspective M&S have. They sit around in Dalaran looking at the Jonses with their achievement mounts and high gearscores and get jealous. They want to get in on raiding so they can be up to par. But they only see the raids being advertised in trade. They forget that there are private raids made up of friends or groups of competent players that have gotten to know one another. And then there's the slightly more obvious (but still hidden to M&S) guilds that clear content. PuGs are aimed at members of private/guild runs that may have missed a raid, were displaced by someone else or alts.
ReplyDeleteAdditionally I'd like to add if you're a fully competent person you don't always need to trick the system. If I'm on an alt or lack the achievements, ect. simply convincing the raid leader in a coherent and grammatically correct way often works. I'm assuming if you're trying to get into a raid you've done you're research by knowing your class/role and the encounters. If this is the case offer to lead the raid in ventrillo. Whatever it takes to convince the raid leader that despite your lack of gearscore/achievements that you know your stuff and can perform.
GS + achieve exists because it works. It's a simple as that. Suppose I have 2 different people, one with 6k GS and the other with 5k GS. Who am I going to pick?
ReplyDeleteAnd what people are forgetting is the positive correlation between skill and gear + achieve. If someone has better gear + achieve, chances are that person has higher skill.
And I laugh at the people who believe they are special snowflakes and are entitled to raid because they think that they are somehow skilled and special, so others need to conform to them.
Well what about the non-M&S socials getting into a new-ish guild, proving that they know their class, and eventually getting into ICC? If they can't wait that long then I would revise my opinion of them being non-M&S
ReplyDelete[quote]And what people are forgetting is the positive correlation between skill and gear + achieve. If someone has better gear + achieve, chances are that person has higher skill[/quote]
ReplyDeleteno no gear + achiv does not mean skill or relative skill. It means they have sum gear and have been in a raid once.
I will use my wife as an example...
she played/plays very occ a hunter and would get invited to raids along with me (resto druid) she only got invs because i could heal well, her dps was awful. yet she got gear and achivs to the end her GS ended being one of the highest in raid yet lowest dps (and don't get me started about the standing in the fire!)
and this example i have seen play out in others
arkraven EU-kul tiras
I've found it to be a decent way to measure raid leaders competence by refusing to inform him of your gearscore. There are other ways to back up claim of competence. An intelligent player understands if I can show Ulduar hardmode achievements from the time less than 50 guilds had completed them from my main character, it is a competent player he is dealing with and it is very reasonable to assume that no matter what class, he can expect very close to optimal performance from me.
ReplyDeleteI also refuse to tell my gearscore (well, I don't know it accurately anyway), stating that it is "sufficent". If they really want to know about my gear item levels, I'll give an approximation of average ilvl. If raid leader cannot tell that average ilvl 250 is some 5400 gearscore or whatever it is, he has no idea about what he is even asking.
I can tell stories about how several ToGC25 PuGs I joined (just to see how miserably they fail) wiped at Gormok, despite some crazy 5700gs requirement and how I formed ICC25-PuG (I really can't handle my sleep rhythm so I missed the raid that week) on second week after ICCs release with only requirement being "only join if you REALLY think you can carry your weight", oneshotting Deathbringer Saurfang. Many PuGs can't handle him now even with 15% buff.
The thing is, gearscore doesn't really tell much. The difference between skill of extremely good and AVERAGE player can easily count for as much as 30 itemlevels. I believe an intelligent player is capable of playing any class well. I'd much rather take Ulduar-geared alt of a player with Sartharion+3d before zerg tactic (which required good situational awareness and capability to play your character well) than some random ICC25-geared player.
It is too bad most players don't even try to offer or ask proof of their competence and go with largely irrelevant number.
Made an ICC10 the other day, tried the whole GS thing (never asked for gs before). Didn't ask for anything but gs+achieve and chose the highest gs people for every role. Group ended up ranging from 6.6k gs down to 5.9k. Full clear, minimal vent use for tacs, did several hardmodes, think we wiped 3 times - 2 of those on lk.
ReplyDeleteI was really impressed with the results.
Becuse you can grind out tier gear with heroics, GS is for the M&S who prefer players who do less dps with high GS, over players who do greater dps with low GS.
ReplyDeleteYou might as well quailfy players by their favourite colour.
You can put gear on a bad, they'll still be a bad.
ReplyDeleteI'd rather take an alt of a good player in blues who knows the fights than a 5400gs player who dies in the stupid.
I don't always even gearcheck people in the pug raids I run. If I do, I don't look at gearscore or achievements, especially if they are an alt, and wouldn't blink at someone who has a few blues. Hell, my Mage hit ICC10 with an ilevel176 or so cloak.
If I gearcheck, I'm looking for gems, enchants, and to a lesser extent glyphs and specs.
