tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post8645695453645017819..comments2024-02-27T14:44:07.868+01:00Comments on Greedy goblin: The fundamental flaw of leveling economyGevlonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-874760678345343802010-04-23T18:49:49.393+02:002010-04-23T18:49:49.393+02:00Interesting. I recently leveled a pally from 1 ...Interesting. I recently leveled a pally from 1 to 80 on a server that I didn't have other toons on. I _did_ server transfer a toon with BOA gear (just the 2 that give XP bonus: chest & shoulders) and cash for duel spec. A friend on the server gave me bags and 20gold.<br /><br />I set the gold and the duel spec cash aside (held it in my new auction toon). I _also_ kept the auction toon's "earnings" on the auction toon.<br /><br />My leveling pally payed for his own training, and his own ground mount, and flying mount out of quest rewards (the only cash he got to keep, as any mats he happened across while leveling went off to the auction toon and the gold never came back).<br /><br />I did NOT have him pay for cold weather flying (my server transfer guy carried a cold weather flying tome), and he hasn't made enough for fast flight.<br /><br />I did NOT take a crafting profession (two gathering professions).<br /><br />I did not buy gear while leveling. Even if I didn't have the 2 BOA items I would have stuck to that. I vendered plenty of decent chest/shoulders. I only put cheap gems in sockets (like the 2G outland vender gems).<br /><br />The cold weather flying thing makes the results of my experiment somewhat suspect past level 70 or so. The "gift bags" makes the rest of the experiment a little suspect as well, but I think that part largely holds up -- if I didn't have the bigger bags I could still have sold as much stuff to venders, it just would have taken longer to run around collecting. Plus I effectively got zero income from the gathering professions, so you can discount the bag space taken by skins and herbs.<br /><br />So I would argue that you can level (at least to 70) on a bare server without being cash starved. In fact except for bags there is relatively little to be gained from "outside cash" for the first 70 levels.Stripeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03385396928649617719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-22390230660961510392010-04-09T00:19:41.859+02:002010-04-09T00:19:41.859+02:00I disagree with this post. Anyone starting on a fr...I disagree with this post. Anyone starting on a fresh server will undoubtedly find that AH prices will yield less gold than older, wealthier servers but they should still be able to make cash decently enough. I rolled a BE rogue when TBC first came out (on one of the new RP-PVP servers) and I was approaching 500g by the time I hit 40. In older servers it's even easier to make money as low level goods are not always available but are always desired because high end players are rich AND it's easier to spend money to level up a new profession. Copper goes for 4-5g a stack on my older server, 10g for ores. Iron goes for 20g a stack, individual silver ores are 5g each. This is simply one profession, others are priced pretty similarly.FifthElephanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13817788016863550039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-5035121657073219182010-04-06T15:06:16.366+02:002010-04-06T15:06:16.366+02:00I have always thought that top level items should ...I have always thought that top level items should still use low level mats as well as top level materials to craft.<br />for example a level 80 item would still use copper as well as titansteel.<br />This would help to to keep low level items worth farming plus give them more value.<br /><br />I also like the idea of things like the belt buckle, crafted by lowbies however needed for every pair of trousers made in the game it kind of makes sense to me.<br /><br />Is this a bad idea?Bradius123https://www.blogger.com/profile/09785529845770189971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-37943385431653903292010-04-05T10:31:49.340+02:002010-04-05T10:31:49.340+02:00Outland was originally designed to be done by foot...Outland was originally designed to be done by foot. You didn't get flying till 70. I didn't get my first epic mount until 62. Generally while leveling it's been live on quest rewards, and I've been able to make the milestones necessary to do reasonably. <br /><br />It is easier with a main but it is entirely possible to level with a dead economy, you just can't expect to hit gold cap at 35. You're underestimating rewards from quests.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-74975599235660771272010-04-01T15:23:14.254+02:002010-04-01T15:23:14.254+02:00i'm not sure all of this is based upon a valid...i'm not sure all of this is based upon a valid assumtion.<br />it is a hypothetical server with immature ecconomy and full of lowbies. on this server there is a newbie who cant make enough money to pay his bills.<br /><br />1 - when was last time Blizzard created a new server? if anything we are headed towards server mergers.<br /><br />2 - if a new server was created how long would the first 80 take to hit level cap? record is about 26 hours. right? from then on the inflation starts.<br /><br />3 - unbalanced servers are the closest approximation to the hypothetical server. if there were no neutral AH then there might indeed be an issue. but there is in fact an neutral AH so the point is moot.Antinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-46870077077724589992010-04-01T07:16:04.115+02:002010-04-01T07:16:04.115+02:00I have been guiding a non-gamer through WoW and on...I have been guiding a non-gamer through WoW and one of the things we noticed is that nothing leads you to the AH, in effect you either discover it by chance or learn about it from other players. This doesn't sit very well with those that don't see why they should have to teach other players.<br />If Blizzard want more people to get beyond the trial period stage then the game should teach you the basics as you level up.<br />The in-game help isn't very good, it seems to tell you things after you have already done them.Greygamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10911009318907407659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-12600953298435452982010-04-01T03:15:11.631+02:002010-04-01T03:15:11.631+02:00I whole heartedly disagree, i know when i first st...I whole heartedly disagree, i know when i first started my account, i had 900g by time i hit 30, he was rolling on 4 frost weave bags and was more or less free of heavy expenses by time he hit outland he had ~2kg that he used to twink at 59 for shits and grins as my little brother tried to catch up.<br />I certainly didnt know how to play, and im not much of an economist. That said without the AH its impossible.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07501396282780529242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-1708277101124208062010-03-31T23:39:12.683+02:002010-03-31T23:39:12.683+02:00I thought it was awesome to create a lively econom...I thought it was awesome to create a lively economy was the DK idea. It had to be an alt that entered the world at a higher level. <br />Rich mains buying tons of low mats to grind the new professions: everyone benefited. <br /><br />I'm not sure they had an AH in vanilla wow; it was all trade chat I think. Either way, there are no real quests that introduce you to the AH as you are leveling. As a noob, that AH is a scary place. <br /><br />That being said: in TBC, at my new level 40, I read some articles on how to make gold in WoW. Terrible vanilla advice: grind mats. But, that's what I did and I had the the gold I needed for mounts etc. <br /><br />Today, just by playing the game; gold is there: easily at hand.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-27543629187788733372010-03-31T21:28:44.576+02:002010-03-31T21:28:44.576+02:00Gevlon, you are forgetting that they have drastica...Gevlon, you are forgetting that they have drastically sped up leveling. You used to have to play more for each level, looting more corpses and completing more quests. The game was balanced fine at that time, you could easily afford everything you needed even without using the AH.Samushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02310391280860277082noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-61562614430401690072010-03-31T20:37:55.407+02:002010-03-31T20:37:55.407+02:00Advising people on a low population server to go g...Advising people on a low population server to go gatherer, gatherer is poor advice and doomed to failure due to lack of demand as a market isn't growing rapidly enough, at 80 demand will then far oustrip supply creating further problems. <br /><br />Even when a small minority has the knowledge to turn this to their advantage through cross faction trading it doesn't help gold distribution for the rest. NPCs take the vast majority of gold.<br /><br />For a leveling guild crafting is not just a wise investment it is a no brainer. Hoping to power level in the future is putting all the eggs in one basket and again the auction savvy will be there to reap the rewards while overall most suffer.<br /><br />With any server the economy needs to grow. Without crafting most of the supply/demand required is gone. It's only when more and more hit level 80 and don't have immediate access to gems, enchants and gear does the problem get worse and the auction houses takes a lot of profit through overinflated sales.<br /><br />A solution for this guild would be assigning craft leaders to skill up. This begins the increase in demand for leveling mats, on any server with a low population it will only increase, it doesn't address gold levels though. <br /><br />Even encouraging secondary skills, every guild should have a chef, nurse and smelly old sea dog will be of benefit, but gold is still an issue. <br /><br />Cross faction auctions is what should be encouraged most, whilst the goblin cut is steep selling high value items is the best way to gain gold for the alliance economy.<br /><br />At some point in time crafting will be required to level the playing field, those with crafts will invariably make a killing but from their own side with the goblins being the only winners. <br /><br />Crafting also helps the economy balance, providing useful items and soaking up the materials. By keeping items relative in value and not 'wowhead' prices then the economy will begin to thrive and prosper.<br /><br />Probably time to suck it up and apply some altruism, I hear engineering's profitable!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-9165541038674508002010-03-31T20:13:00.433+02:002010-03-31T20:13:00.433+02:001.