Someone without gems / enchants = someone who doesn't respect the time of others enough to care. Now that's not worth an invite.
I ask: Are you willing to get on vent? Can you follow directions and stay out of the stupid?
You hear the same sort of drivel when jobs require you to have a college degree and require you to show up for the job interview in a suit and tie. Can people without degrees and ties perform well? sure, are they free to run their own firm if they want, and perhaps be extremely successful? sure. Will you getting a degree and a tie be more productive than whining? absolutely.
ReplyDeleteI agree with disliking dishonesty, but I suspect that being able to fake a GS is probably about as good a predictor of future success as having a good GS. It shows you can download addons, keep up with both addons and events in WoW, and are motivated to get new pixels for your characters.
People do not understand triage and time.
If you are getting a group up to be a server first for Cataclysm, then you want to be very careful about who you select and spend dozens of hours on interviews both for skill but also personality. But it makes no sense to spend 3 hours interviewing people to increase your chance of completing s TOC pug by 20% or to save two wipes. GS is used not because it is 100% effective, but because it is so quick.
And clearly a bad player with GS 5000 will outperform that same player with GS 3000.
@ Kaaterina
ReplyDeleteApart the fact that you stole my character name (which I'm going to let slide, though I have my suspicions you're sockpupeteering, 'fake' Andru and you being one and the same), I also do not buy into your whole sarcasm thing. You have no idea wtf you're talking about.
'The raid' has NO responsability. Individuals have. Raid leader is a person, the fire mage you gave as an example is a person, the tank you gave as an example is a person, the healer is a person.
So, yes, the raid leader who hides behind 'raid didn't listen to me' is a bad leader. There is no 'raid', there are INDIVIDUALS. Blaming the raid as a whole is not only counter-productive, it's also worth a gnat's spit in the eye.
There are psychological studies about this. Adressing a request to a mass of people dilutes its strength proportional to the number in that mass.
Saying 'OMG YOU NOOBS SHAPE UP AND DON'T FAIL AGAIN' has about.... ZERO influence. Saying. 'Hey, , move out of the fire or you will get a kick and no loot.'
Not only blaming the whole raid is unfair to those who didn't do anything wrong, responsability must not get diluted. And yes, who has to call these shots? Who has to see who's the baddie that underperforms, why yes, the raid leader.
There is no mythical 'raid' superstructure that shares responsability and tasks. No. Every single person is responsible for what they're doing. And it's the raid leader's responsability to see that everyone does their task. At most, there are raid officers (like healing and tanking officers), players who you trust who you can delegate some responsability in overseeing those sections of the raid. But the responsability does not belong to the 'raid'.
So please, leave your sarcasm at the door. It would also help if you knew what you're talking about before trying to start an upmanship contest with me.
The what to gank contest seems like, to use the idiom, "reinventing the wheel." Goons on the Something Awful forums have been griefing games for a long time. Why not just reuse one of their ideas?
ReplyDeleteGreat post - its been a while since I read a post which I actually nodded my head along too.
ReplyDeleteI have stopped playing WoW for a good 5 months now and the reason was after Server transfer after transfer, I could not get into any raid even though I had the best from HCs and some low level 10 mans.
I considered myself a non M&S social, I dont have time to be in a guild or run one myself, my family takes up too much of my time as well as endless amounts of work.
You can no longer PUG as an honest player which is a shame, it was really the only way you got to meet new people/players and forge friendships.
Instead it forced the culture of being a raid/guild slave which since the beginning of the game and leading so many guilds over years of WoW from Molten Core onwards I no longer have the time or patience to do.
Keep up the good posts!
Well the way you describe show that unfortunately you don't know how to use it correctly.
ReplyDeleteGS / Achiv is the 1st step and not the ONLY STEP to make your group.
Once the guy send you his GS / achiv you meet him and inspect him ... you'll know quickly if he does have the achievement (compare achievement option) and see if the gear is good (normal inspection).
GS / Achiv is fine ... the problem is not the addon its how ppl use it ... gun don't kill ppl ... ppl kill ppl .. GS don't kill the game .. idiot kill the game.
The request of Gearscore/achievment at the end is an obstacle made by the players to other players
ReplyDeleteand ruin the whole game experience to new players.
One solution that would allow new players get into the endgame without rolling a guild is to create random 10 icc random 25 icc with greater rewards.
example made a random icc 10 with heroic rewards instead.
This will made the game more intressting and difficult. its easier to kill a boss with all people with gear around 5.8 at least its what the users of gearscore suggest or they will not use it.
Blizzaard already put some gear request for some instances, that could be done to the random icc raids also. How about killing icc bosses with random people. That will bring some use of the raid looking application that none uses.