The way I see it "The self-sufficient newb...1.<br />The way I see it "The self-sufficient newbie" is already working just about right. I have recently leveled two characters, and gold was never a problem to me. Without sending a copper from my main I could easily afford all my spells, and my mounts at the level they became available. Only exception was my normal flyer, had to sponsor that a bit. However, the content is tuned around flying mounts not being available before level 70, so a walking player in Hellfire is in my opinion not a very good argument against "The self-sufficient newbie".<br /><br />2.<br />As a side note we may all agree that i have the experience the newbie lacks, but I level my characters the noob way; no professions, no planning, no AH. I just pick up all the yellow exclamation signs I see, and grind the mobs I get told to grind.<br /><br />3.<br />The only thing that separates me from the broke noob is the fact that I only buy things that I need. I buy my spells, and I buy my mounts. I do not buy any greens I will switch for my next quest reward, or any random stuff like vanity pets or whatever. <br /><br />4.<br />If I may say so, I have invaluable inside information on the life of always broke players, seeing as many of my RL friends are such sad beings. Their biggest problem seems to be that they always have their bags filled to the brim with rubbish. If they could only learn to sell trash when they see a vendor, instead of deleting it when they need space for quest items, I honestly believe their economy would rarely be in trouble ever again.tobbelobbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-74345583382479167852010-03-31T19:40:53.578+02:002010-03-31T19:40:53.578+02:00@anonymous #6 your information is flawed as well. ...@anonymous #6 your information is flawed as well. I got cold weather flying @lvl 68 in Northrend. Your main can now buy a book to learn the skill and send it to your alt.<br /><br />Doesn't it sound like Gevlon is talking about welfare here? He's noticed that having nothing (or very little) in a land where most have lots can make the struggle for your own lots a little tougher?<br /><br />I leveled my main on a medium full server with apparently just enough lowbies that I was able to sell every piece of leatherworking and green on the AH (until Outland where greens are worthless). I was able to purchase all skills and riding at the appropriate times. Took maybe a month to get the money for flying at 70.<br /><br />But it took SEVEN MONTHS.<br /><br />Leveling an alt quickly takes resources, period. Doing it yourself takes time. More time if there is no market for your goods.<br /><br />That could be fixed by tying the price of fixed goods, training, etc. to the population of toons at that level currently. Lowering the price of basic needs might save an alt a hundred gold pieces over the course of leveling, but could save a new lowbie a lot of time grinding for cash. They could also increase the vendor value of low level crafting supplies.<br /><br />I would never level an alt on a new server for that reason.Bristalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-8662162776974819312010-03-31T19:10:41.367+02:002010-03-31T19:10:41.367+02:00@Anti-
Quite right. Other quest items which you n...@Anti-<br /><br />Quite right. Other quest items which you need to get from other players include Deadly Blunderbuss and Gyrochronotom. Think there's one for bronze tubing or some such in Darkshire as well. So saying that newbie's aren't directed to the AH is absurd.<br /><br />@Gevlon-<br /><br />I fail to see how people in Hellfire Peninsula without flying mounts is a crisis of such monumental proportions as to require drastic action by Blizzard. After all, my first three times there not only did I not have a flying mount, I didn't even have the epic ground mount until I was halfway to Zangarmarsh. And neither did the folks on PvP servers. Yes, it would be convenient if everyone was able to fly at 60, but I thought the whole point of this was to prove that inconveniences can be overcome.<br /><br />Your only "evidence" that you can't make 300g through questing is that you've seen people on the ground. Since I've seen people who didn't play the AH or have sugar daddies get their flight training at 60, I'm very dubious. My guess is, your guildies spent more than they earned at the AH. Which places it under of the heading "their own fault."Wilsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-48602655473560013132010-03-31T18:56:01.555+02:002010-03-31T18:56:01.555+02:00@Michael: "An economy that is based on lvl 80...@Michael: "An economy that is based on lvl 80s producing massive gold surplus' via dailies and high lvl mob vendor trash is flawed." How else do you propose currency should be introduced into the system? Would you prefer a closed system where every character can earn a capped amount of gold from nonrepeatable quests? A game such as that would <i>require</i> leveling alts just to create currency, harvesting the currency, then deleting and beginning anew. I cannot believe you are suggesting such a system, because it is still yields the same result as having level 80s doing dailies, it would simply involve a greater time sink.<br /><br />Responding to the original post: A completely empty server would not be a disaster. Because demand for greens and vanity items would be low, price would also be low. People who prefer these goods would purchase them at the lower price, while others would focus on skill development. It does not make sense to compare a player with connections to one without in the "empty server" context.<br />I cannot understand how having Blizzard suggest to players how to make money will make leveling any easier. If every new player on a server is a dual-gatherer, then prices of raw materials will plummet. New players could still be unable to purchase new skills as they become available.<br />I like to think of purchasing skills as kin to paying a licensing fee or luxury tax. The way to remedy a person's inability to pay a flat fee is either: 1) reduce the amount of the fee, 2) increase income. Blizzard already controls a significant portion of a new player's income. Rather than have Blizz augment that income, do we really want the company involving itself anymore in the tradining market?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-21618533703976002072010-03-31T18:44:26.891+02:002010-03-31T18:44:26.891+02:00Anti said...
there are already several quests...Anti said...<br /><br /> there are already several quests that send you to the AH. or at the very least send you to seek other player crafters to trade directly.<br /><br />Right, go to the AH for BUYING. I hated those quests, b/c the AH was so expensive, to newbie eyes. It seemed like just a big tax.<br /><br />What's needed is a way to get newbies to the AH for SELLING. The loading screen occasionally gives some advice on this, but there's little stuff in-game.<br /><br />It'd be simple to do a quest chain that walks somebody through the basics of auctioning white goods. Carry some wool from Razor Hill to the AH for some injured merchant, and bring him back the gold. (A lot of people would probably just take the gold, but they'd still get the idea). I must've vendored hundreds or thousands of GP worth of cloth before I figured out there was an actual market for this stuff.Marknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-30313139961696361722010-03-31T18:43:10.987+02:002010-03-31T18:43:10.987+02:00you are making the flawed assumption that Blizzard...you are making the flawed assumption that Blizzard wants new players to have flying in outland. Flying used to start at level 70. Blizzard changed it mainly to encourage veterans to keep rolling alts (thus avoiding boredom and continuing to pay their monthly fee). <br /><br />If new players aren't able to afford it then Blizzard is probably perfectly happy with that. There is no flying until level 77 in Northrend for a new player either. They have made it clear that they want new players to see the content the way it was intended: from the ground.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-88979963046050682542010-03-31T18:35:30.820+02:002010-03-31T18:35:30.820+02:00I can see where an empty server would be a problem...I can see where an empty server would be a problem. Obviously a new toon on a populated faction has no problems making gold with a gathering profession.<br /><br />What could change is items posted on the neutral AH show on both alliance and horde main AH, still with the higher cut. The other thing players would need is lower-level access to the neutral AH. Put one in Ratchet, and make an alliance-side goblin city. (WoW needs more goblins anyway.) <br /><br />Then lowbies could list their gathered mats and make server imbalances a little easier on leveling players.<br /><br />And yes, there should be an AH quest. They show you the boats and flight points, why not the AH?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-53139179692223934262010-03-31T18:33:20.408+02:002010-03-31T18:33:20.408+02:00I am playing since the servers opened in Europe an...I am playing since the servers opened in Europe and at that time we all were newbies with no mature economy to buy lowbie stuff.<br /><br />The first dudes with mounts were heroes to be watched in Ironforge. I even remember the very first mounted char I saw: a lvl40 gnome rogue in Stormgarde Keep.<br /><br />To come up with the 100 gold at 40 I had to farm thick leather from 36-40 and in these times getting 60 silver per stack was actually a good deal. There simply was noone around with enough gold to pay more.<br /><br />Prices were greatly lowered, but I think that on a new and empty server only the most goblinish players, i.e. NOT real newbies, will be able to buy a flying mount when they hit Outland.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-454180050871495542010-03-31T18:17:01.644+02:002010-03-31T18:17:01.644+02:00I don’t think ‘newbie on a new server’ is much of ...I don’t think ‘newbie on a new server’ is much of an issue. A nascent economy is way better than no economy, and well, a new player is new to everything. Someone who zips from 1-20 in two hours is not going to be mystified when it comes to coughing up 4g for a mount. Likewise, if it takes you two days /played to get to twenty you’ll have plenty of time for the economy to mature. <br /><br />A deserted server is another matter entirely. Imagine you call an electrician because your electrical wiring is sparking, and he drops off a fire extinguisher and leaves.<br /><br />It’s hard to imagine any developer being interested in fixing the economy for a deserted faction. A deserted faction with a healthy economy is just slightly less broken than a deserted faction with an unhealthy one.boatorioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08926881247708693340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-59233602994137472932010-03-31T17:36:14.868+02:002010-03-31T17:36:14.868+02:00Gevlon, I prefer the First option rather than the ...Gevlon, I prefer the First option rather than the third, let me tell you why:<br /><br />Blizz's goal (which I totally agree with) is that leveling shouldn't be an activity that <i>forces</i> you to group or interact with other players if you don't want to.<br /><br />At low levels, getting groups for quests, dungeons or using the AH should be entirely optional.<br />In other words: leveling is a single-player game, the MMO part of the game starts at level cap.<br /><br />Why? Because you should be self-sufficient for leveling, that is casual friendly, and intuitive.My pals call me SKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-31707717913651886412010-03-31T17:31:53.842+02:002010-03-31T17:31:53.842+02:00I generally do not agree since I do not think you ...I generally do not agree since I do not think you need a flying mount when you are level 60. However the silver and gold that are paid by quests do not have a steady curve upwards through the levels. The rewards are very small in old-world, are much larger in outland, and hardly go up at all in Northrend.<br />However, I think the game is more interesting that it isn't totally fair this way and that players who can't get 10 or more gold for a stack or briarthorn are out of luck. It is more interesting that some people have to struggle and suffer, and make their way without enough money. I would like to see mobs drop more currency in general so the whole economy doesn't depend so much on gold that originated from Northrend dailies. Of course that might encourage some more farming but you know what, I'd rather see some more people farming mobs for coins and less people doing the same dailies every single day, even if some of them are gold sellers. Maybe less lower-level people would not buy gold though if they could go out and kill bandits in Tanaris to make the money they needed. So that's my solution to this problem: increase the coins that mobs drop, especially in old-world. If gold farmers are monopolizing the pirate cove, gank them.Yagglehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15177750815584983551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-32096823942397997322010-03-31T17:04:54.349+02:002010-03-31T17:04:54.349+02:00I can't agree with a good portion of this post...I can't agree with a good portion of this post. Having recenely leveled not one, not two, but three characters from level 1 to mid 70s with a refer a friend bonus (making it faster than even normal) neither my wife nor I had any problems affording our spells or anything else we 'needed' for that matter. <br /><br />The big problem when a player can't afford these things is usually that they aren't auctioning items they should instead of vendoring them. They haven't bothered upgrading their bags to make sure trash doesn't go waisted, or they are simply waistful with their money.sonickathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07545800929649341910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-31262890449148167662010-03-31T16:35:14.159+02:002010-03-31T16:35:14.159+02:00there are already several quests that send you to ...there are already several quests that send you to the AH. or at the very least send you to seek other player crafters to trade directly.<br /><br />weak trolls blood potion<br />mithril tube<br />frost oil<br /><br />i didnt look these up so might be wrong but these are some i can think of off the top of my head.<br /><br />in vanilla gold was hard to come by. now that people level more quickly but low level drops were not increased i can agree it would be even more significant. we are lucky the game is dying and there is unlikely to be any new servers made.Antinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-34872265955377472702010-03-31T16:26:52.251+02:002010-03-31T16:26:52.251+02:00I would like to know how exactly your guildies are...I would like to know how exactly your guildies are leveling. I would assume for the project that they are trying to level as quickly as possible?<br /><br />Blizzard has a way for new players to get some serious cash, you just have to look for them. I started my first character in vanilla WoW, never had that much gold. Even at 60 my gold rarely exceeded 250 ish. I quit right before TBC came out, and rejoined for WotLK and noticed that getting gold mainly out of questing is insanely easy.<br /><br />From my experience as long as you stay in the quest hubs and try to finish all of the quests then you wouldn't have a problem getting gold. Also all of the used to be elite quests aren't anymore, but the rewards remain the same. The Jin'tha Alor(I believe that's the name) quests in Hinterlands give more than their fair share of rewards and a lot of gold and now it's completely soloable. I remember when it used to take a group of 5.<br /><br />When I came back for WotLK and leveled up a hunter I started outlands with around 512g, no auctions. Just vendor and quest. I knew nothing of a hunter and just bought tge skills I deemed usefull, and never spent money on anything but skills and repairs. And riding of course.JimmyKanenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-10058804428370190782010-03-31T16:21:14.838+02:002010-03-31T16:21:14.838+02:00If it really is that bad, that you can't sell ...If it really is that bad, that you can't sell any materials on the AH, you can still sell green quality weapons to vendors for decent cash at your level. <br /><br />Green weapons with a required level of 50 usually sell for 3-4 gold each. Selling quest rewards that you're not using can easily get you the cash required for most everything - it certainly isn't as bad as "I can't buy all my skills", unless you're grinding instead of questing.Fricasseehttp://www.gamingdiaries.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.com